The Value of Joe Maddon
Under pretty much all circumstances, relative to people involved in the game, we the public have a lesser amount of information. Sometimes, it’s close, like when it comes to specific player valuation — we have access to almost as much as the teams and executives do. But sometimes we’re bringing a straw to a knife fight. There’s perhaps nothing we understand less than the value of a manager. Analysts have tried to dig in deep, and within our heads we have ideas of which guys are better than others, but ultimately we’re always guessing on the impact. What are we supposed to do with charisma and leadership? The attempted evaluation of managers causes many people to just throw up their hands. Why even bother?
So, from the outside, we can barely say anything. We simply don’t know. And maybe teams don’t know much, either. Maybe they’re guessing almost as much as we are. But we can at least evaluate market behavior as an indirect reflection of a guy’s perceived value. And the market has responded strongly to Joe Maddon’s sudden and unanticipated free agency. The Cubs are going to hire Maddon, officially, maybe before I’m done writing this post. It’s pretty clear, then, how highly Maddon is thought of.
No one expected Maddon to become available. Maddon himself didn’t remember he had an opt-out clause, so few teams were prepared for this. Still, as news spread that Maddon was leaving the Rays, we heard his agent was already in contact with at least ten different organizations. There was interest in Maddon coming from everywhere, a level of interest we didn’t see with, say, Buck Showalter, or Terry Francona. Immediately, it looked like Maddon would follow his friend Andrew Friedman to Los Angeles, but then came the Cubs rumors. As a reminder, here’s what the Cubs said about manager Rick Renteria at the end of September:
Theo Epstein held his season ending press conference Tuesday afternoon. And the first line of business for the day was to announce Rick Renteria and a majority of his coaching staff will return for the 2015 season.
[…]
“Coaching staff, by in large, I thought did a really nice job this year,” Epstein said. “The coaching staff did a really nice job of establishing the culture that we were looking for here.”
The Cubs aren’t doing this because they conveniently had a managerial vacancy. The Cubs are creating a managerial vacancy in order to make room for Joe Maddon. They’re making themselves look bad in attempting to upgrade, and word is Maddon will receive an enormous contract, similar to although smaller than Mike Scioscia’s. So, Maddon generated broad interest, and a team is going back on its own words in order to pay him rather handsomely. Things wouldn’t happen like this if Maddon weren’t perceived to be a game-changer. While we can’t put a number on his value, it’s indicated rather clearly that Maddon is seen as one of the very top leaders in the sport, and it’s indicated that teams value that characteristic.
Of course, it all feels a little weird and unseemly. The Cubs are, in essence, leaving a partnership with Renteria for a partnership with Maddon, without first breaking the former off. It feels like cheating. But the goal is to win, in Chicago especially, and emotion can play only a limited role. It wouldn’t feel nearly so dirty if these were players instead of coaches. The Royals have Omar Infante under contract, but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have interest in a hypothetically available Chase Utley who really wanted to play for them. And if the Royals pulled that off, they’d be praised for their navigating, even though it would mean bad news for Infante. The goal’s always to make a roster as good as possible, so the same should extend to the coaching staff. We can’t evaluate a coaching staff, but the Cubs obviously believe very strongly that Maddon will be more valuable to them than Renteria could ever be.
So it’s hard to fault anyone. It’s hard to fault Maddon, because he’s just looking out for himself. And it’s hard to fault the Cubs, because they’re just looking out for themselves, and they didn’t anticipate this. Obviously, Maddon seems like a beyond-perfect fit. The team he inherited in Tampa Bay was bad with incredible upside, and they won big in his third year. The Cubs’ young talent, meanwhile, is hyped like no one else’s, and Maddon’s experienced in helping a team like this transition from losing a lot to winning a lot. Maddon managed to build and sustain a warm, positive, and welcoming clubhouse atmosphere, that even embraced Yunel Escobar. Maddon has countless times over demonstrated his leadership, and being among the early adopters of common shifting, he’s doubtlessly open-minded to new ideas. Maddon has an analytical brain that also allows him to communicate, and he has a background of working well and closely with a front office not too different from the one in Chicago. To whatever extent we can evaluate managerial fits, this seems like a good managerial fit. The Cubs agree.
After all, who wouldn’t want a piece of what’s been a team-building miracle in Tampa Bay? There are risks, as there always are. Maybe players in Chicago won’t respond as well. Maybe Maddon is just less motivated than he’s been in the past, or maybe there was more to the atmosphere that developed with the Rays than just Maddon himself. Maybe the atmosphere was good because the Rays won, and Maddon wasn’t actually that important. Again, manager. We don’t know much. But the rumored average annual salary of his new deal is around $5 million. Last year Edinson Volquez signed for $5 million. Erisbel Arruebarrena signed for five years and $25 million. The commitment here is big money, especially for a coach, but it’s not franchise-altering money, for a potentially franchise-altering man. You can understand the roll of the dice.
What of the Rays? Alex Cobb figures they’ll be fine.
“But I think inside the clubhouse, it sounds rough to say, but I don’t think the impact that those guys had on us on a day-to-day basis is going to affect us as much as a lot of people are speculating.
“I don’t mean to take away from what Andrew and Joe do, but the people that win ball games are the people that are in between the lines every single day, and that’s who’s going to continue to win ball games. I know for a fact that the guys in the clubhouse, the connection between everybody is strong enough to withstand something of this nature.”
Talent has already been put in place, by Andrew Friedman. Players have already been developed, and ideas have already been instilled, by Joe Maddon. Not all that much will be lost or forgotten, at least for 2015, so the Rays ought to be all right. Maddon’s taking his personality with him, but he built a clubhouse that can function without him.
Now it’s his turn to do something similar in Chicago, and based on the pursuit and investment, it’s obvious the Cubs think of Maddon as a genuine difference-maker. It’s obvious they’re not the only ones — they’re just the most willing to do what it takes in this instance. How many wins is a manager worth? I couldn’t tell you. But the Cubs don’t seem to think any manager’s worth more than Joe Maddon. Certainly not the manager they already had.
Jeff made Lookout Landing a thing, but he does not still write there about the Mariners. He does write here, sometimes about the Mariners, but usually not.
In 1973, the Rangers fired Whitey Herzog mid-season to hire Billy Martin and it was a purely regional story – got only a brief mention in the NY Times. The Cubs fire Renteria to hire Maddon and it’s worldwide news. Thanks, Internet.
The Rangers could hire Billy Martin today and it would only be a regional story. That’s not the internet, it’s Cubs vs. Rangers.
I’m pretty sure if the Rangers hired Billy Martin, who’s been purportedly dead for 25 years, it would be a huge national story, regardless of how it came about.
You can hire him, but I think you have to be realistic about your expectations about how much he’ll get done…
You’re welcome.
that’s laugh out loud quality, Al. Thanks and sorry the bastards stole the presidency from you.
fuck you craig,
signed America
I’m happy for Maddon that he’ll get the chance to make more money and get a change of scenery. Coming off a season where the Rays had to rank as the largest under-performer in the game it’s likely the Rays could also use a break. I took a look at this very thing if you click on my name
Fangraphs needs an Op-Ed section.
Is Community what you’re looking for? It doesn’t get much attention, but it’s there.
http://www.fangraphs.com/community/
Actually the attention part is just my opinion… I don’t give it much attention because it’s buried, I don’t know how many people frequent it.
I very much appreciate that you didn’t try to quantify his role in wins. T
Happy for cub fans,now do they sign Lester,and maybe trade and infield prospect for pitching.
After ready Theo’s press release, at least the Cubs were very upfront with Ricky. I feel bad for the guy because he didn’t do much wrong. But his in game managing wasn’t great, expected from a first year manager. You don’t get an opportunity to get a guy like Maddon everyday. He’s the perfect Sabermetrics manager and the Cubs felt like they needed to get him.
In a case like this, it would make sense to offer him some sort of demotion to stay on staff. Is there precedent for this?
The Marlins made John Boles a VP of player development back when they hired Jim Leyland, in a kind-of-similar situation. (Kind-of and not totally-similar because Boles had worked in the Marlins FO prior to becoming manager.) This happens with “fired” GMs more often, though. They usually end up as advance scouts, or some similar “not actually in the building everyday” type of job.
It’ll be really interesting when we figure out how to quantify the effect of in-game managerial decisions. I kinda think that the impact will be much larger than expected, like framing.
bullpen usage would be a big one
I don’t think we really will, with any certainty. It’s not like the manager operates in a vacuum–they get tons of input from the coaches, players, and front office. You’d just be evaluating how they use information available to them, which may not be that reliable.
And anyway, where does it get you? In-game decisions are a fraction of a manager’s job (an UNKNOWN fraction, at that, and probably less than 50%).
As a TB fan who lives in Florida and has watched a few hundred of Joe’s post-game interviews on Sun Sports, I can assure you that he has a great grasp of every facet of player psychology who also knows how to let players have fun. He worked miracles there and baseball people know this. He may well be the greatest manager EVER. How Sternberg would let him go is beyond belief. We fans are in absolute shock.
If he can win a World Series with the Cubs he will get my rather biased vote as greatest manager ever. At the least, I will enjoy finally having coherent post-game interviews.
Great state of being, my friend.
His marketing value will more than pay for his salary. Cub fans will have high expectations and rush to buy season tickets
Cubs already have a several year waiting list for season tickets. I know, crazy, huh?
The Cubs already have a very strong season ticket base. The Cubs have had a season tickets waiting list of tens of thousands for years. Other people have dropped their tickets, however, and people who signed up for the list as a joke actually got offered tickets. But I think they still are sold out of season tickets and have a substantial waiting list.
Season ticket sales were already up about 10%. Waiting list is near 65,000. I was on this list before they signed Maddon. May never see the opportunity. But they’ll be extremely competitive for a very long time.
And by the way, if Maddon, Ep and Rickets bring a championship to the north side they’ll be remembered a lot longer than Da Coach. And his win was 30 years ago.
And and, team value will sky rocket for Rickets if they win just once. He knows this.
My brother’s name just got picked for season tickets this offseason, and he’s been on the waiting list something like six or eight years. They aren’t having any trouble selling those tickets.
I mean, I have to think you’d say the same thing about Renteria if he were still there, or anyone else, right?
Absolutely. The manager who brings a championship to the north side will forever be enshrined in Chicago lore.
Anne Sullivan was a miracle worker. Joe Maddon is not. His record in his first two seasons with Tampa was 127 and 197. And then Evan Longoria arrived, followed closely by David Price, and WOW! annus mirabilis. How odd that miracles seem to correlate to the assemblage of fantastic players.
Anyone who has been persuaded by sabermetrics knows that managers don’t mean much. What matters is the people who actually play the game. And Theo Epstein is supposed to be a Bill James type of guy. This hiring and the disgraceful firing of Renteria calls into question Epstein’s reputation. He is behaving more like a robber baron who just outbid his fellow robber barons at an auction for a trophy whose value is little more than a status symbol. He is behaving like George Steinbrenner in the 1980s. This is certainly not a move that Bill James or Billy Beane would embrace, because the costs associated with the firing of Renteria and the hiring of Maddon far outweigh the benefits of two wins over a 162 game-season that Maddon MAY be worth – although that assessment of Maddon’s value is dubious in light of Tampa’s 2014 season.
Not certain we’ll ever know the value of Maddon even if FG or someone else comes up with a calculation to rate them. His off field value supposedly is great. In the end his value or success will only be decided in October.
By the way BRH, if two wins is the difference between a one game play in or maybe even home field advantage it will be significant.
Last, I watch a fair amount of Cub baseball. Renteria was not the answer.
Terry Francona managed the Phillies for five years and never had a winning season. Then he went to Boston and won two World Series.
A guy in the Phillies front office ran into him and said, “Terry, the genius from Boston. “When you managed the Phillies, you were a dummy!”
Francona answered, “I’m still a dummy. “I just have better players.”
Remember Joe from his days in Anaheim, and there’s more than a few Angel fans who would toss Sciosca immediately to bring him back…..his accomplishments in TB speak for themselves, but my only question is how he’ll respond in a situation where success is expected, not simply a pleasant surprise. Let’s face it, nobody really cared about what the Rays were doing in Tampa, even when they were winning, and Joe could do a lot of his Dr. Strangemoves stuff without anyone getting upset when some things didn’t work…..there will be more scrutiny now that he’s been anointed the super-manager in a major market.
As far as leaving Tampa, it all goes back to the stadium issue…..as long as they play in that crypt, they’ll always have to scramble just to stay competitive, and at Joe’s age it was time to try something different.
“my only question is how he’ll respond in a situation where success is expected, not simply a pleasant surprise”
Sorry to go with the obvious joke, but…I thought he went to the Cubs?
+1 for Dr. Strangemoves and +1 to KDL.
Wait….where are the pictures?
It’s true, charisma and leadership can’t be measured quantitatively, but they can be studied in qualitative terms (e.g., ethnography). Let’s send an unemployed anthropology grad student to each team. They don’t have anything else to do.
“The Jane Goodall of Home Dugouts”
Maddon’s greatest achievement in Tampa was uniting the Red Sox and Yankees by being a bigger jerk than either of them. Sure, the Sox-Yankees rivalry was waning despite the media’s best attempts, but Maddon orchestrated his own rivalries purely for their own sake. No doubt the Cards will be in his sights next.
Saw Paul Swydan post something along these lines too. Why do Sox fans have such disdain for the guy?
Because of his repeated bush-league hijinks at every opportunity when playing the Red Sox. Sending them home last year was almost as satisfying as winning the Series.
It’s almost like a team with substantially more resources that has had more WS wins in the past few years than TB has period is sour grapes. About what, I don’t know; it could be that a large portion of the fan base lives in the Boston area.
Maddon, by his own admission, goes out of his way to foment “rivalries” with the top teams in the division to “prove the worth” of his underdog clubs. The Rays established themselves as legitimate contenders by playing good baseball, but he still felt the need to push things and encourage the same kind of behavior from his players. And he did it to enough of an extreme to drive NY and Boston together against TB (at times).
Renteria did a great job, but it’s been 107 years for the Cubs. It’s time to do whatever is necessary within the bounds of logic to get to the next level. Maddon is the guy, if anyone is. I love this. Renteria, like Sveum, will find employment and his accomplishments will be noted.
Victim of his own success. He was a transition manager and shortened the transition period by being effective. The plan was always to hire a new manager when it was felt the Cubs could compete. That time came a bit earlier and coincidentally Maddon became available.
I think Renteria has a good chance of landing another managerial job next year, or at least as a bench coach. Not like he was fired for being ineffective
Renteria was under contract until 2016, so I guess the Cubs will still have to pay him. But what if he signs with another team? Does he get two paychecks?
Yes, he would get 2 checks. However, with players when they get released whatever the new team pays gets deducted from what the old team owes. Managers don’t have a CBA though.
In the real world you get 2 checks and what the old employer owes has nothing to do with what the new employer agrees to pay
Presumably you could contract around this, no? I’m no employment lawyer, but I don’t see why you couldn’t throw in a light non-compete clause — it’s fine if you sign on with a competitor, but if you do after we have dismissed you we will only pay the difference between the salary we owed you and the salary this competitor is paying you.
I’m not a lawyer, but you could probably throw in any non-compete clause you could get the manager to sign. Some fast food restaurants make their employees sign non-compete clauses that they won’t go make sandwiches anywhere within a few miles of one of their outlets, and it applies whether you quit or got fired.
Whether a manager would sign a clause that made it more painless to fire him is another question.
The problem for the MLB teams, matt w, is that unlike the typical person who is going to work at Jimmy John’s(which is the company that has become notorious for making their minimum wage employees sign non-compete clauses) is that a prospective MLB manager is going to have an agent and/or attorney review the contract before he signs it, becasue he can afford to do this. The fast food worker most likely has the means to afford an attorney, nor the ability to pass up the job because of the clause, unlike the baseball coach.
Most non-compete clauses I’m familiar with would get thrown out if the person got fired. Apparently you’re not too worried about them competing with you if you’re willing to fire them.
In the real world, if your employer lays you off, and you find a new job, you only get 1 check.
In that same real world you speak of, guaranteed contracts don’t exist.
Bobby Valentine is probably available for the Rays. Finish in last for a couple of years and grab a protected pick to rebuild the farm. Trade Longoria for prospects and rebuild. Its not like this will impact attendance much.
Renteria is available for the Rays.
That would be hilarious and I kind of want it to happen.
The key to success as Cubs manager is this: Do you have enough history of success in the game that you are not afraid of failure? I think Maddon satisfies this criterion as well, which is critical.
The moment of truth will arrive if and when an excellent Cubs team loses a tough playoff series when the entire fan base was expecting a pennant. That situation would break most managers. It broke Baker and Piniella. If it doesn’t break Maddon, then he’s the right choice.
Maddon is accustomed to losing in the postseason, so he’ll be fine.
In other words: What is the value of Joe Maddon? Impossible to say!
I get that it’s cool to say that managers don’t matter. And it is true that managers are hired to be fired. However, I believe it may be true that we commoners simply don’t know how to value managers to begin with. And really, it’s possible only a few managers actually help their team. So it could be Bochy, Maddon, Showalter and a bunch of replacement level managers, and then a few black holes like Kirk Gibson and Ned Yost.
I don’t know, just seems like a few managers have been revolutionaries, and those guys might be worth their weight in gold, while most are just baseball men who have paid their dues. And you know, someone has to fill out the lineup card!
I think it’s obvious that managers help their team, but I think there just happens to be a ceiling to how much that can get done. A truly bad manager could obviously ruin a team. A truly bad manager is also extremely unlikely at the major league level. At the point where you’re deciding between, “Top 100 manager” and “Top 10 manager” it is just unclear as to how much that difference makes.
Is Bruce Bochy a good manager?
If you answer no, people would think you were daft. The man has managed his team to three World Series wins in five seasons.
If you answer yes, then you have to explain why he wasn’t a good manager in 1995, 1997, 1999 through 2003, 2007, 2008, and 2013. Bochy has managed 20 seasons, and in half of those seasons his teams had losing seasons, including several seasons where they were awful. Bochy’s career record would support the notion that if managing is a skill, it has less predictive value than clutch hitting.
If you say that evaluating the success or value of a manager has nothing to do with his team’s performance in the win and loss column, then perhaps you are correct. But you have completely lost everyone, because wins are how managers are judged by their employers.
If you say that managers aren’t worth that much in a 162-game-season, but they are worth their weight in gold in the postseason, then you have to conclude that by virtue of his poor postseason record, Joe Maddon is a bad manager. Or at least, Maddon is inferior to the likes of Charlie Manuel, Ron Washington and John Farrell.
According to the scoring system in Chris Jaffe’s book on baseball managers, Bruce Bochy was already among the all-time top 30 or 40 MLB field bosses *before* his extraordinary five-year run in Frisco. Yeah, surprised me too.
And apropos of nothing, am I the only one who feels just a little bit bad for that old cokehead down in Texas? (No, not George W. Bush; I’m talking Ron Washington.) Twice the man was one out away — heck, one strike away — from a radically different managerial legacy. I’m by no means a fan of Wash per se, and I’ve never followed the Rangers closely at all, but isn’t it sorta axiomatic that the man had to do quite a few things right to get to back-to-back Fall Classics?
This hiring speak less to me about the greatness of Maddon than it tells me there is a terror in Wrigley of failed expectations. Epstein once quit his job over an isssue of class, but times have changed.
There’s no lack-of-class in major professional sports in replacing anyone because you acquire upgraded personnel. It’s how the business runs.
“when it comes to specific player valuation — we have access to almost as much as the teams and executives do”
Off topic, but no you don’t. The general public has a single ball tracking system that only tracks some elements of the pitch and not the hit, and no player tracking systems. The general public has play results but very little data on release points, mechanics, and so on.
If the writers on this site had access to some of the things that are out there, I believe it would be a sabermetric revolution. And I would love to see what would come out of it.
while we don’t know exactly how teams value managers and what those managers are worth, I’m pretty sure we can come close by examining their salaries. Teams pay for FA wins at a pretty well known rate. Managers aren’t bound by any sort of salary cap and they sign contracts for teams hoping to add value to those teams. If a team wanted to improve their product on the field, they can either add better players or get a better manager. A smart team would get whichever one provided more value for less money but an even smarter team would probably just break the bank to sign the best in the league to whatever it cost since manager salaries are relatively so low.
Jeff Sullivan is the only baseball writer I can think of with a rational view on the impact of managers.
Remember when I opted out during the WS and people went ape-sh!t about it? Joe madden wears big glasses though, so it’s cool.
Maddon didn’t have his d-bag agent announce it on national TV during the telecast of the last game of the series.
and yet it dominated discussions for several days during the WS, and it was also leaked he was going to the Cubs while they still had a manager under contract.
It could have waited a few days.
Both moves were douchey, but one guy gets a pass. That’s the point.
no it couldn’t have waited a few days.
He had only 2 weeks to opt out.
The World Series isn’t some frail egg that needs protecting. Either people will watch it or they won’t…having vapid talking heads discuss Maddon on SportsCenter doesn’t detract from it.
Watching the press conference today and I started getting a Gene Hackman vibe from Maddon.
Apparently I’m about six years late on this one, so don’t rub it in.
Hackman’s a good choice. I see Spencer Tracy, too. From Desk Set specifically, or maybe Mad Mad…World.