You’ll Never Guess Where Yadier Molina Signed
In a move that had become a foregone conclusion, on Monday Yadier Molina and the Cardinals finalized a one-year deal that returns the iconic catcher to the only team he’s ever known. The agreement caps an eventful 11-day stretch that included the return of longtime Cardinals righty Adam Wainwright, who was also a free agent, as well as the blockbuster trade that landed Nolan Arenado. While Molina’s new deal doesn’t ensure that he’ll end his career in St. Louis, it’s clear that the 38-year-old backstop is eying the finish line.
Drafted out of a Puerto Rico high school by the Cardinals in the fourth round in 2000, Molina had never tested free agency before thanks to a trio of multiyear extensions, the latest of which was a three-year, $60 million deal signed in April 2017. His new contract thus represents a significant pay cut, as he’ll get $9 million for the 2021 season, with no additional incentives or options. Then again, with 1,989 games caught so far — a total that’s sixth on the all-time list — he’s not the player he once was.
Molina hit a thin .262/.303/.359 with four homers in 156 PA in 2020, and walked a career low 3.8% of the time. His on-base percentage was his lowest mark since 2006, and both his slugging percentage and his 82 wRC+ were his lowest since 2015. His 84.7 mph average exit velocity was his lowest of the Statcast era; that figure placed him the fourth percentile overall, as did his 25.4% hard-hit rate. You’ll be shocked to learn — unless you’ve been following more than a decade’s worth of jokes on my Twitter account about the glacial movement of Molina and his older brothers José and Bengie — that his sprint speed finally reached the first percentile after years of… slow decline.
It’s defense that’s Molina’s calling card, of course, but even that’s in decline, particularly his signature skill of pitch framing. While he’s third in FanGraphs’ version of framing runs with 147 since 2008 (the beginning of the PITCHf/x era) behind Russell Martin and Brian McCann, and fourth in Baseball Prospectus’ version (149 runs), with brother José just three runs ahead, he’s been more or less average in that department according to multiple methodologies in the past three seasons:
| Year | Innings | FG | BP | SIS | Statcast | Avg |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2015 | 1149.2 | 8.8 | 11.9 | 2 | 8 | 8 |
| 2016 | 1218.1 | 9.5 | 10.4 | 3 | 11 | 8 |
| 2017 | 1125.2 | 1.8 | 6.4 | 4 | 7 | 5 |
| 2018 | 1017.2 | 1.6 | 2.3 | 1 | -4 | 0 |
| 2019 | 939.1 | 1.8 | 0.3 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 2020 | 337.1 | 1.1 | 2.2 | 0 | 2 | 1 |
| 2018-20 | Per 1000 | 2.0 | 2.1 | 0 | -1 | 1 |
Via Statcast, which publishes breakdowns showing the percentage of called strikes in eight different segments of the shadow zone (the region bordering the strike zone), Molina remains well above average when it comes to working inner and outer edges of the plate. He’s less consistent from year to year when it comes to high and low strikes, though he had his best showing of the past six seasons when it came to snatching strikes below the zone.

Though ever-increasing strikeout rates have made framing a larger part of a catcher’s job than ever before, catcher defense is more than that; there’s blocking and throwing as well as fielding the occasional bunt, pop-up, and play at the plate. Per DRS (the version used at Baseball-Reference that doesn’t include framing), he was one run above average last year, and right at average over the past three seasons, while via BP’s framing-inclusive stat, he was 2.3 runs above average last year, and 7.3 above average over the past three seasons (3.1 per 1,000 innings). Coupled with the diminishing returns from his bat — a drop from a 105 wRC+ in 2018 to 87 in ’19 and then the aforementioned 82 — that hasn’t yielded great value overall: 0.3 bWAR, 0.5 fWAR, and 0.7 WARP in 2020, with prorated three-year figures of 1.4 bWAR, 1.8 fWAR, and 2.4 WARP, respectively.
Even so, when projections for Molina range from 1.0 in 414 PA (ZiPS) to 1.2 in 400 PA (BP’s PECOTA) to 1.5 WAR in 389 PA (Steamer), it’s not as though one year and $9 million constitutes a ridiculous overpay, not when James McCann brought home four years and $40 million and is projected for 0.8 to 1.3 WAR in the aforementioned systems. Sure, somebody like Jason Castro, who returned to the Astros on a two-year, $7 million deal and projects for 0.3 to 1.0 WAR in considerably less playing time, might outplay Molina, but then again he might not. There are no bad one-year deals, at least not for franchise legends who would have looked very strange in another uniform.
Molina had his suitors; as I noted last week, the Angels, Mets, Padres, and Yankees were interested, but he couldn’t find a fit to his liking. Additionally, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch’s Derrick Goold reported that the Phillies were prepared to court him if they couldn’t re-sign J.T. Realmuto. Molina, for his part, considered retiring if he couldn’t find the right deal.
Which, inevitably, brings us to his legacy, and the possibility of reaching Cooperstown. Molina is often spoken of as a future Hall of Famer by fans and high-profile media alike, and it’s understandable given his nine Gold Gloves, nine All-Star selections, key role on two World Series winners and two other pennant winners (though he was a backup in 2004 and got just three PA as Boston swept) not to mention seven other playoff teams. His Hall of Fame Monitor score of 166 captures all of that and explains the presumption of a plaque; players in that vicinity who aren’t in are either not yet eligible (Adrián Beltré at 163), linked to PEDs (Rafael Palmeiro at 178, Mark McGwire at 170, Gary Sheffield at 158), or both (David Ortiz at 171).
That said, I’ve generally regarded Molina’s case with a more skeptical eye, mainly due to his modest showing in JAWS, based on B-Ref’s version of WAR. His 40.4 career WAR and 34.6 JAWS both rank 23rd among catchers, while his 28.8 peak WAR is 24th; those rankings outdo either three or four Hall of Famers. He’s nearly 10 points below the standard (44.2) in JAWS.
Again, those figures don’t account for framing, and since we know Molina is at the very least an elite framer for his era, we’re doing his case a disservice if we don’t try to account for that; as with relievers, this is a case where off-the-shelf JAWS won’t do. Two years ago, right after FanGraphs had introduced Jared Cross’ pitch framing values, I patched together a methodology to illustrate that Martin and McCann at the very least belong on the same plane as Molina. It’s worth revisiting that.
Where FanGraphs’ pitch framing numbers only go back to 2008, covering the PITCHf/x and Statcast eras, Baseball Prospectus has a pre-PITCHf/x version of framing that goes back to 1988, the start of the pitch count era. As far as Hall of Famers go, those framing stats only cover the last few years of Carlton Fisk’s career, which ended in 1993, though between that version and the more recent numbers, we have the full careers of Ivan Rodriguez and Mike Piazza covered. The former, considered by many to be the best defensive catcher ever, was not much of a framer but the latter, often derided for perceived defensive shortcomings — centered mainly around his meager 23% caught stealing rate — was an excellent framer.
What I’ve done is create a FanGraphs WAR-based version of JAWS for catchers, using BP’s pre-2008 numbers and our runs-to-win converter to adjust the seasonal and career WARs for the relevant backstops. Updating the table I created two years ago:
| Player | Career | WAR | FG Fram | BP Fram | WAR Adj | fWAR | fPeak | fJAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mike Piazza | 1992-2007 | 63.7 | n/a | 87.2 | 8.4 | 72.1 | 52.5 | 62.3 |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 1991-2011 | 69.2 | 2.9 | -14.1 | -1.5 | 67.7 | 40.0 | 53.9 |
| Buster Posey | 2009-2019 | 52.6 | 123.4 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 52.6 | 46.8 | 49.7 |
| Joe Mauer | 2004-2018 | 52.5 | 27.6 | 38.3 | 3.8 | 56.3 | 42.4 | 49.3 |
| Russell Martin | 2006-2019 | 55.2 | 165.7 | 33.7 | 3.3 | 58.5 | 39.8 | 49.1 |
| Yadier Molina | 2004-2020 | 54.5 | 147.4 | 30.0 | 2.9 | 57.4 | 39.5 | 48.5 |
| Brian McCann | 2005-2019 | 54.5 | 165.6 | -11.3 | -1.1 | 53.4 | 39.9 | 46.7 |
| Jorge Posada | 1995-2011 | 40.4 | -43.9 | -69.5 | -6.7 | 33.7 | 29.5 | 31.6 |
That version puts Molina within a couple points of Mauer, who via JAWS is a clear Hall of Famer, but it also illustrates how framing elevates the now-retired Martin and McCann as well as the still-active Posey, who missed a good chunk of 2019 and opted out last year but has nonetheless has packed himself quite a Hall resumé. Molina is the only other one from that group besides Mauer to reach the 2,000 hit threshold, which will almost certainly make Martin (1,416 hits) and McCann (1,590) tough sells to voters once they become eligible in 2025, and I do worry about Posey (1,380 hits through age 33), his three championships, MVP and Rookie of the Year awards notwithstanding.
While we can produce a relative ranking via this methodology, we don’t really have standards to compare them to the way we do with B-Ref WAR-based JAWS, where Rodriguez ranks third, Piazza fifth, and Mauer seventh, all above the standard, while Posey, Molina, and Martin are well below. In an attempt to square the two resources to illustrate the impact of framing, I’ve created a 50-50 blend using the two versions of JAWS, giving some credit to those who excel in this area while trying to avoid unduly penalizing the players for whom we lack such data. Here’s an updated look at how that shakes out:
| Rk | bRk | Player | Career | Peak | JAWS | fWAR | fPeak | fJAWS | wJAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1 | Johnny Bench+ | 75.2 | 47.2 | 61.2 | 61.2 | |||
| 2 | 2 | Gary Carter+ | 70.1 | 48.4 | 59.2 | 59.2 | |||
| 3 | 5 | Mike Piazza+ | 59.6 | 43.1 | 51.4 | 72.1 | 52.5 | 62.3 | 56.9 |
| 4 | 3 | Ivan Rodriguez+ | 68.7 | 39.8 | 54.3 | 67.7 | 40.0 | 53.9 | 54.1 |
| 5 | 4 | Carlton Fisk+ | 68.4 | 37.6 | 53.0 | 53.0 | |||
| 6 | 6 | Yogi Berra+ | 59.5 | 38.0 | 48.8 | 48.8 | |||
| 7 | 7 | Joe Mauer | 55.3 | 39.0 | 47.2 | 56.3 | 42.4 | 49.3 | 48.3 |
| 8 | 8 | Bill Dickey+ | 57.3 | 36.0 | 46.6 | 46.6 | |||
| 9 | 19 | Buster Posey | 41.8 | 36.6 | 39.2 | 52.6 | 46.8 | 49.7 | 44.5 |
| Avg HOF C | 53.6 | 34.8 | 44.2 | 44.2 | |||||
| 10 | 9 | Gabby Hartnett+ | 56.9 | 31.1 | 44.0 | 44.0 | |||
| 11 | 10 | Ted Simmons+ | 50.3 | 34.8 | 42.6 | 42.6 | |||
| 12 | 11 | Mickey Cochrane+ | 49.1 | 36.0 | 42.6 | 42.6 | |||
| 13 | 24 | Yadier Molina | 40.4 | 28.8 | 34.6 | 57.4 | 39.5 | 48.5 | 41.5 |
| 14 | 12 | Thurman Munson | 46.0 | 37.0 | 41.5 | 41.5 | |||
| 15 | 27 | Russell Martin | 38.7 | 27.3 | 33.0 | 58.5 | 39.8 | 49.1 | 41.1 |
| 16 | 13 | Gene Tenace | 46.8 | 35.0 | 40.9 | 40.9 | |||
| 17 | 14 | Buck Ewing+ | 48.0 | 30.7 | 39.4 | 39.4 | |||
| 18 | 15 | Bill Freehan | 44.7 | 33.7 | 39.2 | 39.2 | |||
| 19 | 17 | Wally Schang | 47.9 | 27.6 | 37.8 | 37.8 | |||
| 20 | 32 | Brian McCann | 31.9 | 24.7 | 28.3 | 53.4 | 39.9 | 46.7 | 37.5 |
| 21 | 19 | Roger Bresnahan+ | 42.1 | 30.4 | 36.3 | 36.3 | |||
| 22 | 21 | Darrell Porter | 40.9 | 29.1 | 35.0 | 35.0 | |||
| 23 | 22 | Roy Campanella+ | 35.6 | 34.3 | 35.0 | 35.0 | |||
| 24 | 18 | Jorge Posada | 42.7 | 32.6 | 37.7 | 33.7 | 29.5 | 31.6 | 34.6 |
| 25 | 23 | Jim Sundberg | 40.5 | 28.7 | 34.6 | 34.6 | |||
| 28 | 28 | Ernie Lombardi+ | 39.5 | 25.0 | 32.2 | 32.2 | |||
| 31 | 30 | Ray Schalk+ | 33.0 | 25.6 | 29.3 | 29.3 | |||
| 41 | 41 | Rick Ferrell+ | 31.1 | 21.1 | 26.1 | 26.1 |
By including even partial credit for framing, Posey rockets past the Hall standard, and Molina at least winds up in the ballpark, at a level where the weight of more subjective factors can push a candidate over the line. He’s tied with Munson, for whom I’ve made the case in the context of the Modern Baseball Era Committee, though the latter’s candidacy — which features MVP and Rookie of the Year awards, seven All-Star appearances, three Gold Gloves, and two championships — is more akin to Posey’s on the traditional merits, except with a tragic end at age 32. Molina, who has over 700 more games caught than Munson, is Rodriguez Lite, reliant upon longevity and defense but with lesser offense (98 OPS+ to Rodriguez’s 106) over a lengthy career that’s still shorter by nearly 2,500 PA and 400-some games caught.
Even with this cobbled-together methodology, I’m not sold enough on Molina’s candidacy that I’d include him on my ballot, but at this point, I no longer think we’re talking about one as polarizing as those of Omar Vizquel (even before the domestic abuse allegations) or Jack Morris. Vizquel, even given his longevity and collection of Gold Gloves, ranks 41st in JAWS among shortstops, four spots below the lowest-ranked Hall of Famer, Rabbit Maranville; he’s a lousy choice. Morris ranks 169th in JAWS among starting pitchers ahead of only five of the 65 enshrined. Molina, even with the framing data, would rank among the lower half of Hall of Fame catchers but nowhere near the bottom, though it’s a pity we’ll never have enough data to get a full comparison; I do wonder if there’s any signal to tease out in a WOWY comparison of pitcher strikeout and walk rates for pre-1988 catchers, but I don’t have the chops to pull that off. Long story short, I don’t see a future of pounding the table not to vote for Molina, even if he’s not my cup of tea.
Back to present-day concerns, in a division where the Cubs, Reds and Pirates appear more intent on chasing mediocrity than a playoff berth, the return of Molina bolsters the Cardinals’ chances. By our current projections, both they and the Brewers look like they’ll barely clear .500; at this writing, we have St. Louis projected for 81.5 wins and Milwaukee for 81.4. I do think that given Molina’s age, a lot will depend upon the performance of his backup, whether that’s Andrew Knizner or somebody better. Knizner, a 26-year-old former seventh-round pick who only took up catching in his sophomore year at North Carolina State, rated as a 45 Future Value prospect heading into last season but also stands out as a poor receiver, both in terms of scouting grades (30 present, 35 future) and framing stats (-4.5 runs in 156 major league inning). It does not bode well when Eric Longenhagen writes a Graduation TLDR summary like this: “If Knizner could catch, he’d be an everyday player, but he’s scuffled during the fits and starts of his early big league career.” Maybe another season of Molina’s tutelage will lead to a breakthrough, but more likely, the Cardinals will need to go shopping if anything major befalls their starter. Tyler Flowers, who’s still a free agent, would make sense, but after taking a back seat to Travis d’Arnaud last year, might want a more substantial slice of playing time. In a division that looks to be a race to the middle, every edge counts, but even now, Molina’s return might be enough to help the Cardinals to another playoff appearance.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Still like to think Knizer will turn out to be a league averageish catcher, but of course the Cardinals real hope is that Ivan Herrera will be the answer here.
I think Knizner projects like a very good #2 catcher, or a solid “time splitting” option. I had hoped my Birds would sign Curt Casali on the cheap, and try the time splitting thingy. Oh well. Fan service, and all that.
I’m here for both the user name and profile pic
Hate to double post, but surprised to not see Jason Kendall on that JAWS list anywhere; I thought that he was super underrated and, thought it even more so when I looked at the list of games caught with Molina just behind him.
Sadly, the framing stats do not flatter Kendall at all, with -17.4 runs in FG framing a honking -97.8 in pre-2008 BP framing, and 26.5 fJAWS, about 10 points below his JAWS. Thus he slipped from 20th in JAWS to 29th in the weighted version; I cut the table off at 25 except for the Hall of Famers who ranked below.
Perhaps helping the likes of Darrell Porter & Jim Sundberg to rise? While I saw both play, what I remember is the adults talking about what great catchers both of them were, especially Porter who excelled not just defensively but was adept at both OBP & SLG. {Combining them as OPS might be new-fangled, but even to the fans in the stands the value of each/both is old hat!}
I’ve always been a bigger Hall kind of guy — I think overall production should be a significant factor, but I would also reward guys who rack up individual rewards. Molina’s nine Gold Gloves ranks third all-time at catcher, he’s got nine All-Star appearances, and let’s throw in a Silver Slugger award for good measure.
Defensively, it’s much harder to evaluate Molina. How do you factor in his pitch selection and game calling, which has been championed by pitchers since his rookie year? How do you evaluate the dearth of stolen base attempts against the Cardinals with Molina behind the plate? There’s a HUGE gap between the first-place Cardinals and the next team. There has to be positive value added there, right?
Added up, I think it all gives you a Hall of Fame player. Molina’s baseball card stats get him 90% of the way there, and his intangibles (though I normally hate that term when used to describe baseball players) push him across the finish line. I wouldn’t argue much with anyone who doesn’t think he should get in, of course.
Public perception and individual awards should definitely be a bonus in my book…it’s the Hall of Fame Baseball Museum, and it wouldn’t be a very good museum if we omitted players who were only in retrospect shown to not have earned their playing days’ reputations. This is most of my case for considering guys like Vizquel, Garvey, and Mattingly; on the other hand, we’d be best to remember that pushing too far down this line of thought is exactly how Baines got in.
I do disagree with your last statement though. I think Molina’s baseball card stats get him like 30% of the way there and his longevity alone gets him on the ballot. Those “intangibles” (a word which I also hate) coupled with his very real trophy room make him borderline.
30% is kind of low. I might be willing to go down to 80%, but that’s a stretch. Fangraphs has him 11th all-time in catcher WAR, for what it’s worth.
Yeah but WAR is generally thought of as the opposite of a baseball card stat. Those tend to be BA, HR, RBI, H, and R. Which, agreed, might get him 30% of the way to Cooperstown.
Do any of the defensive numbers include how teams just don’t run on Molina? I’m sure it likely included SB and CS but the fact that SBA are so low vs Molina makes me think he is preventing teams from even trying to do anything on the base paths.
And does this prevent teams from going 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home? I’m not sure if there is a defensive stat shows how often a team prevents other teams from taking the extra base and sure you can’t give Yadi all the credit for that but I have to think that keeping a runner a step closer to the bag may have something to do with it.
His behind-the-runner pickoff throws to Pujols were a work of art. Those two were perfectly in sync, and had the skill to do it. I can remember watching Yadi put a laser throw right into Pujols’ glove, which was right between the runner and the base. Probably not a huge impact on the game but man was it fun to watch for the better part of a decade
I came here to post the same thing. There has got to be a statistical way to figure out how many runners *don’t* attempt to steal against catchers. Yadi gets credit for those caught stealing, but I’ve never seen a statistic that tries to count the number of baserunners who are afraid to run on him.
I’m with these guys. Jay, I’m sure you’ve seen Craig Edwards’s puff piece on SBA attempts against Molina vs everybody else (https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/yadier-molinas-career-in-four-graphs/). I’ve seen several pro-Molina HoF writers point this out, but haven’t seen any agnostic/anti- writers mention these numbers at all. As the “Baseball HoF Guy”I would love to get your thoughts on this.
I’d forgotten about that piece. Yes, there’s value in Molina shutting down the running game, some of which is captured in various flavors of WAR (CS%, and fewer SB attempts) and some of which isn’t (shorter leads and less advancement, leading to fewer runs), though in both, it’s tough to assign sole credit to one player — pitchers who are quick to the plate, good infielders and outfielders whose presence discourages baserunner advancement just as the catcher does.
If you’re going to assert that Molina has saved 50 or 100 runs in this context over the course of his career, it stands to reason that other catchers with strong defensive reputations would benefit from such accounting as well, which could reduce the impact of adding it into the mix for Molina. Johnny Bench caught when SB per-game rates were about 50% higher, and had a higher CS% (though the gap to the league was less than Molina). Nobody tried to steal on him — in 1972, Reds opponents stole 31 bases the entire season, and the team usually had one of the league’s lowest totals. How many runs did he save beyond SB/CS in that context? Or Rodriguez? I’m open to somebody figuring out a way to give us a real estimate of that, but it’s well beyond my technical capability to execute. Maybe I can find somebody to help take a stab.
It makes sense that including that component would benefit other defenders with a strong defensive reputation, but I think that it could still bolster Molina’s case. If I understand your articles correctly, part of the reason you aren’t sold on Molina in the HoF is because both McCann and Martin have higher WAR totals and because Molina’s defense isn’t enough to make up for the difference between his bat and Posey’s/Mauer’s. Over the course of all 5 catchers’ careers however, there is a significant difference between the SBA against the Cardinals with no other team being close. If that can be attributed mostly to Molina, and could be shown to provide significant value to the team, that could potentially help him stand out more from his peers, even if it doesn’t enhance his JAWS ranking all that much.
That being said, I’m definitely not an expert, and would love to see somebody actually figure this out. I appreciate your response, I hadn’t thought about how it would affect the WAR totals of Bench, Rodriguez, etc. before.
Thanks Jay. I don’t think any of us are asserting Molina’s statistical evaluation should get special treatment. I also agree it’s difficult to assign “did not run” to both catcher and pitcher for every pitch thrown throughout history. It probably falls into the “wouldn’t that be cool” category.
It reminds me of conversations about judging possible NFL Hall of Fame cornerbacks. Some kind of stat would be easier than fan/sportswriter conjecture, “No one threw against Deion.”
Sure, other catchers should also get credit, but Molina has been prolific at preventing steal attempts. He’d gain the most value, bolstering his HoF chances the most (or near-most, if there are a few guys who beat him out. No one modern seems to be as prolific, anyway).
And some would move down. And it doesn’t really matter if Pudge or Bench or Carter move-up any more. What matters is if there are more guys in the borderline range (within reach of in or out) who move up in pace with Yadi or past Yadi. Considering Baseball Prospectus has him rated particular great at this element (post 1988) that would be extremely unlikely.
The lack of stolen base attempts adds even more value to Molina’s defense than it appears at first glance. Not only does it massively cut down on opposing stolen bases, but it also lowers Molina’s CS% below what it would be with a normal amount of attempted steals. When you shut down the opposing running game like that, when they do run it’s when they’re more likely to be successful in the first place (mainly by stealing off the pitcher) and thereby giving Molina a harder time trying to throw them out. Therefore, Molina should be given more credit for his CS% than the actual numbers indicate.
Good objective analysis of his HOF case. Thanks Jay! Catcher is a tough position to evaluate. I’ve never been a huge fan of Molina (mainly as an overcorrection to how all of my Cardinals friends think that he’s the greatest player to ever put on the tools of ignorance haha) but I’ve grown to appreciate his body of work. He’s been good to solid for a long time. I have no issue with him making the hall, but if he’s in then you have to seriously consider McCann and Martin also.
“He’s tied with Munson, for whom I’ve made the case in the context of the Modern Baseball Era Committee…”
Yes, the chart shows he’s tied with Munson, but I really don’t think that’s a valid comparison here. We have no framing metrics for Munson and he hit his career WAR total in 10+ seasons compared to Molina’s 16. That would be like saying that since Sandy Koufax as a pitcher alone has a good Hall case, Frank Tanana should too if we count his batting.
It’s not that I don’t support Munson’s or Molina’s cases, I just really don’t think that that is a valid comparison to be making.
While I noted that he’s tied with Munson, I did spend the next couple of sentences trying to explain why the cases aren’t parallel. Did I need to again explicitly remind the reader that we don’t have framing estimates for Munson and other pre-1988 catcher and thus aren’t making an apples-to-apples comparison? I hope that concept got through at other turns within that section.
My apologies Jay, I was just skeptical of the validity of that argument even with its qualifiers, which you did indeed provide quite clearly. I wasn’t trying to be a troll, just stating my disagreement with its use.
I am shocked. Shocked!
I realize that it adds value and should be taken into account when determining a player’s worth, but I still find it strange that part of the HOF consideration is how good the catcher was at deceiving the umpire.
We need robot umpires yesterday. The idea that pitch framing, literally deceiving the umpire, is a skill that should be rewarded is ridiculous. I fully acknowledge how important it is, but the sooner framing is eliminated, the better. I could change just one thing about major league baseball, it would be robot umps/perfectly consistent strike zones.
That said, I think Molina probably belongs in the HOF. He has the rings, he’s played forever, he was a big star in his prime. Without seeing the numbers, when I see his name, I think HOF. For a borderline case, that’s good enough for me.
I know a lot of people think the way you do, and feel like a perfect/electronic strike zone is super important. I wonder, though, will that actually make the game any more enjoyable? I mean, baseball is still, at its core, entertainment. Whenever I hear people complain about the imperfection of the strike zone, it feels to me like just another efficiency someone wants to push into the game, and we have incredibly efficient baseball now, compared to eras past. And it’s incredibly boring.
It’s not even “efficiency” that would be added, just some extra degree of precision that hardly seems worth it.
It’s a good point, I don’t necessarily think it will make baseball more entertaining, or speed up the game, or anything like that. What it would do, however, is allow us to evaluate catchers based on their actual baseball skills, throwing, running, hitting, etc. Framing is the result of human error, and we don’t willingly accept it in any other aspect of sports (with a few exceptions.) Hell, we have replays for close plays at the bases and catches in the outfield, and I think most fans (maybe I’m wrong) are okay with that. Lines in tennis used to be called by humans, but they embraced hawkeye and now the idea of not using technology is ludicrous to any tennis fan.
The umpires exist to enforce the rules and make sure the game functions smoothly. Anything we can do to take subjectivity out of the game, and make it a pure contest between the players is not only desirable, but necessary. Baseball is a complex, difficult sport as it is, I think consistency of the strike zone is the minimum we should ask for.
“What it would do, however, is allow us to evaluate catchers based on their actual baseball skills, throwing, running, hitting, etc. Framing is the result of human error,…”
I don’t understand why we can’t celebrate framing as a skill that adds catcher vs. umpire to baseball’s labyrinth of individual matchups, thereby making baseball unique in yet another way.
This is a great point, in terms of baseball being a “unique” sport, the subjective strike zone is a wonderful attribute. Obviously there is a lot of room for debate on this issue. I personally don’t like framing, but I understand the perspective that it is part of baseball “lore” or whatever. We can agree to disagree.
fair enough!
Keep in mind that even if you think Molina is only a borderline Hall of Fame candidate now, he’s not done yet. What will his place on these metrics look like after 2 or 3 more years of added counting stats and overall added additional value before he retires?
I very much doubt that Molina has 2-3 years left in him, and even if he does limp along until through 2023, he’s not going to add to his WAR total significantly. More likely it’ll go the other way. And he’s not close enough to any further counting milestones to make a difference. He might have an outside shot at passing Fisk for second on the all-time games caught list, but that’s it.
This is a very fine article, the type of which I come to Fangraphs for. I’m not sure I agree with every point, but very well presented and argued.
I have pretty much the exact same feeling as the author – I don’t think Molina is a Hall of Famer, but won’t be incredibly upset if he gets in. Somebody has to from the catcher position.
Given the seemingly wide differences in $/WAR for catchers, is it possible there is more data around catchers teams prefer that we don’t see? Relationship with pitchers, philosophy alignment with the org, etc?
With various standards and eras in baseball. My hall of fame is basically “were you top 3 at your position for ~10 years”. Im not sure Molina fits that profile.
I’m not a Cards fan, but it would have been kind of sad to see him play out on another team. It’s great that it looks like the Card’s fans will be able to give him a proper send off.
With 1 rWAR this season, Yadi will finish about 20th all-time at his position. If we look at all positions, a majority of guys 18-22 are in the HOF. I think it is pretty reasonable that Yadi would have a borderline case if that is where our journey ended. Our journey does not end as anything positive helps Yadi and there are many anythings to choose from:
BBpro and FG both say that Yadi was a GREAT framer at what- around 15-18 wins? MGL’s WOWY research and cERA (yes, yes noise vs. signal and all) shows that Yadi, though impossible to quantify perfectly, likely did have some measurable impact on staff -handling and pitch-calling.
This, of course, matches with the unprecedented reputation heard from all who have ever worked with him. Yadi was about 40 runs better in his career in high-leverage than low leverage situations. Yadi also has a career 50.7% championship probability added in the postseason (none-of-which including his defense), and lots of famous postseason moments. Probably could have won the 2006 WS MVP, in fact.
People often worry about the credibility of these stats. If ANY of these things are “legit” he probably is no longer a fence-sitter. If some of them are “legit’ than there is really not too much to debate about his HOF status anymore. If MOST of these are “real”, we are talking about a player who was maybe the most valuable defensive player a the most important defensive position (with framing considered) who was also a league average hitter for his career. THAT guy is closer to Ozzie Smith in value than a borderline HOFer.
“But what about the guys below him in WAR that we don’t have the data for? Couldn’t they move past him?” For Yadi to not be a HOFer – there has to be MORE guys below him that IMPROVE upon his legendary collection of secondary factors than the number of guys he passes-up. And that seems incredibly unlikely provided his career volume and that some of these guys include Posada, Simmons, Tennace, Kendell (very poor framing, surprisingly) and some other known defensive liabilities. Just eye-balling reputations and career lengths and WAR totals, I would say he moves closer to 15th all-time or so.
“But Martin and McCann rate similarly” Okay…so? Do you believe framing or not? If not – there is nowhere else to go from here. If you do – than let them join the party too.
“But it isn’t fair to put him in when there might be pre-framing guys we don’t know about.” True – but it would be even MORE unfair to exclude guys we DO know about. You don’t leave out a guy who passes the criteria because there MAY be guys who MAY have also passed the criteria.
Bottom line: with NO consideration of framing or staff handling (probably two of the areas of run prevention/creation he was best), Molina is ALREADY a borderline HOFer provided his rWAR standing relative to others at his position. Unless there is some reason to believe more guys below him accrued a larger volume of insane secondary value than the number of players he passes up – Yadie is a pretty clear HOFer.
And notice there is no mention of All Star Games, Gold Gloves, feels-like-a-HOFers, or anything of the sorts.
Will voters agree? Time will tell, but I think he will make it at some point. If not in his first 3-4 years by the BBWAA, than by the VC. All it takes now is a few friends or ex co-workers to be voting on you. Yadi is the quintessential VC pick. Molina WILL be a HOFer -its just a matter of when and who selects him.
Deftly summarized, B.A.
Thank you.
Glad to see Piazza getting some love for the parts of the position he did really really well. It was an uphill climb back in the day to argue he was a good defensive catcher —-overall!— when the only thing most people saw were the pops to 2nd.
Elite framing, blocking, pitch calling and unlike a contemporary of his who shall remain nameless he didn’t alter his pitch calling to give himself a better chance to throw out runners.
His throws to 3rd were elite as well which might have been related to his size.
I am a diehard Cards fan and Yadi is a saint in my family but at this point he is borderline HOF. Hope he gets in but it’s far from the automatic entry most assume.
I’ve always thought of Molina as a very good pitch framer, but the elite part of his defense is his ability to control the running game and call a game. A Hall of Fame analysis that doesn’t attempt to quantify that is incomplete in my opinion.
Same. Huge Cards fan, but imo Molina is only a HOFer if you place a large emphasis on “soft factors” (that is, centrality to memorable teams and moments in baseball history – less science and more art). I’m more of a small Hall guy, so he wouldn’t make my ballot if I had one, but I’m sympathetic to this more narrative approach. It’s similar to the argument you have to make on behalf of David Ortiz. Ortiz’s career WAR is lower than that of, say, Chet Lemon, or Tim Hudson, or Mark Buehrle. Yet Ortiz just has a lot of pixie dust that those guys don’t, and much like Molina, a Hall without him seems not quite right.
When reading your part on piazza and I rod, I thought that stolen bases where more important from a catchers perspective when they played than now since it was more common to try and more common to get out. In addition, if we had a way to measure framing accurately all they way back our impression of hall of fame catchers would likely change.
Let’s say we think we can statistically measure 75% of Yadi’s value decently well, but not the other 25% at all. On that basis he’s a solid HoF for his position, but maybe not slam dunk, using WAR-based measures. And that’s more-or-less the premise of this article.
But it’s the other 25% that is mostly responsible for his reputation. It’s why he has multiple top-5 MVP finishes and Russell Martin doesn’t. It’s why he has Platinum Gloves and Brian McCann doesn’t even have Gold Gloves. It’s why he’s making more than other 1-WAR catcher now. If assume that that reputation is mostly deserved, then it seems like he’s a no-brainer HoF and maybe even a first-balloter, because WAR-based measures are currently undervaluing him by something like 1/3, and adding 1/3 more WAR to his total would make this a pointless conversation.
I.e., when Jay writes about “subjective factors” what he really means is “difficult to measure factors”, which isn’t the same thing. But it is *more* objective to impute some understanding of these rather than exclude them entire. Thus, the WAR-based case is actually the more *subjective* one in situations like this.
Now maybe it’s not 25%. Maybe it’s 15%. Then again, maybe it’s 30%. The point is it’s something, but it’s probably not the majority. So we can calculate ranges and go from there, but they will all be pushing Molina upwards at a greater rate than his comparison group (again: assuming the reputation is correct).
There are good reasons to think that he excels in the things we can’t easily measure, because he excels in the related things that we can measure. Plus, we can approximate it in other ways. E.g., Yadi’s teams have beaten their (Pecota and Steamer) wins projections almost every single season of his career, usually because the team’s run prevention has been better than expected. Pitchers come and go, coaches come and go, entire styles of play come and go, yet this keeps happening.
So maybe Yadi’s pitch-calling, game management, deterrent to the running game, and all of that stuff nets him another win a year relevant to a replacement-level catcher. Is that crazy to think? That Yadi might be worth 1 win per year more than Tony Wolters in ways that are difficult to directly measure? I don’t think that’s crazy. If it’s approximately true, then that’s about 1/3 of his total career value missing from WAR, as mentioned above, and after adding that in there’s not really a debate to be had about his HoF case.
That could be some really fun analysis. I don’t expect it would tell us anything about the projection systems, but it would be cool to see “huh, nomar’s teams beat their pecota projections every year” or whatever. Comparing the projected record vs end record for teams with certain long tenured players, and finding a way to strip out the tendency to improve midseason, then using that list to see if there are any trends that pop out has potential to be fun
You’ll never guess where Jackie Bradley Jr is gonna sign. Well I can tell you where he’s not going to sign. With the racist Redbirds…
Mmmk
Here come the BFIB to shove Molina down everyone’s throat.
Here come random internet guy offering unnecessarily divisive and unsubstantiated, likely untrue opinions.