Someone’s Going to Trade for Dylan Cease

Let’s be honest: Dylan Cease is in the general baseball consciousness to such an extent right now because it’s all we have. The free agent class of 2023-24 was weak to begin with, and Shohei Ohtani and Yoshinobu Yamamoto have already signed. Juan Soto is now a Yankee. Tyler Glasnow got traded. Cease is such a focus because the shiniest free agents are gone and because if your team isn’t going to spend any money – Hi there, O’s! – he’s the best imaginable improvement.
Cease is a good pitcher with flaws. He’s a strikeout machine thanks to his glorious slider, and he’s made every start available to him for four straight years. He also walks far too many batters – partially thanks to his glorious slider – and despite sitting 95-97 mph, his fastball is remarkably hittable. Add that all up, and his aggregate numbers over that four-year span – 3.58 ERA, 3.70 FIP, 12.3 WAR in 585 innings – are excellent. But he always feels one bad start away from regression, one batter realizing that slider is unhittable away from a six-walk outing.
All that is to say that Cease probably isn’t the no-doubt ace that his 2022 season portended, but he’s a very good pitcher nonetheless. Steamer thinks he’s somewhere between the 21st and 40th best pitcher in baseball, which isn’t as good as his results, but I’m willing to take the over on that projection because a lot of it seems to rely on his home run prevention declining meaningfully. If your team has Cease as their second-best pitcher in 2024, they’re probably ecstatic about the top of their rotation. If they have him penciled in as their best pitcher, they might still be okay! He’s good, is my point.
Okay, that part of the article is done. If you’re a fan of a contending team, you should want Dylan Cease on it – duh. Now here’s the less fun part: You’re not going to like the kind of trade package he fetches in return. Depending on which rumors you’re listening to, the White Sox are looking for multiple top Reds prospects, interesting Orioles guys, or much more than just Vaughn Grissom (before the Braves sent him to Boston).
From a raw surplus value perspective, that’s gonna sting. You can do the math yourself. Let’s say Cease accrues 6 WAR over the next two years, a rosier outlook than Steamer’s. Let’s further say that he makes $20 million in that time; $8 million this year and $12 million next year. You can apply a generic $8.5 million per WAR to get the broad outlines of what that might run you on the open market. It won’t be a perfect approximation, but that would put him around $50 million in value, $30 million more than he’s actually making.
Getting to employ someone like Cease for far less than he’s worth – and having the certainty of adding him to your team for two years with no commitment thereafter – is wildly desirable. It’s so desirable, in fact, that teams will have to give up that other thing they enjoy so much to get him: prospects. It’s a fairly straightforward transaction. For the right to employ Cease at a rate lower than he’d make were he a free agent, the White Sox want the right to employ some prospects at rates lower than they’d make were they also free agents.
How many prospects? We don’t yet know. Looking at recent trades for pitching, however, we can get a ballpark idea. For one year of Glasnow plus exclusive negotiating rights for an extension, the Dodgers surrendered Ryan Pepiot, who’s probably a 45+ FV guy in our prospect grading terminology, and Jonny DeLuca, more of a 40+ FV, though I have him as a 45 myself. They also agreed to pay $12 million to Manuel Margot, though I’m mostly going to ignore that for simplicity’s sake.
Glasnow is a better pitcher than Cease when available. I don’t think that’s a particularly controversial statement – projection systems agree, and Glasnow has handily outproduced Cease on a per-inning basis in the past five years. He’s also made a scant 60 starts in that window and never eclipsed 120 innings in a season, so there are certainly injury concerns. Cease has made more than twice as many starts in that same stretch – he debuted in 2019 – and thus has been more valuable despite worse numbers. If Cease and Glasnow were both going to be free agents after the 2024 season, I’d probably surrender more for Glasnow, but you get an entire extra year of team control with Cease. How much more? Double sounds about right given the money and years of control.
A similar deal went down at last year’s trade deadline: two-plus years of Justin Verlander (at a $40 million rate after the Mets kicked in salary) for Drew Gilbert and Ryan Clifford, 50 and 45+ FV prospects respectively. Another comp: the Pablo López/Luis Arraez swap from last offseason. Like Cease, López was two years away from free agency when he got dealt. I think the Marlins let him go for too little, but even then, he and two prospects (Jose Salas and Byron Chourio) got traded for Arraez, a top 50 trade target, at least in my estimation, at the time.
In other words, pitchers with high upside and multiple years of team control remaining don’t come cheaply. If you interpolate those trades, plus a few similar ideas (Max Scherzer to the Rangers, Luis Castillo to the Mariners, even Frankie Montas to the Yankees), you can start to get an idea of what might get Cease out of the black and white and into a new team’s jersey. Let’s take the average of those trades; we’re probably looking at a 50 FV prospect and meaningful extras beyond that, perhaps a 45+ FV or riskier 50 FV type, or multiple lower-level prospects.
That will probably make the prospect huggers of the world irate. Craig Edwards’ 2018 prospect valuation estimate pegs that return at something in the $40 million – $50 million range. Those numbers have likely crept higher, too, given five years of inflation in the interim, though I’ll note that he used a $9 million per WAR number in estimating it, so it’s not too far from what I was already calculating.
These trades sound like a lot! The rumored package that GM Chris Getz wanted from Cincinnati was two 45 FV prospects and a 45+ – Rhett Lowder, Edwin Arroyo, and Connor Phillips. I wouldn’t be surprised to see several of those players bumped higher on our updated Reds list, either; Lowder and Phillips have some helium, though Lowder’s is based exclusively on his college career, as he still hasn’t made his pro debut after being drafted seventh overall this past summer.
The deal that pries Cease from the White Sox might not quite match that haul, but it certainly doesn’t seem beyond the realm of possibility to me. The reason for that is reflected in all those previous trades: Teams covet elite starting pitching more than almost anything else in baseball, and they’re willing to give up a commensurate amount of talent when trading for it.
Think of it this way: Hitters who have been roughly as good as Cease get traded sometimes, but they never get traded for this much. Eugenio Suárez has been an above-average contributor, and like Cease he followed a sublime 2022 with an iffy 2023. He got salary dumped, though he’s only due $13 million this year (with a club option for 2025). Sean Murphy had been much better than Cease when he got dealt, and give or take the confusing nature of the three-team trade, I think his return roughly mirrors Verlander’s. Average position players on short deals just aren’t that desirable in trade, regardless of what the WAR numbers might say.
But not every team needs a Suárez type bat. Contending teams in particular do a good job of generating those types of players, either via platoon or just because they can find free agents or minor league talent that can fill the void. To give you an idea of this, I looked at Dan Szymborski’s 2024 ZiPS projections for the 16 teams in baseball with the best odds of winning the World series (teams 15 and 16 are tied, otherwise I would have done 15). I looked at the projection for their weakest position player, as well as their fifth starter:
| Team | Worst Hitter WAR | Position | 5th Starter WAR |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dodgers | 1.8 | LF | 1.2 |
| Braves | 1.1 | LF | 1.0 |
| Yankees | 1.8 | 1B/DH | 1.5 |
| Astros | 1.4 | 1B | 1.2 |
| Rangers | 1.5 | DH | 1.4 |
| Phillies | 0.5 | RF | 1.8 |
| Orioles | 1.5 | 1B | 0.8 |
| Twins | 1.6 | LF | 1.4 |
| Blue Jays | 1.3 | 3B | 1.4 |
| Mariners | 1.0 | RF | 1.6 |
| Cardinals | 2.1 | RF | 1.5 |
| Rays | 1.3 | DH | 1.1 |
| Diamondbacks | 1.9 | 3B | 1.1 |
| Mets | 0.5 | LF | 1.0 |
| Cubs | 1.6 | DH | 1.3 |
| Red Sox | 1.5 | C | 1.5 |
The worst hitters are better, in aggregate, than the fifth starters. And that’s the ninth-best hitter on the team, not the fifth-best. Here’s each of those teams’ fourth starters, the lowest slot that would appear in a postseason rotation, as compared to the position with the fourth-highest projected WAR:
| Team | 4th Hitter WAR | Position | 4th Starter WAR |
|---|---|---|---|
| Dodgers | 3.9 | DH | 2.6 |
| Braves | 4.0 | CF | 2.2 |
| Yankees | 2.9 | 3B | 2.0 |
| Astros | 4.5 | LF/RF | 1.9 |
| Rangers | 2.8 | RF | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 2.6 | DH | 2.7 |
| Orioles | 2.9 | SS | 1.6 |
| Twins | 2.9 | 2B | 1.7 |
| Blue Jays | 2.7 | RF | 1.8 |
| Mariners | 2.4 | 3B | 2.3 |
| Cardinals | 2.9 | 2B | 1.8 |
| Rays | 2.9 | LF/1B | 1.8 |
| Diamondbacks | 3.2 | RF | 2.1 |
| Mets | 2.8 | C | 1.2 |
| Cubs | 2.6 | LF | 1.7 |
| Red Sox | 2.4 | 1B/DH | 1.8 |
Here, the fourth-best position players project to add a lot more value than the fourth-best pitchers. That’s just the way baseball works these days. Pitcher workloads are limited, and there are a lot of mid-level guys soaking up innings that used to go to the very best. If you look at the second table, 10 of the 16 teams are sporting fourth starters with WAR projections below 2.0, and that’s using our Depth Charts playing time, which is quite generous overall.
In other words, Cease will likely fetch more in trade than you’d “expect” given how good he’s been because his position is scarce. If you think he’s a 3-WAR guy, that’s the equivalent of the 25th-best pitcher in baseball. A 3-WAR hitter? That’s Triston Casas or Arraez, 58th and 59th in projected WAR respectively, with 3.0 each. Arraez even has two years of team control remaining, just like Cease. But teams would give up more for Cease, hands down. That scarcity really matters. You just can’t get guys like Cease. You can’t get guys like Arraez, either, to be fair, but you can generally do a better job of replicating their performance.
Sure, you can put more position players on the field than pitchers, but that doesn’t really capture the way baseball works, particularly for teams with playoff hopes. Starters pitch a much higher percentage of innings in the postseason and not having enough is a disaster, whereas you can handle one weak position in your lineup more easily. Elite pitching is just scarcer, and thus more valuable in a world with multiple teams vying for the same pool of arms.
Teams don’t have to like it. In fact, they pretty clearly don’t like it – half of the reporting around Cease this offseason has been teams anonymously noting that the White Sox are asking for too much. If you take a strict, surplus value-maximization view of the world, those teams might be right. In the real world, however, the White Sox have something that everyone else wants, and even if everyone’s crying about it now, I think that some team is going to give them what they’re asking for by the time the season starts.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
Someone asked yesterday if the value of pitching prospects is actually higher than that of position player prospects. Pitching prospects produce less WAR because of injuries, but they also are scarce for the same reason.
I would say the answer to this is yes. There is no world where Connor Phillips (who walks everyone), Rhett Lowder (who hasn’t even pitched in the minors yet), or Edwin Arroyo (who had a roughly league-average line in high-A this year, although he was only 19) should be a dealbreaker for a guy who was a 4-win pitcher in both 2021 and 2022. The Reds should have already said yes to that. But it makes sense if pitching is so scarce that teams are asking for prospects in return, and if teams are so desperate to hang on to their pitching they don’t want to trade them either.
I mentioned this in another comment (with source, waiting on approval/moderation), but the issue is that the package asked for from the Reds was actually Phillips, Petty, Lowder, Arroyo, and Jorge.
That is an absurd request, and every piece of information that’s come out since has been that the White Sox haven’t budged on their asking price. I’d be extremely hesitant on the package of Lowder, Phillips, and Arroyo but understanding (even if personally I wouldn’t do it), but adding in Petty (who is back up to 99 mph this offseason) and Jorge (who has been one of the best hitters at every level he’s been at & has CF experience now) makes it an absolute dealbreaker.
I don’t blame the Reds and other teams for rejecting the White Sox with that kind of demand.
As I said yesterday, I think this is true on the lower end, so for the majority of players, but not on the high end. There are not really every FV65-70 pitching prospects, and even 60s are rare, and teams would take equivalent position players over them every time because those are the guys who we see in the 2nd chart (the 4th best hitter on the team, or better). Their impact is enormous.
But in the middle and the bottom, teams not only are already getting less per 5th starter than per last-guy-in-the-lineup, they also need like 4x as many of those guys between rotation and bullpen and injury. A contending team only wants a couple of these guys who are in the 1.8-2.2 win range to round out its bench and the back of its lineup. It would take 2 whole bullpens full of them if it could, because they expect to use so many pitchers in a given season. Just having 8 for a bullpen plus a 5th starter isn’t enough – they want like 15-20.
(I appreciate this is repeating what I said in the other thread, but since you raised it here it was worth repeating for the people who hadn’t read that thread)
We are in a situation right now where the position player pool is sufficient for expansion, but the pitcher pool is not because of how many pitchers each team uses in a year. We still don’t have enough decent pitchers even for the teams we’ve got. I hope they do not expand any time soon, because it will be a repeat of the double expansion in the 1990s: it’ll introduce a huge number of wholly unqualified pitchers to MLB, and offensive levels will skyrocket back to PED-era numbers. This was the main cause of the offensive explosion of the 1990s to begin with, and imagine how much the league average pitching performance would drop if the *next* 60 pitchers who aren’t good enough to make the league right now got to pitch, too. You’d be back at 5.5 r/g territory.
sounds fun!
Dylan Cease was not actually a 4 win pitcher in 2021, just as he clearly wasn’t a 3.7 win pitcher in 2023. fWAR consistently overrates starters with one dominant pitch who get a lot of strikeouts, when their xERA and SIERA are almost always significantly worse than their FIP.
In reality, Cease is a ~2.5 win guy thanks to his durability, but his age and declining fastball velocity, plus having no above average offering to complement his slider, makes me pray that the Orioles hold firm and don’t give anything of substantial value for him.
…he’s put up 11.8 rWAR and 10.8 RA9-WAR over the last 3 seasons.
Maybe try again?
6.4 of which came from a 2022 performance that he will never come close to ever again, as his slider command and movement both regressed heavily. Cease was worth 3.0 in 2021 and 2.4 in 2023. Assuming that he stays healthy, he will be a 2-2.5 bWAR pitcher in each of the next two seasons.
This whole thing is silly though because the White Sox need talent anywhere they can get it, and the Reds and Orioles have way too many position players that are all ready now, and those position players are all perfectly positioned for 2024 / 2025.
Let’s see…the Orioles have Cedric Mullins holding down center field and Gunnar Henderson holding down either shortstop or third base. Jackson Holliday isn’t going anywhere, but he’ll hold down another infield spot. That leaves Jordan Westburg, Heston Kjerstad, Coby Mayo, Colton Cowser, Connor Norby, and Joey Ortiz. Those guys are all ready now. They could free up a spot by trading Hays and/or Santander, I guess, but even so they cannot play all of those guys because that’s nine guys for five or six positions. And that’s before we even get to the guys who potentially will be ready probably in 2025 like Basallo (blocked by Adley), Fabian, Bradfield, and Max Wagner.
The Reds aren’t quite as extreme. They have a guy who probably should be starting at shortstop (McLain) but got bumped to second base so they could see what ELDC can do. They just signed Candelario to play…somewhere. That leaves Steer, India, and Encarnacion-Strand to handle 1B / DH, Marte to play 3B or a corner outfield slot. That’s a full group right there, which leaves Arroyo with no home since they’ve decided that ELDC should play short and McLain should play 2B, and that’s before we see if Cam Collier can turn things around (he’s only going to be 19).
One of these deals should come together. The only reason for the Reds and Orioles not to do it is if you think Cease isn’t going to regain the form of a 4-win pitcher. There’s no reason for the White Sox not to do it. It should happen.
Yeah. I get that BAL isn’t being super active in free agency for ownership-related reasons. Fine. But Cease is cost controlled at an entirely reasonable rate, and very likely to out produce his contract. If the Os are looking at their balance sheet, or trying to win while avoiding too many liabilities in a potential sale, or anything like that, moving from a surplus of prospects to acquire Dylan Cease is exactly the sort of thing that they should be doing.
There’s a philosophy in the Orioles organization that if you trade prospects for win-now players, you tend to lose the deal over the long-run. Since the Orioles ownership is keeping costs way down and then probably selling after the elder Angelos dies (and who knows what the next ownership group will bring) they probably think they’re being smart, trying to keep that window open until they know they can make moves.
The only problem is that their rebuild worked so well that they have to cash out some of their chips now. Otherwise they’re going to get moved down the defensive spectrum or hang out in AAA. And if they’re trying to drag out their window, the only veteran who makes sense to move is Hays, who is fine but they need to make room for some new outfielders. They have to trade some of these guys.
I’m all for rebuilds, but if you always prioritize winning later over winning now then you will never win now. There’s a time when you go for it and use your assets in whatever way you can, now.
The orioles built a culture around losing and being okay with losing. No wonder they got swept last post season.
Definitely keep Santander over Hays. One has big power the other has average power (Hays). For me the Orioles should trade for Cease but the Reds are different. The Orioles badly need a starter. 2 excellent starters in Grayson & Bradish but John Means and friends just won’t cut it. Cinncy on the other hand has several really good arms that suffer from the ball park. Hunter Greene,Lodolo, Abbott, and Ashcraft are all promising. Yes the Reds have too many players but the need for Cease is much less than Baltimore. I’m a Yankee fan and want no part of Dylan Cease due to the ridiculous ask. Would he help ? Obviously yes. But at that cost ?? Just sign Snell.
Cease is exactly the kind of pitcher the Orioles should avoid. He’s 28, which is in the decline phase according to pitcher aging curves. He experienced significantly reduced fastball velocity in 2023, something that almost never bounces back, and which made his fastball a below average offering last season. And Chicago’s inexperienced GM wants a fortune for him.
I would rather pay more for a better, younger, and cheaper starter from the Marlins or Mariners.
There are other reasons, some of them very obvious. For example, the ownership groups of BAL and CHW (and arguably CIN), none of which have been particularly committed to winning or consistent competitiveness or made one good deal in the last decade or two. Ben makes the same assumption–that each team is trying its hardest to win–but why? Based on what data?
It’d be shocking if BAL/CHW made a trade to improve themselves *because* that’s the most rational thing for a team to do if it wants to win and neither of these ownerships prioritize winning over spending as little money as possible.
“The only reason for the Reds and Orioles not to do it is if you think Cease isn’t going to regain the form of a 4-win pitcher.”
I think there’s likely a version of this going on, in that these teams are hesitant to trade valuable chips for a guy who has real risk of not being that #2 starter they’re looking for. Would we be surprised if Cease turns into a bit of a pumpkin and isn’t a guy you trust come playoff time? I wouldn’t.
So if I’m in the Orioles shoes, I’d wait, continue to explore other trade options, and figure I’ll see what the trade deadline might cough up. The Reds are in a bit of a different situation in that their guys are way further off and they probably need the help *now* more, but it also sounds like from other comments the White Sox wouldn’t take what’s discussed in this article.
I’d rather pay for a year of Corbin Burnes than two of Cease for this reason. (Not clear how available Burnes is.) Could one of Cleveland’s young starters go for bats? Seattle’s? Would Miami deal one of their guys? In basically all of those scenarios I’d choose door B, because I don’t think Cease is any sort of sure thing.
The easiest option is for Baltimore to sign a guy. Reds too, though that park is a harder sell and they spent money already. No excuse for Baltimore’s ownership on that front.
It’s doubtful Cleveland would deal any of the three top young’uns (5-6 years of control) but Bieber and/or McKenzie can be had. Now affordably if you’re willing to gamble, less so if/when they show up healthy. Though less than what CWS is asking for Cease. If the O’s wanted Bieber *today* they might get him for Santander and one good prospect or some such package. Risk discount.
The M’s are even less likely to move good young pitching. They need them right where they are.
There’s a reason Cease is so expensive; he’s a good pitcher on the one team that can’t pretend to be a contender even in a weak division. The ChiSox are asking for a lot because they *need* a lot.
Cease is expensive because he had a dominant season in 2022. He wasn’t a good pitcher in 2023, and be probably won’t be one ever again due to the declining fastball velocity leaving him even more reliant than ever on his slider.
3.7 WAR is pretty good
He wasn’t actually worth anywhere near 3.7 WAR, but FIP consistently overrates starters with one dominant pitch because they produce high strikeout totals. By bWAR, Cease was only worth 2.4 wins above replacement in 2023. By RA9-WAR, he was even worse, at just 1.6.
I wouldn’t be surprised if teams trading for Cease were valuing him more like a #3 given the observed trend in teams devaluing bulk over quality that we see. A big part of what makes Cease a “#2” in value is starting every day reliably, and teams just don’t value that the way we’re used to thinking they do. In terms of per-inning outcomes, he’s pretty fringe #2, and I think there’s a disconnect in how acquiring teams and CWS value him for exactly that reason – the CWS not only need to maximize his value, they’re one of the least-foward thinking organizations and it’s quite reasonable that they really *do* think his durability is more valuable than the rest of the industry is going to credit it for at the moment.
Cease is 1 year removed from finishing 2nd in the AL Cy Young race. That’s why the Sox feel he’s worth what a top-20 pitcher is worth.
But Cease is not a top 20 pitcher. And the White Sox can hold him all they want as his value drops.
I don’t necessarily think that’s the issue. I think the issue is that his xERA went from 2.70 to about 4. That made him the #4 pitcher in xERA in 2022 and the #23 pitcher in xERA in 2023.
Basallo is not blocked by Adley.
how is cease not on BAL yet
Cease is really good, to the point where kvetching over a 50+45 deal seems insane to me.
He’s put up 12.6 fWAR and 11.8 rWAR over the last three years!
Nightengale (for whatever it’s worth) says the Sox want a package centered around Chase Hampton or Spencer Jones for Cease, which…honestly seems a bit light, to the point I wonder if they’d be trying to send Moncada back.
The Yankees are one of those teams–kind of like the Dodgers, among a lot of other analytically-minded teams–who decide which prospects they’re willing to trade first, and then see what established player they can get for them. Rather than the more traditional route of seeing who they can get first and figure out which prospects they’re willing to trade them. I think this is probably the “right” way to do it in the long-term but it can lead to some weird stuff like this for individual deals.
And all reporting based on other negotiations has been that they see both Jones and Hampton as untouchable.
How do you know this is how the Yankees approach the issue? I’m fascinated by this type of inside baseball stuff – wondering if I missed a book or something.
I noticed this for the first time with the Jose de Leon saga and the Dodgers. Teams probably did this before, and I am sure the Rays did, but that was the first time I remember seeing a team shop a minor league like that. And then once you see it, you can’t unsee it. The Brewers did this a lot when they were still in buyer mode, and the Yankees and Rays do it regularly to manage 40-man roster issues. I am confident other teams do at least some of this too but I can’t think of them now (as well as other teams I don’t know about).
It becomes really obvious in retrospect when you compare the ‘success rates’ of guys that those teams are willing to trade vs the ones they insist on keeping. Virtually everyone the Dodgers have ever made untouchable has been a league average or better MLB player, and the guys they’ve been willing to move when they’re near-ready for MLB have mostly not reached that level, with a few exceptions that you can see as being clearly need-driven (Like Josiah Gray in the Scherzer/Turner deal) where they had to move someone they liked because they just needed what they were getting too badly.
The list of ‘untouchable’ Dodger prospects over the last years has been something like
Seager
Bellinger
Buehler
Verdugo
Lux
Bobby Miller
Untouchable Los Angeles Dodger Prospect Boston Red Sox Left Fielder Alex Verdugo?
Sorry, I mean, Untouchable Los Angeles Dodger Prospect Boston Red Sox New York Yankee Left Fielder Alex Verdugo?
I mean yes they did treat Verdugo that way until he debuted and was a quality MLB player and then they traded him for Mookie freakin Betts
Verdugo did not materialize out of the ether in December before being traded for Betts, friend.
Verdugo was valuable because he was a high floor/OBP OFer at a time of need, but he wasn’t a Seager or even a Lux. Corner OFs who aren’t Juan Soto aren’t all that rare (Pages was already emerging before Verdugo was traded).
I am sure orgs have their internal sense of who they’re higher/lower on, but I would also think they’re constantly re-evaluating. The Dodger catching prospects are a great example of this.
The yanks just proved it: they decided Florial had to go first, then went for what he could fetch.
It is doubtful they went to Cleveland asking for Morris specifically to see what Cleveland would settle for.
I do think, unscientifically, that Hampton is EXACTLY the type of guy they should be willing to trade for a Cease, because they build a Hampton or two every year.
I also think that the approach you described is why Dave Dombrowski has just as many pennants as Friedman, over the last 15 years…and three more than Cashman.
Interesting on the Yankees because as a huge fan I don’t see why the Yankees would trade top prospects for Cease when they can just sign Snell and lose zero prospects. Snell is asking too much but that price should drop.
But Cease is not “really good” He is just good. By almost any ranking he is not a top 20 starter. As a matter of fact he is closer to 30-35 than 20. He is projected by almost any system to have an ERA over 4 and he walks too many. He is a darn good pitcher. But not anywhere near the top pitchers.
A) Those systems know that he’s playing in front of one of the worst defenses in baseball.
Both rWAR and fWAR have him comfortably in the Top 20 over the last three seasons.
B) “He’s not ‘really good’ because he’s just a Top 30-35 pitcher” is one of the more inane statements I’ve read on this site recently.
Over the last three years, the 30th best qualified position player is Matt Chapman.
The 35th was Cedric Mullins.
No one who wasn’t looking at Cease’s FanGraphs page would call him “really good” given his mediocre performance in 2023. fWAR consistently overrates starting pitchers with one dominant pitch who use it to generate a high number of strikeouts. bWAR, xERA, SIERA, and pretty much every other pitching metric agree that Cease was not “really good” outside of 2022.
If Red Sox management really cared about winning, they’d send a multitude of prospects to get an established, SP2 kind of guy like Cease. Although I would wince if Marcelo Mayer was involved, sending prospects for a pitcher they desperately need would be a lump most fans might be willing to take. Won’t have to, though, because they won’t do it anyway since the great HR-giving superstar Lucas Giolito is aboard now.
I remember there was an article near the end of the year here on FG, and it was something like “The Most Shocking Home Runs of the Last Month” or something like that. And Giolito had something like half of the gifs, wearing at least two and maybe three different uniforms.
Hey, it could be worse. At least he has a chance to be good.
I would like to think he couldn’t be much worse than he was last year. Maybe he’ll find some of that old ace abilities…
the Sox are a weird outlier amongst the teams with /relatively/ high WS odds in that their position player group lacks stars in the way most contending teams lack pitching. Giving up Mayer, Anthony, or Teel makes very little sense for 2 years of Cease when your third or fourth best position player is Vaughn Grissom (who I like, but who has practically no MLB track record, and is projected at just 2.1 fWAR by Steamer). I get the desire to bring on proven pitching – the article clearly illustrates why it makes sense to pay the price for it. But in the case of the Sox it’s putting the cart before the horse, unless you can get someone with more control than Cease. You need at least one of Yoshida/Story/O’Neill to (re)establish themselves as a force, plus big developmental jumps from at least one of Abreu/Grissom/Rafaela before you can really part with major position player prospect packages and feel comfortable about having a contender. Right now it’s a roster filled with slightly above league average players everywhere but the infield corners.
Teel in particular feels like one that could make a huge difference – neither of the Sox catchers can hit. He could be an immediate 2-3 WAR improvement on current Sox backstops as soon as 2025. Cease wouldn’t represent a comparable WAR difference over Houck, and that’s without considering that Teel alone probably doesn’t make a complete package. Pitching is only worth more than position players if you already have a complete position player group.
Wow, Steamer really hates Wong: 0.1 WAR in 286 PA! ZIPS is a little more optimistic, giving him 0.8 in 378 PA. I imagine both incorporate framing and credit it to the catcher. Over at Baseball Reference, which does not add framing to catcher WAR, Wong put up 2.2 WAR last year despite his 80 OPS+.
If you value Wong as FG does, there’s a really good argument that a catcher should be a top priority for Boston–even ahead of another starting pitcher.
I understand the need to keep the guys that one thinks will be amazing down the road, but as a selfish Sox fan who just wants a reason to go to the ballpark and see the team win, I’ll take the cart over the horse right now. Maybe Cease will stay on if the Sox offer a big enough contract for him (fat chance these days, I admit) once he’s in-house.
Honestly, since neither Teel, Anthony or Mayer can pitch, and the lot of SP/RP combo types are a little too abundant right now, getting Cease would put some Sox fans’ minds at ease every 5th day.
Yeah, Mayer+Parts for Cease would make some sense for both sides.
I guess I lump Cease in the same bucket as Montas and Rodon. Truly good pitchers seldom toss in a stinker as bad as Cease did in 2023. He isn’t worth the gamble and last year’s White Sox rotation is definitely not something I want to see on the bump in Fenway in 2024.
Not me!!!
Disagree. IMO the Red sox aren’t in the their win-now window. Trading a potential cornerstone at a position of long term need for 2 years of Cease (whose not signing an extension) feels a bit short-sighted.
It makes them a little more interesting but at the cost of long term wins. Their goal should be building a long term contender with W.S aspirations. As some of those younger guys blossom they can start to trade money/prospects for win now players to supplemennt that core, but that time doesn’t feel like now.
Let us just say that Dylan Cease isn’t Chris Sale. However if we knew in advance that the return for Cease would turn out to be next to nothing like the White Sox ended up with from the Sale trade then you make the trade but the future is difficult to see. Personally I would much rather take my chances on Marcelo Mayer, Wilyer Abreu, Kyle Teel, Cedanne Rafaela, Roman Anthony and Blaze Jordan..
I don’t think Ben’s premise–“the White Sox have something that everyone else wants”–is true (this assumes every team is trying to win with equal fervor, which is never the case), and moreover, while it only takes one, it’s hard to drive up demand if your asking price is too high and if there aren’t enough bidders (which is my amateur read on the situation).
Minus the Yankees (who dealt their prospects already), the AL East has multiple competitive teams with prospects that would benefit more from having Cease in the rotation in April rather than August, but the Red Sox and Orioles have ownerships committed to mediocrity and TB trading *for* Cease after dealing *away* Glasnow doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Seattle needs pitching, but this isn’t their MO. CLE has the dudes, but for a rental? Again, not their style.
In the NL, the Dodgers are signing Paxton and seem to be focused on Pages/Vargas for depth rather than dealing. *maybe* the Cubs do it, but why not sign Snell or Montgomery instead if you’re building for the longer term? The Braves, I suppose, but there’s no urgency there. In fact, it feels more likely strong teams will simply wait and see if Cease rebounds since why buy high right now if you don’t need him to make the playoffs and can mitigate risk/reduce the cost later? Sure, maybe the demand goes up, but it’s hard to imagine CHW getting more for him in July than he’ll get right now.
And then you’ve still got Snell and Montgomery out there who cost “only” money and would be controllable after the contract (who also don’t have employers). Wouldn’t shock me at all to see Cease a White Sock through July.
Not only does Snell only cost money, but he’s a very similar archetype of pitcher, who has just done that profile better than Cease.
When Cease loses it, he completely loses it. That can’t be trusted in the playoffs. As we’re seeing with the prolonged free agencies of Snell and Bellinger, there likely needs to be a volatility discount for guys like this.
Imma need a citation besides recency bias for Snell “doing that profile better than Cease,” haha.
Is it the 3 fewer fWAR that makes your prefer Snell, or the 2 fewer rWAR?
And no, Snell pitching 90 fewer innings over that span isn’t a point in his favor, haha.
There’s a *lot* of evidence that contending teams value per-IP performance over durability/IP totals at the moment, so I do not think that the 90 IP over multiple years is as big a hurdle as you suggest.
Agreed–especially if your emphasis is the postseason. If Snell gives you 2 starts of 5 IP / 1 ER per postseason series, are you gonna care that he only threw ~135 innings during the year?
He’s a villain in LA, and they obviously found other arms, but he would have also made a lot of sense in a Dodger postseason rotation for that reason, imo (though for his own happiness and my friends in Seattle, I hope he lands there)
I spoke about Snell somewhere else but the Dodgers clearly do not want Blake Snell at all and I agree with them – see my reply just below this one, in fact.
But all of this makes him a special case. In general, teams value exactly what Snell has done (great quality over less innings) substantially more than they value what Cease does (good quality over lots of innings).
…but there isn’t a significant gap in the performance, haha!
Let’s leave aside the innings totals:
79 ERA-/81 FIP- on a team worth -10 DEF from 2021-23.
83 ERA-/79 FIP- on a team worth -117 DEF from 2021-23.
Which guy do you pick?
I think I have said this elsewhere but teams’ unwillingness to commit to Bellinger and Snell makes tons of sense to me. I recall after Yamamoto signed, someone (Nightengale?) pointed out that the Dodgers had been linked to every available pitcher with the notable exception of Snell, in whom they appeared to have zero interest.
I think this makes sense, because I would be terrified to give a long contract to Blake Snell. Setting aside the questions of the sustainability of his approach in a vacuum, I would be absolutely terrified of his aging curve. Snell has defied convention by succeeding while walking a ton of dudes because his pitches are virtually impossible to make contact with. The minute that his stuff declines even a little bit, and they are not quite so hard to make contact with – something that is inevitable, because stuff declines with age – those walks are going to be an enormous problem. Regardless of whether a pitcher who has Blake Snell’s stuff can sustainably succeed the way he pitches, a Blake Snell who ages almost certainly will not, and then he will need to learn to pitch in an entirely different way than he does right now.
If I were a contending team, I do not know that I would give him HALF of what he reportedly wants. I have zero confidence that he’ll be even a league average pitcher 3 years from now.
I feel like Snell is a player where you’re going to get 0 to 3 or maybe 4 years of high end performance, and then when it slips it will fall off a cliff to 4.50-4.75 type ERA levels. When he loses just a little break or velocity, the bottom is gonna fall out like a wet paper bag with a bowling ball in it.
He’s basically the perfect Rockies free agent.
I remember thinking that he was going to get about $150M but also thinking that was probably $30M-$40M too high. The Yankees offered him that deal almost exactly and he turned it down. If we’re talking about a $200M deal for Snell, I would be super worried.
I agree with the comment, but I wouldn’t really say Seattle needs pitching. 1-5 is all pretty solid, and upside with Miller/Woo and possibly K upside with Kirby.
Pitching isn’t the M’s top priority.
Or the second.
Everyone always needs pitching. I don’t care how good you look 1-5, people are gonna get hurt and miss time.
Sure.
But, priorities.
So far, the M’s top priorities have been:
1- Budget
2- infielders
3-DH
4- OF
5- Bullpen
Agreed, Mariners are probably the last team in the MLB looking for starting pitching. They got their DH, though. Mariners rotation stacks up to anyone in the MLB imo. Projected for 7th best rotation right now, and I would take them easily over 2 teams ahead (somehow the Reds are ahead, huh?). But yea, it is certainly one thing they aren’t looking for currently, even though they are in on Snell still.
I would rank Seattle # 1 in starting pitching. Dodgers have injury concerns with Buehler & Glasnow and Paxton is a roll of the dice. Minnesota has a real good rotation. Imagine having Bryan Woo as your 5th starter. Pretty hard to beat that.
I didn’t want to say that, but I don’t disagree they are right there.
That’s fine if they want to hold onto him until the deadline, but if you kind of have to deal him then. You’re risking injury by holding onto him, you’re risking ineffectiveness, and then most importantly if they decide to deal him a year away, the team getting him is only 1 postseason instead of 2 (obvious statement is obvious). So while they may have a high asking price, you kinda need to make the deal now rather than at the deadline IMO. The Orioles should be all over Cease, but for **REASONS** they just aren’t.
I agree the White Sox should deal him ASAP; I don’t think there’s the same urgency for most buyers, though (either because he’s not immediately necessary and/or because some owners dgaf, like BAL)
There’s a gap between his recent performance and the price the White Sox want. A half season of dominance almost assuredly increases his price more than the market forces of fewer bidders reduces it IMO – so I’m not sold they should deal him ASAP.
He’s been rock solid health wise, I think they are comfortable with that risk. But a half season of dominance and he becomes a playoff anchor; a half season of mediocrity and he looks like a #3/4.
It’s a gamble either way.
The Sox held on to Quintana until July which worked out well for them when they acquired Cease and Jimenez.
Also, since Cease has a history of durability, holding on to him till July should be less of a concern regarding injury.
As to ineffectiveness, the opposite also comes into play if Cease performs really well. Getz may then announce that the price of poker just went up.
CWS needs a lot in return to accelerate the rebuild.
If they don’t get it, trading him might leave them worse off, now and later.
Wanting to win as much as possible isn’t just for contenders; they need to show *something* to the fans. If not something to dream on, thenat least a star or two.
Be real. The White Sox can’t be worse right now. They are horrible with or without Cease. They’d be horrible if they had Ohtani.
They really should do a complete rebuild and trade Robert, too.
Sure they could.
You just said how: trade Robert…
…and not get enough back from Cease.
Why don’t the Orioles just wait until the deadline to trade for him? Yes, they would assume the risk that someone meets the White Sox exorbitant current asking price. But the difference between Cease and someone like Cole Irvin taking starts for the 1st half;might cost them 1 or 2 wins. Where then they don’t take on the risk that Cease blows his arm out. And in theory the asking price will come down. It also saves them 4-5 million bucks by having the Sox pay him for the 1st half of the season. The true need is to have him as a playoff starter and I don’t see having Cease for half a season more being the difference maker in them making the playoffs or not.
Contenders don’t get a discount for 1.5 Years relative to 2 Years, because of the increased certainty that they’ll be paying for at least one playoff run of the player in question.
If the White Sox are asking for the moon right now and no one is willing to pull the trigger now then interested teams might as well wait until the deadline. If you’re going to pay the same price in prospects either way it doesn’t matter that much if you get him now or later. You can middle through the regular season just fine with a bunch of 2-win starters, it’s the playoffs where the high end pitching becomes important.
Is a 50 and a 45+ really too much for a really good pitcher who you have cheap for the next two years? If so, prospecting may have (again) gone a bit too far.
I think we’re way overvaluing 50s these days, especially the older ones (the 23 or 24 year old guys), of whom there are plenty on the list each year. Let’s not forget that these guys have low hit rates, and their (theoretical) upside is ML regular, not star. That present value is not through roof.
But that’s the thing: that’s just not how FV works. From the primer:
This why looking at just the FV can be a little too reductive. The Yankees, for example, are an org that is big (on the position player side) on risky, high-ceiling, high-variance dudes.
Players like Dominguez or Jones would be in higher FV tiers if not for their high bust risk. The Yankees feel like they can identify the guys who are worth taking the risk on.
EDIT: That’s not to say it’s an ideal approach or even to endorse it, but that’s clearly the way they’ve operated during the majority of the Cashman tenure.
Younger guys who are 50s are a different class, and definitely have more value. I specifically mentioned the older guys – there are a lot of 50s put on 23/24/25 year olds these days seemingly purely because of their proximity, and the bust rate on them seems to be really high. Personally, when I see a team get a 24 year old back who is rated a 50, internally I really consider them more like a 40. If they were actually that good they’d be in the majors already.
Not that i want to add to Eric’s plate, but one thing I enjoy about BP prospect coverage is that every player gets 2 ratings: Likely outcome and upside outcome. It really helps illustrate when you see two 50s next to each other and one is “OFP 70, likely 50” and the other is “OFP 55, likely 50”.
Do you know if BP (or an independent party) has done a retrospective analysis to see how accurate the upside ratings end up?
In general, I think upside is something we (as in the baseball analytics community as a whole) struggle to evaluate. It’s easy to see big raw tools and think big upside, but do those guys actually become stars more often than the guys who have lesser tools who might be more skilled at converting those tools into production?
I like that a lot. It’s superior to FG’s “Risk” column on The Board, which is helpful, but still doesn’t give us a sense of upper or lower bounds.
Part of the problem is that we’re trying to assign a single number to a prospect with very dynamic inputs, which leads to goofy rankings and outcomes.
For example, when the A’s traded Frankie Montas to the Yankees in 2022, the headliner was Ken Waldichuk, who was 24 years old and rated a 50, presumably because he was close to the majors and had average-ish stuff. At the same time, the Yankees had a 19-year-old prospect named Jasson Dominguez in the system who was also rated a 50. Obviously these two guys were extremely differently regarded as prospects, with a massive gap in trade value. Their ratings should reflect that.
What it all comes down to is that the most important things to figure out for hitting prospects are also the most difficult/volatile/inscrutable, because its hitting: and namely whether the player can continue to adapt and learn and keep up with each level of pitching as they encounter it. Until they actually do that, there’s no way to know they will – there are indicators, but they are not super reliable.
Its worth noting BP only does a top 10 prospects; Eric does every viable major leaguer in an org (upwards of 60 sometimes). We’re talking about really different workloads (BP also has a whole fucking team, Eric has Tess).
The difference between the guy who is almost maxed out in his projection and the guy who isnt are the other tools – the power, the athleticism, the defense, the baserunning, etc. Those things simply don’t matter if the guy can’t hit MLB pitching to a certain level, but they matter a lot once a guy does, and determine the difference between a FV50 dude and Fernando Tatis Jr.
Similarly, people rag too much on teams that trade big toolsy prospects who DO work out. Tatis, Oneil Cruz, etc. *there’s no guarantees*. That Tatis worked out in the Padres org doesn’t mean he would have in the White Sox org. That Cruz worked out for the Pirates doesn’t mean he would have for the Dodgers; it’s not just a question of quality of PD staff (which obviously helps). It involves innumerable factors outside everyone’s control.
Some lottery tickets are more likely to hit than others, but in the end they’re all lottery tickets of some degree. Even the ‘sure thing’ types are just a relative difference in confidence. Guys like Jackson Holladay happen and then do get stuck unable to figure something out at the MLB level, too – its not a talent thing. Unlike other major sports in the US, baseball requires continual skill development at each stage of advancement before reaching the majors. There is no substitute, and no way that superior athleticism can simply carry someone to relevance before they have the developed skills, the way that athleticism can enable guys to contribute in the NFL or NBA before they’re fully developed.
This is how I see it. The Orioles have to decide if Heston Kjerstad is going to be better than Colton Cowser or Cody Mayo. Joey Ortiz hit .321 in AAA and Connor Norby has improved at every level. The only one of their exciting prospects who appears to not have future in Baltimore is Samual Bassallo who is blocked, but what does he get in return? Everyone here can spew a litany of touted prospects who have come up woefully short. Ernie Broglio for Lou Brock any one or maybe a washed up Jim Fregosi for Nolan Ryan or, my favorite, Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb. GM’s careers hang on these decisions and nobody wants these on their resume. 101 win teams do not have to take those risks until the paint is a little drier on these kids.
Sometimes the 50 grade and lower guys do turn out to be something more. The below is possibly another reason Elias is reluctant to trade. The Os recent run of prospects outperforming feels really unsustainable to me, but maybe Elias thinks he has the magic touch,
Fangraphs Mid-season 2021 grades for the Orioles:
Now Major Leaguers:
Gunnar Henderson 50
Kyle Bradish 45
Jordan Westburg 45
Felix Bautista 35+
Now top 50 overall prospects according to BA:
Cowser 50
Kjerstad 50
Mayo 40+
Basallo (not ranked at all until pre-season 2023 where he was 40+)
But if he has the magic touch, shouldn’t it be “I can always pick/make more of these guys”, instead of “I picked these guys and they’re gonna be good so I refuse to trade them”? And if so, why are they not playing right now?
The magic touch depends on the draft.
If you regularly draft near the end of the round, you *have* to take bigger risks than in the early rounds because the lower risk guys go first.
The O’s got most of their hoard because they got good picks. Then the “magic touch” kicked in. It’s easier to find an Adley or a Holiday when you’re on the top end of the draft.
That’s true for Adley, but the top of the 2022 draft was not so clear cut.
Almost no one had the Os taking Holliday or had him ranked at the #1 talent. Druw Jones was considered the clear #1 talent by most writers, with Holliday, Termarr Johnson, Elijah Green, Jacob Berry, Kevin Parada, and Brooks Lee in the next tier. Its too early on all of those guys, but none of those guys have the stock Holliday has today
I know that ownership has a lot to do with the O’s inactivity, but I also have been wondering whether Elias & co have simply refused to recalibrate their expectations of what pitching is worth now. There’s no way that you can look at the composition of their system and their draft philosophy and not come away with the conviction that the plan was always to develop hitting and trade for/buy pitching when the window was open, but now that the moment is here they seem to be unable to stomach the price. Are they really going to start the season with Ortiz, Cowser, Kjerstad, and Norby in AAA again? If they weren’t planning to trade some of them why bother tendering contracts to guys like Mateo and Urias? Why continue to claim guys like Sam Hilliard and trade for Tyler Nevin (also again)? It’s bizarre.
Especially after last year’s playoff belly-flop.
This exactly what I have been thinking. The plan was always to get pitching later because hitters bust. So you want to take the sure thing if you’re rebuilding. But everyone is looking for pitching, and there’s just no way to acquire enough through trades or free agency unless you have a ton of money. That wasn’t necessarily true back when the Astros were trading for Gerrit Cole.
That was the Cubs did pre-2016.
But they found enough pitching via trade and FA.
This year, so far, it’s not as easy. Not with the Dodgers and Cards grabbing every half-decent body inna oean year to start withm
I don’t disagree with the premise of this article; Cease is definitely worth a 50 and a 45+ FV package.
The issue is that that’s been widely reported to be far less than what the White Sox have been asking for; the actual package that was asked from the Reds was Lowder, Phillips, Petty, Arroyo, and Jorge as seen here: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/12/details-on-dylan-cease-trade-talks-between-white-sox-reds.html?utm_source=twitter.
Technically, the exact fifth prospect wasn’t mentioned, but enough hints were dropped that some Reds fans sleuthed it out on Twitter (and you can realistically replace Jorge with any 40+ – 45 level FV prospect).
So… with that said, I think the onus isn’t so much on the teams interested in Cease to be willing to move prospects, but that the White Sox seem to be asking for far more than seems reasonable.
I don’t know how this article got written, edited, and published with this not being part of it. Chicago asking for 5 prospects is very different than Chicago asking for 3, and the entire ‘White Sox ask for more than the Reds want’ conversadion began with that 5 prospect ask. I don’t know where the 3 prospect ask in the article even came from, but it sure seems like an easy way to say ‘lol look how dumb the Reds are’ instead of taking an honest, objective look at this.
3 months of Giolito returned a 50 in Quero and a 40 reliever. 2 years of Cease should return more like Marte (55) and Arroyo (50) that 1.5 years of Castillo returned. I agree with Cool Lester Smooth that asking for Jones and Hampton from NYY is appropriate. Else, they can assume the injury risk while enjoying having Cease for the next year and a half and then trade him for almost what teams would like to pay today.
giolito deal isn’t a reasonable comp. angels were in a unique situation, and that deal was widely seen as a coup for CHW even before giolito really imploded
Very interesting article.
Non-linearity of $/WAR and #1-2 starting pitchers having outsize importance during the postseason have been discussed from time to time.
But here Ben seems to suggest due to the supply of starting pitchers dwindling (14% decrease in SP innings the past 10 years without changes in ERA-, FIP-), the “price” of starting pitchers increased relative to other positions.
This makes a lot of sense to me.
There is no fundamental reason why the price of 3 WAR hitter and 3 WAR starting pitcher would be similar just as there is no fundamental reason why the price of the 30th most valuable hitter and the 30th most valuable pitcher would be similar.
$/WAR framework can be misleading, but given that it won’t be going away soon, perhaps we need three different $/WAR figures, for position players, starting pitchers, and relievers.
Or, just write a new WAR formula that takes position scarcity into account?
Yeah but the thing is that that scarcity doesn’t matter. That there’s not enough good or even average pitchers to go around doesn’t necessarily change what the performance of the freely available, you-can-get-it-for-a-song, doesn’t really belong in MLB but can fake it for a week guys pitch like. The various relievers and 5th starters may be just a LITTLE better than those guys but valued a lot more than that because there’s a dearth of them, while it’s still true that they’re each individually pretty marginal upgrades.
You have to remember that MLB talent is the tail of a bellcurve. That there’s not enough guys in the section of the curve as you want there to be doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re actually going further back to fill the spots – there’s already more of those replacement level pitchers than can occupy the MLB spots, the thing is just that *their teams don’t want to have to use them*. Because it is the narrow tail of a 3+ standard deviation from the mean (of human ability to pitch) distribution curve, it’s exponential – when you move back just a bit, you go from not-enough to way-more-than-we-need.
The replacement level doesn’t actually change.
My problem with trading for Cease is he “only” has 2 years of control and is a Boras guy (low chance of extension, especially for reasonable money)
It creates an awkward spot between him being “too valuable” to go for a reasonable offer, but also the lack of long term control makes it really, really difficult to offer a huge package, knowing he wont be there long term.
So I think this really limits his market to slam dunk win now teams, that have the prospect capitol, a desperate need for pitching, and perhaps a good pitching infrastructure to feel comfortable theyd get “good” Cease. Its hard for a team like the Reds to make a move like this knowing Cease will walk in 2 years and they will cut their window short
No one trades good SP with long-term, below-market control.
Is 2 years really “long term”?
I would say not, and I think that’s what makes more fringier contenders like the Reds or Red sox, or lower payroll teams like the Rays as longshots. Not enough control to gut your system for, if you are not ready to really capitalize on the next 2 seasons.
Two years is a longish length of time left for guys like Cease to have left. Players of his quality often get moved at the trade deadline when they have ~1.5 years remaining, because moving him in the preseason is an indication that you’re giving up on the next two years. Which no one wants to say up front to their fans unless they’re truly desperate/out of it/don’t care.
Fair, but those 2 years have to line up w your window. How many teams are positioned to trade a ton of long term value for the next 2 years? Then how many of those teams have the prospects and the desire to make it work?
Its a small number. That number will increase at the deadline when 1) Cease has less value and wouldn’t cost as much and 2) teams are more sure they are contenders in 2024
Two years is a significant percentage of any MLB player’s prime years. When that player has demonstrated that he’s well above average over the previous three years, and you’re getting two prime years, that’s a lot of value.
And the “Cease was bad in 2023” talk completely dismisses the fact that, despite an inflated ERA, he was still worth 3.7 fWAR last year. All 30 MLB teams would take that pitcher.
As a die-hard O’s fan, I’d love to see Cease pitching in Baltimore for the next two years. But, as with anything else in life, the price has to be reasonable. What exactly “reasonable” means in this case remains to be determined. However, I think Elias & Co. have earned the benefit of the doubt in assessing that, given what they’ve accomplished to date.
Quick take – I think once Montgomery gets his 9-figure contract, the Reds (or maybe the O’s) blink and give the White Sox what they want for Cease.
Or go for Bieber? Or somebody else?
Cease isn’t the entire market.
He may or not be the best option out there but there are other options,up to and including three way deals.
I don’t think so. Not if that 5-player package is the ask. The teams that are in on Cease are typically teams who don’t want to pay Montgomery or Snell big chunks of money.
I think the Orioles are going to sign Lorenzen and pray that Kremer, Rodriguez, and Means stay in one piece and are good. I would be pretty freaked out by that plan but I think it’s more likely than them caving. Same with the Reds.
The Reds in particular have as many as 9 “viable” (for a certain value of viable) starting pitching options after signing Montas (which honestly was the signifier that they were completely out on Cease, in my opinion).
Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft, Montas, Martinez, Abbott, Williamson, Richardson, Phillips. All of those guys have questions, but the Reds FO seemed to take the attitude of “if we have enough upside dart throws, at least 4-5 will hit”, which honestly doesn’t seem like an altogether terrible plan for 2024. It also gives them the depth to be able to afford to sift guys out of the rotation and into the pen that aren’t cutting it as starters.
I mean thats just kind of how everyone builds pitching staffs these days, because even of guys are good they are gonna get hurt.
Would be a bit weird to see the Cubs go after him, after trading him in the past, but I would rather see them go after the Naylor brothers if they are going to do a haul.
Cubs have a perfect need for both brothers and could bow out of the Bellinger sweepstakes (or sign him too) if they did a big trade for both.
What would it cost?
Hoerner and Shaw.
I would think the young depth would do the trick if they wanted to go all in without giving up Hoerner, but not sure if Jed would operate that way.
It takes two to tango and the ALC is weak.
That just shows you like mom best:-) The O’s over the other (11-ringed) Birds. Sell out:-) Keep rocking, best author
This is written with such a bizarre undervaluation of Cease.
Sean Murphy fWAR, 2021-2023: 12.5
Dylan Cease fWAR, 2021-2023: 12.6
It makes sense if you take the immediate season prior– 5.0 fWAR vs 3.7– sure! But I’d really think we would not be that simplistic here on FG. If you’d like to argue about the nuanced value of WAR re catchers and their inherent playing time restrictions: sure, go ahead. But it’s simply bizarre to make a claim of much better here.
Same thing for saying you’d pay Glasnow more than Cease. Since his breakout 2018, excluding 2020, Glasnow has averaged 77.4 innings per year. It’s a good sign that his career high IP (120.0) was last year, but again: we don’t use just the most recent year when evaluating a player! As a side note, Glasnow is also 2.5 years older. Saying you want to pay age-32+ Glasnow more than age-29+ Cease really doesn’t track for me.
The OP points out that the value of position player excellence is more impactful than pitching excellence. Position players impact up to 162 games a year vs 30(?) games for maybe 6 innings at a time. They may be prime innings but the rest of the game matters. Its part of the debate about closers in the HOF.
Pitcher WAR =/= Position WAR on the playing field, not really.
You need both but they are not interchangeable.
So yes, Murphy’s 12.5 catcher WAR are way more valuable than Cease.’s 12.6 WAR.
That’s not remotely what Ben is saying here, and I’m baffled as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
This might be one of the more drastic misunderstandings of WAR I have seen on this site in quite a while. I’m not even sure where to begin. If you’re coming from the standpoint of position players are worth more than pitchers because 162 games > 30 games, it’s probably a good idea to go back to the basics and read about how WAR is developed and what the numbers mean. I’m honestly not trying to be condescending, so I’m sorry if it’s coming off like that, just trying to help
Even if this kind of analysis were true, given the scarcity of quality pitching these days I’d say that 12 WAR worth of pitching is worth more than 12 WAR worth of hitting/fielding from a fungibility/replaceability perspective.
I.e. if a team could guarantee itself 12 WAR of pitching over three years or 12 WAR of hitting they’d take the pitcher in a heartbeat. The position player is so much more replaceable.
I thought this was a really good article overviewing scarcity. Thanks!
Is this an argument that pitcher and hitter WAR are currently incompatible and don’t serve as a good 1-1 comparison?
If so co-sign
Yup.
The way teams use pitchers and view them has changed over the years and team behavior shows it.
As a Braves fan, I’m content that my favored team elected not to entertain Getz demands for two years of Cease. Some one likely will eventually meet the White Sox demands. I’m just glad that team won’t be the Braves.
Pirates? Please?
Comparing Cease to Eugenio Suarez made absolutely no sense lol