The Orioles Did Something, and Boy, Is Adding Corbin Burnes a Monumental Something

It just didn’t make sense. There was no way that the Orioles were really planning on heading into the 2024 season with so little top-end pitching. I’m not saying Kyle Bradish, Grayson Rodriguez, and company are bad, but they were on the lighter side of potential playoff rotations, and that made very little sense to me given the composition of the rest of the team. It’s not every day that I take a team to task for something they didn’t do, but this one was just too illogical.
It turns out that the Orioles agreed with me on that one. Thursday night, they acquired Corbin Burnes from the Brewers in exchange for DL Hall, Joey Ortiz, and a Competitive Balance Round A pick, as Ken Rosenthal, Jeff Passan, and Mark Feinsand first reported. You know it’s a big trade when all the news-breakers are sharing it.
Wow. That’s the first thing to say about this one. This is exactly the kind of high-leverage move that suits the Orioles as currently constructed, and it’s for the pitcher I would have chosen if I could get anyone feasibly available. Dylan Cease might be an ace. Burnes is one, right now, and he’s a huge addition to an already-excellent team. I’m excited just thinking about it.
As is normal for deals that involve multiple high-profile young players, Eric Longenhagen will have a separate article focusing on the return to the Brewers. For the purposes of this trade, I’m going to ballpark them as 1.5 top 100 prospects (Hall was always around the fringes of top prospect discussion, but never quite hit the big time before graduating, and he’s still prospect-y enough in my head despite that graduation). The Comp Balance A pick will fall just after the first round, where a draft pick is still hugely valuable; you can think of it as another solid prospect, per Craig Edwards’s helpful research.
The Orioles have operated in one consistent direction in their trades in recent years. They don’t lose the total long-term production side of the trade, ever. They swap low-likelihood prospects for rentals, or try to trade rentals of their own. It’s all been part of a grand design on their part: build the team up to a finely honed competitive edge centered around Adley Rutschman and Gunnar Henderson.
That was an incredible plan, and they executed it better than anyone could have expected. That was great news, and it was also a new challenge for a front office group that hung its hat on development and building for tomorrow. Now the Orioles aren’t a rebuilding project; they’re a contender. This year’s production is important in a way it simply wasn’t four years ago.
Trading for Burnes is a perfect encapsulation of that view. Burnes is going to be one of the best players on the Orioles, because he’s one of the best players in baseball. Per our projections, he’s the fifth-best pitcher in the game right now. This isn’t a high-risk/high-reward pitching trade, getting a guy and hoping to make him better. It’s the closest thing you can get to a one-year sure thing when it comes to pitchers, who are inherently risky.
That’s right: one year. Burnes will reach free agency after this year, and the bidding for his services will be fierce. He’s entering his age-29 season, and over the past three years, he’s in the top five for innings pitched, strikeouts, WAR, RA9-WAR, FIP, SIERA – pretty much everything except ERA, where he’s seventh. The point is, he’s a rental, and he’s going to sign a huge deal after this season.
That means that from a pure surplus value perspective – the savings a player provides a team relative to what it would cost to pay a free agent to do the same thing – the Orioles “lost” this trade. But that’s a dumb way of thinking about things. It doesn’t really say much about how trades and teams actually work. Still, it’s worth noting that the O’s haven’t done this kind of deal at all before now. They’ve always played the long game and racked up future surplus value in their dealings.
The truth is, though, the Orioles didn’t give up a lot for what they’re getting back. That’s no knock on Ortiz or Hall, who are both intriguing young players. Teams like the Orioles and Brewers both rely on a critical mass of players like them to contribute at the major league level while earning league-minimum salaries, followed by at least an arbitration year or two. That’s how you compete at the top of the league without hitting the top of the salary table.
But when you’re at the top of the league, you also need stars. The many-bites-at-the-apple theory of postseason success has merit, but postseason success is a lot more likely when you’re good. We remember plucky upstarts who charge to the World Series precisely because they don’t happen every year. And you just can’t raise your team’s level to that of the best in the game with a bunch of average players. Hence, the very best players are all “worth” more to teams than some dry accounting of dollars per win.
It would be one thing if Ortiz and Hall were the Orioles’ only shot at building a sustainable young core. But they’re not. They’re not surplus by any means, but they’re part of a deep and impressive group, in both the majors and the minors, that’s among the best in the game despite Baltimore having graduating a gaudy array of stars in the past two years. Hall was likely going to end up in the bullpen this year. Ortiz was the third-best shortstop in the system, and with competition coming from below; he wasn’t blocked, but he wasn’t essential either. The O’s system is still churning out more players than the team can credibly find playing time for at the moment, and that’ll likely be the case for at least the next few years. Their major league roster is already crowded and more bats are on the way.
Meanwhile, Burnes is a huge difference maker, guaranteed. He’ll improve our projections for the team by roughly three wins all by himself, a huge swing in a tightly contested AL East. This is one of only five years where the Orioles are guaranteed to have Henderson and Rutschman on the team at once. It’s not the kind of thing you should squander by ignoring present needs, and the Orioles didn’t. Their rotation could use a bit more depth now that Hall, who likely would have been the first man up if someone got hurt, is in Milwaukee. Another starter would be a welcome addition to the 2024 club, but they’ve done a lot to address the top end, which was the weakest link.
On Milwaukee’s side, the math looks a little different. Ortiz, Hall, and a solid draft pick wouldn’t do a ton to change the fact that Baltimore has an excellent crop of young players headed towards the majors. For the Brewers, the same isn’t true, particularly at the positions that Ortiz and Hall play. The Brewers graduated a huge group of outfielders to the majors, but their infield is comparatively unsettled and will get more so when Willy Adames hits free agency. They’re no longer a pitching-dominant team; Brandon Woodruff was already gone, and the various heirs apparent to him and Burnes haven’t panned out yet. Freddy Peralta is great, but the rest of the young core has been plagued with either injuries or inconsistency.
If you agree with the idea that Milwaukee needed to retool, the players they got back for Burnes make sense both for them and in the context of the market. Luis Castillo fetched more when the Mariners traded for him, but he was traded 1.5 years before reaching free agency, and the extra playoff run added to his return. Tyler Glasnow fetched less in trade, but he’s not as good as Burnes, so that makes sense. The deadline trades for Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer fit into the picture as well – more years, but less current production, and similar returns after taking the money exchanged into account. Top starters with a year or so remaining until free agency fetch good but not gamebreaking prospects; that’s just how it goes these days.
It sucks to trade Burnes when you could have had him this year, but let’s be real here: it would just be this year. The Brewers were never likely to agree to an extension, but that went off the table completely after after they took his arbitration case to a hearing last year, a process he called “very eye-opening.” And it’s a lot easier to see the fail cases in Milwaukee than in Baltimore; the Brewers don’t have the same kind of wellspring of talent, and their major league roster isn’t as good right now. Jackson Chourio is awesome, don’t get me wrong, but Baltimore just has so many young talented players, and their offensive veterans are no slouch either.
On the other hand, the Brewers get to play in the NL Central, which works in their favor. I mentioned earlier that the many-bites-at-the-apple theory of postseason baseball is too reductive, but it’s not wrong. It behooves the Brewers to build for sustainable success, especially given that they still have a good chance at the playoffs even this year thanks to playing in a soft division. To sustainably compete like Milwaukee does, you have to develop a lot of your own players, and I think the Brewers are being realistic in assessing that they’re a little light on that front at the moment.
We’re penciling Hall into Milwaukee’s rotation for the moment, which goes to show the kind of help they could use. He wasn’t one of Baltimore’s top five starters, and their pitching staff was hardly their greatest strength. The Brewers need young depth, and this is the best infusion they were likely to get. It hurts not to get Burnes for this year, but Milwaukee’s approach to payroll and roster building means it was going to hurt really badly in 2025 regardless, and I still think they’re neck and neck at the top of the division (in a three-way race, to confuse analogies) as currently constituted. They won’t be as good in the playoffs without Burnes, to be sure, but I think they’re getting enough future payoff in this deal to justify a step back now.
It seems weird to call a trade a win-win when the teams are both currently competitive. Doesn’t one have to be a loser? But I think this was a perfect reallocation of resources. The Orioles were wasting potential by having so many prospects blocked by their already impressive major league team. The Brewers needed prospect quantity and quality. The Orioles added more wins in 2024 with this deal than the Brewers lost because Hall will pitch more (and more important) innings in Milwaukee than he would have in Baltimore.
That’s about as both-sides-happy as it gets in baseball. And as an added benefit, though it’s early to know how this played into the decision, the Orioles are about to be under new ownership. Trading for Burnes will give them a year to decide if they want to start a new, higher-spending regime by adding one of the best players in baseball. If they do, they have that year to attempt to convince him to stay. Two weeks ago, I wouldn’t have mentioned this possibility; that’s not Angelos-era Orioles reality. But it’s a nice tailwind to an already very nice trade on both sides.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
As an Orioles fan, I’m thrilled about this move even if Burnes isn’t quite as good as he used to be. I just don’t believe Hall will ever develop the command to remain a starting pitcher, but at absolute worst he will be a dominant left-handed reliever. Meanwhile, Ortiz was obviously blocked in Baltimore, but he has a great glove and enough bat to be a high floor regular. It should end up being a win-win for both clubs.
Agreed on this being a win-win. If Milwaukee was willing to spend on their roster like a big market club I might feel differently, but this is how they have to operate given that they don’t. One year of Burnes for 12 years between two guys that are ready to contribute is smart for them.
No way. Terrible return for Corbin Burnes. What did they get in Ortiz ?? What can he really do ?? I’ll tell you. He is excellent defensively. Power is decent not good. Projected as a .250 to .260 hitter. And get this…he is 25 turning 26 years old !!! He is NOT young. The key is DL Hall who has a high ceiling but is a serious injury risk with a walk problem. If I’m a Brewer fan I’m furious.
It’s 12 years, 6 of which are practically free, for one year and the brewers aren’t serious contenders this year, it was obviously worth it for them.
But they were serious contenders this year if they had kept Burnes! Now, not so much, and even if they do win the division, they aren’t likely to go anywhere in the playoffs without Burnes.
I think they should’ve gone for it for one last year before needing to take a large step back next year, which they’ll still need to do anyway.
LOL, a funny thing to complain about is age as a “small market team”. Your team is going to move on from “player X” after they become expensive anyway so its actually in Mil best interest to get players that will be in their prime when they are cheap versus having a player that is 21 making his debut, but wont hit his prime until 27/28 when he is a free agent. MiL is going to get Ortiz best years in the majors becuase of his age not in spite of it.
While this is true, I think the argument is that a 25-year-old just now approaching the Majors is a lesser prospect who is very unlikely to develop into a star player.
Aging curves have changed. Players no longer get better until their late 20s, they peak at 24-25 and start to decline in their late 20s.
Ortiz age certainly isn’t a plus, especially for a glove first player. I could see Ortiz being good for the next 2-3 and then his speed and glove start to decline and his bat isn’t good enough to keep him in the lineup.
A glove first player debuting at age 25 isn’t a good sign for the future, it means that he needed to hit is absolute physical peak to even make the majors and when there even is a slight decline they are done.
I’m not saying he will be done soon but generally a late breakout is a bad sign for longevity.
There are exceptions like jose bautista,Nelson Cruz, jd Martinez and so on, but those are all bat first players.
In fact there really is no precedent of a glove first middle infielder becoming an above average player not becoming a regular until age 25 and then still becoming an above average regular.
I don’t hate Ortiz but he took years to become good enough to master the minor leagues, he probably just has peaked and thus dominated AAA pitching.
Again I don’t hate him but I see him as a low obp guy who hits 250/300/400 with 12-15 bombs or so.
That is not bad and will make him a regular for a couple years but that is his peak.
I mean…he was on the exact same trajectory as Pena and Stott, coming into this year.
He was just blocked.
I don’t really think he was blocked. 2024 he would be blocked but 2023 there was a ton of jorge matteo and Ramon urias in the infield, both of them weren’t good.
“250/300/400 with 12-15 bombs or so” from a plus defender is pretty valuable. And it should be noted that Ortiz registered elite exit velocities at Norfolk last season, topping 114 mph.
I haven’t heard of this and my websearch attempts are coming up empty. Do you have a resource on that?
Deals for one year of a guy are often underwhelming. I think what this deal says is that the market for Burnes wasn’t great. He’s still good, but I’d guess a lot of teams were scared by his decline in performance last year.
If 25-26 is old, then I, a soon-to-be 29 year old, am freaking ancient.
LOL You want to talk about ancient. I am soon to be 82 and let me tell you what old is. In 2023 I had two hips replaced and an ablation of the facet joints in my lower back.. It is only February and 2024 has already seen a pacemaker implanted. I am having carpel tunnel surgery in 10 days followed by cataract surgery that is scheduled for the 21st. Jimmy Valvano said “Don’t give up, don’t ever give up” and I feel great!!!!!!.I might even be able to get back on the golf course for my first round since Oct.16, 2021.Keep looking up.
Honestly and I mean this nicely, to be active on a forum and posting (mostly) intelligently at 82 is amazing
I will admit to losing more and more confidence each and every day in the value of computer analysis and my old time belief in the eye test is not likely to be seen favorably by those so inclined but after watching “The Shredder” look absolutely foolish in so many of its top 10 lists I am again encouraged to stand my ground. I will happily put Josh Hader in to close even if “The Shredder” couldn’t find a spot for him in the Top 10.and that is only one of quite a few egregious selections.
To be fair the Shredder is way too preoccupied with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to be a trusted source of baseball forecasting. They should’ve asked Splinter instead
If you were an MLB “prospect”, you’re right. That’s the difference.
Ortiz would’ve been a regular on the Orioles last year if he didn’t already have 4 players blocking him.
*for maybe 12 years. Fixed it for you.
I’m a big fan of this deal for the Orioles. I would love it if they could sign him up for an extension. Also, I’m glad they didn’t have to pay a premium like Mayo for Cease.
Great deal for the Orioles. Congrats. You will never miss Joey ortiz.
I wouldn’t be shocked if they double dipped. Why stop now?
Great deal for the Orioles – perhaps the new ownership green-lighted it? They already were World Series contenders and now they must be considered favorites.
With new owners and a team set to win for many seasons, Burnes may opt to remain in Charm City as well.
Not an O’s fan, but happy for my friends who are. Great deal!
World Series favorites?! That’s going quite a bit further than I’m comfortable with. Let’s say they’re probably one of the 5 best teams in the AL.
That’s more than I’m comfortable with. Let’s say they’re probably one of the 30 best teams in MLB.
/s, for the s-impaired
The AL is going to be pretty interesting this year. I think I’d put both Texas teams and the Yankees in the top group, followed by the O’s, Rays and Jays in the second group, and Seattle and MN in the third group, but they’re all really close and you could rearrange those top 6 in just about any order, or stick Seattle in the next group up.
I don’t think there’s a clear favorite.
I’m putting the O’s ahead of the yankees by a good margin. The yankees pitching is a BIG concern. The two texas teams are the only teams that jump out as legit competition at this point but things can still change.
The Yankees sucked last year (by their standards, anyway) and I hope they fail again. But I wouldn’t put money on it. I think when the ZIPS projections come out they’ll be really close together.
I dont think they will suck I think Orioles win AL east and yankees finish as a wild card as the 3rd/4th best team in AL.
I would say this gives them a chance, where before they didn’t have the rotation to do make a serious run.
Looks to depend on hitting hokding up without regression/injuries and on which Grayson shows up. Plus a few other teams that might have a say.
A chance at the post-season? Yes. Anything beyond that chance is TBD.
The big win is being in the conversation.
Yup. They now have a 1-2-3 that only Seattle can match. And they lost Ortiz who was never going to play for them. DL Hall has upside but great move Baltimore.
The Dodgers are the favorite. But this makes us legit contenders, which we weren’t before.
Great move Orioles. I’m a Yankee fan but your 1-2-3 starting pitching is fantastic and you are clearly in contention for a title.
Are they? The team that led baseball in wins with the best offense that is still in tact and replaced their number 5 starter with Chris Sale I think are the favorites (dodgers are a firm #2 btw)
The O’s were +12 in baseruns record, and virtually all of that was offensive sequencing. They scored 53 more runs than that system thought they deserved. They allowed exactly as many runs as baseruns thought they should.
That’s still good. But this is more taking a 90 win team to 94 (with upside, of course) than taking a 101 win team to 105.
Agreed. I’m really turning into an Orioles fan as we get all their games here in Hampton Roads VA on MSN. But I can absolutely see them being good again this year, winning 90 games and fans thinking it was a disappointing season. Teams just do no reel off 100 win seasons like it’s easy (unless it’s LA).
I mean, if we’re just looking at last year and roster changes, the Dodgers finished 4 wins behind the Braves and added way more this offseason.
I’m a Braves hater, but I’ll admit that they still have a good shot to be #1. But I don’t think they’re firmly ahead of the Dodgers by any means.
I could say a lot of things about this trade and maybe still will, but right now I’ll just leave this:
Corbin Burnes has the same number of 4+ fWAR pitching seasons as all Orioles starters since 2001. Corbin Burnes “down” 2023, when he accumulated 3.4 WAR, has only been eclipsed by pitchers in the organization four times in the same time frame.
Wow. That’s an awesome stat/perspective. (Serious, not sarcasm.) Thanks for sharing.
Thanks! I’ve always thought that the O’s were peculiarly woeful at fielding a rotation and this trade gave me a reason to put it in context.
To have a bit more fun with this:
Corbin Burnes 2021 season (7.5 WAR) is the best among MIL pitchers in the last 15 seasons and would rank as the 11th best pitching season overall in that timeframe (min 50 innings). The best season by a BAL pitcher over the same range (conveniently excluding Bedard) is Kyle Bradish’s 2023 season (3.8 WAR), which ranks as the 324th best pitching season and actually represents an over 200 spot jump above the next best O’s season. Excluding pitchers traded midseason, BAL ranks dead last among teams in terms of “best single season by a pitcher” and is 83 spots behind the next worst team.
If you took every BAL SP season of the last 20 years, and inserted Corbin Burnes into the list, it would go like this:
1) 2021 Burnes – 7.5
2) 2007 Bedard – 5.0
3t) 2022 Burnes – 4.6
3t) 2006 Bedard – 4.6
5) 2023 Bradish – 3.8
6t) 2023 Burnes – 3.4
7t) 2005 Bedard – 3.4
8) 2019 Means – 3.2
9) 2016 Gausman – 3.1
10) 2004 Ponson – 3.0
Burnes’ 2020 season where he earned 2.4 WAR would be tied for the O’s 25th best pitching SP season of the prior 20 years. Weirdly, again with a Bedard year. Burnes, of course, accumulated that in a mere 59.2 innings.
Erik Bedard was pretty damn good before he went to Seattle
edit: 2021 Burnes would have been the best O’s starting pitcher season ever. Full stop. Better than anything Palmer or Mussina managed.
Wow, forgot how awesome Bedard was – and I’m mentally stuck in 2005!
He really wasn’t. His 2006-2007 seasons were good but other than that he was not good.
I Def don’t remember Bedard like that
You could then prorate Burnes’s 2020 season to 6.5 WAR over 162 games, second on your list behind only himself.
Corbin Burnes is great and all but is he a Knight in the Order of Orange-Nassau?
A nice introduction by the new owners.
Given that the deal was completed by the current front office it is now clear why the recent inaction.
A good followup would be a few extensions before opening day.
So the other shoe to drop on Milwaukee’s end is Adames, right? You *could* play Ortiz at second, because Adames/Ortiz is better than Ortiz/Turang. Try to thread the needle of being just good enough to sneak into the playoffs and see if you get lucky in some short series. That feels like a tough ask, though. Ultimately, I think if you’re gonna trade Burnes after already losing Woodruff, ya might as well not half ass it and hang onto Adames. Don’t have to go full tear down if you can get a guy or two who can help soon, like they did here.
This was my immediate take as well. Brewers playing the long(er) game here would see Ortiz/Turang at 2b/SS in some order (both are good defenders at short) and perhaps the promotion of Tyler Black at 3b with an Adames trade used to restock some of the pitching they just lost in the Burnes deal.
I was going to say that (depending on how Turang and Tyler Black hit) a platoon between one of those two guys and a right-handed third baseman isn’t terrible.
Then I remembered Andruw Monasterio is that right-handed third baseman, and that’s pretty terrible.
Matt Chapman would fill a pretty big hole on this team, but I can’t imagine the Brewers are interested in spending.
I would agree. There’s no real reason to hang on to Adames here. The problem is it’s not clear there are a lot of suitors for him. And if this is the return for a pitcher that literally every team could use, I don’t want to see what the return on Adames would be with only a couple of teams bidding.
Who would want Adames enough to offer enough value?
As a rental, it would have to be a contender or at least a pretender in a weak division. Like, ahem, the brew crew.
Of course, that can change during spring training or in-season for injuries or non-performance.
Of, course, there’s always the Dodgers. 😇
Dodgers are the only obvious team. The Mariners before the Polanco trade. The Marlins if Ng was still in charge (but the new guy is from Tampa Bay).
And the Dodgers only if Lux isn’t 100%.
Now, the Brewers might be working off a revenue driven plan because they are among the victims of the Bally RSN implosion. For all we know, moving Burnes is how they’ll pay Rhys Hoskins.
The O’s are getting the benefit of the usual “new owners spending splash” while the Brewers have to recalibrate for ’25 and beyond. On which case anything they get for Adames, now or in-season, will be a plus. And there too they’ll have to go for MLB ready vs highest ceiling posible.
Write the Headline now…..”Dodgers acquire SS Adames”
Yup Adames to the Dodgers makes sense.
Jays, Cubs. Doesn’t have to be an SS fit
As I have stated Adames is already packing. Terrible return for the Brewers and yes I know exactly who Joey Ortiz is. Wow. As you mentioned the return for Adames may be underwhelming. He does have pretty good power though. As a Yankee fan I’m jealous of the Orioles.
Adames probably gets a QO at the end of the year so any return will have to be better than the pick and the money that comes with it. I’m not sure teams are going to be willing to offer that much with Adames coming off the down year. I think they could go with Adames/Ortiz/Turang across the infield, be really good at defense and win the NL Central again. A lot will hinge on the health of Wade Miley and Aaron Ashby though.
If someone trades for him before the season starts, they could give him the QO themselves if they didn’t resign him before then. So theoretically, someone should be willing to give more because they’d get a year of adames plus the QO compensation. Whether anyone actually does it or not, we’ll see
No, because the trading team can do the same thing.
Adames’ “down year” was 3.4 fWAR with a .259 BABIP.
Yup Adames is already packing and Devin Williams may join him. Freddie Peralta is now a one man staff.
I’m honestly surprised that this is the best Milwaukee could do for Burnes. Even a year close to market price is really valuable, especially to a likely playoff team. I’d say this puts them a ways behind Chicago and St Louis for this year.
Great for the Orioles, of course. Hopefully this will kick off a slew of extensions for their young stars.
Me too. I thought that the Orioles would have to give up one of Mayo, Cowser, or Kjerstad for sure. As it stands the Orioles traded a bunch of spare parts for a guy who could potentially front a playoff rotation.
I’m not sure whether the Brewers screwed this up, are much higher on Ortiz and Hall than it looks like to me, or if the market for Burnes wasn’t as hot as it seems.
Hall, methinks.
Ortiz profiles as a good add but Hall is the big variance guy.
My eye pop was that the third guy wasn’t at least a class A prospect.
Two ready to go players plus…a draft pick?
Odd mix.
The Brewers love guys like Hall—big stuff, strike-throwing issues. If they think he can be a five-and-dive starter this deal suddenly makes sense. I don’t buy that he’s going to be able to do that.
The draft pick is essentially a replacement for the comp pick the Brewers would have gotten if they held him. It’s weird to have the replacement be so transparent but it makes our job of figuring things out easier.
The key thing to remember is that it’s a Comp Balance “A” pick — meaning after the 1st round. That pick > random A guy. That math only changes if there is a specific A guy in Balt’s system you like — someone who think would be better than the ~40th pick in next year’s draft.
With a year or two of development rolled in.
A class A guy today might hit AA in 24 if its the right pick.
Either way, he’d be a year or two closer to the majors.
Agreed. DL Hall is the key…not Joey Ortiz the oldest prospect in MLB. Bad move Brewers.
Yes, and if this is the best the Brewers could get, I’m surprised they didn’t hold until the trade deadline.
With current state of NL central, Brewers would likely be buyers at deadline if they keep Burnes.
Same I am surprised this is the best they could do. His contact is reasonable and he is a true ace without significant health concerns. I’m down on Hall ever being able to put it all together because of his command issues. Ortiz makes a ton of sense based on his defensive grades and will allow them to move Adams but it just feels light.
My first reaction was that it felt a little light too, but that’s almost certainly a reflection of the market. Teams knew Burnes was available and the Brewers have conversations on everyone, they knew his market. Their decision became whether this deal was good enough to move him now versus wait, and I think they made the right call, both because they need to keep their cheap player pipeline moving and because they faced two midseason risks, one the usual injury/performance risk, the second the risk that they simply wouldn’t be able to move him if they were playing well.
Of course, teams view different specific players differently. It would be interesting to know whether Mayo was available, or what kind of other offers were out there.
Not moving him at the deadline because they were playing well would be a good thing. At that point, they’d definitely be better off making one last playoff run with Burnes despite losing him for nothing but a QO pick.
I personally would rather have had Grissom plus an MLB-ready arm from Atlanta than this package. Wondering if Atlanta is kicking themselves for jumping on Sale.
I’m pretty sure I would prefer this package to the one you just described. I have a ton of questions about Grissom being a middle infielder, and his offensive game needs to be rebuilt too.
Yeah there are a lot of teams that could use Burnes… like the Yankees or Twins or Phillies or Cardinals or Rangers or you get the point couldn’t beat this?
Yankees equivalent is probably Peraza and Hampton?
Depends how much better you think Hampton is compared to DL Hall. If it’s enough that it compensates for the draft pick, then it works. If not, then you would probably need to throw in an FV40+ or FV45 prospect.
I think that Hampton and Peraza would probably match it but I’m not certain. I think a package of Hampton, Peraza, and Lalane is clearly superior to the one the Brewers received and would have been the winning bid, since Lalane is roughly at the same level as a pick in the A round, Ortiz and Peraza are similar, and Hampton is a better than Hall.
I probably do that, if I’m the Yankees.
My first reaction was “that’s it? for Burnes?” and I mostly feel the same now. Maybe it’s roughly even in terms of expected future value, but getting one of the best pitchers in the game (particularly for a player likely to make the playoffs) carries a big premium. There’s arguably not a huge difference in impact and value between Soto and Burnes for a playoff team (assuming you’re bullish on Burnes rebounding from his 2023), and the package that the Padres got blew this one away.
Can’t believe no team would give a better prospect for one of the best pitchers in baseball on a very affordable contract. Congrats to the Orioles for pulling this one off.
As much as I like Hall and Ortiz, the other thing the relative low cost this deal did for the Orioles was left them with all of their premium prospects intact if they want to swing a deal for someone like a Cease mid-year to really go for it……
I’m really down on Hall and Ortiz, so I agree. You have to take the scouting report and on field performance from about a year ago to make this make sense. This is a no-brainer for the Orioles and for the Brewers it is a head-scratcher. It could work out but only if they know a lot of very specific things we don’t.
“if only they know a lot of very specific things we don’t” is exactly the case, isn’t it? Armchair GM’s have never let that stop them in the past. But speculation and pronouncements is was drives these comment sections. It’s fun to speculate, but statements on future events, without any accountability, aren’t worth much.
In this case, they need to know some set of things:
1) that Hall’s strike throwing can translate to 4+ inning stints
2) that Ortiz’s hard hit rates will translate to the bigs without sacrificing the contact
3) that Ortiz is going to be an above-average defensive shortstop instead of an average one (or above average third baseman)
I’m a little skeptical on all three but if the Brewers believe (1) then I think it all makes sense.
or 1b) Hall is the second coming of Hader (or, more realistically, Hader-lite). Not a crazy take considering the similarities in their minor league track records. Good relievers may be only worth about $30M on the FA market, but *stud* relievers get ~$80M. Like you, I’d prefer Hall as a lights-out five-and-dive SP — i.e., a young Freddy P — but I don’t think it’s essential to justifying the return. Contenders need plenty of Yennier Canos, A.J. Minters, etc.
One frustrating thing about the Brewers’ “never rebuild” strategy is that they force themselves to target prospect need over ceiling, a dangerous game. The collective head-scratching is a product of Hall/Ortiz placement on rankings/lists, but outside of that vacuum, Basallo, Cowser and Kjerstad all play positions the Brewers are super strong at. None would make the team much better in 2024. Mayo would be the best of both worlds, but BP ranks him 15th overall, high enough that the O’s could take him off the table without fear of being bested by another offer. That leaves Ortiz and Hall, and the Brewers certainly need long-term pitching as much as any team.
Here’s a question for those saying this return was too light. What if the choice was Ortiz + Hall vs Mayo + a lesser arm like Seth Johnson or Justin Armbruester? Which package do you want?
For your specific question, I am pretty sure I would take Mayo and a lesser arm. First, I don’t think you can ever afford to take a “lesser” return because it doesn’t fit. If it’s that noticeable, you’re better off just having more talent.
But in this case Mayo can hit, and if there’s one thing that the Brewers need, it’s hitters. I’m usually the person out there singing the praises of plus defenders and making sure you’re not too exposed defensively (say, by playing Max Muncy next to Gavin Lux) but this is not the Brewers’ problem. They have Turang to try now, and probably Eric Brown Jr next year, and at least for now they still have Adames.
If Mayo can play third base it’s even better (Kiley seems to think he will stick there, Eric not as much). But even if he has to move to the corner outfield I’m not convinced that the Brewers are that stocked in the outfield and couldn’t use him. They have a lot of interesting center field types who will lose value if they move to a corner. And if you believe in a player’s bat (say, like Kjerstad) then you probably just take him and make Yelich the everyday DH. It’s really okay to have to trade Garrett Mitchell or Joey Wiemer. These are not guys the team should be worried about blocking.
I’ll buy that Mayo alone carries the day, though it seems clear the O’s correctly determined they didn’t have to offer him. I’m not enough of a believer in Cowser or Kjerstad over Ortiz to forfeit an additional 6 years of Hall.
I guess the question we may never know the answer to is did the O’s refuse to offer Hall + Cowser, or did the Brewers foolishly *prefer* Ortiz due to immediate positional fit?
Elias wasn’t trading Mayo, who they hope will be able to stick at third, or otherwise will take over for Santander in 2025. Basallo is similarly off limits.
Personally, I would take Joey Ortiz over Cowser or Kjerstad, but I’ve always been lower on Heston than most. Joey is a plus defender who also has plus exit velocity. He’s not a bum at the plate, he has legitimate offensive value.
Stick to your guns. We all know you are a very good baseball analyst and you are correct. This was great for Baltimore and flat out bad for the Brewers.
Sorry Michael but most of us posting here know baseball quite well. This was a terrible move by the Brewers. Period. Most of us know who Joey Ortiz is…..or isn’t. Same with DL Hall. This is far from armchair QB.
So…to be absolutely clear, you didn’t like this move for the Brewers? I can’t really tell how you feel about the trade from your 15 similar posts 😀
> You have to take the scouting report and on field performance from about a year ago to make this make sense.
This comment doesn’t make any sense, as Hall and Ortiz didn’t lose value in 2023. All they did was lose prospect status, which pushed them off of lists. In actual performance, Hall was dominant out of the bullpen and showed some improvement with his location, while Ortiz posted a 121 wRC+ in AAA with above average defense at shortstop.
A year ago, people were still saying Hall could be a starter, and I don’t think people are saying that now. And Ortiz lost his shine defensively in terms of what the scouting report said, and as good as he looked in AAA, he looked absolutely lost at the big league level. A guy who will be above-average defender and league-average hitter at shortstop and a guy with a 50/50 shot of being a five-and-dive starter is absolutely worth a year of Burnes. An 8th inning guy and a guy who will be an above-average defender and league-average hitter at second base is way less exciting.
FWIW I was skeptical about Hall as a starter even last year and to me his year of being a functional bullpen piece was a reassuring development towards his eventual role. But I don’t think that was the consensus.
None of what you’re saying is accurate. People have been questioning Hall’s command for years, as I said four years ago that he would end up in the bullpen. In 2023, he actually improved his location. I still don’t believe in him as a starter, but it is more plausible than it was a year ago, not less.
And calling Ortiz “absolutely lost” based on his first 34 plate appearances in the Major Leagues is unreasonable, especially given his Statcast metrics and his minor league history.
Fine, two years ago for Hall. You got me, Mr. Lawyer Scout.
Eric Longenhagen, 2022: “More likely, Hall ends up as an inefficient starter in the Blake Snell mold, though Hall is a better athlete than Snell and has a better shot to hone his command as a result.”
MLB.com, 2022: “He’s one of the best athletes at any position in the system, something that should help him continue to find consistency in that regard. Further refinement will allow him to reach his ceiling as a dynamic lefty starter.”
Kiley McDaniel, 2022: “I expect him to fit best in as a multi-inning reliever or with a quicker-hook as a starter, but the stuff is plenty to turn over a lineup multiple times.”
I think that’s pretty consistent, isn’t it? If you thought he was a reliever four years ago, I can’t deny that (I also had some skepticism, although not to that level) but that’s not exactly what I’m talking about. I’m talking about what people were saying about him before the Orioles gave up and moved him to the bullpen.
Now, here’s Ortiz from last year vs this year:
McDaniel, 2023, #73: “Ortiz has always been an above-average runner with an above-average arm and plus glove at shortstop while the real development has come offensively.”
McDaniel, 2024, #91: “Big league-ready steady glove at shortstop with sneaky power and feel for contact”
This is Eric on the initial list in 2023: “Ortiz is a plus defender anywhere on the infield dirt. He makes up for mediocre twitch and range with outstanding instincts, elegant body control, lightning-fast hands and actions, and a plus arm.”
Now here’s Eric, after the 2023 season, while saying he has a better likelihood of being at second base now than before and giving him a 50 glove: “I’ve dialed down the grades on Orioles infield prospect Joey Ortiz’s defense and arm by a full standard deviation. His diminutive size makes him especially agile, but he lacks any other exceptional defensive attributes. I haven’t altered Ortiz’s FV grade, however, because he is still making a ton of contact and hitting the ball hard, with a 46% hard-hit rate at Norfolk.”
You can say whatever you want about their trajectories, but you can’t say that the consensus is that these are better prospects now than they were in the relatively recent past. The consensus can be wrong, but it’s still the consensus.
You made citations, but none of them addressed your claim that “A year ago, people were still saying Hall could be a starter, and I don’t think people are saying that now.”
The biggest concern about Hall last year was diminished velocity in the spring, but it obviously came back by the fall. As I said, his location improved in 2023, so you should go look what Eno Sarris wrote about his performance last season for The Athletic.
As for Ortiz, Eric just said today that he’s a Gold Glove caliber defender at second base, or he should be fine at shortstop. Meanwhile, his power ticked up significantly. A max exit velocity of 114 mph is really impressive for a plus defender.
It’s completely fine that you’re lower on Hall and Ortiz, as we should all trust our personal judgments, but you were wrong to claim that Hall and Ortiz got worse in 2023. If anything, the complete opposite of that is true.
I can accept differences in judgment but you really should read what you are responding to before you post. It’s like you’re still responding to what I said three comments back in the thread instead of this one.
I’ve read it three times now and I still have no idea why you think it supports your claim that Hall’s projection got worse in 2023.
Because you are not updating your understanding of what I am saying. Whatever, there are more important things than this.
I’d say the two time Cy young winner is a pretty OK outcome
Joey Ortiz ?? Are you seriously claiming Joey Ortiz is going to be a good hitter ?? He is turning 26 this season. He is great defensively but projects as an average hitter at best. He can play regularly in MLB Yes. But he is an underwhelming part of the return for Corbin Burnes. DL Hall has big upside but big injury risk.
6 years of average bat/great defense at an up the middle position sounds pretty valuable to me. Not as sexy as an ace pitcher to be sure, but you don’t have to squint too hard to see a world where he churns out 2+ WAR per year for league minimum for a few years.
I will sum up Ortiz for you. 25 turning 26 years old already !! NOT a young prospect but the oldest prospect in baseball. Great defensively. So so offensively. He is who he is. Not within a mile of even one year of Corbin Burnes. DL Hall is the key. Great arm but a VERY serious injury risk especially starting. The trade was terrible for the Brewers and fantastic for the Orioles.
You do realize that 6 years of what you just described is still a lot more valuable than one year of Burnes, right? Even without hall
Good post. Who the hell down voted it ??
Burnes is 29, has one year left, lost some velocity, had an elevated walk rate, and experienced a substantial dip in strike out rate. He’s still great, but he isn’t as dominating as he was two or three years ago. Hall, at worst, has closer stuff. Ortiz, at worst, is a 1+ and probably 2+ WAR infielder who can play shortstop.
I feel like people are underrating Hall and Ortiz because the Orioles have even bigger prospects, but both have been on the top 100 list.
MLB prospect list is always quite good…BUT….here are the ages of the top 10. Half are 20 or under. The rest are 21. Now let’s move to Ortiz’ ranking. The 2 guys ahead of him and the 2 guys behind him are 19-22-21-21. Joey Ortiz will turn 26 later this season !!! We all know age of a prospect is extremely important. Ortiz stands out like a sore thumb….and not in a good way.
Well stated Jon.
I’m old enough to have been a young fan who experienced the old “Orioles Way” of scouting and player development, which made them one of the best franchises in baseball during the 60s, 70s, and early 80s.
They were fun in fits and starts after that, like the team that went wire-to-wire in 1997. However, they purchased that season.
Today, it finally feels like this is a fundamentally sound system, from top to bottom. It’s almost like being a kid again.
I’m a Mets fan who lives 20 minutes from Camden Yards. I envy you.
is that a 1969 reference?
LOL Those Mets outfielders made circus catches to rob the Orioles. Ron Svoboda-Tommy Agee-Cleon Jones. Oriole fans are still bitter.
Its making sence for both sides. Just a bit surprised with the timing. Would expect this to happen sooner so both teams can navigate rest of the winter with the main work being done.
I know Brewers dont want to operate in windows and believe build 85win team every year is better way, but the fanbase would be less mad if they trade Burnes in december.
The O’s waiting is tied to the team sale; the Brewers…?
Maybe they were waiting to see how the FA Follies played out and got nervous/figured out the O’s offer was the best they could get.
I don’t know what this says exactly but IMO the Orioles gave up less than half the of what the White Sox have been asking for two years of Cease. Most likely what this means is that the White Sox are way out of line with their asks, but it could mean that something weird is going on with two years of control and how it’s (irrationally?) worth more than twice of one year of control. Could also mean that the Brewers sold low.
I think you could argue Burnes is better than Cease too. Significantly better, even.
Comparing this to the Dodgers trade, I prefer Burnes to Glasnow and Pepiot to the package MIL got.
Two many posibilities to actually know from the outside what the Brewers were thinking but from tbe ChiSox point of view, they’re not doing a total teardown and Cease’s full value isn’t clear as long as FA starters are available. They want to be overwhelmed because they think a mid-season deal may bring more than a spring deal. Injuries always happen.
Problem today is most contenders already have an Ace and a two. The O’s were the only true contender without one. So, barring injury, they need to wait out the FA’s and Spring at a minimum to see if anybody blinks.
TBF by trading Cease the White Sox would be doing a 50% teardown. Aside from Cease and Robert, the house is falling down nicely on its own.
Unless Moncada and Co recover even a bit from ’23.
They have a lot of holes butbalso a few guys that might boost their trade value by midseason.
Timing matters in teardowns.
And selling tickets.
Fixed that for you.
I wonder if the Brewers were willing to take a lower return to receive two MLB-now ready players. I think the White Sox are willing to take players further away from the majors as long as they have higher-grades.
Probably explains why Cleveland hasn’t moved Bieber. If this is the return for Burnes, then Bieber’s probably fetching about half that. Meanwhile Cleveland being Cleveland, they’re probably asking for more then what Burnes fetched.
I’m guessing they’re waiting to see which Bieber shows up and what the market looks like in a month. Moving Bieber now is selling low and since the rotation has its share of questions the safe move is nothing. For now.
Bieber is legit toast, probably, tho. Could see him being Greinke of 2023 within a couple years
Yup Burnes over Cease easily. The White Sox are delusional. They are willing to trade Dylan Cease to any team as long as they get 4 of the top prospects from said team. And maybe one MLB ready hitter…and a bit more.
If this is the price for Burnes, what type of judgment does this cast on the value of other players (like Cease) and earlier trades (like Yankees trading for one year of Soto?
Thing is, the yanks needed Soto more than they might need Burnes.
They traded for need. Andca honking lot of talent to boot.
Yeah, and the Orioles needed Burnes about as much as the Yankees needed Soto.
Everyone is so thrilled, and I’m glad the Orioles made a move. That said, Burnes has trended downwards in every single metric the past few years. Every year he has a lower K/9, higher BB/9, worse ERA/xERA/FIP/xFIP. What’s going on here? The trend is very consistent, sadly.
Plus the O’s get a pick if he signs elsewhere after the season.
Here’s my not-at-all-realistic prediction for how things are going to go next for the Brewers.
1) Brewers trade Adames to the Dodgers for another underwhelming return.
2) Brewers take most of the money saved from the Houser, Adames, and Burnes deals (about $35M) and they put it into a pillow deal for Jordan Montgomery.
3) Brewers inexplicably ride an almost-entirely left-handed rotation (Montgomery, Miley, Ashby, Hall, plus Peralta as the token right hander) to win the World Series.
1- Likely.
2- Possible.
3- Doubtful.
I looked up the salaries and the Rhys Hoskins signing offsets the savings from moving Burnes. If like the other Bally victims they are getting less TV money than in ’23, whatever budget remains may not be enough for Montgomery.
The reporting is that the only teams being “negotiated down” by DSG right now are Texas, Cleveland and (sort of) Minnesota. Minnesota is “sort-of” because their deal actually expired, but they’re expected to re-up for at least 24 at a lower value than they got last year.
Everyone else is expected to have their contracts honored for 24. Anything after that kinda feels like it’s up to the bankruptcy court.
And I can’t really see why Montgomery would want a pillow deal. He’s unlikely to be better than he was last year, and he’s put up more than half of his career fwar in the last two seasons. Seems like some team will give him enough to beat any potential benefit from three years of high-level track record versus two
I can’t either, but I also don’t understand why he hasn’t signed yet. You would think that everyone has figured out what teams are willing to pay for him. You are going to need one heck of an injury in spring training to make someone add another $50M to a deal.
This goes for Bellinger and Snell too.
Boras.
Ehh you been low consistently on pitcher deals. My guess is he gets about 50m more than we thought
I had Snell, Nola, and Montgomery at about $140M before the offseason began (I think). I think Nola is the new benchmark, but so far Snell has only gotten an offer of $150M.
At this point, the only thing that could cause a change in contract offers is an injury to a pitcher that creates a sudden need in the rotation. And it would have to be one heck of an injury–like, to Gerrit Cole or Zack Wheeler or Kevin Gausman.
I really don’t see Burnes as a top 5 pitcher anymore, but this is still a wild get for the Orioles. When it was announced I was praying it was “only” Cowser and Ortiz. Hall and Ortiz (plus the draft pick that just washes due to QO, and isn’t really worth discussing given that this is a pre-season trade) is a steal.
Hall might be a good reliever one day, but his lack of ability to break into a quite frankly mediocre Orioles rotation shows that he’s probably never going to do it.
Ortiz….idk man I’ve never gotten the hype, even as a fan with orange colored glasses. His profile just…doesn’t excite me. I’m not convinced he will be able to hit in the majors at all.
I like it for both sides, but Burnes feels like the wheels are about to fall off
My issue isn’t with Baltimore or Milwaukee, my issue is with the rest of the league. This is a classic “why wasn’t my team willing to pay that?” trade. There just wasn’t much news that other teams were out there negotiating with Milwaukee – I have to assume there are a good 5-6 teams out there that *should* have been able to meet or beat Hall + Ortiz, are in a competitive window, and need an ace. WTH are those teams doing if that’s all it took to land him?
Good post. All the “My Teams” are mad as hell.
It’s possible that the interest is there but that it’s less-reported. But you’re right, this return does suggest that there weren’t a lot of teams in on Burnes. You heard more smoke around Glasnow than Burnes, and he pitches about half as much and makes twice as much.
Logically though, anyone who is in on Burnes should be in on Cease. This price was less than half of what we’ve been seeing reported on Cease, and maybe that’s because the price was too high on Cease. And if your choice is between paying 50% for one year or 100% for two, is that extra year of team control really that important? Couldn’t you just do another deal next year too?
I mean Burnes has declining metrics literally across the board every single year. I don’t really think he’s a front of a rotation guy, or even close to it
Although, keep in mind that the Brewers weren’t going to trade within their own division with them still trying to compete this year.
maybe because what are blocked players and “spare parts” for Orioles would be a important prospects for some teams. Especially with Burnes desire to test FA.
After reading a few reports I think this is a good, nearly great trade by the Brewers. I think the key is the Comp Pick. I think the Brewers look at DL Hall and salivate over his stuff. Their pitching development pedigree gives me confidence he is going to start and be quite good at it. Ortiz has a lot of questions to answer with the bat, but has a high floor. Getting a bat first prospect like Westburg would have made this a great trade, but instead they could only pry Ortiz away from the O’s. That is ultimately fine, because they now have a legit shot at a SS of the future. Turang showed that he was no longer on that path last year and it was the biggest hole on this roster moving forward. Ortiz doesn’t fill it, but rather gives them a chance of filling it. Lastly, the Crew showed what they can do in the draft this past summer. Losing the QO Comp pick opportunity always weighed heavily in any Burnes trade calculation. getting a Comp Pick from the O’s negates that concern. All in all, a good, not quite great, trade for the brewers.
Yikes. 99% of the baseball world disagrees. This was a terrible return for the Brewers.
Dude, we get it. You’ve commented like 30 times on this post.
Yeah, but how old is Ortiz?
It feels though that if you have a feeling that you’re much higher on a particular player than your trading partner, you should be able to get a bit more in trade. Would the O’s really have balked at being asked to add a lotto ticket arm?
The key was Hall, not the comp pick. They would have gotten a comp pick in a year if Burnes leaves. Theres value in getting it sooner (though this isn’t thought of as a great draft), but it’s marginal vale. The odds are good that the 32nd pick will not be as good as Hall or Ortiz.
If Hall finds enough command to start, this trade will work out for the Brewers. If he doesn’t, it won’t (unless Burnes gets hurt). Ortiz is a big leaguer but not a huge ceiling. I assume they’re going to trade Adames. If not they presumably would have asked for, and received, Norby instead of Ortiz.
Sure, my point is not that when thinking of hypothetical Burnes trades it was always keep Burnes and get the comp pick or trade him for prospects. Burnes for 1 year and a pick OR prospects.
Look at the Glasnow trade for example. The Rays’ calculus was Glasnow for 1 year and a pick OR Deluca and Pepiot.
By getting the pick from the Orioles the Brewers removed that part of the calculus. Now it is just Burnes for 1 OR Hall and Ortiz. They do not lose the pick along with Burnes like the Rays did.
Sure, but the pick is still not the key to the deal. A pick is just an asset, with specific value, like any other asset. Hall and Ortiz are both more valuable than the pick. Certain other prospects would be too, others wouldn’t be. The Brewers would have gladly taken Sam Basallo and foregone the pick. They would not have taken, I dunno, Jean Pinto instead of the pick. At the end of the day, the pick is the least valuable of the three assets they got in the deal.
By key to the deal, I mean key for my own understanding of the deal. Yes, it could have been better prospects and no pick, but instead it was these prospects and the pick. When I first saw it I was thinking Hall and Ortiz was a light return for Burnes when they could have just had Burnes and the pick. But that is not the right framework, it was Burnes and the pick or Hall+Ortiz and the pick. So the picks cancel out. This was key for me understanding why these prospects were not actually all that light of a return.
DFA’ing Small over Clayton Andrews is a little (if only a little) surprising to me. I am not impressed with the latter’s stuff, and the former actually had the better BB rate in AAA in 2023 — indicating to me that present-day lack of command was not the overriding factor. Perhaps the Brewers believe Small will be easier to slip through waivers, though I can’t see why. Andrews is so meh.
This is Highway Robbery. There is no way this was a “win-win” trade. The Orioles got a true Ace and improved their chances big time of potentially going to the World Series. The Brewers got the oldest “prospect” in baseball who has mid power and some speed but is excellent defensively. Ortiz will turn 26 during the season !! He is NOT a young prospect. And DL Hall has an excellent arm but is a serious injury risk who must lower his walk rate to be good. Shame on the Brewers. Excellent trade for Baltimore.
I wouldn’t call this “Highway Robbery”, it just doesn’t make a lot of sense since teams appear to be so desperate for starting pitching. I would have thought they would have done better.
This is the kinda trade I wished my Reds had the balls for.
They don’t have the balls. They’ve got…they’ve got lady balls.
(No South Park fans here I see) 😀
Does anyone know whether the Orioles get revenue sharing?
I see folks saying the Comp A pick is equal to the QO, that’s not necessarily true. If the Orioles don’t get revenue sharing, Burnes gives them a Comp B pick, not an A.
There’s also some potential time-value difference — the Brewers pick is a year earlier than the QO — but I don’t think the weight of time-value is nearly as great here as, say, the NFL.
The Orioles do get revenue sharing, so it will be a Comp A pick. I do agree with your point about the time-value difference, though.
I think only revenue sharing teams get comp picks at all, and whether it’s A or B is randomly determined each year.
I googled the rules when I was trying to figure this out:
Compensation for losing players who reject their QO
If a team gives a qualifying offer to a player who then signs elsewhere, the club that lost the player is eligible for Draft pick compensation in the next year’s MLB Draft.
• Competitive Balance Tax payors: If the team that loses the player went over the CBT threshold, the compensation pick will be placed after the fourth round has been completed. The value of the player’s contract doesn’t matter in this case.
• Revenue-sharing recipients: If the team that loses the player is a revenue-sharing recipient, based on its revenues and market size, then the selection — if and only if the lost player signs for at least $50 million — will be awarded a pick between the first round and Competitive Balance Round A. If the player signs for less than $50 million, the compensation pick for those teams would come after Competitive Balance Round B, which follows the second round.
• All other teams: If the team that loses the player does not receive revenue sharing and did not exceed the CBT salary threshold the previous season, its compensatory pick will come after Competitive Balance Round B. The value of the player’s contract doesn’t matter in this case.
Like standard Draft picks, compensatory picks in a given tier are ordered in accordance with the previous season’s standings. If a team with MLB’s worst record and a team with a .500 record both lose a free agent that signs for more than $50 million, the team with the worse record would receive the higher of the two compensatory picks.
https://www.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/qualifying-offer
Oh I see, we were talking about two different things. I get it now.
Oriole fans;
“We weren’t mad at the front office! We were saying Boo-urnes!”
Came all the way down here to make a similar joke except it’s the fans saying Brewwww-ers.
Freddy Peralta is
greatfine. Perfectly fine./fixed
Always enjoy the read Ben. Wondering if you will be resuming chatting soon. If so, what day+ time are you shooting for?
As a Brewers fan, I like the move. It seems pretty even for both sides – Orioles won 100 games last year and now have 5 years of Adley + Gunnar, so trading under-leveraged prospects for an Ace to go all-in this year makes sense.
Brewers want to remain competitive but are in a retooling window. Woodruff’s gone, Burnes had to be dealt for the future of the team, and Adames and Williams have 1 and 2 years left (if they’re not traded) respectively. Frelick, Mitchell, Contreras, Wiemer, and Uribe have already debuted, and Chourio, Misorowski, and Gasser will debut soon. Besides Chourio there may not be another superstar in the bunch, but that’s a solid core of productive every day starters for the next 5-6 seasons.
Worst case Hall looks like a high-leverage reliever with an elite fastball and questionable command. Best case he slots into the rotation for 5+ years.
Similar for Ortiz. The defensive tools are there to be an everyday SS or 3B. Hopefully the hit tool keeps developing and he turns into a solid contact guy.
If one of these 2 guys turns into a consistent 3 WAR a year type of player, Brewers are happy with the deal. If both do, then it was a very good deal for the Brewers.
Always great to hear from actual fans of teams in these trade situations! In a vacuum, like everyone else I 100% agree the value of Ortiz/Hall/draft pick isn’t equal to Burnes – but understanding the Brewers weren’t likely going to be able to compete with other teams to sign Burnes after the year, they got a decent return. (We can all argue for days if the team should have traded him last year – but considering the team won the Central that argument doesn’t make much sense to me.
I’m curious on your thoughts, MPMiracle, if the team should consider working Yelich out at first and using him and Hoskins between 1st and DH and letting Wiemer – the far superior defender – work through his warts as one of the corner OFs every day. I just loved the defense, effort and base running that Wiemer brought to your team. Yes, he has his warts at the plate – but it isn’t like he is a zero with the bat, and everything else plays nicely about his game…..
I also think Ortiz’s bat plays better at 2b (although his defense will shine anywhere in the IF), and wonder if the Crew would move Adames for pitching help (like one of the Dodger starters destined for AAA), move Turang to SS and would love to then see them sign Matt Chapman to play 3b…..
Brewers would then go in with three starter spots guaranteed with Peralta, Miley and Rea – and then let all of the youngsters compete for spots 4/5; Gasser, Ashby, Hall, whoever they get in an Adames trade.
And I’m guessing if the Brewers aren’t in contention at the trade deadline, Williams will become a big restocking trade chip in hand.
So they finally sign a competent 1b but then turn around and dump they’re best pitcher. For this return why not hold onto Burnes until mid-season?
I think optics. They can walk the line now about trading the short term for the long term. But trading Burnes mid season, if they’re in it, would just be waiving the white flag. There’s no long term argument if it takes you out of the current playoff race.
Yeah, so they’d only trade him at that point if they fall out of contention. Otherwise at that point, it would then be easily worth it to make one last run at the playoffs despite losing Burnes for nothing but a QO pick after the season.
This is a great deal for the Orioles, but looking at Burnes stats, he did have a “down year” last season with worsening K rate, walk rate, HR rate, slower fastball. I actually wonder if the Orioles swooped in to get him at a small discount because of his down year.
I would not be worried about the HR rate as I would expect it to stay around 10% and be a little better than last season. The concern would be his K and BB rate moving from elite status in 2021(K% 1st in 2021, BB% 3rd in 2021, fastball speed 9th overall) to good/above average in 2023(K% is 21st, BB% is 33rd, fastball speed is 14th).
I think he is still a top 15 pitcher and every team in baseball would want him to be on their rotation for both the entire regular season and lead in the playoffs, but it will be interesting to see if he is more 2021 where he was an ace and one of the best pitchers in baseball or 2023 when he was a very good pitcher.
I enjoy this trade because it makes sense for both teams. The Orioles have prospects everywhere and the best one just happens to play Joey Ortix’s position. Could the deal have been made with Westburg instead of Ortiz, perhaps but no matter how you look at it there is a surfeit of talented young infielders occupying space on the Baltimore roster and somebody had to go. Hall is looking less and less like a stud but should still have value. When Ortiz and Hall complete their Milwaukee careers it is almost certain that they will accrue much more WAR than Burnes will in 2024 but the value of Burnes to the Orioles in 2024 is enormous and I give both teams an A for this trade.
The NL Central is officially a 5-way toss-up!
Would the Brewers have gotten more, or similar, for Burnes in July?
They could have seen if the ‘24 team could make a real run at the pennant, and possibly added a few more interested suitors (adding the Yankees, Dodgers, or other seemingly SP stable teams currently banking on injury prone arms).
I really like this trade for Baltimore, but I’m afraid this accelerates the Brewers sell off without giving the ‘24 team a chance.
I thought the Orioles were going to run away with the division before this trade. Now I think they’re going to the World Series.
Do you know any incident of an above average regular in the middle infield becoming an mlb regular at age 25? Not saying ortiz can’t make it but I think it would be highly unusual.
Ben Zobrist, Eddie Joost are the first two who came to mind
Ben zobrist is a good call. It is very rare though, out of the top25 active war leaders at SS only 2 were above 23 and most where 21-22 (as traditionally SS is a HS and international and not a college position).
Miguel Rojas and Josh wendle where 25+ though so maybe ortiz can have a similar career.
I guess you could count Max Muncy as 2B
George Wright was 25 and Honus Wagner 24