Rolen Into Cooperstown: BBWAA Voters Avoid Shutout

The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2023 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
There’s joy in Cooperstown after all. Amid considerable pessimism heading into Tuesday regarding the prospect of any candidate receiving at least 75% from the writers on this year’s Hall of Fame ballot, Scott Rolen gained entry after all. The top returning candidate on this year’s ballot received 76.2% of the vote from the writers, thus completing one of the greatest comebacks in modern electoral history. When he debuted on the 2018 ballot, Rolen received just 10.2% of the vote; no other post-1966 candidate has rallied from such meager beginnings to cross the 75% threshold via the BBWAA voters.
A masterful, athletic defender with the physical dimensions of a tight end (he was listed at 6-foot-4, 245 pounds), Rolen excelled on both sides of the ball. The 1997 NL Rookie of the Year went on to make seven All-Star teams, earn eight Gold Gloves, and star for two pennant-wining Cardinals teams, with a World Series performance that helped the Redbirds win it all in 2006. He ranks third among third basemen in Baseball Reference’s version of fielding runs, and by most measures he also ranks among the position’s top 15 or 20 hitters. Even given that injuries significantly curtailed several of his seasons, and that he played his final game at age 37, that offense/defense combination is enough to place him 10th among third basemen in both career WAR (70.1) and JAWS (56.9).
This is the second year in a row that the writers have elected just one candidate, that after a record-setting surge of 22 players elected from 2014-20 and then a shutout in ’21. And it was a nail-biter. Rolen may not have the level of fame of the 2022-elected David Ortiz or the 2020-elected Derek Jeter, but bolstered by the advanced stats and the statheads themselves (ahem), he had increased his share of the vote in dramatic fashion during his time on the ballot, jumping from 17.2% in 2019 to 35.3% in ’20, then 52.9% in ’21 and 63.2% last year. Yet as recently as Monday, his odds of getting elected this year looked slim based upon the data in Ryan Thibodaux’s Ballot Tracker, and it appeared that the writers were about to produce their second electoral shutout in three years and their third in the last 11. Forty-eight hours prior to the results being announced, forecaster Jason Sardell’s probablistic model — which groups voters based upon the number of candidates they include on their ballots and their electoral stance on PED users — gave Rolen just a 12% chance of election. Nearly 24 hours later, those odds had slipped to 9%, as I noted in my update earlier today. A surge of ballots late in the afternoon boosted those odds back up to 24% by the time the announcement was made, but suspense was in the air as Hall of Fame president Josh Rawitch opened the envelope to announce the results.
The three-to-one shot came in, nosing across the line by just five votes. Meanwhile, Todd Helton, whose pre-election share via the Tracker was just two points lower than that of Rolen (78.7% to 80.7%), received 72.2%, missing election by just 11 votes. Three other candidates, namely Billy Wagner (68.1%), Andruw Jones (58.1%), and Gary Sheffield (55%), gained at least 14% and finished above 50%, giving them good shots of eventual election, while 10th-year candidate Jeff Kent and first-year candidate Carlos Beltrán both received 46.5%. Beltrán and Francisco Rodríguez (10.8%) were the only candidates from among the 14 newcomers to receive at least 5% and thus retain eligibility for next year; seven were shut out completely while five received a token vote.
The two candidates who were suspended for violating the game’s drug policy, Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez, both burned another year of eligibility, netting percentages in the mid-30s. They’re afterthoughts, and anybody surprised by their tepid reception from the majority of voters is invited to review the course of the candidacies of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, neither of whom was suspended for using performance-enhancing drugs but both of whom came closer to eventual election.
What follows here are a few quick take-home points from the electoral results. I’ll have a candidate-by-candidate breakdown in my next installment.
Eking It Out
Rolen became the seventh player since 1966 to gain entry by five or fewer votes. He’s the closest call in six years:
| Player | Year | Votes | % | Margin |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ralph Kiner | 1975 | 273 | 75.41% | 1 |
| Fergie Jenkins | 1991 | 334 | 75.40% | 1 |
| Early Wynn | 1972 | 301 | 76.01% | 3 |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 2017 | 336 | 76.02% | 4 |
| Catfish Hunter | 1987 | 315 | 76.27% | 5 |
| Ryne Sandberg | 2005 | 393 | 76.16% | 5 |
| Scott Rolen | 2023 | 297 | 76.35% | 5 |
| Lou Boudreau | 1970 | 232 | 77.33% | 6 |
| Larry Walker | 2020 | 304 | 76.57% | 6 |
| Jim Rice | 2009 | 412 | 76.44% | 7 |
| Mike Mussina | 2019 | 326 | 76.71% | 7 |
On the other side of the coin, within the last decade both Craig Biggio (two votes short in 2014) and Trevor Hoffman (five shy in 2017) had closer near-misses than Helton. Both were elected the following year.
The Big Comeback
As noted above, since the writers returned to annual voting in 1966, no candidate debuted with a lower share of the vote than Rolen and was able to reach 75% via the writers:
| Player | Year | % | Year Elected | YoB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Scott Rolen | 2018 | 10.2% | 2023 | 6 |
| Duke Snider | 1970 | 17.0% | 1980 | 11 |
| Bert Blyleven | 1998 | 17.5% | 2011 | 14 |
| Larry Walker | 2011 | 20.3% | 2020 | 10 |
| Mike Mussina | 2014 | 20.3% | 2019 | 6 |
Rolen’s 10.2% didn’t happen in a vacuum. As I noted in his candidate profile, 10 candidates on the 2018 ballot had a JAWS at or above the standards at their positions, and 13 had a JAWS of at least 50; Rolen was competing for space with four players who were elected that year, three more who would be elected by the writers over the next few years, plus Bonds, Clemens, and Curt Schilling. Those overcrowded ballots required voters to perform triage, which rarely bodes well for players with nine years of eligibility remaining.
Helton is very likely to crack this list next year, as he received just 16.5% in 2019, and Wagner who received 10.5% in ’16, could wind up on there as well. If/when they’re elected, both would also join the leaderboard for a similar list of the lowest percentages received by a modern BBWAA-elected candidate at any point during their run, a list that Rolen barely missed topping; Wagner (10.18% in 2017) would actually cut it even closer:
| Player | Year | YoB | % | Year Elected |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Larry Walker | 2014 | 4 | 10.16% | 2020 |
| Scott Rolen | 2018 | 1 | 10.19% | 2023 |
| Larry Walker | 2015 | 5 | 11.84% | 2020 |
| Bert Blyleven | 1999 | 2 | 14.08% | 2011 |
| Larry Walker | 2016 | 6 | 15.45% | 2020 |
| Duke Snider | 1970 | 1 | 17.00% | 1980 |
| Bert Blyleven | 2000 | 3 | 17.43% | 2011 |
| Bert Blyleven | 1998 | 1 | 17.55% | 2011 |
| Larry Walker | 2011 | 1 | 20.31% | 2020 |
| Mike Mussina | 2014 | 1 | 20.32% | 2019 |
Is it a coincidence that Blyleven, Mussina, Rolen, and Walker all gained traction as voters came to appreciate their candidacies in light of advanced statistics? You be the judge.
Beginnings and Endings
In an odd coincidence, Kent, the ballot’s lone 10th-year candidate, and Beltrán, easily the best of the first-year candidates, matched percentages at 46.5%. This may look at first glance to be too little, too late for Kent, but in his first six years on the ballot, he didn’t even break 20%, and he didn’t reach 30% until his eighth year, 2021, when he received 32.4%. He stagnated last year, increasing his share by just 0.3%, but thanks to a modest surge, his final share of the vote is higher than those of both Alan Trammell (40.9% in 2016) and Fred McGriff (39.8% in 2019) — and both were soon elected by Era Committees. While he ranks just 21st in JAWS among second basemen and thus never landed on my ballots (virtual or real), his status as the all-time leader in home runs by a second baseman will likely play well in front of a committee where Hall of Fame players account for half of the votes. He’ll be eligible for inclusion on the 2026 Contemporary Baseball Era Committee ballot, assuming the Hall doesn’t change the format again in the interim.
As for Beltrán, his statistical qualifications — 2,725 hits, 435 homers, 312 steals with an 86.4% success rate, ninth in JAWS among center fielders — are impressive, but voters gave him a less-than-rousing reception in the wake of the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal, which cost him his job as Mets manager. Debuting at 46.5% is nothing to sneeze at, however. Every modern candidate who’s received at least 41.7% in their first year has eventually been elected either via the writers or a small committee. It’s not out of the question that a large enough bloc of voters will hold Beltrán’s sign-stealing involvement against him to the extent that the rules of electoral gravity don’t apply, as was the case for Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling, albeit for entirely different reasons. Still, it seems more likely than not he’ll wind up in Cooperstown… eventually.
The Incredible Shrinking Ballot Got Even Smaller
The writers cast just 389 ballots, five fewer than in 2022, and the lowest total since 374 voted in 1983. They were less generous than at any time in the past decade; on a ballot that lacked a slam-dunk choice among the newcomers — particularly given Beltrán’s baggage — voters averaged just 5.86 votes per ballot, the lowest share since 2012, when they averaged just 5.1 while electing only Barry Larkin. Just 13.9% of voters used all 10 slots on their ballots, the lowest total in at least a decade. Here’s the data going back to 2012:
| Year | Votes | Votes Per Ballot | All 10 | Elected | Blank |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2012 | 573 | 5.10 | N/A | 1 | 9 |
| 2013 | 569 | 6.60 | 22% | 0 | 5 |
| 2014 | 571 | 8.39 | 50% | 3 | 1 |
| 2015 | 549 | 8.42 | 51% | 4 | 1 |
| 2016 | 440 | 7.95 | 41.6% | 2 | N/A |
| 2017 | 442 | 8.17 | 45.2% | 3 | 2 |
| 2018 | 422 | 8.46 | 50.0% | 4 | 1 |
| 2019 | 425 | 8.01 | 42.8% | 4 | 0 |
| 2020 | 397 | 6.61 | 20.5% | 2 | N/A |
| 2021 | 401 | 5.87 | 14.5% | 0 | 14 |
| 2022 | 394 | 7.11 | 33.8% | 1 | 6 |
| 2023 | 389 | 5.86 | 13.9% | 1 | 8 |
Note that at most there were two blank ballots in 2016 and one in ’19, as Ken Griffey Jr. and Jeter came close to unanimity; the BBWAA did not report blank ballot totals in those years, and the best guess is that nobody sent one in either time. Blanks count in the denominator and thus require three “yes” votes apiece to offset, but while this year’s eight blanks nearly prevented Rolen’s election, they did not actually block Helton. Had those voters practiced their jump shots with crumpled-up ballots instead of sticking a stamp on them, candidates would have needed to be named on 286 of 381 ballots to reach the 75% threshold; Helton received 282 votes.
Big Gains, Plus One Notable Exception
With Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and Sammy Sosa no longer taking up space on ballots — they occupied an average of 3.1 slots last year — voters had ample room to add players they hadn’t previously included, whether because they lacked the space or weren’t yet convinced. Six candidates increased their shares of the vote by at least 10%, led by Helton’s 20.2% increase. Only one candidate lost support relative to 2022, namely Omar Vizquel. In the wake of allegations of both domestic violence against his wife and sexual harassment of a batboy while managing in the minors, he’s lost support in each of the last three cycles, tumbling from 52.6% in 2020 down below 20% this year:
| Player | YoB | Votes | 2023% | 2022% | Change |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Scott Rolen | 6 | 297 | 76.3% | 63.2% | 13.1% |
| Todd Helton | 5 | 281 | 72.2% | 52.0% | 20.2% |
| Billy Wagner | 8 | 265 | 68.1% | 51.0% | 17.1% |
| Andruw Jones | 6 | 226 | 58.1% | 41.1% | 17.0% |
| Gary Sheffield | 9 | 214 | 55.0% | 40.6% | 14.4% |
| Carlos Beltran | 1 | 181 | 46.5% | — | — |
| Jeff Kent* | 10 | 181 | 46.5% | 32.7% | 13.8% |
| Alex Rodriguez | 2 | 139 | 35.7% | 34.3% | 1.4% |
| Manny Ramirez | 7 | 129 | 33.2% | 28.9% | 4.3% |
| Omar Vizquel | 6 | 76 | 19.5% | 23.9% | -4.4% |
| Andy Pettitte | 5 | 66 | 17.0% | 10.7% | 6.3% |
| Bobby Abreu | 4 | 60 | 15.4% | 8.6% | 6.8% |
| Jimmy Rollins | 2 | 50 | 12.9% | 9.4% | 3.5% |
| Mark Buehrle | 3 | 42 | 10.8% | 5.8% | 5.0% |
| Francisco Rodríguez | 1 | 42 | 10.8% | — | — |
| Torii Hunter | 3 | 27 | 6.9% | 5.3% | 1.6% |
| Bronson Arroyo* | 1 | 1 | 0.3% | — | — |
| R.A. Dickey* | 1 | 1 | 0.3% | — | — |
| John Lackey* | 1 | 1 | 0.3% | — | — |
| Mike Napoli* | 1 | 1 | 0.3% | — | — |
| Huston Street* | 1 | 1 | 0.3% | — | — |
| Matt Cain* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
| Jacoby Ellsbury* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
| Andre Ethier* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
| J.J. Hardy* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
| Jhonny Peralta* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
| Jered Weaver* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
| Jayson Werth* | 1 | 0 | 0.0% | — | — |
I’ll have more on every candidate in my next installment.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Glad to see this. I was a little worried that Rolen was going to last until Beltre was on the ballot and then some voters would have another excuse not to vote for him. It’s great to see him get in now to avoid all that.
At the very least, Rolen flunks the eye test. 8 time gold glove winner? Seriously? This his key to entrance? Walks directly into the Harold Baines wing of the HOF. The common denominator for electability continues its downward trajectory into what has become an irrelevant institution.
Scott Rolen, Hall of Stats rating of 142. Career Fangraphs WAR 69.9.
Harold Bains, Hall of Stats rating of 58. Career Fangraphs WAR 38.4
JAW for Rolen is above the Hall of Fame average for 3B.
Yep, nearly identical, if you’re blind. Which is also what’s needed for you to think Rolen flunks the eye test.
Here’s a fact: Rolen is a little short of the HOF averages for 3rd basemen.
Here’s another: That standard has been a huge problem. 3rd base is the most unrepresented position in the HOF (even with Rolen’s election) because it is a position with defensive limitations where the voters have traditionally still required candidates to hit like they play a primarily offensive position (1B, LF, RF, etc). This has created an unrealistically high standard at the position, and lead to significant underrepresentation.
The reality is that Scott Rolen is one of the best 3rd basemen of all time. His defense is part of that. His bat does not measure up to dudes who played 1st base or right field. 3rd basemen almost never do.
The HOF standard at 3rd base has historically been too high. It has taken guys who play a position where defense is a significant concern and evaluated them like they were bat-only players, and only the most magnificent of them have managed to pass that test. Rolen is not a Harold Baines. He is more comparable to an Ivan Rodriguez: someone who is counted among the highest ranks of their peers, but who looks somewhat pale compared to inductees at many other positions.
At catcher and shortstop and second base, voters have done a good job of adapting to the reality that defense is a significant consideration and the offensive bar at the position should not be the same as it is for a right fielder. They have traditionally failed to do this at 3rd base. Rolen’s election will help erode this extra barrier, because 3rd base is quite unfairly under-represented.
If you are one of the 15 or 20 best players in history at your position (and Rolen is that), you should be in the Hall of Fame.
EXACTLY!
I signed in to dislike this comment
Thank you for your service!
In the hand of Rolen patraplyaê pіd oїnom viprobuvannja. 8 Are you wearing gloves? Ozbi? What do you want to do? He goes in right on the flank of Harold Baines from the HOF. ajednički ora astavlya aznu anyu a to one o obekame a
Even the auto-translator thought that comment wasn’t worth reading.
This account is so tired
If your goal was to get the most disliked comment in fangraph history, you probably will have succeeded.
Are you jealous?
I think that the main reason this got downvoted so much is because it seems like the poster has literally never read a single thing Jay has written, much less about Scott Rolen. It’s one thing to state wrong opinions, it’s another to do so while entering a discussion where the specific issues have already been discussed.
Clarification: I’ve read many of Jaffe’s columns. To think Rolen is a HOFer is simply delusional. But here we are. He gets a plaque. What a cheapened institution.
Oh yes, Rolen sure does cheapen an institution with Lloyd Waner and Freddie Linstrom in it. The Hall became a big hall in the 1960’s when the let a ton of under-credentialed early game guys in. Stop acting like it is Ruth, Mays, Williams, and now Rolen.
I’m surprised Helton has gotten such a huge bump. He really tailed off after that five year peak and his career WAR is really small for someone who played until he was 39. Combined with the Coors effect and the fact that most of his years we pre-humidor, I would have thought his candidacy was DOA. By all accounts he was a really great guy though, and I suppose that gets you a heck of a lot of votes. It seems to be the common denominator on all questionable candidacies.
Helton is very borderline for me, more in the Lance Berkman hall-of-great by my eyes. But Keith Hernandez is still better and more deserving than both.
I think the arguing over Helton is extremely small stakes since we’re going to induct a guy five years from now who is something like the 2nd or 3rd greatest first baseman ever (Albert Pujols), about 6 or 7 years away from inducting two guys that blow Helton out of the water (Miguel Cabrera, Joey Votto) and about 8 years away from inducting a guy who will be at that point (Paul Goldschmidt).
This is not like Larry Walker or anything.
Good post except I’d bet Goldschmidt is 10 years away, not 8.
& Freddie Freeman is probably 12-13 years away & will likely blow Helton out of the water, too.
Ya Goldy feels like a guy who is going to play to 40 to me, at least.
I agree it’s not like Walker…because Helton was a hell of a lot worse at baseball than Walker.
Or, rather, that Walker is a hell of a lot better.
Fair.
The downvotes on this comment is wrong; Helton is absolutely borderline. He’s right at the JAWS line and that’s with using bWAR’s DRS, which has a tendency to give extreme values for the best and worst defenders (he’s got 7 more wins or something like that in bWAR than fWAR). You can make an argument for him but don’t pretend like it’s obvious.
I’m still rather annoyed about Lance Berkman dropping off the ballot immediately while Helton gets a whole legion of people treating him as an obvious hall of famer. But if Helton gets in, I guess it won’t bother me that much more than Berkman dropping off so fast. Players at the margins like Berkman and Abreu and Helton are always difficult.
There’s always going to be a “best X not in the Hall of Fame”.
The rules causing one-and-dones like Berkman is the big culprit. The Helton vs Berkman argument is a bit like the Andruw Jones vs. Jim Edmonds discussion I had here a couple days ago – the biggest injustices tend to come from guys who fall off, don’t get a second look, then have to wait upon the mercy of the Veterans Committee section that they might get to fall under (assuming that they even get a look).
So guys like Berkman, Edmonds, Lofton and Grich are pretty much screwed by the existing system. That makes the long-running candidacies of guys like Helton and Jones a bit of salt in the wounds of supporters of guys who were one-and-done despite being roughly as well-qualified.
Agreed..& of course, the BBWAA vote plays a de facto role in the Veteran’s Committee nominees & selections.
A guy like Jeff Kent (like McGriff or Gil Hodges) that got to 40%+ on the BBWAA vote is always going to get a handful of chances from the VC.
A one year & off guy is easy to just ignore or overlook for guys that got more HOF votes when the VC nominations come out. Lou Whitaker is one of the few guys that went one & done that has gotten multiple VC shots. & Ted Simmons is one of the few that actually got in after going “one and done” on the BBWAA ballot.
Edmonds and Lofton and Grich are definitely more egregious than Berkman, too.
And Keith Hernandez’s omission is more egregious than any of them.
I even feel like Edmonds was quite a bit more qualified than guys like Helton and Jones
I agree. I’m increasingly having a hard time caring as well. Helton’s very underwhelming but fits the morality play narrative so..
Sad to be nearing the end of Jaffe szn. Next up, everyone’s totals, and then, looking ahead at ballots. Then a well-deserved break.
As much as I’m happy to see Wagner’s bump, and as a young Astros fan in the 90s nice to see him likely get in, it’s also super weird to see him be above Sheffield and Andrew Jones.
I mean come on voters. If you believe in a big hall where Wagner belongs… there has to be space for Jones and Shefield, right? One was a top hitter of the generation and the other an iconic CF. Both clearly more famous back in their playing days.
I believe all three belong.
But there’s an argument to be made that Wagner is the second best closer ever behind Mariano Riveira.
The thing I always hate is that people compare relievers to every position except relievers. Apples to Apples, please. You might as well compare Buster Posey to Willie Mays. The position is too specialized for any other form of comparative analysis. Do Jones and Shefield belong? Yeah, I think so. But saying “because Wagner can make it in, they should too” is flawed.
I compare pitchers to pitchers, because that’s the position.
A starter sent to the bullpen almost always becomes a shut down reliever. Relievers have no skill that is not demonstrated every year by starters in the playoffs when teams desperate to win use their starters out of the bullpen because the starters are their best pitchers and in the playoffs you need to use your best pitchers.
Relievers are failed starters, IMAO the bar for any reliever is somewhere around the Mariano Rivera level.
This is exactly right. It’s one of my biggest gripes with HOF voting. Billy Wagner threw 900 innings in his career. That is 4-5 full seasons for a starting pitcher. Yes, Wagner’s run prevention was off the charts, but not enough to make up for how few innings he pitched. What’s better? – a 1.57 ERA in 74.2 IP or a 3.58 ERA in 246.1 IP.
These are the stats for Billy Wagner and Jose Lima, respectively, who both pitched for the 1999 Astros; bWAR tells us they were both worth 3.8 WAR in that season. Relievers should absolutely get a boost from the higher leverage situations they have to pitch in, but the point is that WAR does a pretty damn good job of comparing the workloads of starters and relievers.
All told, Wagner ended up with 27.8 bWAR in those 900 innings. Nobody would be making a case for the Hall for a SP with 27.8 WAR.
WAR definitely doesn’t give the whole picture – narrative based arguments, off-the-field popularity, and postseason success should all play a role. That’s why Mariano Rivera deserves to be in the HOF despite his otherwise borderline 56.3 bWAR. Give him a boost for the high leverage innings he pitched, his post season dominance, and his transcendent popularity; and all of a sudden he’s a lock. He shouldn’t be in because he’s the best reliever of all time, he should be in because he’s one of the best pitchers of all time. And Wagner is not.
The public versions of WAR very emphatically do not align with how teams value relievers, though.
Edwin Diaz got the same contract as Luis Castillo.
Kenley Jansen got $16m a year.
“A starter sent to the bullpen almost always becomes a shut down reliever.” This is just an objectively false statement. Some starters have thrived in relief, but there are tons who haven’t. If every reliever is a failed starter and almost every starter could be a shut down reliever, then we should be overflowing with elite relief pitchers.
In the playoffs teams absolutely ride their best pitchers, which is usually their top couple starters and their late inning relievers. They aren’t using their back end starters over their closer, they will just ride their ace harder. In the WS and CS this past year, there was only one relief appearance by a pitcher who had made a start in the series, Ranger Suarez in game 5 of the NLCS after they had already used the 3 relievers they trusted.
The starters being used in relief in the playoffs for the key moments are usually the very best pitchers in the world and they are being used in addition to the closers and set up guys. Obviously you would rather have Max Scherzer or Madison Bumgarner pitch in a clinching game then Joe Kelly or Hunter Strickland, that doesn’t mean the Billy Wagner isn’t a hall of famer.
@68FC – Could you please explain that to Aaron Boone?
What is IMAO? Can’t be LMAO or IMHO or is it some combination?
I believe it is “Is Matt Adams Overrated?” which really didn’t seem germane to the discussion at hand
Wrong! The best relievers can get strikeouts at a higher rate and can successfully pitch on back to back (or even 3 out of 4) days, among other skills. The roles are quite different these days, and it’s extremely rare for a pitcher to be extremely good at both roles (even if given the opportunity) like John Smoltz.
Loved the guy a few weeks ago who was ranting about how John Smoltz being an elite reliever proves that any starter could do it, haha.
Like…Smoltz was a Top 5-7 starter for the three years before and after he was a Top 5-7 reliever!
My favorite “RP Innings” stat is that Trevor Hoffman had more professional innings as a catcher than as a pitcher.
But people do compare Posey to Mays. They just do it with “positional adjustment” where catchers are more rewarded for being, well, catchers. And every FA people compare contracts handed out to players of different positions all the time. For instance you can compare the Mariano Rivera of today in Edwin Diaz ($100mil/5yr) to maybe top 10ish pitcher in Carlos Rodon ($162/6yr).
Now you can argue that there should be a more quantified positional adjustment for relievers, whether it’s WPA or leverage index or whatever. Which personally I agree with. But to say players of two different positions shouldn’t be compared at all is clearly wrong. They all perform the same task, only difference is when and how much they do that task.
“The thing I always hate is that people compare relievers to every position except relievers.”
I’m not sure that’s true. Some people – like myself – compare relievers to other pitchers because that’s the position. Reliever is a role within the position.
Yes, but in that case, you should compare players with the same role, not all of those with the same position.
There is easily a case to be made there are only 4 positions in baseball, pitcher, catcher, infielder, and outfielder. It is odd that we are so dug in on the nine positions based entirely on where they have traditionally stood on defense. Is suggesting that Mike Mussina and Mariano Rivera play a different position really that much different than thinking Roberto Alomar and John Olerud played different positions. Alomar and Olerud stood 30 feet apart for years, but we accept that they should be measured by different offensive standards because Olerud stood closer to the foul line.
Fundamentally all pitchers are trying to do the same thing, get outs, just like all position players are trying to score runs or field the ball. Why are there positional adjustments for position players, but not for pitchers? Leverage index matters a ton towards winning games, but because it wasn’t being measured 100 years ago, we don’t focus on it.
WUT? Have you ever played baseball? Positions are a thing. The DH and specific bullpen roles are also a thing the game created. Why not celebrate players who thrived in their chosen role, whatever that may be?
I think we are in agreement here. My point was specific pitching roles are just as different as the various positions. I think there is a bigger difference between starting and closing than there is between a left fielder and a right fielder.
Not really, no. There are quite a few relievers I’d take on my team over Wagner (on any other one-inning specialist not named Mariano Rivera). Peak Dan Quisenberry being one of those, of course.
Not sure why this is getting down votes. I created a Hall of Fame monitor for relief pitchers, based on what has historically mattered to Hall of Fame voters when it comes to relief pitchers. The five measures are: All-Star Appearances, MVP/Cy Young shares, Postseason Appearances, Total Saves, Win Loss Totals. Weighting is done with the following results:
I think people underestimate the value of the old ace firemen relievers who tossed 100+ high leverage innings, even at maybe lower per-inning run prevention than the one-inning specialists from more modern times. And maybe a modern also underestimates just how good Quisenberry really was, maybe because he barely struck anybody out and beat his FIP consistently during his best years.
I think he short career also plays a role there. He only played in 12 seasons and kind of only had a 6 year peak.
He’s only the second best reliever by rate stats, though. The argument falls apart somewhat when considering longevity and counting stats, especially when you adjust save totals by era.
Although, Eckersley and Smoltz defy all direct comparisons.
I’ll take heat for this, but Eckersley is overrated. He had a 5-6 year run that may be the most dominant run of non-Mariano closing in the history of baseball. But the rest of his career was hit-or-miss. He was a 4-win, at best, starting pitcher. Solid, mid-rotation, but not HOF quality. His last 100 saves or so, he was a below-average closer accumulating saves based on reputation with a 4+ ERA and about a 3.75 FIP.
So yeah, Eck picked up another 100 saves in the counting stats but was not really great. Wagner left the game with hanging on through some decline phase just to accumulate more stats. I don’t knock Wagner for leaving without compiling, just like I don’t fault Eck for hanging on as long as he possibly could.
But even though Eck had the higher peak, I’d still pick Wagner to close out a game for me.
I agree, esp on Sheffield. He seems to have fallen into a weird vortex where every subset of voters can find a way NOT to vote for him, despite being an offensive force & clearly deserving:
Stats guys can ding him for his low-ish WAR due to shaky defensive stats.
Old guys can ding him for being petulant & outspoken & saying he didn’t try his best in Milwaukee & it’s proven by him moving around so often! (in their mind)
Anti PED guys can ding him for his Bond’s ties & his admitting he unknowingly used PED’s for a short time..which is enough for the hardliners.
It’s a shame. As I said, he’s clearly deserving & most of the above is some version of BS..but, here we are.
Sheffield has 7.2 more WAR in 330 more games. So, at worst they’re equal candidates. Sheffield’s wRC+ is 11 points higher, but of course Helton was a much better fielder despite the positional adjustment.
The difference for some may be that Sheffield has that PED attachment, but Helton is among those many players who suddenly shrunk and had a performance decline right when drug testing started too (and I’m among those who believe that virtually everyone was using to some extent so I’m not disqualifying him).
So, my diagnosis is that everyone knows that Sheffield was at least as good a player, but the voters are opting for Helton because he was a much nicer person…. and the PED connection with Sheffield is just a convenient excuse.
I think one argument in favor of Sheffield is just that you can argue he should not be penalized for his defensive failings because they’re a product of playing primarily for National League teams. Sheffield in effect should have been a designated hitter and if he was one he would be one with a candidacy on par with David Ortiz. His teams, however, either lacked access to the DH role or chose to fill it with other players and suffer his defense.
That’s not Sheffield’s fault: I would argue that we should cap assessments of guys defensive failings at the penalty they’d take for being DHs, and not further penalize them for their teams being either ignorant or indifferent to their defensive incapacity. In the end, players do not control how they are utilized. Many modern starting pitchers want to pitch more innings than they’re allowed to pitch. There will come a time that we’ll need to evaluate them on the basis of the fact that they pitched in a time when their teams *didn’t care* that they could build better hall of fame cases by getting 6 or 7 innings a start instead of 5 or 5.5, and consequently their counting stats are unimpressive for reasons beyond their control.
Sheffield’s something similar to that, only with oldschool defensive stats that we know are imprecise.
For perspective, Sheffield had an equivalent wRC+ (141 vs 140) in 900 extra PAs (10900 vs 10000) to Ortiz and a huge advantage in total offensive run value because he was +8 runs on the bases vs Ortiz’s -76.
If Ortiz is going to be a slam dunk election, then I don’t think there’s a reason that Sheffield should be penalized for decisions he didn’t make. If he’d simply been a career DH, he’s comfortably ahead of Ortiz.
Sheffield’s career wRC+ is tied with *Albert Pujols* for 58th best all time.
The 58th-best hitter in the history of major league baseball should be in the hall of fame.
Ortiz is very much proof of the “nice guy” rule though. He was so popular, with everyone, that he sailed in despite the PED stain AND the very low WAR (51). And he’s 75th on the w RC+ list! (Sheffield is 62).
Here are the OTHER eligible non-Hall guys above Ortiz in wRC+: Frank Howard, Gene Tenace, Bill Joyce, Kal Daniels (!), Jason Giambi, Kevin Mitchell, Jack Fournier, John McGraw, Lefty O’Doul, Dave Orr, Hack Wilson, Elmer Flick, Ross Barnes, Gavy Craveth, Dick Allen, Barry Bonds and… Mark McGwire. McGwire must just leave the country every year during Hall of Fame voting. He’s on the outs because he wouldn’t lie in front of congress and people find it convenient to believe that he was one of the few instead of one of the many.
If you cut it down to a 9000 PA minimum, which I think is reasonable for assessing ‘best hitting careers of all time’, Sheffield is tied for 27th-best all time wRC+.
He’s basically equivalent (*with* his awful defense* to Willie Stargell and Harmon Killebrew. I think it’s widely agreed those guys belong in the HOF.
The defensive metrics cost Sheffield an additional 60 runs over equivalent career 1b/DH only guys like Ortiz and Frank Thomas. Give him another 6 wins of value and it’s not even a debate.
It probably shouldn’t be a debate.
Sheffield really recoups enormous value by being an above-average net baserunner for his entire career when most guys with his offensive profile are -30 to -60 runs on the bases. For instance, it gives him a 93 run swing vs Miguel Cabrera. Only 8 of the players ahead of him in career wRC+ have equal or better baserunning value. He’s really one of the most complete offensive players of all time, because of it.
And even beyond that, his TZ/150 in the OF is so much worse than his UZR/150 and DRS/150, despite the latter numbers coming in his 30s.
You’re right. I should have included a minimum plate appearance filter that is more in line with the typical hall of famer.
Sheffield doesn’t have any DUIs, haha.
More to the point…Sheffield’s defensive stats are very wonky, as they improved dramatically as soon as batted ball data became available…in his mid-30s.
Even if you trust his IF stats as being historically awful, giving him credit for his OF UZR/150 numbers instead of TZ puts him comfortably in the 70 WAR range.
Congrats. One of the top 3B of all time.
Well, he was during his peak. The injuries and relatively early retirement kept him from being among the very best 3B.
I know the ballot was less crowded this year, but I still think it’s crazy that K-Rod got more support than Joe Nathan.
K-Rod deserves zero support. Screw that guy.
not that it matters, but I’m surprised K-Rod, Rollins, Hunter, and to a lesser extent Buehrle got enough to stay on the ballot
Buehrle did have that one play, though
I love Mark Buehrle. Excellent career, just a textbook compiler
Buehrle retired at 36, after a 2-WAR/15 win season!
He definitely could have hung on for 65 RA9-WAR/250 wins, like Pettitte and Sabathia.
The biases in late arriving ballots are interesting and maybe a bit troubling. They appear to track against the open ballots, appear to be less inclusive, and possibly just weirder.
Is there any embargo on announcing your ballot before 12/31? Because, if there is, it’s just an odd quirk of who decided to print their ballots when.
I will never forget going to the Phillies home opener one year, and hearing the crowd rain down “boos” on Rolen in his first home AB of the season.
What a…. interesting…. sports town.
I’ve been living in Philly for nearly 35 years now. You have Philly fans down perfectly. They also booed Mike Schmidt.
Ya got nothing on NY “fans.” Seen them boo Jeter and Rivera.
Of course, if Philly fans love a player…they LOVE him.
Their most beloved player, in any sport, from the last 15 years is an interior offensive lineman, haha.
Wait…Duke Snider got 17% of the vote his first year?? And we complain about today’s voters.
I’m SHOCKED that Beltrán did so well, given that I’ve been assured (via multiple dissembling meltdowns) that a good defensive CF with 2700 hits, 400 HR, and historically great postseason numbers had ZERO APPEAL to traditional voters!!!!
Can anyone explain this outcome???