The Options for Replacing Corey Seager Aren’t Great
The Dodgers’ 2018 season has already seen its share of insult and injury, but Monday brought the coup de grâce: Corey Seager will miss the remainder of the year due to Tommy John surgery on his right elbow. His loss means that the defending NL champions, who have limped through March and April with a 12-16 record, will never get a chance to field their best lineup, with Seager alongside third baseman Justin Turner, who’s been sidelined by a broken left wrist since March 19.
Seager has had elbow problems since late August of last season, when inflammation limited him to pinch-hitting duty during an 11-game span that was part of the team’s dreadful 1-16 tailspin. Though he said that the injury bothered him more while throwing than while batting, he struggled at the plate for the remainder of the season and into the postseason; his absence from the team’s NLCS roster was due to a back strain, not the elbow. In the wake of an MRI taken at the beginning of the offseason, TJ surgery wasn’t considered as an option, and Seager spent the winter working on rehabbing and strengthening the elbow. He didn’t play shortstop in a spring-training game until March 7.
Seager aggravated his elbow making a pair of relay throws in a loss to the Giants, and an MRI taken on Monday revealed “a much worse” injury than before. “There was no gray area as to what the right decision was,” he told reporters. Given the typical nine- to 12-month rehab period for a position player undergoing TJ, Seager might have missed the entire 2018 season anyway if his November MRI had been more conclusive.
Seager started the 2018 season slowly, going just 10-for-51 with a homer over the Dodgers’ first 12 games, but lately his bat had come to life; he’d hit .340/.424/.540 in 59 PA over their past 14, the last six of which each included a hit. The Dodgers went just 1-5 in those games, however, slipping back below .500 after clawing their way above it. Despite outscoring opponents by 12 runs, the team entered Monday three games below .500 and seven games behind the first-place Diamondbacks. Their problems have been more on the run-prevention side than the run-scoring one: they’re yielding 4.43 per game (16th in the majors) while scoring 4.75 (10th), but that’s just one more reason why the loss of the 24-year-old two-time All-Star is such a devastating blow. Seager’s 15.5 UZR over the last two seasons ranks sixth at the position, and over that span, he’s been the game’s most valuable shortstop and fifth-most valuable player according to WAR:
| Rank | Name | Team | wRC+ | BsR | Off | Def | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Mike Trout | Angels | 175 | 13.7 | 121.9 | 0.8 | 16.5 |
| 2 | Kris Bryant | Cubs | 147 | 11.9 | 92.1 | 7.4 | 14.5 |
| 3 | Jose Altuve | Astros | 155 | 4.3 | 97.1 | -2.3 | 14.3 |
| 4 | Mookie Betts | Red Sox | 122 | 19.9 | 58.6 | 28.3 | 13.8 |
| 5 | Corey Seager | Dodgers | 132 | 5.8 | 57.9 | 28.2 | 12.9 |
| 6 | Josh Donaldson | Blue Jays | 153 | 2.4 | 79.1 | 3.9 | 12.5 |
| 7 | Joey Votto | Reds | 162 | -12.6 | 95.1 | -21.3 | 11.9 |
| 8 | Francisco Lindor | Indians | 115 | 5.6 | 31.0 | 35.2 | 11.5 |
| 9 | Jose Ramirez | Indians | 135 | 8.6 | 62.5 | 8.2 | 11.5 |
| 10 | Charlie Blackmon | Rockies | 137 | 4.9 | 68.4 | -0.5 | 11.3 |
While the Dodgers pride themselves on depth, there’s no easy way to replace a six-win player, particularly at a time when LA’s roster is already stretched thin by injuries. In addition to Turner, the lineup is currently without second baseman Logan Forsythe, who hit the disabled list on April 15 due to shoulder inflammation, and right fielder Yasiel Puig, who landed on the DL on Sunday after fouling a ball off his left foot (bruise, no fracture).
Internally, the Dodgers’ top option to play shortstop in Seager’s absence is Chris Taylor, who had started 25 of the team’s first 27 games in center field plus one at second base. A utilityman-turned-breakout player last year (21 homers, 126 wRC+, 4.8 WAR), Taylor entered Monday hitting .233/.273/.425 with four homers and a 92 wRC+, though he’d been hotter (114 wRC+) over the past two weeks. In 96 major-league games at shortstop, he’s been a hair above average (+1 UZR, +3 DRS). Kiké Hernandez, who had hit .254/.347/.476 with three homers and a 125 wRC+ through Monday, has done well within the small sample of 51 games at shortstop (+4 UZR, +8 UZR), but he appears more likely to take Taylor’s place in center field, with hot-hitting Matt Kemp (146 wRC+), Joc Pederson (140 wRC+), and rookie Alex Verdugo getting the bulk of the corner-outfield duty in Puig’s absence. Utilityman Breyvic Valera, a 26-year-old Venezulean who was recalled from Oklahoma City to take Seager’s roster spot, has 125 games of shortstop experience spread over eight minor-league seasons, but just four games there since the end of 2016.
General manager Farhan Zaidi acknowledged that the team could eventually look outside the organization to cover for Seager’s absence — and, of course, Manny Machado’s name came up. The Orioles entered Monday 8-20 and have no chance at re-signing the 25-year-old Machado, a pending free agent who’s in his first full season back at his natural position since reaching the majors in 2012. However inevitable a trade of Machado might be, it’s difficult to see the Dodgers acquiring him. Not only would they likely have to part with blue-chip prospects such as Verdugo and righty Walker Buehler for a short-term rental, but Machado’s $16 million salary would push them back over the $197 million competitive-balance tax threshold (they’re at $181.5 million (including benefits but not performance bonuses) according to Cot’s Contracts). That, in turn, would make whatever they do this coming winter, such as re-signing Clayton Kershaw (if he opts out) or pursuing Bryce Harper, much more costly, because as repeat offenders, their marginal tax rate would be 50% for every dollar over the threshold instead of 20%.
Among other potential free-agent shortstops, many of them — such as Alcides Escobar, Freddy Galvis, Adeiny Hechavarria, Jose Iglesias, Jose Reyes — are too light-hitting to rate as improvement on the in-house options, and the last of those has a domestic-violence rap against him as well. Elvis Andrus, who can opt out of the final four years and $58 million of his contract, is on the disabled list and has a $15 million AAV. Guys like Asdrubal Cabrera, Marwin Gonzalez, and Eduardo Nunez, who are no longer shortstops anyway, are playing for contenders, as is Eduardo Escobar. Jordy Mercer, owner of a career 88 wRC+, might fit the bill if the Pirates fade from their 17-12 start. More likely, Zaidi and club president Andrew Friedman will have to get creative if they’re to make a big move, and given the state of the rest of the roster, they may have bigger priorities.
As for Seager, in the long range he’ll probably be fine. The Tommy John Surgery Database lists just 15 major-league infielders as having undergone the procedure, ranging from Hall of Famer Paul Molitor in 1984 to T.J. Rivera last September. All but Rivera, who’s still recovering, and the legendary Erubiel Durazo (sigh) returned to the majors eventually; Durazo, a fringe major leaguer by the time he had the surgery in 2005, continued to mash in the minors and Mexico. For three of the others, the actual date of the surgery is unknown, and for one of those for whom it is (Zack Cozart), the surgery was on his non-throwing elbow. That leaves this set of comparables:
| Player | Team | Age | Pos | TJ Date | Return** |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Paul Molitor | Brewers | 27 | IF | 5/21/84 | 11 |
| Greg Colbrunn | Expos | 23 | 1B | 8/10/93 | 8 |
| Randy Velarde | Angels | 34 | IF | 4/8/97 | 13 |
| Tony Womack | Cubs | 33 | IF | 10/6/03 | 6 |
| Ray Olmedo | Reds | 23 | SS | 11/9/04 | 8 |
| Cesar Izturis | Dodgers | 25 | SS | 9/16/05 | 9 |
| Kelly Johnson | Braves | 24 | 2B | 6/1/06 | 10 |
| Xavier Nady | Yankees | 30 | 1B | 7/1/09 | 9 |
| Mike Aviles | Royals | 28 | IF | 7/7/09 | 9 |
| Rafael Furcal | Cardinals | 35 | SS | 3/13/13 | 15 |
**Months.
That’s not a lot of recent history — one player in the past eight years — but the average return time is just under 10 months, which for Seager would be during spring training of next year. The only two players from that list who took longer than a year were well into their mid-30s. Among players in the high minors who have known surgical dates on their throwing elbows and returned to that level — a set of constraints that reduces the sample size to four — the results run the gamut from Tyler Saladino (surgery 2014, eight months to return) to Miguel Sano (surgery 2014, 13 months), with the latter’s return time lengthened by the start of the season. Gleyber Torres, who was back in action after 10 months, had surgery on his non-throwing elbow.
The Dodgers can look to Seager for next year, but for the reeling squad, they’ll need multiple players to step up if they’re to right the ship and claim a sixth straight NL West title. The team began the year with an 85.2% chance at doing so, and a 94.0% chance of making the playoffs according to our preseason Playoff Odds, but by Monday, those numbers were down to 56.8% and 75.6%, and with the loss of Monday night’s game and their shortstop, they’ve fallen to 51.5% and 72.2%. Gulp.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
I’ll take a 722% chance to make the playoffs.
Oh, that it were.
🙁
Look at Trumbo, Look at Davis. You think Cingrani wants to play peppa with Machado? How many hotel mini bars would be affected if Kemp goes to Baltimore and 14 Mill plus half the remaining denominations? Also, If Verdugo can smack em down the left field line, then Buehler wouldn’t need his Slider as much. If you really stop to think about it then Hes brank in the FIP becus thrs four more Urias can blink ibn Sandy Koufax?
I can’t stop laughing at your last sentence. What did you say about hotel mini bars again?
I think the Serbian to Vietnamese to French machine might actually make this sound more coherent.
(I lol’d)
See Trambo, Davis. Can you play this game using Daddy’s Machadom? The number of small bars to reach if Kemp go to Baltimore and 14 million plus half the face value is left? Moreover, if Verdugo can attack on the left, it is not a scrollbar. If you really stop thinking about Branko’s time in Austin. Caccia to add four Urias PTH can throw his Koufak Sandi?
Was debating the Machado idea with a dodgers fan just this morning. What about including a contract to send back to the Orioles if the Dodgers want to stay under the luxury tax? Obviously, they would have to pay for sending money back with better/more prospects. Not sure what contract(s) they have to send back. Maybe Forsythe? Hudson? Kemp? Not sure how much they’re paying on Kemp after all those trades
Forsythe would be the obvious guy to send back. Kemp makes too much. Hudson is there for the minimum so moving him wont help them luxury tax wise. Grandal and Ryu are producing too much to dump
why exactly would the O’s take Forsythe?
Because the Dodgers could pay the O’s for taking Forsythe’s money by adding another prospect. The O’s would be buying a prospect
To get a better prospect haul. I mean, he’d play the infield which is useful I suppose, but by helping the LADs to stay under the luxury tax penalty … that’s worth something. something = better and/or more prospects
Yeah, Forsythe is the obvious option because he could potentially take over 3rd base, sliding Beckham back to shortstop. But it would be truly hilarious if the Orioles decided (in true O’s fashion) that outfield defense didn’t matter and took back Kemp and a good chunk of his salary instead.
.
Matt Kemp and Corey Seager to the Orioles for Manny Machado, Dylan Bundy and Kevin Gausman.
.
Do I misunderstand how trades work, or would the Orioles have to agree also?
I thought it was lopsided from the D’s POV at first since super-teams don’t trade 3 years of 6-win players. But the O’s would be giving up 4 years of a 3-win arm (Bundy), 2 years of a 2-win arm in Gausman, and 1 year of 5-win Machado. I’d still rather have Seager and Kemp, but it’s closer than I thought.
You’re misassessing both sides of the deal. Gausman has 5.5 fWAR over the past two years (6 bWAR) and is entering his prime. Plus put him on any other team than the O’s and he probably will be better because all pitchers seem to be. Conservatively, it’s more like two years of a 3-win arm.
Bundy is 25-years old and projected to finish at roughly 4 fWAR this year, and that’s assuming he regresses a bit and we’re not just seeing a breakout.
We don’t know if Seager is a 6-win player, and we don’t know if you get three years of him. Not everybody just bounces back from arm surgery and is exactly the same. There’s some degree of risk there that you have to account for.
Kemp, even with his little resurgence, is vastly overpaid and is a net negative asset.
There’s nothing close about this trade.
Considering how much Machado makes ($16 million), the Dodgers would need to send out Kemp’s contract. But that means paying even more in prospects to get a team to take on Kemp’s deal. I cannot envision this FO paying for Machado + to offload Kemp’s salary. That would likely enter Verdugo-level conversation in prospect value.
Couldn’t the O’s just eat part of the salary and get the better prospect haul? Why add a player?
Yes. I’m a bit confused why everyone is asking about sending back contracts and also why you are being downvoted. Teams often eat part of a player’s contract when they trade him. It’s of course functionally all the same–whether they pay part of Manny’s contract or take a bad one back, they would want additional compensation. But the O’s are under their payroll of years past and should have the flexibility to do so if that’s the only thing holding up the deal.
Owners don’t say, “oh, what the heck, I’ll pony up $10 million to take a bad player (Kemp) because my payroll is less than prior years.” That $10 million comes directly out of his profits. He isn’t paying it just because his payroll is lower than before.
That’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m saying two things. First, an owner will generally be willing to pay $10 million to take a bad player if he gets back a player with more than $10 million in excess value. So you take Kemp back if it gets you a prospect you expect to produce, say, $20 million in value. Second, even though it’s an uncapped league, teams seem to nonetheless have some semblance of an internal budget. So that $10 million needs to fit within the budget, even if it will bring back future excess value. In the Orioles’ case, it seems likely they have $10 million within the budget because they are below recent payrolls (although you never know for sure).
Well the Os also just could send cash with MM without taking back a dead weight.
And as of today, the D-Backs are now projected to win the division (by one game).
The Dodgers are now toast. With Kershaw leaving they have a very small chance of getting back to the World Series around 2048.
I was thinking my comment illustrated the problems with treating pre-season projections as gospel, but apparently you disagree.
We may see the ultimate “let’s point and laugh” moment if the Dodgers refuse to trade for Manny Machado. Standing proud and refusing to exceed the luxury tax threshold which they can certainly afford will cause them to lose the division and a very lucrative playoff spot, all in Kershaw’s shadow of his opt out deal.
The Diamondbacks have the best run differential in the league, and the non-Dodger NL West is even better than it was last year and that season had three playoff teams. Now they’re out their two best position players from last year in addition to their bullpen ace pitching like a AAAA player.
I understood their plan of staying under the threshold in order to spend bin in the off-season… but not adapting to realities is a fool’s game. They’re behind three teams in the standings, are out their two best position players, their best player will hit the open market where you’ll have a very motivated Yankees, Cubs, Phillies teams bidding on him. Adding an MVP-caliber player to a spot where they now have a gaping void is the only should be self-explanatory. Last year, the Dodgers did the right thing and got a hired gun in order to push them towards the elusive championship. Now they have to do the same thing just to make it to the NLDS. It will be painful but absolutely necessary to pay the luxury tax this season and the hiked up tax next season but cutting off the nose to spite the face and sitting on prospects and money is silly when the motivations have now become well apparent.
I think these next 8 games will say a lot. If the Dodgers go into the tank here with 5 with Arizona along with 3 with San Diego- if they’re 10-11 games back of Arizona and the Wild Card gap has balooned up to 8-9 games- I don’t know what the Dodgers would do. Do they make a move with the hopes of being able to get back in the race maybe? But if they’re back within 5-6 of Arizona after these 8(which is possible) I think they really would be forced to consider the move a lot more…..
‘We may see the ultimate “let’s point and laugh” moment’
We already did. Yu Darvish, 2017 World Series. 0-2, 21.60 E.R.A.
Biggest choke ever.
As long as you don’t point at your eyes while laughing.
Miguel Sano had Tommy John surgery in 2014. Missed the whole season, seemed to not affect him too much when he came back.
Or I could have read more closely and noticed that you mentioned him. Nevermind me, carry on.
Up to this point, Baltimore has not seemed to care about the inevitability of losing Machado while showing zero return him. This could be, if not the last, their very best opportunity to walk away with some value. They have some leverage, and IF they’re not unreasonable (as they have been until now) they could certainly get one top prospect from LA for him, or two good ones. But the Dodgers’ history suggests they won’t completely open the vault for him, either.
RIP Dodgers. Yu Darvish’s total choke killed their chances of winning a World Series in 2017, and now they won’t get back to the Series for at least another 30 years.
Moral: when you rent a pitcher for your one World Series chance in thirty years, make sure you pay enough to rent a solid one.
Jay, you were looking at the actual amount of the Dodgers’ 2018 payroll. If you click into the spreadsheet, there are two tabs, the second of which tracks estimated tax burden. Cots has the Dodgers at $181.5MM, giving them a little more space, and I believe they only assume a prorated portion of Machado’s salary. Assuming they trade for him halfway through May, that would be a $12MM hit and still leave them $4.5 million in space. That obviously cuts off flexibility for any other moves, so maybe they look to get the O’s to pick up some of the contract. Baltimore is said to be looking for an unreasonable prospect haul for less than one year of Manny, but perhaps if they kicked in cash, it would be enough to bridge the gap.
Very likely Jay was factoring in incentive and performance bonuses players on the current roster will earn with the most obvious receiving a considerable amount being Kenta Maeda.
Yes, despite my best efforts for accuracy and knowledge of that second tab’s existence, I originally cited the figure from the first tab. that gives them a little more room but still not much, particularly because the $181.5M figure doesn’t include potential earned bonuses. The Dodgers would still have to offload salary in order to fit Machado and make other upgrades. I remain convinced that they will not go this route.
I think the Dodgers should trade for Machado, maybe even including one of the blue chip prospects if they can get salary relief as well. They’ve been good for long enough that it’s easy to take for granted that they’ll be back next year, but 4/5ths of their rotation is on the wrong side of 30 now, as is Jansen. Wood is only 27, but he’ll be a free agent in 2020 and comes with injury/durability concerns. Turner is 33. Puig and Grandal will be free agents at the end of the year (as will Kershaw, but I’m assuming they’ll re-sign him).
I know they have a good farm system, and they’ll have a ton of money to spend in the offseason, but with so much of their core aging or approaching free agency, I think they should go for it. They’ll have enough free money that they can spend to build around Seager and Bellinger going forward. The current core has been among the best teams in baseball for five years, and bad luck in small postseason sample sizes is the only reason they don’t have a ring. There’s certainly no guarantee that their top prospects and future free agent signings will match (or even come close) to the production they’ve gotten from this current core.
Yasiel Puig isn’t a free agent until after the 2019 season. His contract is up after 2018 but is still under team control due to service time and thus will be arbitration eligible after the season.
Hmm, really? Spotrac says he’s an unrestricted free agent after this season: http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/los-angeles-dodgers/yasiel-puig-11575/
So does Fangraphs’ player page:
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=14225&position=OF#contract
Despite the downvotes, steelehere is correct – https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/04/yasiel-puig-hires-beverly-hills-sports-council.html
Spotrac is wrong about Puig.
Seems like solution of Taylor at SS + more time for Joc Pederson/Kike/Verdugo and let’s not forget ANDREW TOLES is the best way to go.
Its a great opportunity to finally give Joc a shot — folks don’t realize it, but the Dodgers have never given steady looks against LHPs, for his career (3+ seasons) he’s only got 270PA. Travesty to player development…
He’s got a career .262 wOBA and 63 WRC+ against lefties and the Dodgers have plenty of options that can actually hit LHP. If the Dodgers, a team that wants to win right now, really wanted Joc to get those reps against LHP, it’d need to come in the minors.
Ugh….using the word “career” shows you’ve clearly missed the point.
Joc, once a consensus Top 100 prospect with 60 FV grade, has 1500 total career PAs and only 270 PAs vs LHP over 4+ seasons. The most he’s seen in a given year is 120PAs, and his splits weren’t terrible that year — 90 v 123 wRC. Point being, you can’t expect a player to develop against LHPs when they never get PAs….yet that’s exactly what the Dodgers have done.
For reference, Kike Hernandez who’s a platoon guy against LHPs has twice as many ABs against RHPs as Pederson does against LHPs and matching career splits. Yet he’s suddenly getting starts against RHPs in 2018.
if you choose to only look at the numbers that support your argument, it’s easy to “make a point” about anything.
I think you missed my point, which is that for a team that wants to win, like the Dodgers, you can’t throw a player like Joc, with objectively horrific numbers against LHP, out there against LHP because “development.” The use of the word “career” does not imply that he’s had a career’s worth of PAs in a split. But as dreadful as he’s been against lefties, you simply can’t keep rolling him out there until he meets a satisfactory threshold for decision making.
Also, Kike can play any position besides catcher, ergo, he gets more opportunities even against RHP.
I think the best move would be to promote Toles once he gets healthy and make him a semi-regular outfielder.
It’s the Story/Of a man named Trevor…
1. Desmond moves off 1B (lol) and (maybe) holds down SS until Rodgers is brought up.
2. All the while, McMahon finally gets the reps he deserves/needs at 1B.
3. Then after Rodgers is up, Desmond goes back to being Desmond.
And there you have it, my incoherent thought process. (And while I’m at it – I’d be curious to see how Arenado would fare at SS, too)
I could swear Greg Colbrunn played on the Expos, not the Nationals.
Alas, the TJS Database uses the three-letter Nationals team code retroactively for the Expos and I didn’t catch that in translating. Fixed.
Since Machado has already played 1 month of baseball for the Orioles, wouldn’t the Dodgers owe him $13.3M if he was traded today? The Orioles could also absorb part of the salary as well. It’s not an impossible trade.
Yes, the Orioles COULD take on some of Machado’s salary, or take on a contract from LA, but that wouldn’t come without an additional price from LA.
The Dodgers are $16M away from the luxury tax, but that’s not considering (as stated in the article) bonuses or benefits. That $181M only counts Kenta Maeda making ~3M. After projected bonuses, that could be as high as 8-10M.
What would it take for the Orioles to take on an extra $5-7M on Machado’s deal?
What about thinking outside the box and trading for Cesar Hernandez? The Phillies tried to trade him this offseason but didn’t find any takers. He’s on his way to a 5 WAR season this year, and that figure isn’t inflated by anything wildly unsustainable. He’s simply coming into his own as a player.
By upgrading the Austin Barnes/Chase Utley second base situation significantly, it might be much easier to accept a glove-first SS to hold down the fort.
You know who else is on his way to a 5 WAR season?
Chase Utley.
Chase Utley has something called chondromalacia (sp?) in his knees, and it’s a degenerative condition that can be managed, not cured. Unless something has changed, he can’t play a full season. So he could theoretically be a 5 WAR player, if he can play full-time for the rest of the season. Everything I’ve read indicates he cannot.
Who else would be interested in a rental Machado more than the Dodgers? Blue Jays? Cardinals? It would have to be a team near the end of a competitive window, and a need at SS, no? Why wouldn’t two of Verdugo, Smith and Alvarez for Machado and salary relief work for both teams? If not now then in July.
I wouldn’t describe the Dodgers as “near the end of a competitive window.” Even if Kershaw walks, which I doubt will happen, they still have the talent, resources, and creative front office to stay competitive.
The Dodgers are as likely as anyone this next off-season to break the bank open for Kershaw… So agreed, there’s no “end of a competitive window”.
I didn’t mean the Dodgers were at the end of their competitive window. I meant they didn’t have a lot of competition for Machado, because there aren’t that many teams who are at the end of their competitive window, and who need a SS. Sorry for the confusion.
The dodgers never had any middle infield depth, that is why they had to trade for Forsythe to begin with.
That is a disadvantage compared to the other nl juggernaut, the cubs.
A lack of middle IF depth is not the best place to miss depth, if you lack OF depth you can put someone who can hit there but in the middle IF that would hurt you.
I’m shocked that their odds of reaching the playoffs are as high as they are, because frankly, they are not.
I think this is a prime example of the disconnect between projections, and what you can actually see with your own eyes. If you watch the Dodgers, and Kershaw specifically you can see that he is not the same. You can see that Jansen is having a hard time locating the ball and has lost velocity. You can see that Alex Wood has also lost velocity and is continuing his decline that started late last season. You can see that two of their 5 best players to date were better a decade ago, and probably do not deserve to be starters in the MLB.
Look at the starting lineup.
Chris Taylor(R) SS
Chase Utley(L) 2B
Yasmani Grandal(S) C
Cody Bellinger(L) 1B
Joc Pederson(L) LF
Alex Verdugo(L) RF
Enrique Hernandez(R) CF
Max Muncy(L) 3B
Ross Stripling(R) P
That is not a good major league line up. That is a bad major league line up. The rotation is above average, but it is literally not without a question mark 1-7. I just don’t see it. Even if they are the 2nd best team in their division that doesn’t mean they will make the playoffs.
I don’t know that anyone considers Chase Utley or Matt Kemp two of the 5 best players on that team. If you knock out Seager, you’ve still got Bellinger, Turner, Puig, Pederson, Grandal, Taylor, and Barnes projected for more than the two of them combined from here on out (1.2 fWAR). And then for pitchers you’ve got Kershaw, Wood, Hill, Maeda, Jansen, Buehler and Ryu projected for more than 1.2 fWAR.
The main reason the Dodgers are projected this highly after Seager got knocked out is because (a) the projections can’t believe that Kershaw and Jansen have declined this much and (b) depth. It’s easier to argue against the first one (which you have done) than the second.
I’m saying to date, they are 2 of the 5 best players on their team.
I agree on the depth, they are deep. I think depth is important, but it won’t be as important vs a team that is better 1 thru 9
1 thing looking at the lineup, you wonder if the lefty problems come back some.
This may be a case of author not writing the headline, but how are the replacement SS options “not great” when the leading candidate put up a 126 wRC+ last year and is average to a tick above at the position? Sure, Taylor has had a slow start this year, but most teams would kill for that kind of up-the-middle depth.
Desperate times call for desperate measures:
Kemp, Rich Hill, Yadier Alvarez and Will Smith or Keibert Ruiz for Machado and Chris Davis.
– Dodgers stay under the cap for 2018, get another ~$17M of space for 2019, and then go up starting in 2020 when they won’t care since presumably they’ll make some big signings next year
– Orioles get rid of their albatross, and get a reasonably-priced (close to at-value) starter for 2018 and 2019 (who they could also potentially flip if he’s healthy at the deadline this year)
– Dodgers are so rich with catchers (Barnes under control for a few more years), they can afford to trade one of their 2 top catching prospects, and have a number of pitching prospects who have surpassed Alvarez (so they’re not trading any of their top prospects)
– LA’s starting pitching depth makes the loss of Hill (who must be really testing their patience anyway) bearable.
By my math, the Dodgers are trading assets worth about $10M or so. Davis is worth about negative $85M.
So LA would be paying about $95M for Machado, which is in the realm of what the O’s would expect to acquire in a more traditional “Machado for 3 prospects, one of which is a top-20 of 30 in MLB.”
Thoughts? It could also be expanded somewhat to include some bullpen help for the Dodgers. Only minor issue I see is that the Orioles are pretty high on Sisco and may not want a catching prospect in return. Then someone else with similar value could be substituted.
Adding either a premium to the Darvish-for-Calhoun trade or using Machado’s ~$30M Surplus this year (4.9 win zips forecast), a trade would be (in descending order of fairness):
1) Buehler (FV55 arm worth $22M) + FV40
2) FV50 Bat (Smith or Ruiz ) + FV45 (Peters or White) = $20M + $11M
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/valuing-the-2017-top-100-prospects/
O’s can throw in a little cash if necessary. Davis is not trade-able, so not sure why you’re proposing him.
Why isn’t Davis tradeable? I can’t find any details on his no-trade clause other than it’s “limited.” But even if LA is on it, there’s at least a chance he’d OK the trade anyway.
I was going off the same article for prospect values. But there’s no way the Dodgers value Buehler at only $22M (especially given that he’s had success in the majors already), and Balitmore is so stubborn and unreasonable with their demands that Machado is going to require a multiple of the ~$30M surplus value that he has for this year. And looking at most other big name “prospects for star” trades (especially midseason), the prospect value far exceeds the star’s surplus value.
The Dodgers have shown that they have very little intention of trading their best prospects, so taking on Davis is the obvious way.
But if you think they are overpaying by too much, they could include less in terms of prospects. Kemp and Hill for Davis and Machado without any prospects?
Neither the Dodgers nor any other team will take on Davis’ 5 year, $105M contract, that’s why he’s untradeable. He’s at -0.6 fwar after a 0.1 campaign last year.
I might be overestimating Machado’s value a bit by surplus value since he’s already accumulated 1.8 fwar, but I’ll stand by my trade estimates. Those are reasonable premia over the Darvish trade.
Any team would take on Davis’ contract if they get enough with him. We can debate whether Machado (plus getting rid of Kemp) is enough, but clearly there’s some point that it makes sense for the Dodgers and I don’t think it’s very far off. Of course, Baltimore’s not exactly known for being either smart or reasonable with either their money or players, so I’ll give you that it’s unlikely.
re: your trade estimates, look at any recent trade (Quintana, Chapman, Sonny Gray, and even Darvish), and then consider that it’s Baltimore who will demand more, and then consider that they’d be getting Machado for a much larger percentage of the season than in most deals like this. I think you’ll see the and the prospect return is much higher than what you seem to be implying it should be.
(And for the record, I think a package centered around Buehler would be reasonable, but that’s mainly because I think Buehler should be valued way more than $20M).
Two of the trades mentioned by Jon as supposed counterexamples weren’t pure rentals: the Cubs got 3.5 years of Quintana on a team-friendly contract and the Yankees got 2.5 years of Gray at arbitration salaries. The Darvish trade, as mentioned, implies a lighter return than Jon thinks for Machado.
The Chapman trade was criticized by plenty of commentators at the time, including by several at this site, as a big overpay by the Cubs not just by surplus value math but also relative to other observed trade returns that included an in-season premium (such as the trade package for multiple years of Miller at the same trade deadline). Maybe the Dodgers could be convinced to give up such an outlier trade package for Machado, but using Chapman as a comp is clearly picking an outlier deal, so it’s tough to base an argument on that lone precedent.
Yes, it’s possible to come up with surplus value math by which a team might take on Davis’ salary. The practical problem with that math, however, is that Davis’ negative value with this contract is so massive if he really is the near replacement level player that he’s been since the start of the 2017 season. It’s negative value that’s on the order of the positive value of players such as Sale, Eaton, and Yelich when each of those three was traded. So, look at those trade packages – either the major leaguer side or the prospect side – and imagine attaching something approaching those packages to Davis just to dump his remaining contract. In practical terms, it’s wildly unlikely that a team would give up so much value just to dump a contract.
If we think that the Orioles’ front office is reasonably smart and targeting a rebuild, then they’d just see Davis as a sunk cost and instead try to maximize the trade return for other useful major leaguers while realizing that they need to eat Davis’ money as almost their only true long-term contract commitment (Cobb is the only other, and he’s only owed about 60% of Davis’ remaining contract). If the Orioles are more optimistic about their outlook than outsiders, or more focused on player name recognition and PR than others think they should be, then part of that optimism (or overoptimism) has to be based on a much more positive view of Davis than recent performance would dictate. Either way, it’s tough to see any practical trade package that would move Davis with his contract.
Jed Lowrie? Yeah… Jed Lowrie.
Just goes to show, a $250 million payroll may not even be enough to provide enough depth to reach the post season.
So what exactly is wrong with what I said?
well for one, their payroll this year is only around $180 million dollars.
Kind of a silly premise. Setting the bar a little high, no? Could anyone replace a Corey Seager?
In fact, they are prob better set to replace him than most teams. Effectively it’s more Pederson, with Taylor sliding back to the IF to cover at SS.
And as some have mentioned, they can always make a play for Manny.
Give it a few weeks to see how the in-house options perform. If the Dodgers fall back further, then think outside the box and start selling! Trade Grandal to the Mets, trade Kershaw to whichever contender gives up the most prospects (and re-sign him in the off-season), trade Puig, and retool for next year. It’ll eliminate any chance for going over the luxury threshold, and will give them some top prospects.
There’s no way they’d do this – and if I was the GM, I wouldn’t do it – but it would be interesting to see how much their improve their future teams by doing this.
“Give it a few weeks to see how the in-house options perform”
1) Wait a few weeks and the in-house talent doesn’t perform, in an even bigger hole.
2) Wait a few weeks and the in-house talent does perform, but SSS, they ultimately aren’t very good and weeks to months further, still in a big hole
3) Wait a few weeks and the in-house talent does perform, and ultimately they are acceptable going forward.
I guess you’d have to come up with odds for these and weight it against the rewards and costs involved…
Yeah just in 2 days they’ve gone from 7 to now 9 games down on the divisional front and are now 5 games out of the 2nd wild card. Waiting a few weeks could put them 8-10 games out of the 2nd wild card. That’s the big risk in waiting much at all.
And yeah, it would be really interesting if they did fall out of things. They have quite a few guys that are last year of the deal that they could possibly trade. Grandal. Puig. Ryu.
Machado makes perfect sense. I am sure the Orioles would eat salary or take on a contract to offset the money for the right package.
In case you haven’t noticed Adeiny Hechavarria is a top of the lineup type of hitter for the hottest offense in baseball, and therefore worthy of at least a mid-tier prospect. Please so we can have Willy Adames time. Please, Andrew?
You would not believe how hard the media who are sympathetic to the Tigers are pushing for an Iglesias trade.
Adrian Beltre is great…
Edit: nevermind…