Vladimir Guerrero Jr. Gets 500 Million Reasons to Change His Mind

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. broke off contract talks with the Blue Jays on February 17. It didn’t seem like there was any animus between the two sides at the time, but the four-time All-Star didn’t want to distract himself during his walk year by negotiating all season long. The deadline was arbitrary, but nonetheless immovable. The Blue Jays tested Guerrero’s resolve with a renewed offer on Opening Day, but he held firm.
Then he changed his mind. I try to avoid the impulse to tell baseball players what to do with their careers, but I’ll say this: $500 million is a really, really good reason to abandon one’s previous position.
Guerrero’s $500 million contract extension with the Blue Jays starts next year, runs for 14 years, and contains a full no-trade clause but no opt-outs. The intention, then, is to keep Guerrero in Toronto for the rest of his career.
By the termination of the contract in 2039, Guerrero will be 40 years old, and almost certainly will have demolished every franchise record. It’s a fairly young team, but Toronto has also had a habit of hanging onto franchise icons for only part of their careers; just 12 players have appeared in 10 or more seasons for the Blue Jays. Dave Stieb holds the record for most seasons with the Jays with 15; Guerrero will have 21 if he plays out his contract.
With his extension still a full season away, Guerrero is the active Blue Jays leader in games played (829), hits (915), plate appearances (3,585), and home runs (160). He’s more than halfway to the late Tony Fernandez’s club record in the first two categories (1,450 games, 1,583 hits), and Carlos Delgado’s record (6,018 PA) in the third. As for home runs, Vladito probably will be halfway to the club record (336, also held by Delgado) by the end of the month.
The Blue Jays currently have one retired number: 32, in honor of Roy Halladay. Guerrero’s contract is a down payment (and a huge one, if we follow the metaphor) on putting no. 27 up on the wall someday as well.
When it looked like Vladito was going to take his free agency case to market, I wrote about the paradox that made his value so difficult to pin down. On one hand, he’s 26 — and just turned 26 — and a middle-of-the-order bat with MVP upside. On the other, despite his durability (Guerrero’s missed just 12 games in the past five seasons), his relative lack of athleticism makes it difficult to project the next decade of his career with much confidence. Most mid-20s free agents who sign these super-long contracts — Alex Rodriguez, Bryce Harper, Manny Machado, Corey Seager — did so with an eventual slide down the defensive spectrum priced into the equation.
For example: Harper was a right fielder when he signed his 13-year contract with the Phillies in 2019. In fact, he’d made 59 starts in center field for the Nationals in his walk year. Injuries forced Harper into a full-time DH role for about a year’s worth of games across 2022 and 2023. Now, at 32 and halfway through the contract, Harper’s a full-time first baseman and has developed into a pretty good defender there.
Guerrero was a full-time first baseman and DH, and not a very good defender at the cold corner, at 21. I suspect that by the time this contract is over, Vladito might still own a first baseman’s mitt, but he won’t know where it is on any given day at the ballpark.
In short, I’ll repeat what I wrote two months ago: Is Guerrero more Juan Soto or more Pete Alonso?
The Jays are betting the former. This $500 million contract contains no deferred money — apparently a major sticking point in previous rounds of negotiation — and is therefore the second-richest contract in baseball history in terms of real-world value.
This is a ludicrous amount of money. It dwarfs the petty low-nine-figure deal Jackson Merrill signed last week, among the Great Extension Craze of 2025.
Having already laid out the pros and cons of Guerrero as a free agent, and having already read Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS-informed take on Guerrero’s value, which ran a week later, I don’t want to spend too much time re-surveying a landscape that hasn’t changed in a week and a half of games.
Instead, I want to tie Guerrero’s extension back to the ones Merrill and Kristian Campbell signed last week. When a top-10 global prospect reaches the majors at an age when most people are playing Beerio Kart until 4 AM, the standard procedure is for the team to lock him up to a long-term contract that eats up a couple free agent years.
Why didn’t Vladito sign a contract like that? Well, if Vladimir Guerrero Sr. had been a cab driver or a fisherman, his son probably would’ve been bowled over by the idea of making $60 million or $135 million in the first half of his career. Instead, Guerrero père was himself a Hall of Fame ballplayer, who made $125 million in salary — and this is in early 2000s money — over a 16-year big league career. The Guerreros wouldn’t be awed by the financial largesse that made Merrill a Padre for the next decade and want to stay in San Diego for life.
Moreover, Guerrero fils cashed in big, and early, by playing the market straight. At 16, he signed with the Blue Jays for $3.9 million, the fourth-largest bonus in his class. He was in the majors within four years, and by his age-23 season he was into arbitration, where he made $70.8 million over his final four years of team control.
In short, this is a guy who can afford to stay at the roulette table for another spin, rather than cashing out and going home early. Most equivalently talented players — few though they may be, there are enough to infer a general trend — are content to settle for generational financial comfort, rather than sticking it out to chase every last dollar.
One side effect of the extension trend is the dilution of the free agent pool. Ideally, if the Blue Jays had $500 million to spend on a superstar, and they had concerns about Guerrero’s athleticism or his groundball rate or his consistency, they could search the free market for another hitter who could post a 160 wRC+ or better.
The thing is: Where are you going to find one? Looking at the other standout hitters from the 2019 rookie class, Yordan Alvarez and Fernando Tatis Jr. both signed big pre-arbitration extensions. So did Ronald Acuña Jr., who might otherwise be hitting the market around now.
Actually, let’s just lay it all out there. Here are, let’s say, most of the active position players and starting pitchers who had between five and six years of service time on Opening Day. I drew an arbitrary line for quality somewhere between Lane Thomas and Harrison Bader. You’re welcome to quibble, but I hope we can all agree that if the Jays had let Guerrero walk and offered, like, Brendan Rodgers as a substitute, there would’ve been civil unrest throughout Ontario.
| Position Players | 2024 | Career | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Player | Team | Age | FA Year | G | WAR | wRC+ | G | WAR | wRC+ |
| Austin Riley | ATL | 28 | 2034 | 110 | 2.4 | 116 | 728 | 18.5 | 123 |
| Bo Bichette | TOR | 27 | 2026 | 81 | 0.3 | 71 | 619 | 16.5 | 119 |
| Bryan Reynolds | PIT | 30 | 2032 | 156 | 2.1 | 118 | 804 | 17.1 | 119 |
| Cedric Mullins | BAL | 30 | 2026 | 147 | 2.3 | 105 | 702 | 14.7 | 108 |
| Fernando Tatis Jr. | SDP | 26 | 2035 | 102 | 3.2 | 135 | 526 | 21.0 | 139 |
| Jake Cronenworth | SDP | 31 | 2031 | 155 | 2.1 | 105 | 656 | 12.4 | 108 |
| Josh Naylor | CLE | 28 | 2026 | 152 | 2.3 | 118 | 608 | 7.0 | 112 |
| Kyle Tucker | HOU | 28 | 2026 | 78 | 4.2 | 180 | 645 | 22.2 | 141 |
| LaMonte Wade Jr. | SFG | 31 | 2026 | 117 | 1.3 | 119 | 489 | 4.8 | 112 |
| Lane Thomas | 2TM | 29 | 2026 | 130 | 1.4 | 99 | 569 | 7.1 | 102 |
| Luis Arraez | 2TM | 28 | 2026 | 150 | 1.1 | 109 | 696 | 10.8 | 119 |
| Luis Robert Jr. | CHW | 27 | 2028 | 100 | 0.5 | 84 | 476 | 12.2 | 114 |
| Mike Yastrzemski | SFG | 34 | 2026 | 140 | 1.6 | 106 | 702 | 11.6 | 113 |
| Nico Hoerner | CHC | 28 | 2027 | 151 | 4.0 | 103 | 557 | 15.8 | 103 |
| Sean Murphy | ATL | 30 | 2030 | 72 | 0.8 | 78 | 510 | 16.2 | 114 |
| Vladimir Guerrero Jr. | TOR | 26 | 2040 | 159 | 5.4 | 165 | 829 | 17.0 | 137 |
| Will Smith | LAD | 30 | 2034 | 128 | 2.7 | 111 | 622 | 19.2 | 126 |
| Yordan Alvarez | HOU | 28 | 2029 | 147 | 5.3 | 168 | 638 | 23.1 | 165 |
| Pitchers | 2024 | Career | |||||||
| Player | Team | Age | FA Year | IP | WAR | ERA | IP | WAR | ERA |
| Dylan Cease | SDP | 29 | 2026 | 189 1/3 | 4.8 | 3.47 | 858 | 18.0 | 3.74 |
| Logan Webb | SFG | 28 | 2029 | 204 2/3 | 4.4 | 3.47 | 867 1/3 | 19.1 | 3.41 |
| Michael King | SDP | 30 | 2026 | 173 2/3 | 3.9 | 2.95 | 429 | 8.8 | 3.21 |
| Mitch Keller | PIT | 29 | 2029 | 178 | 2.2 | 4.25 | 711 1/3 | 9.9 | 4.63 |
| Ranger Suárez | PHI | 29 | 2026 | 150 2/3 | 3.5 | 3.46 | 604 2/3 | 11.4 | 3.42 |
| Zac Gallen | ARI | 29 | 2026 | 148 | 2.8 | 3.65 | 826 | 16.9 | 3.29 |
We’ve got 24 players here who would be first-time free agents after this season based on service time alone. Guerrero is the youngest player in this group, but he’s not the best. If these 24 players were in a draft for a potential franchise player, there’s almost no chance Guerrero would go in the top three, and a non-zero chance he falls out of the top 10.
Guerrero is ninth on this list in career WAR; I think this undersells the peak value of his bat quite a bit (he was no. 1 in WAR last year), but let’s go with that as a baseline. Of the eight players ahead of Guerrero in career WAR, six are under team control through at least 2028. In other words: The cream of the 2026 free agency class has already been skimmed off the top.
Let’s set aside all that sentimental number-retiring stuff for a second, where the kid who was born in Montreal and signed with the Jays at 16 ends up spending his whole career in Toronto and rewriting the record book. That’s a great story, and a better reason to sign a player than a lot of people recognize, but it doesn’t show up in the standings.
Instead, let’s focus on the proximate on-field issue: Toronto needs somebody who can anchor the lineup for the next five years and has money to spend to acquire one. Let’s say the Blue Jays decided Guerrero was not, in the words of the poet, that somebody. In each of the past three offseasons, there was a generational irreplaceable hitter available in free agency: Aaron Judge, then Shohei Ohtani, then Soto.
There isn’t really a guy like that this year. What’s there is Kyle Tucker, who’s awesome, and I’d trade Vladito straight up to get him without hesitation. But that’s it. There’s no backup plan. And while the Blue Jays have been in on a lot of top-tier free agents in the 2020s, they’ve never landed the biggest fish in the pond. Having lived through the Ohtani saga two offseasons ago — maybe the most excruciating free agency near-miss in baseball history, all things considered — you’d understand the Blue Jays not wanting to take that risk again.
So what are they left with? Well, an overpay, probably, especially once you figure in the last third or so of this contract. But maybe not by as much as “second-biggest contract in baseball history” would have you believe.
Let’s end by going back to Dan’s article: If Guerrero puts in another season like last year’s, even ZiPS — that merciless, pessimistic, mathematical curmudgeon — has a positive outlook.
“With a repeat of his 2024 season,” Dan wrote. “ZiPS is a lot more confident in Guerrero’s future, adding enough to get to the $400 million mark over nine years, with the rest of his career after that point tacking on another $100 million.”
Under those circumstances, ZiPS would project Guerrero to keep posting wRC+ marks in the 140s and 150s through the end of the decade, and to hit .282/.363/.447 in 2034, his age-35 season. That would be an OPS+ of 126, which is better than what Alonso posted in either of the past two seasons. Most hitters would kill for a decline phase like that.
But most of all, that’s a problem for another day. The Blue Jays locked up their best player for the rest of his career. That’s a huge positive, no matter the terms. They can figure out the rest later.
Michael is a writer at FanGraphs. Previously, he was a staff writer at The Ringer and D1Baseball, and his work has appeared at Grantland, Baseball Prospectus, The Atlantic, ESPN.com, and various ill-remembered Phillies blogs. Follow him on Twitter, if you must, @MichaelBaumann.
Is Robbie Alomar’s number not retired for the Blue Jays? Google says it is.
So his number was originally retired but then un-retired after he was placed on the MLB inelible list. https://www.mlb.com/press-release/press-release-club-statements-on-roberto-alomar
It was. I went to the game with the ceremony. But as scai said, it is no longer retired.
They could always ban it
Really? Tatis/Tucker/Yordan are the top 3 for sure, but then after Cease and maybe Austin Riley, who else is going before Vlad? 26 vs 30 makes a big difference here.
I would absolutely take him before Cease and Riley. Cease is 3 years older and Riley is 2. Hell, even Tucker is 2 years older and Yordan is nearly 2 years older. Tatis is the clear #1 but there’s definitely an argument that he is top 3 and there is absolutely a non-zero he falls out of the top 10.
Yordan very likely ages horribly, too
So does Vlad.
This thing where we assume Vlad is going to be 500lbs at some point is honestly kind of tiring.
I think it’s more of comment on if we think Yordan ages horribly we have to assume Vlad does too
Why? Yordan has already had recurring joint issues, did I miss something with Vlad?
Big-bodied guys almost always age horribly (IIRC)
I guess it depends on if you’re including the contracts or not. Vlad for $500 million until 2040, or Will Smith for $130 million until 2034? And how confident you’re getting 2024 Vlad rather than 2023.
I assumed as part of the thought experiment they’re all free agents so current contracts aren’t a factor, only hypothetical market value
To play Devil’s Advocate:
Robert and Bichette are in the same age range, have been similarly productive, and are far higher on the defensive spectrum.
And Cease and Riley are just quite a bit better.
The biggest hurdle with Cease is he’s a pitcher, so you never know when he will break.
& is Cease definitely the #1 pitcher on that list? Webb is pretty close & so consistent. King has thrown way less innings, so has Suarez, so maybe you get more years before they break. Zac Gallen is close, too. Honestly, could make a case for any of those pitchers as #1 except Keller.
But, looking at that list, I would definitely take Tatis/Yordan/Tucker/Riley over Vlad & depending on philosophy/team need it wouldn’t be a stretch to want Bichette or even Hoerner, maybe Robert, but, man those fragile guys usually do not age well.
Kyle Tucker is probably really happy to have this established as the floor for him. He’s 2 years older, but he’s a little better offensively, more consistent, and not a defensive liability.
only way Tucker even gets $400M is if he has a monster walk year. 29 year old right fielders who get a fair amount of their value from defense don’t get paid as much, although there aren’t a lot of comparables because most players of that type get extended early. My guess is he gets around $325 for 9 years.
Are you really saying that he’d make more money if he was an unathletic slug like Guerrero?
I’m saying he would make more money if he had multiple full seasons with a > 160 wRC+ like Vlad. Elite offensive production is the rarest thing in baseball, and teams pay for it.
Elite offensive production has also been fairly rare for Vlad, who’s only cracked a 120 wRC+ twice so far…which is a major problem for a DH.
I do like this deal for the Jays – they have more than enough money to ride out the back half…but I expect Tucker to get a higher AAV than Vladito, if he stays healthy and holds to his standard 145 wRC+.
How many full seasons above 120 WRC+ did Tucker have thru his age 25 season?
Guerrero has 3 and 2 of them above 160.
3
In 3 seasons.
Sure if you consider the Covid season a full season but for rate stats I would not.
he had 122 WRC+ that season in 58 games but even if you include that season than his 3 best seasons thru age 25 are 146, 130 & 122.
Guerrero has seasons thru age 25 of of 166, 165 & 132
Guerrero can’t touch Tucker on defensive value or base running but in their age 22-25 seasons Guerrero was a better hitter in far more plates appearances.
Tucker 22-25 134 WRC+ 1476 PAs
Guerrero 22-25 145 WRC+ 2783 PAs
David Ortiz wasnt an athlete in the traditional sense either, you dont have to be a gymnast or a track star to be a good hitter
He doesnt get “a fair amount of value” from his defense. He’s just not a liability.
His career wRC+ is higher than Vladito and he’s playable at positions beyond DH.
The free agent class is sparse.
Tucker has a career 141 wRC+, compared to Vladdy’s 137, and a 189 wRC+ over his last 403 PA. Superstar contracts don’t decrease after a new baseline has been established either, especially for free agents.
There’s zero chance Tucker gets less than Machado got in 2023, Lindor got in 2021, Mookie got in 2020, or Harper got in 2019. Realistic bidding starts at $400MM.
I do wonder if the trend in extensions will be cyclical: young players sign extensions, a few years later there is a smaller free agent class of guys hitting FA for the first time, so the top players get more then expected due to scarcity. Young players then sign fewer extensions as they see the riches, and then in a few years there are more players hitting free agency for the first time, and they get less than expected, leading to the young players to be more likely to sign FA deals. And so on.
Agreed. And we’re eventually going to see an unproven guy sign a $100M+ contract and than fail miserably. That will definitely give owners pause.
i wouldn’t be so sure about that. the mariners gave evan white something like $55mil in 2017 dollars as an unproven entity. he failed pretty miserably and that didn’t give front offices any pause whatsoever.
i’m sure there are more examples, this is just the first that came to my mind.
It was a 6 year, $24M deal at the end of 2019. And I’m not saying one bad contract is going to grind things to a hault but it will affect that market in some way, especially if there are multiple ones. Kind of like how there was a flurry of 10+ year contracts in the mid 2010’s than teams saw how Pujols and Cabrera’s contracts played out and there was a lull in long term contracts for a few years. Now it’s all the rage again.
Yeah, the Mariners have really been dishing out the big contracts since then
It may happen at some point, but, to really move the needle it would have to be a really big contract, like Julio Rodriguez or Bobby Witt just falling apart or something.
Unproven guys generally don’t get $100M, though. Look at what Campbell just signed for. Chourio got $80M? Merrell got $135M, but, that was off of a 5WAR rookie season.
Teams can handle if the Campbell/Chourio contract doesn’t work out.
This was always going to be how it ended up. The Blue Jays have been a major disappointment and they don’t look like they’re going to be terribly good this year either. The farm system is only okay too. If Vlad walked, everyone would get fired. So they paid him.
Is it a good move for the franchise? Doesn’t matter. Never did. It was a master class in leverage. Did anyone think he was going to get this in the offseason? If so, I would like them to point to something they wrote before April 2025.
I think there were a few people (myself included) who joked about him signing for the Angels for a very large amount of money. He does seem like a guy Arte Moreno would spend an irrational amount of money on – and if he had had a good 2024, I think a Blue Jays/Angels bidding war of desperation tops this.
It’s still a perfectly valid move for Toronto – their issue has been getting people to take their money, rather than not having enough of it.
This is how I make sense of it. There’s no opportunity cost, because they can’t convince enough good players to take their money to actually spend all of it otherwise.
FWIW, they’ll get fired if he’s not great this year.
I predicted he would get roughly this amount, but since I don’t post my every waking baseball thought on the internet, I guess I fail your little test
Well raregokus I hope you learned your lesson!
I am surprised their current brass is still there. This is supposed to be their window and they may be the worst team in the division and haven’t won a playoff game with this core.
So much of that though is players not wanting to play there, either for where it is located, or tax rates, etc.
Which is a bit wild to me – only MLB cities I’d take over Toronto are New York, SD, Chicago, Philly, DC, SEA, and maybe Boston…but I’m not from the southeast or CA, haha.
Most baseball players are conservative though. Even most Latin players.
Toronto elected Rob Ford!
This is such a massive overpay it’s hard to believe it’s real. All we have to judge value is what the rest of the league is paying. From there, I think there are two relevant comparisons from the free agent market this year.
1 – Alonso got 2/54 this offseason going into his age 30 season. Vlad is in his age 26 season. Do you think Vlad for 4 years between ages 26-29 is so amazing that you want to commit 500M; when by the time he’s Alonso’s age he’s likely a rather similar player?
2 – Vlad is ranked 49th over the last 3yrs in hitter WAR with 10.0 (pretty unremarkable, right?). Teoscar and Santander are ranked 66 & 67 with 8.4 & 8.3 war respectively. Vlad projects for ~4 war this year while Teoscar/Santander each project for roughly 3 war. They got ~ 58 & 70M (net present value) this offseason. Bat first free agents like this are always available. Is Vlad worth the huge additional commitment for the marginal upgrade?
I think the Jays will really regret this contract. Massive overpay.
The value of having a franchise player like Vladito for this particular team is so much greater than the $/WAR ratio would tell you. The Cubs held on to Ernie Banks for a decade after he was a star and are still making money off of him (to say nothing of how much more fun it is for a fan to have a player like that as part of your teams’ legacy). The Jays have orders of magnitude more money than they’d need to get this done, and even if it’s not the most efficient way to accumulate wins, I would argue the Blue Jays could not possibly overpay Vlad.
Or like, do you think Tigers fans regret having Miguel Cabrera in his peak years? Or do you think Mariners fans are glad they didn’t have Ichiro for most of the 2010’s? It actually means something to have players that mean something to your team
I think my fundamental disagreement is that IMO Vlad is at least one if not multiple tiers below the player Miggy and Ichiro were. Ichiro was a global icon and Cabrera is on the short list of greatest RH hitters ever. Guerrero thus far has been sporadically excellent while equal parts average for his career
I think that’s a totally fair critique of Vlad as a player. I would contend that he would mean less to a legacy franchise like the Yankees or Giants, but is far and away the closest thing the Jays have had to that tier of icon, and for their fans is worth that kind of commitment.
I get that it’s really, really difficult to get free agents to voluntarily choose to play in Canada, and that you’re going to have to pay a premium for your geographical disadvantage, but it’s the “icon” part that I’m having a hard time getting past. Like is he even the best Blue Jay of the last decade? He’s certainly not better than Bautista was or possibly even Encarnacion.
They are pretty comparable hitters thru their age 25 seasons.
Cabrera’s first season above a 155 WRC+ came in his age 27 season.
Guerrero already has 2 seasons above 160 WRC+
At the same time, Vladito has already beaten Miggy’s count of sub-140 wRC+ seasons between the ages of 20 and 34.
Statcast also has Miggy as a scratch defensive 1B across two seasons of innings from 33-39.
This really nails it.
The Blue Jays are banking on 2024 being Guerrero Jr’s true talent level, that he’s essentially a 5 WAR player. And they’re hoping that he ages gracefully and doesn’t fall off a cliff in his early to mid 30s like many 1B.
If it were a $50M overpay, the arguments about peak and franchise value could make sense. But I think it’s a $200M overpay — i.e., he’ll produce 30-35 WAR for the extension — and a $350M overpay if it goes bad. But we’re all speculating and we’ll know more in a year and a lot more in 3 years.
Of course the issue is Detroit got 7 years of basically no production from Miggy at the end..partly because they gave him a huge extension when he was 32. & my gut says the final 7 years of this contract may play out similarly.
But, overall your point is correct..even with those bad years, if you look at Miggy’s total time in Detroit as 1 timeframe, there is no doubt it was a huge net positive due to the great years & winning.
& the benefits extend for a long time. Even when he was bad at the end, they got extra attendance/marketing/selling Miggy merchandise from all of the milestones, will get a boost when they retire his #, he makes the HOF, they do reunions, etc.
Like Banks, Cabrera and Ichiro were superstars. Yes, I’m sure there was some value to having 2-time MVP and triple crown winner Miguel Cabrera finish his career with team. And it would have been kind of nice for Seattle to hold onto their 10-time gold glover, MVP, and two time batting champ.
But Vlad’s track record is nothing remotely like these guys, at least not yet.
Through age 25, it’s not all that different tbh.
“I would argue the Blue Jays could not possibly overpay Vlad.”
Blue Jays give Vlad $75M a year. You’d say that’s a good deal?
Without even the slightest hint of irony, absolutely
You must be a fan of one of the other AL East teams.
Hey, that would at least make sense.
Ernie Banks won back-to-back MVPs and put up 50 WAR in his 20s. The Cubs hanging onto him in his 30s is a completely different situation than the Blue Jays signing a young and occasionally great Vlad.
A lot of these comments want to compare Guerrero’s age20-25 seasons to hall of famers age 27 thru 30 seasons.
Thru age 25 Guerrero has 4 All Star games, MVP finishes of 2nd, 6th & 16th plus a gold glove which even as a Guerrero fan I fully admit shouldn’t matter because he is not a gold glove defender haha
Ernie Banks thru age 25 had 2 All Star games & MVP finishes of 3rd, 16th & 28th.
I’m saying that the reason that having Ernie Banks around in his 30s was okay (or even better) with the Cubs is that he was incredible in his late 20s. Vlad has yet to be anywhere near that great and we don’t know if he will get there. So Banks is a bad comp.
Rogers Communications won’t even notice the outlay on their spreadsheet.
Their main problem has been convincing people to sign with them, when there’s a good-enough offer elsewhere.
I bet they could have gotten a lot of star players’ attention with $500 mil, though.
Feel like the framework to use would be $36m a year through age 40…and it does seem like they’ve made offers in that range to folks who decided to stay stateside.
It’s the Soto effect. Is Vlad 2/3 the player Soto is? Surely he is, so why not pay him 2/3 of what Soto got? This is done ignoring that while Soto is an amazing player, he was also an overpay. If Soto got $600 million instead, would Vlad have gotten $500 million? Soto will end up making his union compatriots more money than he makes himself.
I mean…they’re the same age and Soto has more than double the WAR in just 540 more PA.
Not to mention that while Soto’s not a good RF…he’s much better there than than Vladito is at 1B, haha!
Well, that would only further prove that this is an overpay and is somewhat beside the point. Though using career WAR doesn’t tell you how good they are now and as you note at least a little of that is driven by PAs. Zips projected Soto to be 6.4 WAR this year and Vlad to be 4.4 WAR, which is pretty close to 2/3. But again, my real point is how the Soto “overpay” has reset the market and will make a lot of other players more money (which I’m all for, owners should be opening up their wallets, buncha cheapskates).
Oh, for sure – on both counts!
But really, I think Vlad Jr is going to be replacement level or worse for almost half of this contract. Before my back of the napkin calculation was that the upper limit of a deal for him should be a 7 year, $315M deal because after that it wasn’t clear he would be any good.
You can absolutely give him more money than that if you stretch it out over more years, but is it worth paying an extra $185M to lower the yearly hit by about $10M a year? I honestly don’t know the answer to that question but if one of you net present value wizards want to take a crack at it I would be very interested in seeing what you can work up.
Sure, it’s not like inflation’s going down any time soon!
Well said on the problem. 7/$315 might be OK. The deal ends before he’s likely to really fall off and you might get enough 5-win seasons to balance out a couple bad years and get 30 WAR, paying a slight premium. But then the deal tacks on 7/$185 and you’re paying $26M/year for a 34-40 year old DH who’s likely not good the first few years and replacement level at the end.
Deferring $9M/year by 7 years helps a little, but it’s still a ton of money.
I would presume Vlad would consider the money as one collective reason, not each dollar as a separate reason. But it is fun to imagine him with with a list of 499,999,999 reasons to leave Toronto.
I loathe the “500 million reasons” trope. One dollar alone isn’t a reason. A million dollars alone isn’t a reason.
Not sure if you are responding to Kenkenken or Mr Baumann. However Michael says in the article that 500 million is a really good reason to stay. As far as I can see there is just one huge perfectly acceptable reason. Lots of money! Not 500 million little reasons….
Correction! My bad! I was looking all through the article for 500 million little reasons and it was in the heading…..duh!
Yeah, just the heading.
Just so I’m understanding this correctly, 6 weeks ago Dan wrote an article about a Vlad extension and the general consensus was $340M was too much. 39 ABs and a 93 wRC+ later and now we’re feeling like $500M is pretty reasonable.
That’s just ZIPS’ take. Different analysts have different takes using different methods.
That said, he was a roughly average player in 2023. And a bad-body player. Didn’t matter that much for Vlad Sr but Jr is even beefier. I expect bad first base D for him.
Which, for me, means this.
“By the termination of the contract in 2039, Guerrero will be 40 years old, and almost certainly will have demolished every franchise record”
is one hell of a speculation.
I don’t think you realize how attainable most franchise records are for the Blue Jays. The franchise’s top 2 players in WAR (by a large margin) are Halladay and Stieb, both pitchers. Guerrero only needs 19 WAR total to pass José Bautista for most WAR as a position player. He needs 176 homers, 666 hits, 547 RBIs, and 479 runs for those respective records. If the rest of this season and the next 14 years of the contract he averages 1.3 WAR, 12 HR, 45 hits, 37 RBIs, and 32 runs, he catches all of those.
I can see a world where he doesn’t manage the WAR and HR records just because he ends up below replacement and benched, but I think it’s probably a slam dunk that he ends with all of those, as that’s hardly necessitating him dominating over the next decade. It’s just a reflection of him being called up very young and being one of exceedingly few all star-level players to stick with the Blue Jays long term.
What Dan wrote was IF Vlad Jr’s 2025 matches his 2024 then ZiPS expects him to be really good from 2026-2029 and thus 14/$500 is reasonable. But that “if” is doing a ton of heavy lifting and that’s just one projection.
Agreed. What I’m referring to is all the comments in the previous article stating $340M is too much. I was one of very few dissenting voices and suggested he would get 13/$450M in free agency and got downvoted.
It’s a fine deal for Toronto, who are insanely wealthy and have been consistently been coming in second place for FAs whom they offered more money.
It would be an insane overpay on the FA market, though.
I see this. I think it’s a little like a mini version of the Mets and Soto. The Mets needed to outbid the Yankees for Uncle Stevie to assert that they are no longer little brother (they still are, but they can at least pretend). The Jays just needed to sign a big free agent, which this basically was. They also needed a homegrown star to stay there.
During Vlad The Junior’s relevant four year prime covering his age 22-25 seasons he has 2,783 PA | 145 wRC+ | -68.8 DEF | 16.3 WAR. Out of 184 players on the FanGraphs leaderboards to get at least 2,000 PAs in their age 22-25 seasons since 1970 those 2,783 PAs are 9th and that 145 wRC+ is 12th, but the defense knocks the 16.3 WAR down to 65th.
I thought it might be interesting to use that leaderboard as a jumping off point to see how some similar players did from age 26 onward. Here goes…
Will Clark 22-25
2,410 PA | 152 wRC+ | -23.1 DEF | 19.8 WAR
Will Clark 26-36
5,873 PA | 129 wRC+ | -92.8 DEF | 32.2 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 36 | 146 wRC+ | 3.8 WAR
Don Mattingly 22-25
2,436 PA | 148 wRC+ | -31.2 DEF | 19.7 WAR
Don Mattingly 26-34
5,273 PA | 113 wRC+ | -45.5 DEF | 21.2 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 28 | 127 wRC+ | 3.7 WAR
Darryl Strawberry 22-25
2,274 PA | 146 wRC+ | -42.2 DEF | 16.7 WAR
Darryl Strawberry 26-37
3,579 PA | 131 wRC+ | -31.7 DEF | 22.0 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 29 | 143 wRC+ | 4.2 WAR
Jose Canseco 22-25
2,217 PA | 144 wRC+ | -28.3 DEF | 16.8 WAR
Jose Canseco 26-36
5,130 PA | 127 wRC+ | -128.9 DEF | 21.9 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 31 | 143 wRC+ | 3.0 WAR
Vlad The Senior 22-25
2,346 PA | 143 wRC+ | -4.3 DEF | 19.0 WAR
Vlad The Senior 26-36
6,686 PA | 134 wRC+ | -111.2 DEF | 35.6 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 32 | 143 wRC+ | 3.2 WAR
Miguel Cabrera 22-25
2,725 PA | 143 wRC+ | -34.1 DEF | 19.1 WAR
Miguel Cabrera 26-40
8,040 PA | 140 wRC+ | -137.3 DEF | 46.5 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 33 | 153 wRC+ | 5.3 WAR
Jim Rice 22-25
2,693 PA | 141 wRC+ | -42.2 DEF | 18.1 WAR
Jim Rice 26-36
6,290 PA | 123 wRC+ | -62.3 DEF | 32.8 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 33 | 133 wRC+ | 5.5 WAR
Manny Ramirez 22-25
2,205 PA | 141 wRC+ | -52.3 DEF | 13.6 WAR
Manny Ramirez 26-39
7,510 PA | 157 wRC+ | -221.1 DEF | 53.4 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 36 | 165 wRC+ | 5.9 WAR
Jack Clark 22-25
2,216 PA | 140 wRC+ | -30.7 DEF | 14.5 WAR
Jack Clark 26-36
5,412 PA | 142 wRC+ | -115.4 DEF | 33.2 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 34 | 167 wRC+ | 4.3 WAR
John Olerud 22-25
2,210 PA | 139 wRC+ | -8.4 DEF | 16.8 WAR
John Olerud 26-36
6,424 PA | 127 wRC+ | -28.0 DEF | 39.0 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 33 | 144 wRC+ | 4.5 WAR
Eddie Murray 22-25
2,482 PA | 139 wRC+ | -30.0 DEF | 17.1 WAR
Eddie Murray 26-41
9,669 PA | 125 wRC+ | -105.5 DEF | 51.9 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 34 | 156 wRC+ | 5.9 WAR
Prince Fielder 22-25
2,742 PA | 138 wRC+ | -74.3 DEF | 12.6 WAR
Prince Fielder 26-32
4,049 PA | 131 wRC+ | -98.0 DEF | 14.7 WAR
Last Good Year: Age 28 | 153 wRC+ | 5.0 WAR
Those are the 12 retired guys on the leaderboard who were closest by wRC+ and had negative defensive value. I’d say three of those outcomes would be “worth” the contract – Miggy, Murray, and Manny – though we know that Manny comes with a sizable asterisk.
The five guys in the 30 WAR range would probably be a fine outcome, though most of them were done being worth that kind of money by age 33/34. That leaves four guys in the disaster zone.
I guess the other hopeful comp would be David Ortiz who went off for 8,864 PA | 145 wRC+ | -213.0 DEF | 49.9 WAR from age 26-40 with his Last Good Year coming at Age 40 with a 163 wRC+ and 4.6 WAR. *Individual mileage on asterisks may vary here*
Also wanted to look at just the component hitting stats to see if I could find the closest stylistic comp from age 22-25 for Vlad The Junior at 123 BB+ | 67 K+ | 120 AVG+ | 140 ISO+
Vlad The Senior
77 BB+ | 71 K+ | 119 AVG+ | 166 ISO+
(not enough walks, too much power)
Alex Bregman
152 BB+ | 65 K+ | 113 AVG+ | 138 ISO+
(too many walks, not enough hits)
John Olerud
156 BB+ | 81 K+ | 115 AVG+ | 139 ISO+
(same deal as above, plus more Ks)
Mookie Betts
114 BB+ | 59 K+ | 119 AVG+ | 133 ISO+
(completely different physicality and athleticism, but closest across the board)
Sometimes I think we try so hard to find the perfect comp but I feel like the most obvious one has been staring us right in the face the whole time. His career has been very similar to his Dad in many ways. If he’s going to age similarly to anyone above, my moneys on the one he shares his genes with.
“The five guys in the 30 WAR range would probably be a fine outcome,..”
30 WAR would be a fine outcome for VGJ’s career and put him in consideration for the Hall of Fame. But it would be an awful outcome for $500M.
$500m ain’t what it used to be…and Toronto is a financial powerhouse.
If Vlad Sr. had been a fisherman, I’d watch his fishing show. Especially episode 6, “Vlad Goes Noodling”
Rogers Communications undoubtedly saw this as a marketing investment, as there is no chance that they genuinely believe Jr. the player is worth even $400 million, and I’m not sure that I can disagree with that rationale. It is a massive overpay, but one the second richest owners in MLB can afford to eat without it having the kind of effect on payroll that the Chris Davis albatross had on the Orioles.
I see this comment a lot. The Jays, while having rich ownership, have never really been big spenders, and that was always a mark of criticism against them. I know they’ve missed out on big FAs the last few years, but it’s not as if they’ve only been owned by Rogers for five years.
With the arms race heating back up in baseball between the top spenders, Rogers will likely need to spend a lot more than they traditionally have, and history suggests that they won’t do that.
Toronto is consistently above the league median in payroll, with 2019 and 2020 being the only exceptions over the last decade.
I will admit I am surprised to see that they’re 5th in payroll this season, it doesn’t feel like they are.
In the past though, as the only team in Canada and with a monopoly in the market, I’d argue that they underspent. Yes, they have missed on some FAs that would have brought it up, but even during their last great run in 15/16, they didn’t really have many big contracts other than the Marlins castoffs from that trade, whom they moved one of for Tulo.
They definitely flexed the muscles here – $375m signing bonus!
I sincerely hope this contract doesn’t turn out to be the disaster that I think it will. It’ll be great for the Jays and great for baseball if they have a superstar to serve as the face of their franchise for a decade, but for that to happen, he needs to be a superstar and not the next Prince Fielder. Would love to be wrong but I think this is probably going to be the worst contract of the decade.
Dave Stieb’s number should be retired
This!
I can’t help but think this is a really bad deal for the Blue Jays. Vladi will likely get heavy again and see his numbers tumble. His production so far is as inconsistent as his weight. And now he has much less incentive to stay thin and produce the great numbers that he is capable of.
Does he have less incentive? Human motivation is weird – and maybe he feels very incentivised to show that he is worth the contract. And I’d imagine, he might want to join his dad in Cooperstown too in 2045 (although that does look quite unlikely so far).
There’s a lot of discussion in this thread about the value of having a franchise icon signed to spend the rest of his career with the team. And as nice as that is, in a way, there’s a large downside that is not being discussed. You’re paying Vlad the $500 mil mainly for how great he’ll be the next 7-10 years. But he will still be on your roster for 4-7 years after that period as a player with little to no value. All that good will you have from fans will also mean they want to see him play and will be angry if you release him. And even though it doesn’t really make sense, the team will feel compelled to play him since they are paying him $35 mil/year.
Rogers Communications aren’t trying to win the EPL or buy the Penguins.
How do we know that?
Because they already own every team in Toronto, haha.
I’m not sure how that relates to not wanting a bad player on your roster for 4-7 years.
They don’t care, because their biggest issue over the last few years has been not being able to spend enough of their money!
They’re in the LT with *this* roster, haha.
And this has aged like milk – after this year, their cash outlay on him will be $12.5m/year.
This is how financial big dogs play – it’s the difference between Jeff Lurie and John Henry.
If I were the Blue Jays and I was concerned that any other teams valued Vlad at anything close to $500 mil, I would find out who those teams were and trade him to one of them. A player that great would bring back an incredible return, even for just one year plus the window to sign him.
They probably did gauge his trade value.
Of course they did. I’m saying if anyone else thinks he’s worth anywhere near this contract, I would have preferred to trade him.
ZiPS doesn’t really have positive outlook, though. ZiPS doesn’t think he’ll repeat 2024. And because of that, he will be worth more like $275 mil.
I’m also curious about that $100 mil tack on. ZiPS projects Vlad to be worth $100 mil for ages 36-40? Even with inflation, that looks like he’d have to be an averagish player fro at least age 36-38.
Where does this deal leave the Cubs and Kyle Tucker?
If the problem really is that no one will take Toronto’s money, it seems like there are other ways to improve your team than overpay for a single player.
How about you trade for Anthony Rendon + Caden Dana + ?. Or Xander Bogaerts + Yu Darvish + Ethan Salas + ?
Good stuff, Michael.
Though it strains credulity to think Vlad would rank any lower than 5th or 6th here, and that’s assuming teams would give a pitcher a 10+ year deal (which none would).
It’s Tucker, Tatis, Yordan ahead of him—two of whom have been anything but the picture of health. Robert, Mullins, Bichette are not plausibly in his class due to health, platoon splits, health etc.
I also wonder if we correctly value the present vs future dollars/luxury cap cost. Do we properly discount the rate that a player of his caliber would garner in 2029-2030 dollars when we analyze the cost of these deals?
325 million signing bonus without Canadian taxes somehow?!?!
Makes everything make sense on both sides!
People don’t actually understand how rich Rogers is, unless they’ve ever worked in telco and understand what it means that Canada has no CLECs.