The Pirates Crumbled Before Our Very Eyes

Before the season started, the National League looked like it would feature one of the most exciting and evenly matched regular seasons in recent memory. While the Dodgers were the clear class of the league, every team except the Marlins and Giants had legitimate playoff hopes. FanGraphs thought the Pirates had the third-lowest chances of making the playoffs, and they came in just above 10%. By contrast, seven teams in the American League had a 5% or less chance of reaching postseason play.

With the benefit of hindsight, even the Giants had their shot at a one-game playoff. They’ve faded now, 3 1/2 games out of the Wild Card race, but even that vastly outstrips what was expected of them before the season. Could this year’s NL be the platonic ideal of baseball, a cellar-less (again, other than the Marlins) league with every team at least somewhat in the running for the playoffs until the last month of the year?

Alas, it wasn’t to be. The Giants have outstripped expectations, but they’ve been replaced at the bottom of the table by another team with marginal hopes of contending this year, the Pittsburgh Pirates. The Pirates don’t look like a team built to play for draft position. They made win-now trades as recently as last year, adding Chris Archer in what now looks like one of the most lopsided deals of all time. They came into the season hoping for breakouts from some of their hitters and got them — Josh Bell started the season mashing, and Bryan Reynolds has been a revelation.

Heck, as recently as the All-Star break, the Pirates looked like contenders. They were 44-45, only 2 1/2 games out of first place in the NL Central race, and one of seven teams within 2 1/2 games of the Wild Card. They’d outperformed their Pythagorean record to get there, sure, but what’s past is past, and the Pirates were a month or two of inspired baseball away from a playoff run. Our playoff odds still didn’t like their chances, giving them a 10.3% shot, but stranger things have happened: the Mets, after all, had only a 4.9% chance of reaching the playoffs on that date.

All of that feels shockingly far away now. The Pirates came out of the break with the kind of historic thud that defines a season. In 29 post-break games, they’ve gone 5-24, dropping from the fringes of the division race to 20 games below .500, so far out of the playoff hunt that they’re around three times closer to the Marlins in record than they are to the Cardinals, who they trailed by only a game before this recent stretch.

Going 5-24 isn’t easy. The only team even close to the Pirates over this stretch is the Tigers, who are 7-23. This is despite the Tigers being really, really bad. They were projected for the third-worst record in baseball before the season, and they steered into the skid, trading almost everything not nailed down and building for the future. The Pirates don’t have that excuse.

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To go 5-24, you need “contributions” on the pitching and hitting sides. Only five teams have scored fewer runs per game over this stretch. Only the Rockies (who barely count due to elevation) and Orioles (who barely count due to giving up 7 trillion home runs to Gleyber Torres alone) have allowed more runs. Their best pitcher is Archer, and while that’s what they hoped for when they traded for him, you have to assume Neil Huntington didn’t want Archer to be the best like this:

Pirates Starters, Post-ASB
Player Starts ERA FIP WAR
Chris Archer 6 4.63 3.82 0.7
Joe Musgrove 6 6.53 5.72 0
Trevor Williams 5 6.35 6.57 -0.3
Dario Agrazal 5 5.19 7.06 -0.3
Jordan Lyles 3 14.63 10.59 -0.4
Steven Brault 2 5.4 3.92 0.2
Mitch Keller 1 1.80 3.42 0.1
Alex McRae 1 33.75 7.72 0

Their offense hasn’t been much better. The ten hitters with the most plate appearances have been worth a collective 0.1 WAR:

Pirates Batters, Post-ASB
Player PA wRC+ WAR
Starling Marte 128 138 1.0
Bryan Reynolds 122 136 0.8
Kevin Newman 113 60 -0.3
Josh Bell 104 94 -0.1
Adam Frazier 103 52 -0.3
Colin Moran 93 64 -0.3
José Osuna 71 125 0.4
Melky Cabrera 70 24 -0.7
Elias Díaz 64 12 -0.7
Jacob Stallings 54 95 0.3

Of course, teams are bad all the time. Having a replacement level offense and starting pitching staff is really bad, but clubs like the Orioles, Tigers, and Marlins do that on purpose every year. What’s truly shocking is how much the Pirates have fallen off from a respectable, if lucky, first half.

The pitching staff was expected to be solid, with one of the best few relievers in baseball in Felipe Vázquez anchoring the bullpen, complementing a rotation with four solid starters in Archer, Joe Musgrove, Trevor Williams, and Jameson Taillon. Taillon has missed most of the season with an elbow injury, but even without him, the pitching wasn’t a disaster over the first half of the season. They weren’t good, certainly, but they were somewhere between mediocre and bad. Since then, though — oof:

Pirates Pitching Declines
Statistic Pre ASB Post ASB Pre-ASB Rank Post-ASB Rank
ERA 4.91 5.34 23 24
FIP 4.62 5.18 20 26
xFIP 4.72 4.83 20 27
WAR 6.3 0.5 22 28
ERA- 114 123 27 27
FIP- 105 118 22 28
xFIP- 107 109 24 28

The position players haven’t been much better. Through the first half of the season, the Pirates hitters were above-average. Their 103 wRC+ for non-pitchers was the 12th-best in the league, though abysmal defense (third-worst in baseball) dragged them down. Even with that weight on them, though, they were hanging around. Their 7.7 WAR was hardly less than that of the Cardinals, or the Indians, or any number of seriously contending teams. You can guess what happened next, but the numbers are still shocking, even after putting up 10 runs on the Angels last night:

Pirates Batting Declines
Statistic Pre ASB Post ASB Pre-ASB Rank Post-ASB Rank
wRC+ 103 89 12 24
WAR 7.7 0.6 21 27
AVG 0.276 0.253 1 20
OBP 0.333 0.312 13 24
SLG 0.451 0.415 12 25
ISO 0.174 0.161 21 27
BABIP 0.320 0.284 3 27

Per the definition of WAR, a replacement level team would win around 48 games a year, a .294 winning percentage. In the last month, the Pirates are barely over replacement level (1.1 wins to the good between pitchers and hitters), and their Pythagorean record clocks in at .334. They undoubtedly aren’t that bad — we project them to play .471 baseball the rest of the year. Even if they were one of the worst teams ever, though, their recent run would be impressive.

Think of it this way: the worst team in baseball since World War II, by winning percentage, was the expansion New York Mets of 1962. They were cover-your-eyes awful, going 40-120, a .250 winning percentage. Let’s assume, despite its absurdity, that the Pirates suddenly transformed to a team with a .250 winning percentage overnight. Their odds of going 5-24 or worse over a 29-game stretch would still only be 23%. Even the worst team in baseball history, in other words, would be unlikely to look this bad over a month of play.

Choose even a slightly better team — the 47-115 2018 Baltimore Orioles, say — and the odds vanish to the point of nothingness. Those Orioles managed a measly .290 winning percentage, but their odds of reeling off a 4-24 or worse stretch are less than 12%. The 2019 Orioles, the team with the lowest projected winning percentage in baseball, clock in at 1.1% odds. If you think the Pirates are a true-talent .471 team, as our odds do, wowzers — their odds of going on this ignominious run were a mere 0.08%. In 10,000 sets of 29 games, in other words, they’d project to play this badly only eight times.

If you’re a Pirates fan, there are no silver linings here. Most of the team has been terrible, and the 10% playoff odds at the break and general good feelings around a few promising players have evaporated. For fans of baseball, though, there’s been one silver lining. The combination of the packed NL and the woeful Pirates have led to playoff excitement every time any team plays Pittsburgh. The Pirates have played nine full series since the break, and due to the congestion of the NL, all have been at least marginal playoff contenders. The Pirates, of course, have dumped the vast majority of those games, which means that nearly every Pirates series since the break has shaken up the NL playoff picture.

Take a look at the change in playoff odds from beginning to end of series for each of the Pirates’ nine post-break series:

Play the Pirates, Make the Playoffs
Opponent Pirates Record Opp Playoff% Change
@ Cubs 0-3 +10%
@ Cardinals 1-2 +1.5%
vs. Phillies 1-2 -.4%
vs. Cardinals 0-4 +16.7%
@ Mets 0-3 +6.4%
@ Reds 1-2 +1.6%
vs. Mets 1-2 +6.8%
vs. Brewers 0-3 +7.6%
@ Cardinals 0-3 +11.9%

The odds obviously don’t add this way in any logical sense, but let’s ignore logic for a second and have fun. The Pirates have added a cumulative 62.1% to teams’ playoff odds over their last 28 games, excluding last night’s against the Angels. In other words, teams have added 2.2% to their playoff odds for every game where they’ve played the Pirates. Want playoff excitement? There it is.

The Pirates probably won’t be this bad for the rest of the year. If you trust our Depth Charts projections, they’ll accrue 7.6 WAR over their last 44 games. The offense woke up last night, and Mitch Keller, who looked excellent in his start, should add to the rotation. If that’s the case, if they’re a mediocre team instead of a .190 winning percentage nightmare over the rest of the year, they just might swing the playoff race. The Mets were fortunate enough to get all six of their Pirates games in during this streak. The Cardinals had 10 of their 19 games, and are 12-4 overall against them this year.

The Nationals, meanwhile, are 1-2 against the Pirates with four left to play. The Cubs lead their season series only 6-4. The Reds, still marginally alive, are 5-8 against the Bucs. In a year where the NL Central and Wild Card races could come down to a single game, the road to the playoffs right have run through Pittsburgh over the past month, though we didn’t know it at the time.





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

40 Comments
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Outta my way, Gyorkass
7 years ago

So, THIS is how the Cardinals got back into the hunt.

Nutting TusihereMember since 2017
7 years ago

And this is also why Goldschmidt is “surging”. 1.406 OPS during those 10 games vs Bucs pitching in July/Aug. Only .801 vs everyone else.

dcweber99
7 years ago

I suppose the plus side is the house-cleaning that will hopefully happen this offseason. Searage’s magic potion seems to have dried up, and the performance of Cole/Morton/Glasnow since leaving Pittsburgh looks really bad, especially with Chris Archer declining in almost every key rate, Jameson Taillon being mediocre when healthy, and Mitch Keller struggling (until last night). Drafting and development has been disappointing as well- Reynolds has been a great semi-surprise, but too many of the top prospects have backslid this year (Hayes, Keller, and Tucker as some of the most notable).

Huntington also has to live with the consequences of the Archer trade, even if it was ownership driven- the price felt too high when the deal was made, and hindsight is showing it to be one of the worst trades in recent history. We know he has a tight budget with which to work, but even under those constraints, the bullpen he assembled this year has been unforgiveably bad.

It’s been a terrible summer. There are still some nice pieces- Josh Bell isn’t as good as he was in May and he’s not as bad as he’s been since the break, Newman is probably a .280 hitter, and if Reynolds can find a bit more power, he’s a legit building block. However, it’s nearly impossible to have any faith in this leadership team’s ability to develop high-quality pitching, and since the Will Craig draft, the decision making has often not held up to scrutiny. Bob Nutting is the biggest obstacle, but he’s not the guy forcing pitchers to throw pitches they aren’t comfortable with. It’s time for a regime change here.

Nutting TusihereMember since 2017
7 years ago
Reply to  dcweber99

Not to mention Elias Diaz had turned into the worst pitch-framer… hell, worst catcher, in all MLB. Cervelli wasn’t hitting bupkis this year, but while he was still playing, the staff appeared to be at least semi-competent. Stallings is better than Diaz at this point.

Clay Holmes could be the next Charlie Morton for all we know. Maybe Hartleib too, but neither has a lick of confidence at this point, despite having good stuff.

The Archer deal… you only deal for Archer and Kela if you’re planning on seriously competing the following year. I don’t know what Huntington was looking at to make him think this roster would be competitive. Even his relative successes this season were quite by accident – Chisenhall decided to become a goldbricker allowing Melky (a minor league signing) to make the roster, EGon took out Marte which forced Reynolds into a full time role and also allowed Newman to take over at SS. Stallings is only here due to Cervelli’s repeated injuries. And Stratton is just now finding success because he wasn’t getting opportunities until everyone else crapped the bed.

Huntington, Stark, Broadway… they all have to go. As well as Clint and Ray.

MichaelMember since 2016
7 years ago

Concur on all you said other than contending this year. You put a healthy Taillon back on this team and it’s a different team.

Take any #1 starter off a team whether it’s a Scherzer type or a Luis Castillo etc. and it changes everything. This loss of #1 is especially damning as it looks like it’ll be Taillon’s second arm surgery…. after cancer last year. Very demoralizing, especially to a great dude.

Lanidrac
7 years ago
Reply to  Michael

First of all, Taillon is not a #1 starter for the majority of MLB teams.

Second, tell that to the 2011 or 2015 Cardinals. Both years, their #1 starter (Wainwright in both cases) missed most or all of the season to injury without any time to replace him via free agency. The 2011 team won the World Series, while the 2015 team won 100 games and the Division Title.

carterMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I would say he is for the majority. Not the majority of teams in the race for the playoffs, but off hand he would be the best pitcher on 3 teams in the AL West, 2 teams in the Al East, 3 teams in the Al Central, 2 teams in NL East, 2 teams in NL West, and honestly the NL Central is tough. Obviously better than whoever the Brewers have, but the other ones are mostly a matter of opinion. Cubs starting pitching isn’t good, nor is the Cardinals. Part of it might be because those pitchers are facing steep competition, but coming into the season you would have to take Tailon over any pitcher on the Cubs and maybe push with Flaherty on Cardinals.

AdvantageSchneiderMember since 2018
7 years ago
Reply to  carter

Brewers had Brandon Woodruff before he got hurt. 11-3 with a 121 ERA+ and a 3.10 FIP. I wouldn’t say Talion is obviously better than Woodruff.

dcweber99
7 years ago
Reply to  Michael

Taillon isn’t an ace, and if he stayed healthy, the Pirates maybe have two more wins. When you have a six week stretch where you’re scoring 1 or 2 a night, a pitcher with a 3.5 ERA or so doesn’t really move the needle.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  dcweber99

This is correct. Taillon, when healthy, is ideally your 2nd or maybe even your third best starter on a real contender. If he’s the guy you start when the season is on the line you better have some real mashers in your lineup or else you’re going totally nowhere.

Optimists probably saw Archer as that #1 guy, but he’s not really that either when he’s right and he sure as heck isn’t right these days. The less said about him the better.

Of course, you could say similar things for the rest of the division. The Cubs have nearly an entire rotation of #3 starters; the Reds have Bauer (a solid #2 at least), Castillo (a likely solid #2), and Gray (a #3 who is pitching like a #2 right now; the Brewers have Brandon Woodruff and a bunch of #4/#5 guys; and the Cards, whose best guy is Flaherty. But all of those teams have a far deeper rotation, score a lot more runs, or both. The Pirates are constructed to be just below average in nearly every area.

dtpollittMember since 2016
7 years ago

The day Clint Hurdle is out of the league and stops promoting head hunting will be a good day for the safety of baseball players.

dcweber99
7 years ago
Reply to  dtpollitt

“If you don’t want your head to be thrown at, maybe get some personal responsibility and don’t have a head to throw at.” Mark Madden (probably)

Jross
7 years ago

This is what happens when your only big off season move is signing Lonnie Chisenhall. The bucs front office never expected to be in the hunt this year. They are satisfied with the low risk profits they make from an averageish team built around league minimum guys.

Bum Ho Lee
7 years ago

Despite a waning interest in watching their games, it’s actually been a pleasantly rewarding nosedive to witness. I feel like Mr. Burns doing the sinister, bad guy air-flute gesture as I watch a diabolical plan unfold.

This year, the coaching staff and FO won’t have the “few close games away from playing baseball in October” excuse to defend their strategy of fielding a dollar store .500 team and hoping it limps into a play-in game. The experiments may come to a merciful end – Frazier’s not a lead off hitter for a contender, Moran’s a lefty bench bat to compete with Will Craig for the DH spot if it ever makes it to the NL, Erik Gonzalez didn’t work, the DuRapau/Hartlieb/Holmes/rest of AAA pen isn’t producing another serviceable 7th inning guy.

With tempered optimism, I hope this run of poopy play incites some movement at the top of the org, and an acknowledgement (even if it’s not public) that the Pirates’ approach has quickly fallen behind. They still have a solid foundation, so it’s not an organization staring down a long rebuild, but it could be without some adjustments.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  Bum Ho Lee

I sort of agree that they’re not facing a “long” rebuild in the sense that they have to be terrible. Bell is someone they should try to lock up long-term, and Newman and Reynolds look like they could be nice complementary pieces. Since no one will give up huge amounts of prospects for any of those guys, they should probably keep them and build around them. Ke’Bryan Hayes, if and when he gets to the majors, looks like he could be a nice complementary piece too, and maybe Pablo Reyes too. Cole Tucker and Oneil Cruz could both be good, too.

The guy they should probably try to move is Starling Marte. There are a handful of teams right now who are desperate for a center fielder, and Marte is (a) not going to be around for the next good Pirates team and (b) is at an age where a lot of CF’ers start to decline. I would say they should move their pitching too, but since Taillon is hurt they probably have to make sure he can re-establish himself first.

WARrior
7 years ago

A series against the Angels is all a slumping team needs. Just ask the Tigers and Orioles.

runningfrog
7 years ago

It sure is a good thing they didn’t sell Vazquez at the deadline. The 3 innings he has pitched in the last 18 days have been a real difference maker for the team.

LenFuegoMember since 2025
7 years ago

“Think of it this way: the worst team in baseball since World War II, by winning percentage, was the expansion New York Mets of 1962. Let’s assume, despite its absurdity, that the Pirates suddenly transformed to a team with a .250 winning percentage overnight. Their odds of going 5-24 or worse over a 29-game stretch would still only be 23%. Even the worst team in baseball history, in other words, would be unlikely to look this bad over a month of play.”

Could you clarify what you mean by that 23% figure? I took it to mean that would be the odds for having *any* such stretch over the entire season, and that just cannot be true. The 1962 Mets had at least 14 stretches of 29 games where they went 5-24 or worse (each of the 29 game stretches starting at games 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 68, 69, 76, 109, 113, 114, 115 and 116, bottoming out at 4-26 from games 32-61), and perhaps one or two more depending on how you want to count a tie they had that season. So do you mean that in any *particular* stretch of 29 games they would have a 23% chance of going 5-24 (because that does not really seem all that horrific)?

Eric C.
7 years ago
Reply to  Ben Clemens

Exactly. It is quite likely that a team playing .250 baseball will have a 5-24 stretch somewhere in the season, and Ben is right that the math would be a pain, but we can avoid that by simulating a bunch of seasons.

A .250 team will have on average *30* 5-24 stretches in a 162-game season (remember, they can overlap), and will have at least one such stretch in 95% of these abysmal seasons. If we look at 81-game half-seasons, these unhappy players will have on average over 11 such stretches, and will have at least one such stretch in 72% of their half-seasons. It’s only when we ask whether going 5-24 will occur in a *particular* 29-game stretch that it’s unlikely.

jsdspudMember since 2018
7 years ago

This really has been terrible to watch over the last month. It seems like they lose in a different way each night. On Saturday Newman threw a ball into the stands on a relay throw to nab a runner that was not trying to advance to 3rd. On Sunday, a pop fly drops between SS and LF. Crick then hits two batters in a row to load the bases then bring in a run. Hurdle leaves him in the game when it was obvious that he had no idea where the ball was going to give up a grand slam. At this point, I don’t care if they win another game because every loss means that their draft pick will improve.

The pitching staff really misses Cervelli. He seemed to know how to handle them the physically and mentally. The team has no depth, but what do you expect with an $80M payroll. A new GM isn’t going to help much unless Nutting commits to a significant payroll increase. The pitch to contact/2 seam fastball approach has to change. The development staff/methods has to improve with both the hitting and pitching. Hurdle either needs to go or commit to learning how to better manage a pitching staff. I could go on and on but I have to get back to work.

I wish that MLB would step in and either end the Nutting era or force him to spend more on the major league payroll. The only hope that I have is that the next collective bargaining agreement contains a payroll floor of about $100M and Nutting sells. I live about 25 miles from PNC Park and would attend about 6-7 games per year. This year I attended opening day because my employer gave me tickets. I haven’t been back since and don’t really have a desire to go. My son’s girlfriend wanted to buy him a jersey for his birthday and asked me which player she should get. I couldn’t think of a current player that I could guarantee would be on the team in 2021 so I told her to buy a McCutchen jersey because that was his favorite player. Thanks for reading, writing this has been therapeutic.

Eucker's Tuba
7 years ago
Reply to  jsdspud

The play where Newman threw the ball into the dugout was appalling. Moran could’ve just knocked the ball down, but he missed it completely. Musgrove was late backing up third; if the runner had tried to advance, he wouldn’t have been in position anyway.

Then there was the sequence where Munoz stole second in the 4th inning with a nine run lead or whatever it was. On the next pitch, he recognizes that they aren’t bothering to hold him on, so he opportunistically steals third. I thought that was going to start a brawl, but when they cut to Hurdle in the dugout, he looked just as dumbfounded as everybody else did.

To me, they’ve looked flat out demoralized, and that goes to leadership. No way Hurdle survives this offseason, no matter whether they’re trying to tank or contend or what.

Tooele Dave
7 years ago
Reply to  jsdspud

The comment about getting a new GM won’t make a difference if Nutting keeps his wallet sewed shut, is 100% correct in my opinion. I have been a die hard Pirates fan since the early 70’s and what I see going on is sickening.

Connor Grey
7 years ago
Reply to  jsdspud

I went to PNC when the Pirates played the Mets a little over a week ago. I found it amusing that there were hardly any jerseys that Pirates fans were wearing where the player was currently on the team. I think I saw more Bill Masorowski jerseys than any current Pirate.

puddleMember since 2017
7 years ago
Reply to  jsdspud

“The team has no depth, but what do you expect with an $80M payroll. A new GM isn’t going to help much unless Nutting commits to a significant payroll increase.”

Spending would help, but a competent front office with current spend levels could give you the Rays or the A’s. I’d argue the current front office with lots of spending would give you the Giants (pre-Farhan Zaidi), Angels or Rockies. If I were the Bucs’ super cheap ownership, I’d invest heavily in the front office. It’s easily the best bang for the buck.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
7 years ago

Pssst. The Pirates have been bad *all season long*. They had a negative run differential for virtually the entire year, and at the all-star break their run differential was something like 5th worst in MLB. Okay, yes, they’ve been shockingly terribly bad since then, but this team was always a below-average team. They just got lucky early on.

alexpbloomMember since 2019
7 years ago

There are a lot of good comments here about the Pirates’ downfall being a combination of bad front office decisions and a parsimonious (that’s the most charitable description I can think of) owner. I appreciated Ben’s analysis of how unlikely it would be for a team to have a stretch as bad as this Pirates’ stretch has been. Really unlikely! but I’m also curious about whether or not there’s actually any path forward for this team, not necessarily next year, but…. like… ever?

The Pirates last won their division in 1992. If you were born in November of 1992, you’ve seen the Pirates play in 8 playoff games. You’ve seen the Pirates win 3 playoff games. They’re averaging just over 1 playoff game victory per decade.

It took an almighty confluence (see what I did there) of factors to culminate in their improbable playoff appearances in the early part of this decade. McCutchen played at MVP level while on an above-average regular contract. They were at the front-end of shifting, identifying undervalued pitchers, and pitch-framing. They executed a few great trades (to get Melancon, for example). And some of their prospects came good (Marte and Cole). They also invested more money in payroll than they ever had (or have since), though this was still in the bottom 1/3 of MLB.

None of these features persists. The recent trades have run the spectrum from bad (bye-bye, Cole) to disastrous (hello, Archer). No one in the Pirates organization looks like becoming an MVP-caliber player. Folks who have left the organization have performed better elsewhere (Cole, Morton, Glasnow, Meadows). The Pirates are behind the times on analytics (hitting for average while the league moves to power; have they evolved their pitching philosophy at all?). Their free agent signings have been bad (except for Melky, who is only playing because Chisenhall is got a one-year contract just to do rehab). And their payroll is 25% less than it was 4 years ago.

The team’s failure to acknowledge that their window to compete wasn’t indefinite meant that the end of their window of non-competitiveness is now indeterminate. I don’t think the Pirates will have a realistic run at winning the division until the mid-2020s. What’s the best-case scenario? Healthy Taillon, Ke’Bryan Hayes is a 3-win rookie, Polanco puts up a 3-win season, Bell puts up a 5-win season, Keller is a 3-win SP, Musgrove is a 3-win SP. There’s still a pretty big hole in the middle infield, catcher, and the back half of the rotation, to say nothing of pitching innings 6-8. The team’s best player (Marte) is on the wrong side of 30. But staring all this in the face, the FO thinks it’ll be competitive in 2020. Mind-boggling. And every year they say, “next year,” with the limited talent at their disposal, it kicks an actually competitive year one more year down the road.

I’d honestly love to see a survey of when Pirates’ fans think the team will next win a division title. I’d take the over on 2025.

MichaelMember since 2016
7 years ago
Reply to  alexpbloom

A divisional title is such a stupid gauge of success. Teams win divisions with 89 wins and others miss the playoffs entirely with 95 wins. The Pirates won their division in ’92 with 96 wins. They didn’t win their division in 2015 with 98 wins.

World Series or nothing. 1979 for Pirates. 1988 for Dodgers. 1948 for Indians.

evilsquirrel13
7 years ago
Reply to  Michael

The Marlins must be an awfully successful franchise then.

Lanidrac
7 years ago
Reply to  Michael

Maybe not “World Series or nothing,” but yeah, play-off appearances whether by Division Title or Wild Card should be counted equally. Although, how far you get in the play-offs once you get there also matters a lot, as teams like the Pirates and Nationals are criticized for not making it past the Division Series during their recent windows of success.

alexpbloomMember since 2019
7 years ago
Reply to  Michael

I think it’s fair to quibble with it, which is why I also listed playoff games and playoff game victories. I was at the Wild Card game in Pittsburgh in 2013. It was an incomparable sporting experience. It made me believe that what matters is playing meaningful games. I don’t know if you’re a Pirates fan, Michael, but if you are, then you should understand what 20 years of never playing meaningful baseball does to a fanbase. Being able to root for my team in the playoffs is what I want. Maybe if you’re a fan of some big money team that makes the playoffs regularly all you care about it WS titles. But thanks for calling my approach to fandom stupid.

carterMember since 2020
7 years ago
Reply to  Michael

I personally see it exactly the opposite. The World Series, while being the ultimate goal is mostly variance. There used to be scenarios where a team held a much higher edge decades ago, but even the Astros vs STL (current WC2) would be in the 2 to 1 range based on my rough calculations.

To me the Dodgers/Astros are the franchises that are a model of success. If neither of them wins the WS this year, who cares? They are still the best two teams. Anything can happen in a series. All the people harping “Dodgers didn’t go out and get bullpen help thus they will not win the WS” are completely wrong. The best bullpen arm in the game wouldn’t increase odds more than a few percent, which makes no sense for a team to make a win now trade for.

I liken baseball to poker, which is maybe why I like both. Ultimately the goal is making the right decisions, rather than focusing on results. If you play a hand poorly and get lucky, does that mean you made the right decision? No, clearly. If you play a hand correctly and get unlucky, did you make the wrong decision? Likewise, no. In poker we call that being results oriented, which is what baseball forums are always plagued with. A lot of people talking about WS wins, like they are the what defines teams. If the best team won, we wouldn’t have a game. That is why the game is so great. End rant.

timprov
7 years ago
Reply to  alexpbloom

I have one thing that might make you feel better: I thought much the same about the Twins two years ago. And not only that they had wasted their competitive window but possibly their last economic window to put up a team that deserved a competitive TV contract. That looks kind of silly now.

Of course, the Twins have had pretty amazing luck to make that transition – two guys who looked like large busts turned into above-average regulars, a guy who looked like he would never hit left-handed pitching is now a fringe MVP candidate, they keep pulling hitters who can’t miss the ball out of nowhere, a couple of soft-tossing starters have somehow hit basically the maximum value for soft-tossing starters in this era, their front office managed to wait forever to make two FA signings that everyone else should have been in on, and so on. But it is possible.

Bum Ho Lee
7 years ago
Reply to  alexpbloom

As you point out, the failure to acknowledge where this team is in the competitive cycle is very troublesome, but a 2021 version of this team could be in the thick of the 3-5 team NL central race even without bucking their absurd frugality.

With some more progressive pitching guidance, you’ve still got one of the better on-paper pitching staffs in baseball. Their perplexing tendency to say they want to be competitive, then sleep through the offseason makes it easy to forget that Taillon returning to form is a 4.5+ WAR pitcher, Musgrove will likely land in the 2.5 – 3 range this year despite some seemingly fixable issues hurting his performance, Archer is still a serviceable #3 on paper with more ceiling than most, Keller will likely have a full MLB season under his belt (and hopefully someone who doesn’t have him throwing his best off speed pitch only 13% of the time). We all saw the ZIPS projections, so beyond the obvious health variable, they just need someone who can translate on-paper to in-practice the way searage did so well at the beginning of the decade.

I don’t think the offensive holes aren’t as glaring as they appear, and eckstein seems to have steered some folks in the right direction, so a return to something resembling the payrolls they ran during their last playoff appearance(s) could go a long way. Hayes at 3rd should offer a hefty boost, Newman and a 2021 Cole tucker doesn’t sound half bad up the middle, and when you consider the possibility of one of their other interesting OF prospects taking a step forward by then (Jason Martin, Jared Oliva, swaggerty, Cruz, Mitchell) the outlook isn’t quite so bleak. Add in a return for Marte (no breaths will be held) and a passable catcher and you’re left with a deep, but un-sexy on-paper team that actually resembles a 2019 rays lite….makes some sense considering NH is the Gale Boetticher to Neander’s Walter White, and probably has a Neander shrine tucked away in one of his crawl spaces.

carterMember since 2020
7 years ago

Reynolds is showing a power stroke. When he was called up (albeit incredibly early) he was leading his league in HRs. I think with 2019 baseballs he is a 25+ hr guy, and he has always shown decent speed in the minors. A guy who can play competently in the outfield (not good, even though different metrics have him entirely different) and is likely a true talent 120ish wRC+ is certainly a guy to build around as well. Honestly, moving forward I’d take him over Bell.

curt schillings ketchup bottle
7 years ago

Luckily the dysfunctional angels and their cracker jack pitching staff showed up on the schedule at the perfect time

TheGarrettCooperFanClub
7 years ago

It really is incredible that a team that buys players like Archer and Kela at the deadline a year ago and decide that they’re going for it do absolutely nothing the following offseason and just hope and pray that everything will go right.

I still believe that the Archer trade was nothing more than fan service, to make it up to the fans because they refused to make major moves like that during their last run and to make up for them trading Cutch and Cole in the same offseason. I don’t think they ever really had any intentions of making big moves like that again in the future. If anything, seeing how that trade has backfired might be more reason for NH to be even more risk-averse. Not like it matters, either. The team isn’t going to be very good for some time

BobbyJohn69
7 years ago

I sure am glad I’m a fan of the Rockies instead…

BillClinton
7 years ago

And now Taillon has TJS instead of a more minor procedure. Disband the Bucs.

AdvantageSchneiderMember since 2018
7 years ago

The pirates front office always seemed to do the exact opposite of what they should have done. They never made a big splash when they were playoff contenders with an MVP in McCutchen. They didn’t sell off when their window was closing and then last year they traded for Archer when they didn’t have a realistic shot at the playoffs. Will whoever is running the club this offseason have the smarts to do a complete teardown? Trade Josh Bell and any other decent assets for prospects? I have a feeling they won’t and the remaining pirate fans are going to be in for a long rebuild.