The Nationals’ $350 Million Extension Offer Undersold Juan Soto

Amid a dearth of baseball news, the Nationals took a starring role this week, not only via the retirement of franchise cornerstone Ryan Zimmerman but also the report that before the lockout, the team offered Juan Soto a 13-year, $350 million extension. While we’ve now seen nine deals of at least $300 million in recent years — not to mention a report of a pending extension offer to Soto in the wake of Fernando Tatis Jr.’s $340-million deal last March — the price tag produced the usual sticker shock on social media, as well as incredulity given that the slugger declined it.
Via ESPN Deportes’ Enrique Rojas, the 23-year-old Soto confirmed the news, saying, “Yes, they made me an offer a few months ago, before the lockout. But right now, my agents and I think the best option is to go year by year and wait for free agency. My agent, Scott Boras, has control over the situation.”
The contract would have been the third-largest in baseball history, after Mike Trout’s 12-year, $426.5 million extension (which incorporated two years and $66.5 million from his previous deal) and Mookie Betts‘ 12-year, $365 million deal with the Dodgers. Unlike other recent offers from the Nationals — accepted ones (Max Scherzer, Stephen Strasburg, Patrick Corbin) as well as rejected ones (Bryce Harper) — the $350 million for Soto did not include any deferred money that would have reduced the value of that eye-opening figure. But for as sky-high as the amount offer may have been, it undersells a player who already has a claim as the game’s top hitter, and who continues to make strides towards Cooperstown. He’s due an even bigger payday.
During the pandemic season, Soto became the youngest player ever to win a batting title — not to mention a slash-stat triple crown — via his .351/.490/.695 (201 wRC+) performance. He followed that up with an MVP-caliber campaign in 2021, hitting .313/.465/.534 with 29 homers and making his first All-Star team. His on-base percentage and jaw-dropping 145 walks led the National League; the latter was the highest total by anyone not named Barry Bonds since 1999. Soto’s 163 wRC+ and 6.6 WAR both placed second in the NL; the former trailed only the MVP-winning Harper’s 170, while the latter was tied with Harper behind Trea Turner’s 6.9. By Baseball Reference’s version, Soto’s 7.1 WAR led NL position players by half a win.
By any measure, it was a stellar season as well as the continuation of a remarkable career that’s still in its early stages. Over the past three seasons (ages 20–22) Soto has hit .304/.440/.561 for a 159 wRC+, the last of which is the highest mark in baseball by 13 points. His on-base percentage is tops by 38 points, his slugging percentage in a virtual tie for second with Salvador Perez, behind only Nelson Cruz.
Eleven months ago, in the wake of the Tatis deal and the previous round of Soto extension rumors, I produced a table showing the latter’s career 151 OPS+ to that point ranked eighth among players with at least 600 plate appearances through age 21. Both he and Tatis are still keeping Hall of Fame company through their age-22 seasons as well:
| Rk | Player | Years | PA | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS+ | PA After 22 | OPS+ After 22 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Ted Williams+ | 1939-1941 | 1944 | .356 | .475 | .640 | 183 | 7848 | 193 |
| 2 | Mike Trout* | 2011-2014 | 2195 | .305 | .395 | .549 | 167 | 3465 | 182 |
| 3 | Stan Musial+ | 1941-1943 | 1286 | .342 | .415 | .533 | 166 | 11435 | 158 |
| 4 | Ty Cobb+ | 1905-1909 | 2491 | .338 | .380 | .459 | 163 | 10612 | 168 |
| 5 | Juan Soto* | 2018-2021 | 2003 | .301 | .432 | .550 | 160 | — | — |
| 6 | Fernando Tatis Jr.* | 2019-2021 | 1175 | .293 | .369 | .596 | 160 | — | — |
| 7 | Jimmie Foxx+ | 1925-1930 | 1976 | .339 | .434 | .599 | 159 | 7701 | 164 |
| 8 | Albert Pujols* | 2001-2002 | 1351 | .321 | .399 | .586 | 154 | 11339 | 143 |
| 9 | Eddie Mathews+ | 1952-1954 | 1875 | .279 | .384 | .560 | 153 | 8226 | 141 |
| 10 | Rogers Hornsby+ | 1915-1918 | 1666 | .307 | .365 | .444 | 150 | 7815 | 180 |
| 11 | Tris Speaker+ | 1907-1910 | 1367 | .312 | .369 | .434 | 150 | 10653 | 158 |
| 12 | Eddie Collins+ | 1906-1909 | 1081 | .318 | .376 | .421 | 150 | 11006 | 141 |
| 13 | Mickey Mantle+ | 1951-1954 | 2203 | .296 | .391 | .505 | 149 | 7707 | 179 |
| 14 | Mel Ott+ | 1926-1931 | 2644 | .322 | .420 | .555 | 147 | 8704 | 158 |
| 15 | Joe DiMaggio+ | 1936-1937 | 1360 | .335 | .382 | .624 | 147 | 6312 | 157 |
That’s 11 players and counting in Cooperstown, with Trout and Pujols en route as well, leaving only Tatis and Soto, the latter of whom ranks fifth in PA among this group. We’re not talking borderline Hall of Famers, either. Nine of the 11 rank among the top 20 in OPS+ among players with at least 7,000 PA; all of them, even the Splendid Splinter, actually improved after their age-22 seasons (and the Williams comparisons aren’t off base). The other three stragglers who have met that threshold rank among the top 50 in OPS+, and, in a remarkable coincidence, each ranks second in JAWS at his position despite their offensive declines. The baker’s dozen besides Tatis and Soto have averaged 8,679 PA over the remainder of their careers, with a median OPS+ of 158.
Speaking of JAWS (and WAR), Soto’s not as high on the through-22 WAR leaderboard due to his below-average defense at both corner outfield spots, though he was in the black in both UZR and DRS last year, his first full season since moving from left field to right. His 17.6 bWAR merely ranks 21st, exactly 10 WAR behind Trout, while his 17.7 fWAR ranks 16th; the top 20s for both stats contain more Hall of Famers than misses, even without counting Trout.
Even without placing in the upper reaches in either flavor of WAR thus far, Soto projects as a future Hall of Famer whose performance over the life of the proposed contract would be worth something in the ballpark of half a billion dollars (not that you can build a state-of-the-art ballpark for that little money anymore). That valuation is based upon Soto’s ZiPS projection for the remainder of his career, which Dan Szymborski helpfully provided for this piece:
| Year | BA | OBP | SLG | AB | R | H | HR | RBI | BB | SO | SB | OPS+ | DR | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2022 | .306 | .445 | .570 | 532 | 117 | 163 | 35 | 117 | 134 | 108 | 12 | 169 | 0 | 7.1 |
| 2023 | .303 | .449 | .573 | 518 | 117 | 157 | 35 | 117 | 139 | 110 | 12 | 172 | -1 | 7.1 |
| 2024 | .299 | .448 | .572 | 512 | 116 | 153 | 35 | 116 | 140 | 112 | 11 | 171 | -1 | 6.9 |
| 2025 | .297 | .449 | .569 | 499 | 113 | 148 | 34 | 112 | 139 | 112 | 11 | 170 | -1 | 6.7 |
| 2026 | .295 | .448 | .561 | 485 | 109 | 143 | 32 | 106 | 136 | 105 | 10 | 168 | -2 | 6.3 |
| 2027 | .294 | .446 | .553 | 470 | 103 | 138 | 30 | 101 | 130 | 98 | 10 | 166 | -2 | 5.9 |
| 2028 | .290 | .439 | .534 | 455 | 96 | 132 | 27 | 93 | 122 | 92 | 9 | 159 | -2 | 5.2 |
| 2029 | .283 | .428 | .511 | 438 | 88 | 124 | 24 | 85 | 112 | 86 | 8 | 150 | -3 | 4.3 |
| 2030 | .279 | .418 | .492 | 419 | 80 | 117 | 21 | 77 | 100 | 78 | 7 | 143 | -3 | 3.5 |
| 2031 | .274 | .405 | .467 | 398 | 71 | 109 | 18 | 69 | 88 | 68 | 6 | 133 | -4 | 2.7 |
| 2032 | .269 | .389 | .447 | 376 | 62 | 101 | 15 | 60 | 75 | 59 | 5 | 123 | -5 | 1.8 |
| 2033 | .261 | .373 | .414 | 348 | 53 | 91 | 12 | 51 | 63 | 51 | 3 | 111 | -6 | 0.8 |
| 2034 | .256 | .360 | .381 | 320 | 45 | 82 | 9 | 42 | 52 | 43 | 2 | 99 | -7 | 0.1 |
| 2035 | .252 | .345 | .362 | 254 | 33 | 64 | 6 | 30 | 36 | 32 | 2 | 90 | -7 | -0.5 |
| 2036 | .246 | .335 | .337 | 175 | 21 | 43 | 3 | 19 | 23 | 20 | 1 | 81 | -6 | -0.7 |
| Ages 23-37 | .285 | .422 | .509 | 6199 | 1224 | 1765 | 336 | 1195 | 1489 | 1174 | 109 | 145 | -48 | 57.4 |
| Thru Age 22 | .301 | .432 | .550 | 1612 | 337 | 485 | 98 | 312 | 373 | 352 | 32 | 160 | -6 | 17.7 |
| Total Thru 37 | .288 | .424 | .517 | 7811 | 1561 | 2250 | 434 | 1507 | 1862 | 1526 | 141 | 148 | -54 | 75.1 |
The proposed contract would have covered Soto’s 2022-34 seasons (ages 23 through 35), during which he’s projected to produce 58.4 WAR; at my request, the above includes the tail end of his career so as to illustrate what his final numbers might look like. The hit and home run totals eyeball as a bit less than automatic tickets to Cooperstown, but the only players with a 148 OPS+ across 7,000 or more PA who aren’t enshrined are either players with links to performance-enhancing drugs (Bonds, Mark McGwire, Manny Ramirez), those still active (Joey Votto), and the unjustly snubbed Dick Allen. For players with at least 75 career WAR, the story is similar, with only Bonds and Alex Rodriguez out due to PED stuff, Pete Rose out due to lifetime ban for gambling, Pujols and Adrián Beltré waiting their turns as future inductees, and 19th-century star Bill Dahlen (75.2) and the terminally underrated Lou Whitaker (75.1) — Era Committee candidates waiting for the traffic ahead of them to thin — the other misses.
It’s impressive stuff, though if you flip back to last year’s piece, you’ll see that Soto’s projection is considerably more conservative than the pre-2021 one:
| Year | Age | PA old | WAR old | PA new | WAR new | Change |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2022 | 22 | 628 | 7.0 | 666 | 7.1 | +0.1 |
| 2023 | 23 | 635 | 7.5 | 657 | 7.1 | -0.4 |
| 2024 | 24 | 634 | 7.4 | 652 | 6.9 | -0.5 |
| 2025 | 25 | 632 | 7.5 | 638 | 6.7 | -0.8 |
| 2026 | 26 | 628 | 7.5 | 621 | 6.3 | -1.2 |
| 2027 | 27 | 611 | 7.1 | 600 | 5.9 | -1.2 |
| 2028 | 28 | 593 | 6.5 | 577 | 5.2 | -1.3 |
| 2029 | 29 | 570 | 6.1 | 550 | 4.3 | -1.8 |
| 2030 | 30 | 547 | 5.5 | 519 | 3.5 | -2.0 |
| 2031 | 31 | 498 | 4.6 | 486 | 2.7 | -1.9 |
| 2032 | 32 | 453 | 3.6 | 451 | 1.8 | -1.8 |
| 2033 | 33 | 412 | 2.5 | 411 | 0.8 | -1.7 |
| 2034 | 34 | 375 | 1.6 | 372 | 0.1 | -1.5 |
| Totals | 7216 | 74.4 | 7200 | 58.4 | -16.0 |
What happened? A few things. First, while Soto did exceed last year’s projection for 6.3 WAR, the shape of his production was different than anticipated, as he fell significantly short of the forecasted 37 homers and .595 SLG, and derived a larger chunk of his value from defense. All of that has longer-term ramifications for his projections; his home run total through 2034 drops from 553 to 425, and his slugging percentage, OPS+ and WAR take significant dips as well.
As Dan explained to me, Soto being a little older makes his projection a little more certain than before. “Since ZiPS sees little chance of a performance drop-off, pretty much any year he only matches the projection, that ceiling comes down a bit,” he wrote.
Second, Dan has recalibrated his system’s long-term projections based on returns that go back to his 2010 projections. His model is now a little more conservative in terms of both playing time and performance over longer periods, even for superstars. “ZiPS was overrating them a bit in very long horizons,” he told me. Even so, Soto’s playing time is pretty consistent across the two models, though his value is down by a win or two per year. That’s still Hall of Fame production, and the number eight ranking in JAWS (75.1/47.0/62.1) among right fielders, between Al Kaline and Reggie Jackson. Not too shabby.
As for the dollar value attached to that production, using a starting point of $7 million per win and a mere 2% annual growth, ZiPS values those 13 years at $483 million. That figure includes estimates of $16.9 million, $23.6 million, and $35.9 million for Soto’s three years of arbitration eligibility. Each of those salaries would break records at those levels; Cody Bellinger set the first-year record at $11.5 million in 2020, with Betts claiming the second- and third-year records at $20 million (2019) and $27 million (2020), respectively.
Particularly at a time when the owners have locked the players out and are presenting collective bargaining agreement offers that would continue not only to tamp down payrolls but to maintain teams’ abilities to significantly underpay players during their pre-free agency years, the possibility of Soto receiving every dollar’s worth of those estimates feels remote. Still, they help to illustrate why the slugger and his agent would bet on going year to year rather than lock him in at $350 million, because even given a more conservative estimate of his career path than we’ve seen before, there’s a very reasonable chance that his performance will be worth significantly more than that staggering amount — a manifestation of that same confidence that fuels his inimitable post-pitch shuffle. Even if Soto doesn’t sign a long-term deal until he reaches free agency, he has a very real possibility of signing baseball’s next $400 million contract.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
What an enjoyable article. Just sent it to a friend of mine.
Thanks Jay!
Man, I dunno. He’s worth more, sure, but also still three years from free agency. That’s a lot of risk to take on for an extra 15%.
Extensions usually work for both sides because it trades upside for security. In this case he would have nearly maxed out both. He could very well get 400. He could also very well get 300. He could also break both legs and not even get close to that. Him turning it down will probably net him more money but there are some serious downside scenarios that he has to navigate as well.
While I agree it’s a wash, wouldn’t you imagine he has some sort of insurance on future earnings too ala Scherzer?
For once I agree with you, not to mention I always like to see a player stay with the same team throughout their whole career.
The question isn’t weather there’s a risk of injury during his career, but the risk of injury before he becomes a free agent at 25 in just three seasons of play. For a careful playing, offense first player, that’s so young, I can see why the odds favor free agency.
Risk tolerance is personal, but I’d be a lot more concerned about the downside of 360m career earnings to 12m than the upside from 360 to 450 or whatever.
There are a lot of things that can happen off the field to anyone. I don’t want to list all the depressing examples.
I’d feel better about the big bet on free agency if he hedged it by selling the arb years for 50-60m or whatever. I suspect the Nationals would go for it. Teams love cost certainty.
I agree. Everybody deserves whatever they can get and whatever they are worth, especially people at the very top of their profession, but are the next 60 or 70 years of his life really all that much different if he makes $350M or $500M by age 40? On the other hand, if he has a catastrophic accident in the next couple of years, his life is a lot different if he only makes $15M or $35M and is tragically done before he turns 25. Especially if he has chronic medical issues from whatever hurts his income potential. I would be sorely tempted to take the $350M guaranteed, without deferred money, and then never worry about money again.
Although, as others have pointed out, he may have an insurance policy to protect him from that sort of financial disaster.
I’m pretty confident that they’re seeing the math on this in relation to Bryce Harper’s contract. Harper signed a 13 year deal for a little bit less than this when he was something like 26. Soto is 23 now. If Soto hits the free agent market after he goes year to year and is roughly the same player he is now, he’ll have made $70M in the three arb years and then it’s hard to imagine he gets less than Harper, which was $330M. That would put him at $400M, $50M ahead of just taking the deal now. And there’s upside for more, if he hits another gear, if salaries increase more, if the luxury tax is raised, if another couple owners decide they really want another ring before they die, etc.
Of course the “if he is the same player now” thing looms really large. It’s more or less true that almost everyone who has been a 6-win type player at age 23 and earlier has continued to be like awesome through age 27 or so and sometimes later (Stanton, Machado, Harper, Mattingly, Griffey Jr., Pujols, Trout, Frank Thomas, Evan Longoria, David Wright, etc) which would take him through free agency. So the risk is pretty low. But it’s still there. Cody Bellinger put up a nearly 8 win season at 23 and he was below replacement at 25; he has had a ton of injuries that might be chronic. We don’t talk about Kal Daniels anymore, because his knees gave out. Mike Greenwell and Yasiel Puig flamed out pretty early. He’ll probably be fine, but wouldn’t it be nice if he didn’t have to worry?
the other thing that I don’t think we’ve adjusted to is there are no late 20s peaks anymore. guys are as good as they will ever be at 23 because of various changes in player development etc. We used to have an idea that like a young Arod type mega prospect/star would keep getting better – and they sometimes did
I agree with all of that,but that isn’t really my point.
In terms of lifestyle for him and the next three or so generations of Sotos, the difference between taking this deal and hitting his earning ceiling isn’t nearly as big as the difference between taking this deal and being in a career ending auto accident next week. This deal limits his downside much more than waiting for free agency augments his upside. There isn’t a whole lot of difference between being worth $300M and $500M, but there is a huge difference between being worth$300M and $25M.
72 cents on the dollar vs the forecast… he should take that all day long.
I truly believe that no single player is worth more than 400 million because of injury risk, in a sport where contracts are 100% guaranteed.
Good thing Juan Soto is a god, not a player. 😀
yes, but in all honesty injuries exist and are common. there’s also probably a lower bar to players missing time than in the past, while being overall much better conditioned . mike trout has not played in more than 140 games since Obama was president.
“mike trout has not played in more than 140 games since Obama was president.”
This is amazing (insofar as he has been incredibly productive and awesome even with limited playing time) and a little sad (in wondering what his career numbers would look like without the accumulated missed time along the way). Granted, just about every other (non-Ripken) player has similar gaps in their career.
Soto’s fun for many reasons, but he’s fun in this case because of how well I think he’ll age. He’s a subpar athlete and has maybe the greatest approach at the plate we’ll ever see. Lengthy contracts scare me except for the best of players, but when I think of 35 year old Soto I don’t think he’ll look all that different than 23 year old Soto
Do you mean “superb” rather than “subpar”?
From a pure athleticism standpoint, subpar. In this context, I mean that as a positive, none of his value is tied to speed or premium defense
i agree with this SO MUCH.
his approach, to me, makes him so much less likely to decline as he gets older.
Soto will age well because he is ridiculously ridiculously good. It takes longer to hit the ground when you fall off a 10 story building than a 2 story building, to use a crude analogy.
But I’m not sure there is much evidence to suggest that guys with his approach age any better, on average. In fact Eno wrote an article a few years ago where he found the opposite. Guys with no plate discipline age the best and guys with great discipline age the worst. There are all sorts of caveats of course but its a fascinating study.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/are-player-types-aging-differently-now/
I recall Bill James wrote 30 years ago in one of his Baseball Books that players with “old man” skills (basically slow with lots of walks) tended to age poorly. That wasn’t connected to any kind of study, but as a player comment (I think it was for Alvin Davis).
Google search finds an old Fangraphs article from Eno Sarris saying the quote is in the New Bill James Historical Abstract and was included in the passage about Tom Brunansky. Here’s the quote:
“The outfielders that had “old players skills” did in fact peak earlier and fade faster than the players who had “young players skills.” From ages 21 to 23 the two groups of players were equal in value, 614 Win Shares for the “Young” players, 615 for the “Old” players. But from ages 24-26 the players with “old” skills had 7% less value (1482-1379), and as time passed the gap widened steadily… from ages 31-33 they had 10% less value (1340-1207).”
So a fairly small difference that only applies to outfielders. And you have to buy into Win Shares which I’m not sure many people do. Would be interesting to look at the issue using WAR or wRC+.
The guy has to be a legit nightmare at the plate for pitchers…..his eye is incredible.
Ted Williams was so utterly ridiculous.
Ted Williams had 2.85 times as many walks as strikeouts in his career. Bonds was 1.66.
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Ted Williams had a career .482 on base percentage, despite only 39 HBP, or an average of only 1 HBP every 251 plate appearances.
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Ted Williams missed all of his age 24, 25, and 26 seasons, as well as all of his age 33 and 3/4 of his age 34 seasons to war service.
If we average the 2 years before and after both gaps and gave him credit for that average for those parts missed, here is the additional WAR he would have earned:
1941-1942, 1946-1947 average = 11.2 WAR per season
Additional WAR for 1943, 1944, 1945 = 33.6
1950-1951, 1954-1955 average = 6.7 WAR per season
Additional WAR for 1952, 1953 (prorated) = 11.7
Total additional WAR = 45.3
This would bring his career total to 175.7 for the most WAR by a hitter in history, and second only to Babe Ruth (pitching and hitting) all time.
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Additionally that probably adds about 150 dingers to his totals, which may be a tad conservative. And that’s 40 shy of the big fella.
Out of all the huge contracts given out, very few work for the team. I wonder when teams will realize that it’s just not worth it. If I was Soto I would have snapped the 350 mil, but of course, it’s Scott Boras.
and everyone loves them the day they are signed and we read about a 10+ year projection and cost per win projections. It’s a weird and long-standing feature of the baseball internet. I am in favor of the players making all the can. But in a pure market sense, especially given that teams employ various self imposed limits to their payroll, what percentage of these actually “work out” ?
I don’t believe that MLB is a pure market.
Its depends on how you define “work out” but most of them actually don’t wind up being that bad when all is said and done.
The ARod contract turned out just fine. Same with Buster Posey. I dont think you can really say much bad about the Cano contract either. The first Miggy contract was no problem (the second one not so much). CC Sabbathia, Derek Jeter, Verlander all worked out. King Felix as well (if you mash both his extensions together). Bryce Harper has been a 11 win player for the Phillies over the first 2 years of his deal when the Phillies where only playing him 36 million total (I’m ignoring 2020 because I dont want to do the prorated math haha). You could argue that he has already lived up to that contract not matter what happens going forward.
People get hung up on guys being replacement level in the last couple years of the contract and forget that they put up like 20+ fWAR in the first 3 years of the contract.
Exactly. There is continually way too much focus on the back half of deals, ignoring the fact that guys like Harper are outperforming his contract now.
Yes that is part of it. But it seems like objectively a 0.0 WAR 25 million dollar player is more damaging to a team than a 8.0 WAR player is valuable. Also in a financial /contract valuation sense the surplus value has been banked but seasons themselves are wholly isolated discrete events. And like other than “brand equity” or some other concept the value created in the past doesn’t mean anything in the present. And in other fields, that isn’t the case. Like an engineer that has created value for a company in the past, that value is in some sense more enduring years later.
“But it seems like objectively a 0.0 WAR 25 million dollar player is more damaging to a team than a 8.0 WAR player is valuable.”
Objectively? Or the opposite of that?
I would love to hear you argue that Bryce Harper has already been worth his $330MM contract. That’s a weird thing to say.
Well I didnt say he has been worth it. I said he is already been so valuable that its hard to imagine he doesnt live up to it. And its not even a tough argument to make, really.
The avg cost of a win on the free market is ~$8 million. So Harpers 11 wins would have a value of $88 million. The Phillies only paid him $36 million for those 11 wins though. So Harper has already exceeded the value of his contract by ~60%. The Phillies are “up”, for lack of a bettter term, $52 million dollars. Its hard to imagine any scenario where Harper is so bad over the next 10 years that he gives that excess value back and then some.
Or if you dont like the hypothetical surplus value argument you can look at the actual comparisons. In 2019 Blake Trienin got signed for the same amount the Phillies were paying Harper ($10 million) . Treinen was a sub replacement reliever. Harper was worth 4+ wins. Then in 2021 Josh Donaldson signed for $3 million less than Harper ($23 million). JD put up 2 wins. Harper put up nearly 7.
You can also factor in inflation as well. Money now is worth more than the same money in 10 years. And the Philles are getting the most value when the money is worth the most (the early years of the contract). He is one of the best players in the game when he is also one of the best paid. But 8-10 years from now Harpers $25 million per year salary will be probably not even be in the top 20 salaries. So the value of his contract declines as he does as well. 20 years ago $25 million per year got you peak Arod for a decade. Now it gets you 31 year old Marcus Semien for 7 years. If Harper is a replacement level player in 2030 making $25 million when the top guys are making $50 million (or who knows more) its not a big deal. Especially if he was a 35+ win player the first 8 years of the contract.
That’s reasonable. Also not what you said. You used italics and everything.
You could argue that he has already lived up to that contract not matter what happens going forward
“Already” in italics for extra emphasis. No matter what happens going forward. Your words, verbatim, a couple inches up. I.e he never plays another game. It’s ok to restate your position, but that’s the opposite of your later explanation.
Oh yeah I mean italics are binding. Everyone knows that, it’s like a letter being signed in blood.
Italics aren’t binding, but he literally changed what he said.
That’s not what I said. I said he used italics for extra emphasis. Which he did. That’s not debatable. It’s an empirical fact. I have no bone to pick, but I’m not the one changing my words or saying I didn’t say what I said.
No, you are just the guy saying I changed what I said when I very obviously didnt.
Funny, because you sure invented one to pick.
Its not even close to the opposite. This;
and this
mean the same thing. No matter how hard you try to say they dont.
if you want to be completely ridiculous and say “what if he never plays another game!” so be it. But that is by no means a reasonable argument.
Please explain how Bryce Harper has already lived up to his $330 million dollar contract.
Either you’re saying he has “lived up” to the first two years of his contract, which is a meaningless statement in the context of the rest of your argument, or you’re saying he has, in two years, produced $330 million in value.
I’m not saying either thing. I’m saying he has already produced so much excess value its hard to believe his contract becomes a negative under any reasonable circumstances going forward.
Was pretty clearly stated. Not sure why a couple of you are having such a hard time with it.
>. so much excess value
What? That doesn’t make much sense. Overperformance in the first years of the contract are _expected_. For Harper to provide the full contract value he still has to accrue $250m of wins over the remainder of the contract.
That doesn’t happen in all kinds of reasonable scenarios.
See: injury or age-related decline
It makes perfect sense. Harper has already banked so much excess value he would have to absolutely crater for his contract to wind up a negative. And i’m not sure what it being expected has to do with anything. Of course its expected. That’s why they backload these deals to maximize the value up front when the performance is expected. Its the whole point. Being expected doesnt somehow make it less valuable. Thats a baffling argument.
Yes, and? That’s 31 wins (assuming the cost of a win doesnt increase, which is almost certainly will). You don’t think Harper will easily be worth an avg of 3 wins per year over the next decade? FYI, ZiPS projects him to be worth ~15 wins the next 3 years alone.
“You could argue that he has already lived up to that contract [not] matter what happens going forward.”
Your. Literal. Words.
So if Harper is injured and out of the game tomorrow, he’s already lived up to the contract? Or now you are saying that he has produced 31 WAR in excess of his salary over the first two years of his contract?
a huge 10 year contract for a 32-year-old superstar, or even 29-year-old, is simply a much worse deal than a huge 13 year contract for a 23-year-old superstar. they aren’t at all the same! soto’s more likely to get BETTER than worse… plus with inflation, in baseball and the broader economy, spiking like it is, $400M just doesn’t hit quite the same any more.
really cool to see the behind the scenes of ZIPS!
I think his early season ground ball trouble was something that he will figure out… so regarding that correction to his long term picture, I am actually going to take the over, which is pretty crazy cause thats an amazing projection.
Strongly agree. These are not good years to be forced to use as a stastical baseline. Obviously other eras have this issue too, but Ted Williams military service isn’t comparable to a pandemic shortened season. The tear down Nats are also a bad base – will they still be tanking next year too? Does that help or hurt Soto? My money is on hurt, but I would love to see analysis.
It feels like above average variance should be expected given both the paucity of comps and the unusual context of the years already played. And this year, without spring training or probably a full season won’t help.
regarding the “I think he should have taken the $350 m” comments: going to free agency is about more than just money. committing yourself to one place for 13 years is a lot to ask of anyone, much less someone who could go somewhere with a more exciting future than the nats.
That home run projection will skyrocket when soto signs with the yankees
The Nats have plenty of money and are willing to spend it. Their future looks bleak for the next year or two, but that leaves another 11. Also, the Yankees suck.
nats fan here. would love to see soto stay, would love to see the lerners pay, just don’t think its gonna happen.
but i would be happy for soto and happy for baseball for him to play in the biggest market and have actual fans and play in a cool stadium
Traitorous words! Soto should be NAT for life. Pay the Man!
One thing I took from this? Eddie Mathews was a beast and it’s more than a touch absurd he had to wait five years or so to get in the Hall. Incredible.
Soto as a Super-2 is entering his 2nd year of arb eligibility. You’re comparing Soto’s 2nd year of arb ($16.9M) with Cody Bellinger (also a Super-2) in his first year of arb ($11.5M)
As another Nats fan wrote in a previous discussion, just pay the man a half-billion. Sponge up some of the risk with insurance, I suppose. I was fine with seeing Harper go, but Harper’s near comps weren’t these guys.
I understand that the point of Fangraphs is to rationalize fandom. But this may be where I hit the limits of reason. Would an overpay of $11-15m per year hamstring this franchise for generations? Maybe. I doubt it. But I have a rooting interest.
Through their age 22 seasons:
Soto – 17.7 fWAR / 2003 PAs / 156 wRC+
Harper – 19.4 fWAR / 2143 PAs / 147 wRC+
From just an fWAR perspective, Harper and Soto are a total wash after their age 22 season. Soto flashes a more consistent bat, Harper was maybe more well-rounded with better baserunning and defense.
As amazing as Soto is let’s just post Harper’s line from his age 22 season one more time:
330/460/649 … 197 wRC+ … 461 wOBA … 42HR’s … 19% BB
Soto’s age 22 season:
313/465/534 … 163 wRC+ … 420 wOBA … 29HR’s … 22% BB
And Harper last two years had been what we always expected as well. I don’t think his story is done yet. His expected stats in 2020 were basically his mvp season. Then he wins another mvp. He is a no doubt hof player, and even though Soto seems to be trending that way, and a Williamsesque peak seems plausible, treating Harper like a bad outcome seems pretty silly. Every team in the MLB would be lining up to pay Harper 350m for 13 years at 22
What is just nuts is that Harper and Soto not only came up in the same organization, they were teammates – along with the only player ahead of them in fWAR last year, Trea Turner. Oh, and Anthony Rendon as well. It makes a Nats fan almost wish for the Reserve Clause. Holy mackeral, that’s a hell of a starting point for a lineup.
Of course, bouncing free agency also costs the Nats Max Scherzer and Patrick Corbin (a real contributor to their WS winning team). But I’m a fan, I don’t have to be reasonable!
I wonder how shifting to partial/full time DH’ing would affect his production (potentially improving his health and offense, and maybe lengthening the productive part of his career or smoothing the decline, like Edgar, Ortiz, etc)
DHing is hard to do and usually cost guys offense.
Multiple perspectives on this”
1. Due to the unknown, as an organization I wouldn’t sign any players to more than 5 or 6 years in total. So many things can happen, that it just doesn’t seem like smart business sense.
2. As a player if you get that type of long term offer, it is great for security reasons due to those unknowns, but then there is that chance of being tied down for that long and you might not want to me.
3. I’ve always viewed free agency in sports as a matter of where do you as the player want to work and live? Who do you want to work with and around?
4. Where you work and live should be about more than just the total dollar amount.
There might be a bit of principal-agent problem with Soto and Boras
in the opposite direction of Acuna/Albies and their agents.
Boras is rich/diversified enough where he can be as risk neutral as MLB teams and maximize expected value of his clients’ contracts.
Soto made $11M already and will get PAID during arbitration so it’s not like he needs to secure money, but chances of him making less than $350M in the next 14 years is certainly not negligible (say, >10%)
Soto was an MLB star at 19 and is already one of the league’s biggest names so I understand his confidence and wanting to bet on himself, but 3 years is not a short time for professional athletes.
Not to mention if $350M is the Nationals’ starting offer, Boras can probably negotiate it up a bit.
Does this mean I think Soto should have taken the extension?
Not necessarily.
Everybody has their own risk preferences and Soto knows his body better than anybody else.
But given everything, I think it is a reasonable good-faith offer from the Nats that deserves serious consideration.
There’s no reason to think he didn’t seriously consider it. Neither he nor Boras released a statement critical of the offer or of the Nats. Rather, he wanted to see how the market develops, which is his right (just as it’s the Nats’ right to offer him whatever they want independent of market value, since he’s not a FA). Not sure where your criticism of Boras comes from, but your initial assumptions might be off here.
I wasn’t suggesting Soto/Boras didn’t seriously consider it.
More of a response to some commenters who seem to think it is a lowball offer that should have been obviously rejected.
Agree. I think I would’ve taken it, or tried to push it up a little more and taken it. There’s an argument not to. It absolutely is not an insulting lowball.
Soto (206 BB%+ | 80 K%+) has walked more & struck out less relative to his peers than Ted Williams (190 BB%+ | 92 K%+) did through his age 22 season.
Tbf they can’t build just a ballpark anymore. They’re entertainment complexes that require much more land and taxpayer dollars.
What a player, hurry up and get to the Cubs
Hard not to think that the Nats leaked this as a precursor to justify a trade. It would obviously be good for baseball in DC and in general if the Nats kept him and spent that Lerner money to maintain a competitive team around him.
However, as a Rangers fan I would love to see them send a godfather prospect package over for Soto & an underwater contract (Stras or Corbin).
The Rangers entire farm system is not enough for Soto.
The entire system is enough. The Nats might even be generous and let the Rangers keep Bubba Thompson. It’s when we start messing around with comments like “oh, it wouldn’t be a good idea to give up both Jack Leiter and Josh Jung” that the door gets slammed in your face.
TIL mel ott had over 2600 mlb plate appearances before turning 23. wow.
I found the stat for WAR in 2021 to be interesting the the manner that Soto was between Harper and Trey Turner.
Imagine if Nats had kept them all.
Which begs the questions: Why didn’t they keep them all and win it all? (for $1.3B …lol)
After seeing Harper and Turner and Rendon and Scherzer go, why would Soto stay and wallow in loserland for 12 years?
There’s no way a team could afford that base….it shows how hard it can be to build a team, even if you had Dodgers/Yankees money. At some point, some players have to go, and you have to be able to replenish, or you’re eventually falter. It’s why the Tigers fell off….at some point you need your farm system to take on some of the load.
As much as it pains me to say it, because for the rest of us peasants, it’s ridiculous how much athletes make…..but knowing what elite baseball players make, I 100% agree. The moment I saw the offer, my first thought was he’s not accepting that, he’d be a fool to. Soto might be the best player in baseball given the talent and age. Taking the emotions out of the question, he was right to decline.
There is a price t which the certainty should outweigh the upside for the player. If I’m advising Soto, that price is closer to $450 for the next 13 years than $330.
I am now the biggest Soto fan. I so want him to rake and put these projections to shame and have his free agency just embarrass the idea that he’s only worth of $400M.
Soto’s a tremendous^2 hitter, no doubt, but the projection has 2031 as his last productive season, when he’ll be 32. Call it age 33 if you want a 33 yo DH who isn’t particularly productive. He doesn’t seem to be quite an AS-caliber player by 2029, his age 30 season as a DH who pops just 24 HR that year.
If you’re the Nats do you really want to make that player the centerpiece of your team, a player who’s very likely to be a DH or warrant that slot for the next decade and a half at the $400-plus million it’ll take to secure his services?
Seems an odd way to build a team that consistently contends, particularly when the Nats are so bad they rate to waste his next three seasons, at the least.