Jay Jaffe’s 2025 Hall of Fame Ballot

Gregory Fisher-USA TODAY Sports

The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2025 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule, and a chance to fill out a Hall of Fame ballot for our crowdsourcing project, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball Reference version unless otherwise indicated.

“What do I do about Félix Hernández?” Even before my 2025 Hall of Fame ballot arrived in the mail in late November, that question loomed over my plans to fill it out. Anticipating a crunch for space but knowing that the former Cy Young winner — who’s on the ballot for the first time this year — is significantly short of the S-JAWS standard, the easy answer of leaving him off was always right there. Yet given years of discussion regarding the changing landscape for starting pitchers (and by extension, starting pitcher candidates), I decided to sit with the possibility of voting for him right up to the point where I reached for my pen.

I’ll take you through my process regarding the Félix question soon enough. This is my fifth year with an actual ballot, but filling one out and having it count still feels like a novelty in the context of 24 years of analyzing Hall of Fame elections, and 22 of doing so while armed with the system that became JAWS (the official 20th anniversary of the metric’s introduction was in January). With so many mentors, peers, and colleagues having come and gone in this racket, I’m grateful to have stuck around long enough to have earned the right to vote, and it’s a privilege I look forward to, even with the accompanying scrutiny and criticism.

In the weeks since the Hall unveiled this year’s 28-candidate slate, I’ve analyzed the top 21 candidates at length in my series. I’ve still got seven one-and-done stragglers to cover in early January, none of whom I seriously considered for my ballot; indeed, none of those seven has secured a single vote from among the 64 ballots published in the Ballot Tracker as of 12:01 AM ET Monday, but their careers deserve a proper valedictory. While I’ve mostly known whom I planned to include, as always, I’ve gone through my full process before finalizing my ballot, just as I did with my virtual ones. Particularly given my recent attempts to update the pitching side of JAWS, it never hurts to take another look.

After electing just four candidates from 2020–23, last year the writers elected three, helping to clear some of the backlog among those within range of election. This year’s crop of newcomers compelled me to reflect upon my own process, particularly with regards to starters and catchers, whose pitch framing data paints them in a new light.

The ballot isn’t nearly as crowded as it was before. Circa 2014, 14 candidates met or exceeded the JAWS standards at their respective positions, and 17 had a JAWS of at least 50.0 (or 40.0 for catchers), thus requiring all but the most small-Hall-minded voters to perform triage to winnow the field down to 10 candidates who could fit on their ballots. This time around, only two candidates meet or exceed the JAWS standards at their position, though two are within two points, eight are at 50.0, and the two catchers are at 40.0 using my experimental, framing-inclusive version of JAWS.

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Even with those numbers reduced relative to their recent peak, there’s still no such thing as a perfect ballot. With my annual exercise has always come an acknowledgement of the numerous subjective choices that go into selecting even the most objective-minded slate. How much leeway to grant if one is using WAR and JAWS? How much emphasis to put on postseason performance, awards, and less quantifiable considerations? Where to draw the line when it comes to performance-enhancing drugs or off-field issues, subjects that may or may not fall under the umbrella of the character clause? What to do about the declining workloads of starting pitchers, or the wealth of data we have for recent catchers that we did not have for those of yesteryear? Perfection may be unattainable, but it’s still worth pursuing. If we don’t get there… well, we do the best we can.

With that ample preamble out of the way, here’s how the subset of 21 candidates stacks up via JAWS:

2025 Hall of Fame Candidates by JAWS Margin
Player YoB Standards Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS Margin
Alex Rodriguez 4 3 117.6 64.3 90.9 35.5
Manny Ramirez 9 2 69.3 39.9 54.6 1.2
Chase Utley 2 1 64.5 49.3 56.9 -0.1
Carlos Beltrán 3 0 70.1 44.4 57.3 -0.8
Andruw Jones 8 1 62.7 46.4 54.6 -3.5
Ichiro Suzuki 1 1 60.0 43.7 51.9 -4.2
Bobby Abreu 6 0 60.2 41.6 50.9 -5.2
Billy Wagner 10 0 27.7 19.8 23.7 -6.0
CC Sabathia 1 0 62.3 39.4 50.8 -6.1
Francisco Rodríguez 3 0 24.2 17.6 20.9 -8.8
Mark Buehrle 5 0 59.1 35.8 47.4 -9.5
Andy Pettitte 7 0 60.2 34.1 47.2 -9.7
Dustin Pedroia 1 0 51.9 41.0 46.5 -10.5
Ian Kinsler 1 0 54.1 38.1 46.1 -10.9
Russell Martin 1 0 38.8 27.3 33.0 -11.3
David Wright 2 0 49.2 39.5 44.3 -11.9
Félix Hernández 1 0 49.7 38.5 44.1 -12.8
Jimmy Rollins 4 0 47.6 32.6 40.1 -15.3
Brian McCann 1 0 32.0 24.6 28.3 -16.0
Torii Hunter 5 0 50.7 30.8 40.7 -17.4
Omar Vizquel 8 0 45.6 26.8 36.2 -19.2
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference
For starting pitchers, standards and margin are relative to Peak WAR Adj. and S-JAWS. For relief pitchers, standards and margin are relative to R-JAWS. Yellow shading = meets standard at position. Blue = within one point of standard at position.

As noted, I’ve used my workload-adjusted S-JAWS for starting pitchers (detailed here), which brings the above starters closer to the standard but still leaves even the highest-ranked ones, Buehrle and Pettitte, more than nine points off the pace. Likewise, I’ve used my leverage-adjusted R-JAWS for relief pitchers (explained here), and while that doesn’t push Wagner past the standard, it makes him the top reliever outside the Hall.

The yellow cells show where candidates meet or exceed the career, peak, or JAWS standards at their positions, and as you can see, the table is pretty light relative to years past. Last year, Adrian Beltré and Joe Mauer both exceeded all three, but both were elected; also elected was Todd Helton, who exceeded two of three (peak and JAWS). But while we’re left a scant crop that clears the standards strictly speaking, we’ve got a few spots where a player is within one point, which is close enough for my tastes, and in building my ballot I’ve taken a somewhat looser approach, as I’ll detail below.

Let’s start with the “integrity, sportsmanship, [and] character” section of the voting rules. Until Mark McGwire landed on the 2007 ballot, that clause was never really used to exclude anyone; meanwhile, the various electoral bodies have admitted a parade of spitballers, sign-stealers, racists, cheaters, and abusers. The clause was the brainchild of Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who brimmed with such integrity that he spent his entire 24-year term as commissioner upholding the game’s shameful color line. The history of that hypocrisy and so many others — witness the election of Bud Selig, himself steeped in the collusion of the 1980s as well as the overseeing of the so-called Steroid Era — leads me to avoid putting any stock in the clause, but I do have my own ways of dealing with the darker aspects of players’ candidacies.

As I’ve said for over a decade regarding candidates connected to PEDs, I draw a line between those whose allegations date to the time when the game had no testing regimen or means of punishment (i.e., prior to 2004) and those who came afterwards. With no means of enforcing a paper ban, and with players flouting such a ban being rewarded left and right amid what was truly a complete institutional failure that implicated team owners, the commissioner, and the players union as well as the players, I simply don’t think voters can apply a retroactive morality to that period.

That distinction was why I voted for the likes of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Gary Sheffield, but with Shef’s BBWAA candidacy expired, this ballot’s only PED-connected players were ones who drew suspensions, namely A-Rod and Manny. On a performance-only basis, both would get my vote, and likewise if their failing the supposedly anonymous 2003 survey test were their only PED-related transgression, but both decided to press their luck and are paying the price. A-Rod is one of seven players with at least 3,000 hits and 500 homers, and he ranks 12th in WAR among all position players, but his full-season suspension for using PEDs bought from the Biogenesis clinic from 2010–12 is a black mark I can’t overlook. Likewise with regards to Manny, one of the greatest hitters of all time; his 154 OPS+ ranks 20th among players with at least 7,000 PA, but I still can’t get past the two failed tests, not when better players who never tested positive are being kept out. Every year, I consider whether it’s time to take a new approach with such candidates, but I’m not changing my mind this year.

Note that I have not used allegations of domestic violence to disqualify candidates from consideration, though such matters are far more serious than PEDs. I can certainly understand voters choosing to rule such candidates out.

As for who’s on my ballot, the navigation widget above links to their profiles, where I go into much greater detail than I can here. For the players who have gone unmentioned, likewise you can read about my reservations within their profiles linked in the widget above. To begin, the two high-profile newcomers get my nod:

Ichiro Suzuki (17th among right fielders in JAWS)

Suzuki clears only the peak standard, but that’s mainly because he didn’t make his stateside debut until after his 27th birthday, having won three Pacific League MVP awards in Japan. His 10 All-Star appearances, 10 Gold Gloves, 3,089 hits, and two batting titles are more than enough to justify voting for him, and so far everybody who’s published their ballot has. He was a joy to watch and to cover, a great global ambassador for the sport.

CC Sabathia (55th among starting pitchers in JAWS)

A six-time All-Star, Cy Young winner, and just the third left-hander to reach 3,000 strikeouts, Sabathia was a workhorse the likes of which we probably won’t see again. Nobody born after 1966 has topped his 3,577 1/3 innings, and Sabathia was born 14 years later. While he’s a bit short of the S-JAWS standard, he stands out relative to his contemporaries given his full résumé, which includes a stellar performance during the Yankees’ 2009 championship run and a larger-than-life performance in carrying the Brewers to their first playoff appearance in 26 years the season before. Combine his numbers and accomplishments with a very human and very public story of addiction and recovery, not to mention a spotlight as one of the most prominent Black voices in the game, and this one is an easy call.

From there it’s on to three candidates who clear at least one standard, all holdovers from my previous ballots:

Chase Utley (12th among second basemen in JAWS, 28.8% in 2024)

Despite not drawing more than 300 plate appearances in a season until age 26, Utley is just 0.1 points shy of the JAWS standard at the keystone, and ninth in peak as well thanks to the tremendous impact of his fielding and baserunning, which reflected his high baseball IQ. His late arrival contributed to his finishing with just 1,885 hits; even with the Era Committee election of Tony Oliva, the writers have yet to elect anybody from the post-1960 expansion era who finished with fewer than 2,000. Between that shortage and voters’ failure to recognize him on MVP ballots and in the Gold Glove awards — he was bypassed for the former in favor of teammates Rollins and Ryan Howard, and somehow never won the latter — he’s been left with an uphill battle for election. Still, his first-year share was higher than those of recent honorees Helton, Tim Raines, Scott Rolen, and Larry Walker, and per the Tracker, it looks like he’s gaining some ground.

Carlos Beltrán (9th among center fielders in JAWS, 57.1% in 2023)

The quintessential five-tool player, Beltrán is one of eight with at least 300 homers and 300 steals, and owns the highest stolen base success rate (86.4%) of any player with at least 200 attempts. He’s a bit below all three standards at a very top-heavy position, but he’s the best eligible center fielder outside the Hall and one of the top 10 all time.

Beltrán might already be enshrined if he hadn’t been at the center of the Astros’ illegal sign-stealing scandal, which nipped his managerial career in the bud. While his own performance didn’t benefit, he did something against the rules, and it continued through a postseason in which his team won a championship. Not every player was comfortable with it (McCann, for one, asked him to stop), but if we’re to believe the various reports, nobody stood up to him firmly enough to derail the scheme. Given that manager A.J. Hinch reportedly destroyed two monitors in response to the scheme, it’s worth questioning both his leadership capability and the convenient scapegoating of Beltrán as a lone actor; the asymmetry of Hinch and bench coach-turned-Red Sox manager Alex Cora returning to the dugout after one-year suspensions while Beltrán hasn’t even gotten another interview ought to raise an eyebrow as well. It’s also worth noting that like spitballing/ball-doctoring, sign-stealing is a behavior that exists along a continuum of baseball history that stretches back nearly a century and a half. The fan in me empathizes with that great 2017 Dodgers team being cheated out of a title, but the industry professional in me knows that the Astros were merely the most extreme example of a team stealing signs electronically, some of which were ultimately reported and others just whispered about.

Long story short, after spending hours talking about Beltrán’s case with friends and fellow writers (some of them voters), I returned to the framework of my PED policy: If the commissioner couldn’t punish him for what he did, I’m not going to play the vigilante and administer frontier justice on behalf of MLB or the Hall, hence my continued inclusion of Beltrán. At this writing, he’s actually above 75% in the Tracker; while I don’t expect that to hold up, it’s clear he’ll be on his way to Cooperstown soon.

Andruw Jones (11th among center fielders in JAWS, 61.6% in 2024)

If 2018 Hall of Fame honoree Chipper Jones was the Braves dynasty’s offensive cornerstone, Andruw Jones was its defensive one, an elite flychaser who won 10 Gold Gloves and ranks first at the position in fielding runs (+235). He could hit, too, bopping 434 career homers. His career collapsed at age 31, however; he played just 435 games over his final five seasons, disappearing from the majors at age 35, and so while he’s well above the peak standard, he’s short on the career one and in JAWS. I’m not so bothered given his relative ranking and the fact that the standards in center and right field are a few points higher than every other position. After two years in the mid-7% range, he added more than 50 percentage points over the next four cycles, and while his progress slowed last year, he’s got a very good shot at eventual election by the writers; currently, he’s polling above 70%.

One other holdover is an easy call:

Billy Wagner (6th among relievers in R-JAWS, 73.8% in 2023)

The holder of the all-time records for strikeout rate and opponent batting average, albeit at just a 900-inning threshold, Wagner is short of the admittedly slapdash standard established by the eight enshrined relievers. Since I’ve never been entirely satisfied with how JAWS handles that small group, I’ve remained open-minded, seeking alternate ways to evaluate relievers. By R-JAWS, which incorporates Win Probability Added (WPA) and situational or context-neutral wins (WPA/LI) as well as WAR, Wagner is the top reliever outside the Hall, trailing only Mariano Rivera, Dennis Eckersley, Hoyt Wilhelm, Rich Gossage, and Trevor Hoffman. After debuting at 10.5% in 2016 and gaining little ground in the next three cycles, his support more than quadrupled from 2019 to ’23. Last year, he fell five votes short of election, and now, in his final year of eligibility, he’s already flipped five no votes to yes. He’s almost certainly on his way.

All that is the easy part. Setting aside two other potential holdovers for the moment, I’ve got three first-year candidates who are in gray areas:

Russell Martin (28th among catchers in traditional JAWS, fifth in framing-inclusive JAWS)

A four-time All-Star and Gold Glove winner, Martin was underappreciated within the mainstream during his career, but groundbreaking studies quantifying the value of pitch framing revealed him to be among the game’s elite receivers. Acting upon that, both the Pirates and Blue Jays viewed him as a potentially transformative addition, prioritized signing him, and were rewarded with multiple playoff appearances, ending droughts of longer than two decades. In fact, Martin’s teams made the playoffs 11 times in his 14 seasons, and that’s not a coincidence.

Martin is the career leader in FanGraphs’ version of framing runs, 0.1 ahead of McCann. Since Baseball Reference’s version of WAR does not include framing, but since that area of the game has been shown to be so impactful — with much wider spreads from top to bottom than blocking or throwing out baserunners — I believe we’re doing 21st-century candidates a disservice if we fail to incorporate this crucial area into our analysis. Thus, for Martin and McCann, I’ve used a FanGraphs-based version of WAR and JAWS that incorporates Baseball Prospectus’ framing values for the years before 2008 as the main value metric; call them frWAR, frPeak, and frJAWS. Voìla:

FanGraphs Framing-Inclusive JAWS for Catchers
Player Career fWAR FG FRM BP Fram WAR Adj frWAR frPeak frJAWS
Mike Piazza 1992-2007 62.5 n/a 93.2 9.04 71.5 52.4 62.0
Ivan Rodriguez 1991-2011 68.4 2.9 -16.0 -1.6 66.7 40.1 53.4
Buster Posey 2009-2021 57.9 128.8 0.0 0.0 57.9 47.7 52.8
Joe Mauer 2004-2018 53.5 27.6 43.7 4.3 57.8 42.7 50.3
Russell Martin 2006-2019 54.5 165.7 47.7 4.6 59.1 40.8 49.9
Yadier Molina 2004-2022 55.6 151.1 37.6 3.7 59.3 37.6 48.5
Brian McCann 2005-2019 52.1 165.6 -15.6 -1.5 50.6 37.2 43.9
FG FRM = FanGraphs framing runs for 2008 onward, now included in WAR. BP Fram = framing runs from 1988-2007 via Baseball Prospectus. WAR Adj = BP framing runs converted to FanGraphs WAR. frWAR, frPeak, frJAWS = FanGraphs WAR-based career/peak/JAWS, adjusted to include BP framing runs for pre-2008.

While I wish we had framing numbers for more catchers, league-wide pitch-by-pitch data for balls and strikes — and thus the ability to determine called strikes above average, the basis for pre-PITCHf/x framing estimates — doesn’t exist before 1988. So we’re left to compare the ones we do have, and everyone in the table above is head and shoulders above the rest of the pack, with the next-highest ranked catcher, Yasmani Grandal, at 36.8 frJAWS but no longer very productive.

Martin was the fifth-most valuable position player in the majors from 2006–16, with 50.6 fWAR; that trails only Miguel Cabrera (62.5), Albert Pujols (52.7), Beltré (52.1), and Utley (51.8). The similarity of Martin’s frJAWS score to that of Mauer and the upcoming Posey and Molina tandem leads me to conclude he’s worth a vote, and I’m even more certain that voters need to consider this stuff with regards to 21st century catchers, particularly since the automatic ball and strike system isn’t going to render this skill obsolete. The pitch-by-pitch usage of ABS was roundly rejected by Triple-A players, coaches, and managers last summer in favor of a challenge system limited to a few calls per game, and it’s not even clear when that will reach the majors. I don’t think Martin will reach 75% anytime soon; I just hope he can pull 5% so we can continue this discussion next year.

Brian McCann (35th among catchers in traditional JAWS, seventh in framing-inclusive JAWS)

A seven-time All-Star who bashed 282 home runs, McCann was a better hitter than Martin (110 to 101 in terms of OPS+), and the two are more or less deadlocked in our version of framing runs (165.7 to 165.6 in Martin’s favor). Baseball Prospectus’ pre-PITCHf/x data shows that while Martin arrived in the majors as an excellent framer, McCann was initially a lousy one; he quickly improved, but the two are 63.3 runs apart for 2005–07, as the above table shows, and six points apart in frJAWS. Again, I think this discussion is worth continuing in the coming years, and feel it’s particularly important to include both on my ballot, even if that requires me to do a bit of juggling.

Félix Hernández (97th in S-JAWS)

King Félix is at the root of my ballot-crowding problem. From 2007–15, he was third in the majors with 45.9 WAR (including offense) behind only Clayton Kershaw (49.4, despite not debuting until May 25, 2008) and Zack Greinke (47.0), two future Hall of Famers, and from ’09–15, he was the best pitcher in the American League by ERA, strikeouts, and WAR. In that latter span, he made six All-Star teams, won a Cy Young, finished second twice, and fourth, seventh, and eighth in three other years. He was just 19 when he debuted, and was worked so hard that through his age-29 season (2015), he’d thrown more innings than any other starter who debuted after 1972 except for Fernando Valenzuela. He never reached the postseason and was just 33 when he threw his last competitive pitch; his fastball had lost its zip and he was unable to make the adjustments necessary to further his career.

By S-JAWS, it’s easy enough to dismiss Hernández’s candidacy, but in light of the workload changes that will have to dial down our expectations for starters, it’s worth considering other approaches. I tried a few on for size; the closest I’ve come to being convinced is based on Mike Petriello’s look at WAR across seven or 10 consecutive seasons, something I tried myself on the occasion of two-time Cy Young winner Corey Kluber’s retirement. For the 2005–14 stretch, Hernández did have the highest WAR of any pitcher, and as Petriello notes, of the 19 pitchers who can make a similar claim for any 10-year period going back to 1950, 13 are in the Hall, two more are on their way (Kershaw and Max Scherzer), and one would be in if not for PED allegations (Clemens). That leaves Dave Stieb, Ron Guidry, and Hernández — three pitchers with great but short careers — to reckon with.

I’m not saying I believe all three belong in the Hall, and I’m not yet convinced Hernández does, but I do know that I don’t want him to fall off the ballot and be cast into a decades-long limbo alongside two-time Cy Young winner Johan Santana, who received just 2.4% on a very crowded 2018 ballot. I’m voting for Hernández to help ensure he reaches 5% and maintains eligibility, which would give voters — myself included — at least another year to let his candidacy marinate.

With apologies to Pedroia and Wright, two great players whose careers just weren’t long enough, the choice comes down to two other players for my 10th spot. I’ve included one on all four of my previous ballots:

Bobby Abreu (22nd among right fielders in JAWS, 14.8% in 2024)

A five-tool player with dazzling speed, a sweet left-handed stroke, and enough power to win a Home Run Derby, Abreu was a stathead favorite thanks to his otherworldly plate discipline. He posted on-base percentages of .400 or higher eight times (.395 for his career) thanks to his ability to take a walk (100 or more eight years in a row). Yet despite routinely reaching traditional seasonal plateaus — a .300 batting average (six times), 20 homers (nine times), 30 steals (six times), 100 runs scored and batted in (eight times apiece) — he was ridiculously underappreciated by the mainstream, making just two All-Star teams and winning one Gold Glove. He barely scraped by in his 2020 ballot debut with 5.5%, but broke into double digits for the first time in ’23 (15.4%), then stagnated in ’24.

The other option is a pitcher whom I included last year for the first time, in his sixth year of eligibility:

Andy Pettitte (81st among starting pitchers in S-JAWS, 13.5% in 2024)

Though he only made three All-Star teams and never finished higher than second in the Cy Young voting, Pettitte was a rotation mainstay on five championship teams, eight that reached the World Series, and 14 that reached the playoffs. His postseason totals of 44 starts, 19 wins, and 276.2 innings are all records, thanks in part to the expanded format, and his 3.81 postseason ERA is a ringer for his 3.85 regular season mark, which equates to a 117 ERA+, which is ahead of 22 enshrined starters and tied with two others. His postseason résumé provides some separation between him and the otherwise similar Buehrle, pitchers whose S-JAWS falls in the 27th and 28th percentiles relative to those already enshrined.

I tabbed Pettitte last year to round out my ballot at 10, a nod to the notion of continuing the discussion of starting pitching standards, and of grappling with the volume of postseason data for 21st century players (Sam Miller has written some thought-provoking stuff on this).

In the end, having already made one reach beyond my usual analytical range in the pitching department (Félix), I decided not to make a second; Pettitte misses my cut this year. He’s already clinched a berth on next year’s ballot based on the votes in the Tracker, whereas Abreu has not. I’ll continue to consider Pettitte and the weight of his postseason work for future ballots.

Again, another imperfect ballot in the books and the mailbox:

Once again, I’m gratified that after covering baseball and analyzing Hall of Fame elections for so long on the outside, I get to cast a ballot. It’s still just one vote from among nearly 400, less impactful than my work to sway actual voters and help the likes of Raines, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Walker, Rolen and others find homes in Cooperstown, but it’s also symbolic.

I say this every year but it bears repeating: I’m standing on the shoulders of giants in the field of baseball analysis, people who entered this industry without going through traditional newspaper outlets and who either were never admitted into the BBWAA or didn’t last long enough within it to vote. I’d prefer a voting process that found room for them and for other experts from beyond the mainstream, but so long as it doesn’t, I’ll do my best to represent.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

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mookie28Member since 2016
1 year ago

Everyone entitled to their own opinion but I just don’t agree at all that McCann and Martin are worthy of HOF and not Arod and Manny. The roids stuff is obviously hard but those two guys were going to be HoF players regardless. McCann and Martin played very little role in the history of the game.

kkharley
1 year ago
Reply to  mookie28

define “very little role”? everyone is someone’s favourite player, whether they’re hall of famers or not. It’s a bad way to look at the game to ignore that, in my opinion. i think enough has been written on the subject to make it clear that catchers perform a very specific role on a baseball team and their value should be considered compared to other catchers, not to the other position players.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  mookie28

I am not even sure that Jay thinks that McCann and Martin are Hall of Famers. He just wants them to not fall off the ballot while he figures it out. Solid strategy if you ask me.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It is good strategy. Of course, one shouldn’t have to strategize with HOF ballots and voters shouldn’t be limited to 10 spots. But this is the world we deserve.

KyleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I disagree. If everyone used this strategy you’d have all the borderline guys getting in on safety-voting.

The vote is yes-or-no. Pick one, don’t strategize.

joegualtieri
1 year ago
Reply to  Kyle

You can’t just do yes/no, because you’re limited to 10 yeses.

KyleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  joegualtieri

I just dispute the logic of, “I’m not sure yet, so I’m voting yes so they don’t roll off the ballot”. That’s not about being limited to 10. That’s about pushing a maybe to a yes for strategic reasons. If the limit was higher would it change anything?

MikeD
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Maybe, but by leaving other potentially more deserving candidates off the ballot, he could contribute to vote reductions on returning candidates and thus create negative momentum. My view is personally reinforced by strongly believing neither are HOFers. He’s overthinking it. I hope both fall off the ballot.

Sonny LMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  mookie28

Assuming Arod and Manny would have been HOF without PEDs makes an assumption about when they started using and how impactful the drugs in question were.

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Sonny L

AROD was using in high school. He may never have played a single MLB game without it. Manny I don’t know.

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  mookie28

I do

zaxellMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  mookie28

I don’t mind giving Catchers credit for defense- obviously you should- but I’d severely discount the numbers for the first several years we’ve been doing a better job of measuring it. It’s not that they don’t matter, it’s that you’re comparing a player a baseline where half the contributors aren’t selected to maximize for it; Martin and McCann are incredible compared to the average, not just because they’re incredible (they are), but because they have the luxury of other teams playing Ryan Doumit (and others who’d have been moved off the position years earlier if they played today) to drag the average down, which today’s players just don’t have. It feels weird to say “Russell Martin is a Hall-Of-Famer because PIttsburgh was behind the curve on catcher defense”. I’m not sure how much to discount defense, but it feels like “a lot” is a better answer than “none”.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  zaxell

If you want that to apply catcher defense then you should also apply that to all kinds of other things, like Babe Ruth’s power should be discounted because teams weren’t looking for big power hitters back then or Rickey Henderson’s steals and runs should be discounted because teams weren’t looking for leadoff hitters who maximized obp back then. You could do that forever

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

People downvoting this probably haven’t thought too much about what it means to run a 200 wRC+ in 1924 vs 2024. Babe Ruth benefitted from a pretty mediocre “average” bat in a way that Aaron Judge does not.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I do use post-47 stats for a reason!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

I basically consider anything before 1951 to be a completely different game in terms of level. It’s like Japan today. We shouldn’t discount it entirely, and it’s likely that Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth and and Lou Gehrig and Tris Speaker would have been Hall of Famers in different eras too. But we’re probably talking more Willie McCovey, Duke Snider, Tim Raines type of stuff. The ballplayer today is just so much more consistent than a normed system of value is going to give huge ratings to people who played with bums.

Guys like Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Yaz, Joe Morgan, Frank Robinson, Mike Schmidt, Ripken, and Pujols were almost certainly on a totally different level than those guys. If you put Joe Morgan in 1920s baseball he would get on base every time he wasn’t facing Dazzy Vance or Lefty Grove. You can’t be the greatest ever if you don’t have to face Bob Gibson or Fergie Jenkins.

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

There’s a great video from a couple years ago with Hank Azaria-as-Jim Brockmire talking about how deeply Shohei Ohtani’s performance transcends anything Ruth did.

Baseball Analyzed
1 year ago

It does not

Baseball Analyzed
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Very weird take. Not true in any way.

MikeD
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

So Ruth is not a HOFer?

I see below you say they are, but I’m trying to assess how this relates to the HOF cases of McCann and Martin.

Last edited 1 year ago by MikeD
kkharley
1 year ago

why didn’t you vote for Jeff Conine? i know he wasn’t on the ballot, but there’s nothing Cooperstown can do if you make your own special Jeff Conine box and tick it. In fact, if you make 10 Jeff Conine boxes, you can vote for Jeff Conine ten times. You’d think the hall would have thrown out all their non-Conine based memerobilia, and instead just write Jeff Conine in blood on the wall. Can never understand baseball these days

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Just went over to look at the ballot tracker. There are three different voters who put Omar Vizquel on but not CC Sabathia.

I’m not inherently bothered by a ballot that doesn’t have CC Sabathia on it, but what kind of logical contortions do you have to do in order to put the compiler* Omar Vizquel on your ballot but not the guy with 3,000 strikeouts?

—-
*one could call him worse, but maybe people don’t think that abusing a disabled batboy is grounds for disqualification

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Vizquel has also gained 3 votes from returning voters. Seriously? Who adds Vizquel to their ballot at this point. Very weird.

synco
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

My suspicion is that the remaining Vizquel voters are of the “F-U stat geeks” type.

The Duke
1 year ago
Reply to  synco

There are all kinds of miscreants. Most people’s horrid deeds don’t get caught so there are lots of bad dudes in the HOF already. My view is that if their misdeed didn’t impact the game (like gambling and peds), then I don’t care for purposes of HOF voting. It’s not the job of hall voters to be making morality decisions – again my opinion.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It has to be:
Sabathia will make it without my vote so I can skip him. Or did they vote for Ichiro? If so, completely inexplicable.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Ichiro is unanimous so far.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

As he should be, so at least there’s some justice in the world.

synco
1 year ago

One would have to be pretty cuckoo bird to think Ichiro shouldn’t make it. Does he deserve to be only the second guy other than Mariano to be unanimous? No. Should he be unanimous? Yes.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  synco

Anyone who so clearly deserves selection really oughta be unanimous. It’s beyond dumb that Willie Mays, et al. were not unanimous. Shouldn’t let those past mistakes make us say Ichiro’s not deserving

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

If there were any merit to that stupid argument, it would have died with Rivera’s election. But, alas..

KyleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  TKDC

Absolutely. It’s a yes or no question and everyone should just say, yes! The unanimous thing is dumb. The fact that Hank Aaron can be the home run + RBI King and still not be unanimous… we shouldn’t talk about anyone deserving or not deserving it. It is not an achievement.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Kyle

Exactly. Nobody with any intelligence at all believes Rivera was a better player than Aaron, Ryan, Henderson, or Maddux because he got 100% and those guys all fell a handful of votes short.

Baseball Analyzed
1 year ago
Reply to  TKDC

They played different positions…

MikeD
1 year ago

It’s the final unpublished votes where it often falls apart, so I wouldn’t declare justice has won. All it takes is one, as we saw with Derek Jeter.

The Duke
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Vizquel would always have been on my ballot. In many ways this isn’t that much different in substance than a Martin or McCann vote.

But the question is, why would you add him now? The answer is that if you think he’s a HOFr except for his personal life transgressions you want to register that so that the veterans committees see a higher vote total . We know if you don’t score high with writers, the vets won’t put you in

marchandman34Member since 2020
1 year ago

Thanks Jay for your entire series of articles, great to see Russell Martin receive your vote!

srbunbury
1 year ago

I’m actually disappointed by this ballot. Martin and McCann aren’t even close to hall of famers

tjcook87Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  srbunbury

Based on the articles and in depth analysis of their respective skills, Jay presents the case that they are, in fact, Hall of Fame caliber players. Curious where you find fault with those cases as he has them laid out.

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  tjcook87

I mean, it’s not difficult to build a “not HOF” case for those two at all; I just down think the commenter read the articles explaining why Jay voted for them (i.e., strategic votes to try and keep them on the ballot for a more robust discussion in later years)

srbunbury
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

That’s a strategy when there is a stacked ballot like in years past where guys like Larry Walker, Scott Rolen, Billy Wagner are hovering around 10%. This ballot is most definitely not stacked.

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  srbunbury

That is definitely true (that the ballot is not stacked this year). There’s no way I could get to 10 truly qualified candidates on this ballot. But it IS still a valid strategy when every single vote may be needed to keep them above the 5% DQ threshold.

srbunbury
1 year ago
Reply to  tjcook87

Jay and fangraphs has Russell Martin as the 5th best player by WAR from 2006-2016. Something is seriously wrong with your model if you have Russell Martin who i got to watch everyday for part of his career as the 5th best position player in baseball for a decade.

The Duke
1 year ago
Reply to  srbunbury

So during this 20 year period you have mauer, posey, Molina, McCann and Martin as the best of their class

How many from that era should get in ? 1? 3? 5? History might suggest about 3 per era. So is your cutoff Molina / posey /Mauer ?

They would make sense to me but if you feel it shukud be bigger than both these guys should be in

srbunbury
1 year ago
Reply to  The Duke

No the stat was the 5th best player in baseball, not catcher, position player. Russell Martin not only has never been the best player on his team, there were years he wasn’t even the 5th best player on his team

scotth855Member since 2020
1 year ago

Great ballot and article, Jay.

Any Cardinal fans out there who are going to say McCann and Martin don’t deserve to be in the HOF need to look at Molina’s page before casting the first stone…

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  scotth855

It would be nice if McCann and Martin stuck around long enough so we could get a full three-way comparison, but I think it’s unlikely.

bubblesMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

More years would have been nice for a full comparison. I also think that stats aren’t the end all of the Hall of “Fame” voting although obviously they are a big oart. Yadi was a very famous and beloved player and had a lot more name recognition than McCann and Martin.

joegualtieri
1 year ago
Reply to  bubbles

Yadi’s probably passed him, but McCann was pretty popular and well known in the 00s.

veeckasinwreck
1 year ago

Pretty close to my (theoretical – I’m not a BBWAA member) ballot.

Same – In (7): Abreu, Beltran, Jones, Sabathia, Suzuki, Utley, Wagner.

Me In You Out (2): Ramirez, Rodriguez.

You in Me Out (3): Hernandez, Martin, McCann.

I enjoyed your piece, find the “Steroids” issue our primary difference.

Bud Selig should be banned from baseball for life, and removed from the BBHOF if his presiding of this era is a significant factor of BBHOF eligibility. Not to mention his role in cancelling the only season in MLB history.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Utley’s got a long way to go…there aren’t that many 10-vote ballots out there, which means you have to change people’s minds…

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

There’s no chance that’s happening this year, leaping to 75%. If he’s getting there, it’s likely a 6+ year journey of slow and steady increases. Especially given that there will be a clear faction who would always and forever be a “no” on him just because his career totals are so light. (I would count myself…if not in that “always no” group, pretty close.)

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago

Strangest voting trend so far. Utley has gained 9 votes from returning voters but also lost 5 votes from returning voters. And 3 of those did NOT submit a full ballot.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…I will never, ever understand the thinking process of certain voters.

Last edited 1 year ago by Left of Centerfield
AlbyMember since 2025
1 year ago

Roughly half of all people have below average intelligence. Does that help?

synco
1 year ago

As someone who started following advanced stats before Moneyball came out, when we start calling Russell Martin a Hall of Famer we’ve officially gone too far.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  synco

I’m much more of a “No” on Felix than Martin, who had the same WAR as Yadi in 2000 fewer PA.

I honestly think it’s reasonable to say that Martin’s the most influential defensive player of the last twenty years or so…and he was a better hitter than Ozzie Smith.

synco
1 year ago

I’m a no on Felix as well, FWIW. Peak is the most important component, but career matters too. Felix falls short on career, and his peak wasn’t so crazy high that it makes up for it. He wasn’t Sandy Koufax for example, putting up 10 WAR seasons, he was a 5.5-6.5 WAR guy.

Martin’s candidacy rests almost entirely on whether one thinks Fangraphs has the special sauce when it comes to catcher framing and no one else does, and that their methodology is sound and Martin was so fantastically better than everyone else that he really does deserve all those defensive runs. Without those runs he’s a very good catcher, but not close. With them he maybe barely squeaks over the line.

Put another way, I’m very hesitant about putting in a guy who is a single formula tweak away from being clearly not worthy.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  synco

I’m not a hardcore RUSSELL HAS TO GO IN guy (I’m more adamant on Wagner!) but I think it’s worth noting that Baseball Prospectus likes him even *more* than FG (Statcast likes him a bit less).

As someone mentioned above, there really is a question of how to weigh Martin’s first mover advantage – he’s probably a +10 framer by today’s standards…but the man was playing a *different game* than the rest of the league.

FunFella13Member since 2016
1 year ago

Perhaps that suggests Molina is also not a hall of famer

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  FunFella13

OK but then Jay would have to fight Cardinal Nation

BenZobrist4MVP
1 year ago
Reply to  synco

Based on fWAR, Martin is ahead of Joe Mauer and Ted Simmons. Maybe FanGraphs weights framing and catcher defense in general too high. But if they don’t, then Martin is reasonable.

Sure, he might not *feel* like a Hall of Famer. At one point most people thought Ted Simmons, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, and Alan Trammell didn’t feel like Hall of Famers. Most analytically minded fans have changed their minds on them. The same thing could happen with Martin or it could not.

Johnnie TMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

Because of the nature of the people attracted to this site, there is a strong predilection here for voting based on advanced stats as opposed to whether a player “felt” like a HOer. I think it goes too far in that direction.

I also think that this site is excessively a Big Hall site which I do not agree with and suspect will draw me a few downvotes here…

marchandman34Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Johnnie T

I can’t speak for others, but I try to model around whether a player is worthy of what the current Cooperstown Hall of Fame line is…Russell Martin is far enough above the line by multiple metrics that you can take some air out of his defensive totals and I still see a HOFer.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  marchandman34

I’m also old enough to remember the Yankees swearing up and down that Martin was an insanely great defensive catcher, while everyone rolled their eyes and complained about his batting average.

The Duke
1 year ago
Reply to  synco

And where do you stand on Molina? Because he is viewed by many as a surefire HOFf and by some as a first ballot HOFr.

Do you think Martin and McCann are one and done and Molina is slam dunk ?

keenejMember since 2024
1 year ago

I get that voters are scared to make mistakes: I just don’t see the merit in Felix Hernandez as a Hall of Famer. He was not the best pitcher of his time, I don’t think he was the best pitcher from 2005 to 2014, and while I understand that things are changing: most of those changes occurred after Felix retired, not during or before. I would personally be really annoyed if Felix Hernandez got into the Hall.

As a Cleveland fan, it feels like we get ignored per usual, and I will be furious if Felix gets inducted while Lofton is left in the cold. I get that their candidacies aren’t the same: but Lofton was a better player than Felix.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  keenej

I sort of get it. There’s no reason why Berkman should have fallen off on the first ballot and Helton gets to go in the Hall. But at the same time you can’t make decisions based on previous mistakes. Just because a player is better than a random compiler who got in doesn’t mean you should vote them in, and just because a deserving player got robbed it doesn’t mean you should exclude everyone below that line forever.

Chip LockeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  keenej

Lofton is no longer on the ballot so I am not sure what you want Jay to do about that. Also… CC Sabathia played for Cleveland for 8 years? And 11-year Clevelandian Omar Vizquel is getting way more attention than he deserves? Manny might have a Cleveland cap on his plaque if he hadn’t been suspended?

Seems like Cleveland is getting a lot of attention, deserved or not. It’s too bad it wasn’t for Lofton years ago, but again, not sure how that is Jay or Felix’s fault.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  keenej

I get that being a Cleveland sports fan is defined by a never ending list of grievances, but this is petty even for Cleveland. Frank Costanza would sing you “let it go” in a Disney costume if he were here.

ichiro262Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  keenej

Here’s where I’d make the argument for Felix. There are 6 starting pitchers who peaked between 1990 and 2005 that are in the hall of fame. There’s the inner circle of Randy, Pedro, and Maddux (plus Clemens who isn’t in). Then there’s the dramatically less good but still HOF Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina (which would also likely include Schilling if not for his controversies). But if not for controversies that number would likely be 8 HOF pitchers in this period.

For pitchers who peaked between 2005 and 2020, we have the inner circle Verlander, Scherzer, and Kershaw. Then there’s Greinke, Halladay, and likely Sabathia. We might have that group rounded out by DeGrom or Sale. But also I don’t think it’s crazy to consider Felix or Santana to be the equivalent of Smoltz here, in terms of their significance/placement relative to their era.

Basically, I think that Felix and Santana are AT LEAST as compelling HOF candidates as Pettitte and Buehrle, who were basically never top 10 pitchers in the MLB but just pitched a long time (and in Pettitte’s case got a lot of postseason reps and continued his good-not-great performance). And those guys will both stay on the ballot for the full 10 years.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  ichiro262

I just wouldn’t put Felix all that close to Santana, whom I would place firmly above Pettitte and Buehrle.

In fact…Felix is a cut below Tim Hudson and Cole Hamels, JAWS-wise, because while he had two elite years and four great ones…he only had four other average or better seasons.

He’s “just” Oswalt with better PR.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago

Better PR and 100 pounds.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  ichiro262

Pettitte also admitted he took HGH.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  keenej

Hall of Famers, or most anyway, aren’t the best player/pitcher of their time. Duke Snider was the third best CF in his city and he’s a rock-solid HOF.

Fully agree on Lofton, he’s among the worst omissions in recent memory.

Dan GlysackMember since 2024
1 year ago

Andruw Jones surprises me given the character clause and his guilty plea to DV

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Dan Glysack

My biggest struggle with the character clause is inconsistent application.

It seems to be used by people as the cudgel of disqualification when discussing players they don’t want to get in, but curiously ignored for players they do want.

I don’t think there’s a perfect solution here, but given the number of slimeballs currently in the hall, I think I’d prefer that players are evaluated for their on-field actions only.

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago

There’s also no retroactive application. Roberto Alomar was banned from baseball but he stays in the Hall because we found out about his horrible deeds after he got elected.

I get that removing people might be controversial but how can someone who’s been banned be in the HOF? Other awards get rescinded. Very different example but Bill Cosby had his Mark Price for American Humor taken away from him.

Last edited 1 year ago by Left of Centerfield
sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Kirby Puckett is my favorite / least favorite example of this. He got elected largely because of 1988, a feeling that his career was cut short due to his eye condition, and his incredible charisma and good-guy reputation. I am pretty sure if we knew about his violent behavior behind closed doors that batting .356 with 24 homers in 1988 wouldn’t have been enough.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago

You’d have to remove like 2/3 of the pre 1950 inductees if you wanted to go back, including Babe Ruth. Not that they wouldn’t deserve it, I just don’t have the emotional energy to go back and litigate which of the dead racist, wife beaters were sufficiently racist and violent to be removed. Can’t even get the Braves and Chiefs fans to stop doing the chop…

Last edited 1 year ago by CC AFC
Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Oh I agree. I’m not actually advocating for removing people. Just pointing out the absurdity of how the rule is applied: Some bad acts are okay, some aren’t (though who knows which are which) and make sure you don’t get caught till after you’re elected.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

I think the league is glad it can disqualify Clemens (rightly) for PEDs, because otherwise they’d have to wrangle with Clemens the Pedophile.

francis xavier pfefferMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

“Woke up thinking about how Babe Ruth set his poor wife Helen on fire yet the moral gate keepers are keeping Barry Bonds, the greatest hitter of all time, out of the Hall of Fame.“ -Ben Verlander

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago

It seems to be used by people as the cudgel of disqualification when discussing players they don’t want to get in, but curiously ignored for players they do want.

This right here, 100%. Very well said.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago

Yeah, I try to limit it to “baseball character” – which leaves A-Rod, Manny, Cano, and Vizquel on the outside and Clemens, Bonds, and Jones eligible.

Youppi!
1 year ago

Agree. Writers use it how they want and the Hall should have more clearly clarified that it applies to their playing career. It says in the link above:
CHARACTER, INTEGRITY AND SPORTSMANSHIP
Implemented in 1945. Rule applies to how the game was played on the field, more so than character off the field. 

Schilling is a p.o.s in post baseball life, but he’s a HoF ball player, as an example.

Last edited 1 year ago by Youppi!
TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Youppi!

The problem with Schilling is that he is openly and publicly a terrible person. Barry Bonds isn’t going to give a speech about PEDs or DV being good things. I’m against giving Schilling a platform to exclaim his bigoted ideas.

Last edited 1 year ago by TKDC
Paul-SF
1 year ago
Reply to  Dan Glysack

This is why I think we have to ignore the PED allegations. Jay rightly acknowledges that DV is worse than PED usage, yet votes for Jones and not A-Rod and Manny, despite Jones pleading guilty to DV (so it’s not just a question of positive test vs. unproven allegations). Add in the other difficulties – has anyone ever been able to quantify the actual benefits of PED usage given the fact that pitchers and hitters were both using them to compete against each other, the fact that the baseball itself changed during the steroid era, and the fact that other illegal drugs (especially amphetamines) were used to enhance performance in the decades prior to that era? – and it seems obvious to me even the “positive test” standard is deeply flawed. On-field performance is the only thing we can safely use to judge players for the HOF, in my opinion.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul-SF

I find the comparison even trickier when talking about PEDs vs other forms of cheating, e.g. beltran’s electronic sign stealing game or spitballs. Three of the key arguments for Beltran seem to be: 1) the cheating was short lived or at least we lack evidence that it carried on for a long time; 2) other people did it, too, probably including other teams; and 3) we can’t tell for sure that it significantly impacted his performance. And brother, if those are true, and they probably are, then they’re true of most PED violators.

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul-SF

Gaylord Perry is the ultimate example. Everyone knows he cheated and no one cares. Even Jay admitted he probably would have voted for him.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago

It’s just another example of why I find “who gets in the Hall” to be mostly a pointless exercise. At all times, it’s subjective. At all times, there’s information that is or was ignored.

Talk about everyone who contributed to the game–including *all* of their humanity, which includes the bad as well as the good, Speaker of the Dead style.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago

Yep..& Gaylord was a good ol’ boy, who everyone loved, was a fun character of the game & a great interview

Not a jerk like Bonds, Clemens & Schilling.

That’s where the unfairness gets me. Everyone liked Gaylord, so his spitball antics were viewed as quirky fun & ignored, whereas people dislike Bonds/Clemens/Schilling so it’s a convenient excuse to not vote for them.

Last edited 1 year ago by PC1970
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

Schilling’s issues begin and end with him being an asshole – he was on the same schedule as Mussina, if he had the ability to keep his mouth shut for more than three minutes at a time.

Dan GlysackMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Paul-SF

Mustve missed that disclaimer paragraph, which I appreciate.

Understand there is no good approach given the many shady characters already in the hall. I am of the belief that if you have the option of adding a confirmed bad individual (here, a guilty DV), you err to exclude them from achieving that status.

ichiro262Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Dan Glysack

Personally, I’d interpret the character clause more along the lines of “integrity of the game”. Pete Rose isn’t out of the hall because he was a shady character. He’s out of the hall because he gambled on baseball. Our enjoyment of the sport is predicated on it being an actual competition, and gambling on the game (especially when you have some control of the game) is a slippery slope to MLB becoming WWE.

While I think it’s a bit more of a stretch, a reasonable person could interpret steroids use as compromising the integrity of the game. We can’t have a bunch of high school, college, and minor league flameout players dying at 50 from complications steroid complications. If everybody was allowed to do steroids for a prolonged period of time, this would happen so much that it would become part of how everyone sees baseball.

AlbyMember since 2025
1 year ago

There are a few shortstops in the Hall with a career OPS+ in the 80s, obviously there for their defense and longevity, but only Ray Schalk fits that description among Hall catchers. The question about framing is whether one has to be head and shoulders above the field like Yadi, or just excellent like McCann and Martin, to qualify as Hall-worthy.

FunFella13Member since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

None of Martin, McCann, nor Molina are unimpeachable hall of famers

ichiro262Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Alby

Not sure what you mean by head and shoulders above the field. Yadi wasn’t head and shoulders above the field by any framing metrics (Martin and McCann were better). I think he mostly gets hype bonuses for “one team his whole career” and “played in the playoffs a bunch” and “won gold gloves at a time where they were mostly measured by the eye test” and “hit for a high batting average sometimes”. Rather than his actual resume as a player.

Bob DMember since 2020
1 year ago

Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays…..and Russell Martin????

BenZobrist4MVP
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob D

Or Buck Ewing, Ray Schalk, Rick Ferrell, Ernie Lombardi….and Russell Martin. There are many Hall of Famers besides Ruth, Cobb, and Mays.

Bob DMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

Then I guess the solution might be to make a special section of the HOF for the GREATS of the game. Snobbish, that’s true. I just have a hard time picturing Mickey Mantle’s plaque sharing space with Martin or McCann. (I realize that fans of this day and age would prefer the baseball HOF become like the football HOF, so a fan’s favorite player is more likely to enter. I can’t wait for Cooperstown to induct Coot Veal. LOL)

synco
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob D

The stat head side of the baseball world is definitely big hall. That being said, stat head favorites who don’t have the traditional stats to back it up haven’t really made much of an impact.

Martin is not getting in, for example. The real question whether he’ll even make it to 5% to stay on the ballot. These are mostly just internal discussions over who the stat head community thinks is worthy.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  BenZobrist4MVP

Buck Ewing is easily deserving. The rest of those…..maybe not.

MorlandMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob D

If Ruth, Mays and Cobb were the standard there’d be only a dozen or so players in the HOF.

BenZobrist4MVP
1 year ago
Reply to  Morland

If they were the minimum standard, more like half a dozen. Maybe add Barry Bonds, Walter Johnson, and Cy Young.

We could have endless debates on if Ted Williams had enough longevity or Hank Aaron a high enough peak to meet the Ty Cobb HoF borderline.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob D

Martin will be the Assistant to the Traveling Secretary

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Bob D

“Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle…Costanza??

adtaylor
1 year ago

Longtime Yankee fan…I thought McCann and Martin were fine catchers (letting Martin go was a mistake by Cashman). I just can’t imagine a HoF with them and not Munson or Posada though.

tarvisMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  adtaylor

I am with you on Munson … but Posada? Not a chance. What we know about framing and the numbers from the latter part of his career only diminishes an already weak case for him. I know he backstopped many postseason games and was one of the “Core Four” … but Berra (nor Munson) he ain’t.

Cardaughter Transtulli
1 year ago

I see Hernández as the prototypical Peak guy. He had a long good career and a Hall of Fame worthy peak. I don’t like going from this point to combing through someone’s decline years. They do matter, but his overall career is good enough. That certainly fits a colloquial idea of Hall of Faminess.

And this is a question we’ll have to come back to with starting pitchers in the next 5-10 years. I find it quite realistic that quickly discounting him would be a thing that would be considered a zeitgeist mistake in the future.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

People forget how good he was at his peak, and peak is definitely the most important quality of a Hall of Famer. He’s a reasonable candidate, it’s not ridiculous to think he is a Hall of Famer on its face.

But I also think that when Verlander and Scherzer and Kershaw become eligible we are going to feel very differently about his candidacy. Hernandez is actually younger than Scherzer and Verlander. I am more of a medium-small hall person so Hernandez would likely not get my vote

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

For me, the issue with Felix is that his peak was “Normal HoF” level, rather than something truly bonkers like Johan or Stieb…and that there’s no smoking gun “Tragic Injury” to blame for his decline.

Wonderful career…but he’s “just” an Oswalt, or a Lee, or a Guidry.

synco
1 year ago

Lee was arguably better than Felix. He has a similar lifetime WAR, and two seasons that were slightly higher than Felix’s best. Corey Kluber’s two best seasons were also better than Felix’s high water mark.

Felix was extremely good, and there’s an obvious path to the HOF as a 5.5-6.5 peak WAR guy. But it involves longevity, and hitting certain career milestones. Those guys didn’t get there, and neither did Felix. Though it sure looked like he would.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If people forget how good his peak was, then it was probably not that great. I see one 7.2 WAR season. We’re not talking Dwight Gooden here.

glass_oni0nMember since 2023
1 year ago

Your arguments for the character clause being selective at best are very clear. You come to a very honest conclusion that the clause should hold no merit based on who it was created by, and who hasn’t been excluded since, yet you continue to abide by it.

No other sport cares about PED use. It’s not disqualifying in any other sport’s HOF, and frankly, it’s not disqualifying in baseball’s either. Mike Piazza, Jeff Bagwell and Pudge Rodriguez were all granted a slap on the wrist. David Ortiz, a DH who offered no defensive value went in on the first ballot. Players like Pedro Martinez, Roberto Alomar, Adrian Beltre and Todd Helton are rumored to have been on the 2003 list. Rumors persist about Craig Biggio and whoever now-HOF writer Tom Boswell was referring to in the 2010 Ken Burns documentary (out of respect I won’t say who but we all think we know who he was talking about). Suspended or not, the HOF is littered with players with one degree or another of suspicion, several of whom had careers that spanned well past that 2004 line of demarcation. I guess awarding more strategic cheaters is honorable?

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  glass_oni0n

Wait till the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame implements a character clause….

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago

Lol

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Hey it kept out The Knack! My Sharonna….

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Not as much as their lack of success outside of one song in 1979 did, though

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago

If implemented, I think it would be a reverse-morals clause (i.e., keeping out those with high moral character for not befitting a true rock and roll lifestyle)

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

Those people keep themselves out by making crappy music anyway

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

John Denver?? Hell No!

Axl Rose- Easy Yes!

PressXToJason
1 year ago
Reply to  glass_oni0n

Everybody talks about the 2003 list like it’s the equivalent of a failed PED test from a decade, or two-plus decades, later. There was no methodology, it was the equivalent of heading to GNC, finding and writing down every questionable component of every product in the building, and checking the whole league for each and every one. Many of those substances aren’t banned now. There’s a reason most guys on it never failed a later test, and it’s not because most of the players were smart and knew how to dodge the tests. It’s that most of them just weren’t doing outright stupid stuff like using straight up anabolic steroids and then trying to counter the effects with women’s fertility drugs, like Manny did… twice. If you failed a test in the 2010s, I’m okay with holding you accountable. Twice? You’re definitely out, there’s no false positive there. But I’m not going to take a glorified survey and treat it as gospel.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  glass_oni0n

There is, and should be, a big difference between players who were rumored or surveyed–or used prior to the league implementing the steroid ban–and players who broke the steroid ban. Especially since the league encouraged it prior to the ban.

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  drewsylvania

The flip side of course being that those who were suspended had the full punishment in the collective bargaining agreement applied to them.

Chip LockeMember since 2016
1 year ago

I think we match although I admit if I actually had the opportunity to make a movement it would be for Zobrist, who has a lot of narrative reasons to be in the hall-of-fame as the face of the evolution of the game along with being a star-level player for a few years. I feel the same way about Tommy John – players who had good careers and are a core part of the history of the game.

A museum is an educational realm for one to understand better the subject at hand. You can’t understand baseball as it is today without John and Zobrist.

Or, put another way, if Ken Burns IV does a new Baseball documentary in 40 years, I guarantee both of those guys will play a decent-sized role in their respective chapters.

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  Chip Locke

The museum highlights all kinds of players who aren’t enshrined. When I was there, there was more Pete Rose than you could shake a stick at. I’m pretty sure you’re going to see some Tommy John. And some Ichiro, even if all the trends prove wrong and he’s not enshrined. And some Ohtani, who hopefully won’t be eligible for more than a decade. The museum takes hours to go through, and you still won’t have seen everything, and there’s literally millions of items not on display. And a big library (where they had trouble getting me anything on the Seattle Pilots when I asked; presumably overcome because someone later wrote a book on them).

Chip LockeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Breadbaker

I actually don’t see why they don’t enshrine Pete Rose but also ban him from entering the building and put on his plaque that he was banned from baseball for gambling. Or just have part of a room dedicated to the history of cheating/banned players and keep Arod/Rose/Jackson plaques there. That would be very interesting and educational.

Cooperstown is far from the only museum with this problem, but they aren’t attempting to tell the history of baseball, they’re telling the fairytale of baseball. A more comprehensive, honest portrayal of the history of the game would be a great change because the story is so intertwined with America and medicine and globalism and socio-politics. What they do now is basically like any small town historic house museum that wants the visitor to think it’s always been hunky-dory besides a few tragedies that were the fault of no one at all.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chip Locke
Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Chip Locke

Nice player, fun story, BUT…

If Ben freaking Zobrist is a hall of famer, we better be ready to induct (deep breath) Matt Williams, JD Drew, Devon White, Miguel Tejada, Jimmy Key, Kenny Rogers, Roy Oswalt, Mark Teixeira, Brian Giles, Jack Clark, Luis Gonzalez, and about 250 others who are at or above his career threshold.

Chip LockeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

That argument actually completely misses my point but sure.

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago

So appreciative of all your work every year summarizing the candidates and their qualifications Jay.

I made my own guess before looking at the tracker or anyone else’s ballots this year:

Ichiro, 99.2%
Wagner, 78.2%
———————
Sabathia, 69.9%
Andruw Jones, 68.8%
Beltran, 67.0%
Utley, 41.0%
A-Rod, 37.1%
Manny, 33.2%
Abreu, 17.9%
Pettitte, 17.4%
Vizquel, 16.4%
Rollins, 16.1%
Pedroia, 14.5%
King Felix, 13.5%
Wright, 10.9%
McCann, 9.9%
Martin, 9.4%
Buehrle, 9.4%
Hunter, 7.3%
F-Rod I, 7.0%
——————–
Kinsler, 4.4%
Granderson, 3.6%
Zobrist, 1.3%
F-Rod II, 0.5%
H Ramirez, 0.5%
A Jones II, 0.3%
Tulo, 0.3%
Cargo, 0.0%

With Beltre, Helton, Mauer, and Sheffield coming off the ballot, that frees up over 1200 votes – I may have underestimated the boost the mid-tier candidates and some of the new guys will get. As it stands, I have the average ballot going from 6.94 votes in 2024 to 6.55 votes in 2025.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

This would have been my guess before looking at the tracker too, and I still don’t think it will be too far on most of them. But I was surprised to see that Sabathia has something like 93% of votes so far. That will drop because the people who don’t post their ballots are often stingier. But I would have put him down for 73% or something for the final tally, right on the border in year 1 before everyone puts him down in year 2.

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

In looking at the tracker after making my guesses, I don’t think I accounted very well for the number of “freed up” votes from four guys who got 60%+ coming off the ballot. I think there will be a lot more ballots with 8-10 guys than with 4-5, so I should have pushed my vote totals a bit higher to account for that.

In particular, Pettitte and the leftover PED guys (A-rod and Manny) are getting more love than in years past. I think some voters are recognizing that “if we can’t elect guys like Pettitte or at least throw them some support, we may only elect 1-2 starters per generation going forward.” The PED guys will inevitably move lower once the anonymous ballots come in at the end.

I think you’re right, vote shares will inevitably fall between now and the final results, but I think I will still be light on several guys. Conversely I thought the new catchers (Martin and McCann) would comfortably hang around in the 8-10% range but that may be optimistic.

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

“In particular, Pettitte and the leftover PED guys (A-rod and Manny) are getting more love than in years past.”

Pettitte yes. But Manny has lost one net vote among returning voters and A-rod is even.

thaaldermanMember since 2024
1 year ago

Voting for Felix and but not Buehrle and Pettitte makes no sense to me, and it makes me suspect that Steroid Era pitchers who aren’t no-doubt, first ballot Hall of Famers are getting punished for the inflated offensive environment.

Jason BMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

see also: Brown, Kevin (and to a lesser degree Santana, Johan)

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jason B

Kevin Brown was a hardcore steroid guy, in fairness.

steex
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

As a guy with multiple Buehrle jerseys, this actually does make sense to me – it’s a question of what you value most in a HOF inductee. Felix was an absolute stud, #1, ace pitcher during his peak. When he was at his peak, he is the kind of pitcher any GM dreamed of putting at the top of a rotation for a team with championship aspirations.

Now, if you asked those same GMs during the same time period “which pitcher would feel comfortable giving a 10-year contract to be a solid #2 that you’re happy to see starting in the playoffs?” – I think Buehrle would be at the top of many wish lists for the mix of quality, reliability, and durability. Sometimes he’d be your best pitcher, but you’d always be happy to have him go.

Obviously that isn’t the only question nor is it the only way to approach voting, but I do think it’s a way that has validity with good judgment applied. They’re different paths to their respective career WARs, and I can easily picture valuing one more highly than the other.

As for my personal feelings on Buehrle getting in, I feel people are valuing things like “postseason appearances” and “strikeouts” too highly while drastically undervaluing things like “postseason appearances while tipsy” and “rain delay tarp slides.”

Last edited 1 year ago by steex
Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  steex

Crazy thing is that Buehrle had just as many 6+ rWAR seasons and more 4+ rWAR seasons than Felix.

He just didn’t have the highlights or headlines that Felix did in his 6 year run.

ichiro262Member since 2024
1 year ago

It’s hard for me to get over the fact that Buehrle and Pettitte were never in the conversation of the best pitcher in baseball. Arguably they were never even in the top 5. Whereas Felix was a Cy Young award winner and two-time runner-up, which matches the perception of him being a top 5 pitcher for at least a 5-year period.

Pettitte and Buehrle were both very good, but IMO never great.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

But even with the inflated offensive environment, Pettitte only had an ERA+ better than 120 5 times. That’s good, because he was a good pitcher, but he really wasn’t head and shoulders better than other above-average pitchers of his era

marchandman34Member since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

A couple of challenges weighing Pettitte’s candidacy:

  1. The Yankees defense was somewhere between not good and putrid, the interplay credit between them and Pettitte can alter your opinion significantly. He looks like a guy with somewhere between high 50s to high 60s regular season career WAR.
  2. He had a season plus of post-season play of innings at his regular season rate, helping his team win multiple world series titles, on the order of 5-8 high leverage WAR.
PressXToJason
1 year ago
Reply to  marchandman34

This is one of the things that baffled me about Jeter being so close to unanimous. He anchored (derogatory) the Yankees’ defenses for 20 years from the cornerstone defensive position of shortstop. If you had a league, average glove in his place, guys like Pettitte and Sabathia would be faring even better here.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PressXToJason

Pitching JAWS adjusts for Jeter’s terrible defense (which DRS hates more than UZR!)…just like it docks Glavine for Jones’ mastery.

Anyway, Jeter’s a 70 WAR/55 JAWS guy.

No-doubt, inner-circle type even with the lousy SS defense.

Last edited 1 year ago by Cool Lester Smooth
tootblan
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

I love Pettitte and think he merits serious consideration, but realistically he was a great #2 starter for almost his entire career, whereas Felix was one of the very best in baseball for a decade. I understand voting for Felix over Pettitte, they basically have inverse HOF resumes with Felix all about peak and Pettitte all about longevity and postseason success.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  tootblan

My issue is that absolute longest span wherein Felix can be considered to have been “one of the very best pitchers in baseball” is from 2009-2015…and that’s not a decade.

Buehrle was a Top 5 pitcher in 2001 and a Top 20 pitcher in 2012.

Tim Hudson was a Top 25 pitcher in 1999 and a Top 7 pitcher in 2010.

Felix is benefiting from a load of Johan-related buyers’ remorse when he’s “just” Tim Hudson with better marketing and less longevity.

I love the energy…but save it for Cole Hamels next year.

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago

I will never get the Omar Vizquel love. Sure he was an elite defensive SS, but his career wRC is 81. Plus, catcher defense is more important than SS. So, elite defensive catchers deserve the hall far sooner than Vizquel. Plus, he nearly went to jail for having sex with a minor, so that should cost him some votes as well.

soddingjunkmailMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

I think the argument comes down to:

For shortstops, he’s the all time leader in fielding percentage, games played, double plays. 3rd most hits all time for a SS(behind Jeter and Honus Wagner) with over 2,800 hits.

Of course, we know there’s more to value than this, but if you’re OK with compilers, then he hung around long enough to compile some numbers while collecting quite a bit of defensive hardware.

30 years ago he’d have gotten elected easily, but we know a bit more these days about the contributions that win baseball games.

CC AFCMember since 2016
1 year ago

People legitimately thought he was the best defensive shortstop not named Ozzie Smith when he was playing. Mostly because he made a bunch of spectacular bare handed plays and we didn’t have a good way of objectively measuring defense back then.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

He was pretty good defensively. His main problem, aside from not being as good a defender as Ozzie Smith (who is?), is that he was also a worse hitter than Ozzie Smith.

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

“…he was also a worse hitter than Ozzie Smith.”

To you and me, yes. Because we understand that context matters and we have an understanding of the advanced stats that show that Smith was a better hitter.

But lots of reporters are illiterate when it comes to number, math, stats, etc. (this applies to reporters in lots of fields, not just sports). So they see this:

Smith: .262/.337/.328
Vizquel: .272/.336/.352

And say..same, same.

pitts1971Member since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  CC AFC

A few HoF voters stated that they thought Vizquel was a better fielder than Ozzie Smith.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  pitts1971

Those HoF voters are on drugs. Ozzie Smith was superhuman and he was like that for virtually his entire career.

The only other shortstops in his class are Rey Ordonez and Mark Belanger, neither of whom could hit even a little.

Chili Davis Eyes
1 year ago

Wow, weird votes for Russell Martin and Brian McCann.

Here are a few catchers with higher career bWAR: Gene Tenace, Thurmon Munson, Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg, Lance Parrish, Jorge Posada, and Jason Kendall. All of them belong in the Hall of Very Good, like Martin and McCann.

Gregory BellMember since 2020
1 year ago

The whole point is that bWAR doesn’t capture the immense value of catcher defense.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago

bWAR specifically does not include framing, at which Martin was transcendent.

PC1970Member since 2024
1 year ago

While true, all of those guys played before it could be accounted for. For all we know, maybe Jim Sundberg or Bob Boone or Thurman Munson was a transcendent framer, too & it just wasn’t quantifiable.

That’s the biggest issue I have with using fWAR for catchers. We really have no data to match Martin & McCann vs all of the catchers that came before them because they’re being credited with a skill that no one could quantify until recently.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

Yep. A new stat that only benefits guys from recent eras gives me pause. I could see a guy like Sundberg having huge fWAR totals if he played in the modern era.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  PC1970

I mean, if we’re talking Munson…Jay has spent over a decade pounding the table for him, on the basis that we need more catchers in the Hall.

Also, Jay’s model uses framing numbers going back to 1988, so we know that Piazza was a damn good framer!

Dmjn53
1 year ago

The whole point of this discussion is that bWAR doesn’t include framing

Youppi!
1 year ago

The Felix dilemma foreshadows what voters will have to wrestle with in 10 or so years when the bulk of future SP eligible players will have had similar high-peak, short careers due to the evolving nature of SP in today’s game. So few SP will have the career counting stats and so many will have had shorter careers due to the nature of modern pitching that Felix is in essence the tip of HOF SP iceberg. I believe some of the more savvy minded voters foresee this.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Youppi!

Of course, Felix is younger than Scherzer/Greinke/Verlander…and there’s no smoking gun injury.

He just lost a tick and either couldn’t or wouldn’t adjust.

LouisMember since 2024
1 year ago

JAWS is a relative standard, based on the folks already in the HOF. The reason JAWS has been an effective analytic tool is because the HOF’s standards (unlike some other sports halls) have been exceedingly high. If you enshrine players with JAWS below, or well below, the analytic standard — as this ballot would — you lower the standard for future elections. Accordingly, if you’re going to vote for people based on revised interpretations of value, you shouldn’t just compare them to players already in the HOF, but also to players not in the Hall. As an example, one should compare McCann’s 32 career WAR to Munson (46.1 WAR) and Posada (42.7 WAR) (at bats for all three are about the same, although Munson played fewer seasons). To me, I don’t care how great a framer McCann was, if he’s in the HOF one can’t explain why Posada and Munson (and others, including Posey, Tenace, Wally Schang, Freehan and Darrell Porter, all with career WAR over 40) aren’t. And it’s not just a matter of fairness to Posada, Munson or McCann. It is a question of what kind of Hall you want to have.

francis xavier pfefferMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  Louis

McCann’s fWar is 52.1. If you don’t care how great a framer he was, that’s fine, you do you, but you are discounting about 20 career wins by doing so 🤷‍♂️

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago

If I have to choose one model to measure catcher performance, it’s DEFINITELY gonna be the one that says Ryan Doumit was a lot better than Jeff Mathis.

BreadbakerMember since 2022
1 year ago
Reply to  Louis

I don’t take a position on Martin in the Hall, but if you don’t understand why Wally Schang isn’t in the Hall while Martin is under consideration right now, I can’t help you. Same with Posey, Tenace, Freehan (one of my favorite players growing up) and Porter aren’t. Or Posada and Munson. If you were a BBWAA member and voted against Martin solely because those men weren’t currently in the Hall, I’d take away your vote if I had the power.

docgooden85Member since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  Breadbaker

Fwar has gotten extremely carried away with rewarding catchers for intentionally deceiving umpires into making incorrect calls.

Bwar is a better measuring stick (and Gwar is a better art-rock band).

LeschiLarryMember since 2025
1 year ago

There is no doubt that Felix’s 10 year period was an HOF-worthy stretch, but agree that there is still not much precedent for 10-year brilliance gaining entry. You don’t finish 1,2,2,4,7,8 in Cy Young and share top WAR for 7 of those years with Kershaw and Greinke, let alone top the AL in several metrics for a longer stretch (9-10 years) and not be considered one of the top 3-5 pitchers of his “era” much less the AL. HOWEVER Felix just wore out. He wore out from being a “horse” that a .450 win % team tried to ride every time he took the mound. As Jay pointed out, only Fernando V posted more innings than Felix through age 33. You can also look at other approximations of his excellent via advanced metrics such as xFIP- etc. and also WPA (where two negative years as he was finishing his career taint the total a bit, but the individual years are huge.) Even moreso than playing for a .450 team for 10 years, the Mariners had NO offense in those years. Felix pitched under huge duress throughout most of his starts, either keeping his team in 1-0, 2-0, 1-1 or scoreless ties. Those pitches added up. Not sure if there is any metric (I realize WPA attempts to measure some of this) that shows the “leverage” of his pitches throughout his career, but he WORKED.

MattStats5Member since 2024
1 year ago

My favorite post-Christmas present! Thanks Jay.

petewheeler
1 year ago

Wow I can’t wait to hear Russell Martin and Brian McCann’s speeches at Cooperstown – said no one ever.
Seriously unnaceptable choices while leaving off Buehrle, Pettitte, A-Rod, heck even Manny, Pedroia, and Wright are better choices!
Pitch framing is one of the most overrated things in sports and will soon be irrelevant thanks to an automated strike zone. If you have to vote for McCann and Martin to justify a future vote for Yadier Molina – maybe just don’t vote for Yadier Molina then?

dl80Member since 2026
1 year ago

I know no one cares, but I wouldn’t put Abreu, Felix, or either of the catchers. I would add Manny and ARod.

I could be talked into Pettite or out of CC.

Matt MaisonMember since 2017
1 year ago

Fernando Valenzuela
Bo Jackson
Don Mattingly

theparkstrikersMember since 2016
1 year ago

So, let me get this straight. In the opinion of writers, and the creators of “pitch framing” analytics, Martin is worthy of HOF. When his own teams (Dodgers, Yankees, Pirates), the teams who saw him in real time had the choice of keeping him, they all said “nah, we’ll pass.” What’s next, runs saved by “hey, batter, batter.”

MikeD
1 year ago

Martin and McCann are creations of the recent pitch-framing movement, but the substantial problem is we’re trying to compare them to catchers across the ages with no data, and in other cases we’re attempting retroactive looks. They look good because their competition played under different rules. I would not be excluding your 11th and 12th choices for either of these catchers.