The Best Team Defenses Thus Far

Dan Hamilton-USA TODAY Sports

The Guardians rate as one of baseball’s bigger surprises. After finishing 76-86 last year — their worst record since 2012 — they’ve rebounded to go 57-33 thus far, and entered Wednesday with the AL’s best record. Their offense is much more potent than it was last year, and despite losing ace Shane Bieber for the season due to Tommy John surgery, they rank second in the league in run prevention at 3.87 runs per game.

While Cleveland’s staff owns the AL’s second-highest strikeout rate (24.2%), a good amount of credit for the team’s run prevention belongs to its defense. By my evaluation of a handful of the major defensive metrics — Defensive Runs Saved, Ultimate Zone Rating, Statcast’s Fielding Run Value (FRV), and our catcher framing metric (hereafter abbreviated as FRM, as it is on our stat pages) — the Guardians rate as the majors’ second-best defensive team thus far this season. The Yankees, who spent much of the first half atop the AL East before a 5-16 slide knocked them into second place, are the only team ahead of them.

On an individual level, even a full season of data isn’t enough to get the clearest picture of a player’s defense, and it’s not at all surprising that a 600-inning sample produces divergent values across the major metrics. After all, they’re based on differing methodologies that produce varying spreads in runs from top to bottom, spreads that owe something to what they don’t measure, as well as how much regression is built into their systems. Pitchers don’t have UZRs or FRVs, catchers don’t have UZRs, and DRS tends to produce the most extreme ratings. Still, within this aggregation I do think we get enough signal at this point in the season to make it worth checking in; I don’t proclaim this to be a bulletproof methodology so much as a good point of entry into a broad topic.

Zooming in on the Guardians, they have three players who are at least two runs above average in DRS, UZR, and FRV, namely left fielder Steven Kwan, shortstop Brayan Rocchio, and right fielder Ramón Laureano (who’s now a Brave). As if it weren’t enough that Kwan is in the midst of an offensive breakout — he leads the AL with a .363 batting average and is fourth with a 172 wRC+ — the two-time Gold Glove winner is third among all left fielders in both DRS and FRV (8 and 5, respectively) despite missing about four weeks due to a left hamstring strain. Rocchio, a rookie, has hit for just an 85 wRC+ but ranks third among all shortstops in both DRS and UZR (6 and 3.6, respectively), a vast improvement from last year’s performance by the since-traded Amed Rosario. Laureano, who struggled at the plate, was released in late May; his replacement in right field, Will Brennan (who’s currently on the injured list with rib cage inflammation), is the team’s worst defender by the metrics (-5 DRS, -2.8 UZR, -2 FRV). Can’t win ’em all.

The team does have one more stellar fielder, second baseman Andrés Giménez, a two-time Gold Glove winner. He’s fourth at the position with 9 DRS and tied for third with 6 FRV, though he’s only average-ish (0.3 runs) in UZR — a spread that typically offers a good example of what we see in viewing half a season through the lens of multiple metrics. Given Giménez’s data for this year and the previous ones (including last year’s exceptional 23 DRS, 14 FRV, and 6.8 UZR), the safer interpretation is that he shows up somewhere along the spectrum from slightly above average to significantly above average, if no longer elite.

The Guardians also have a strong defensive tandem behind the plate in Bo Naylor and Austin Hedges. They’re excellent in framing and around average in blocking and throwing; Naylor’s caught stealing percentage has improved from 12% last year to 26% this year. Together the pair accounts for 12 DRS, 11 FRV, and 6.8 FRM. Super-duper utilityman David Fry, who’s played 22 games at catcher while also taking reps at all four corners, is solid defensively while providing some much-needed offense — so much that he hit his way onto the AL All-Star team.

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A bit more about the methodology is in order. To account for all the bits in the alphabet soup, I aggregated the aforementioned metrics, adjusting for the varying spreads in run values by using standard deviation scores (z-scores), which measure how many standard deviations each team is from the league average in each category. As a change from past editions of this exercise, I’ve broken out catching DRS from the rest of a team’s DRS (as I had previously done with Statcast’s metrics), thus creating three catcher scores that pair with three scores for the other fielders. These catcher ratings were then weighted at one-half the value of the non-catcher scores, which improved the correlation with run prevention.

The spreads in runs for the six categories:

Defensive Metrics Run Value Ranges
Metric Split Max Min
DRS_non-C Non-Catchers 46 -39
DRS_C Catchers 14 -13
UZR Non-Catchers 14.8 -20.4
FRM Catchers 6.7 -4.6
FRV_non-C Non-Catchers 25 -27
FRV_C Catchers 11 -8
All statistics through July 7.

Here’s how the rankings look, top to bottom; you can see the actual run values for all but the DRS and FRV catcher breakouts here. I’ve highlighted each category’s leaders and trailers, which helps to illustrate where the metrics agree — all three systems concur regarding the three best sets of catchers, and the White Sox are unsurprisingly among the worst in everything — and disagree.

Team Defense Standard Deviation Scores
Team DRS_nonC-z DRS_C-z UZR-z FRM-z FRV_nonC-z FRV_C-z Tot
Yankees 0.60 2.24 1.20 2.29 1.28 2.06 6.38
Guardians 1.36 1.76 0.76 2.09 0.60 1.87 5.57
Blue Jays 1.83 0.96 0.67 0.82 1.43 1.32 5.48
Royals 1.26 1.12 1.39 -0.41 1.28 0.76 4.67
Rangers 1.17 0.00 1.01 1.03 1.89 -0.34 4.41
Diamondbacks -0.16 0.32 1.64 -0.17 0.98 0.21 2.63
Orioles 0.74 0.00 1.46 -0.51 0.83 -0.90 2.32
Dodgers 1.02 0.16 0.88 0.45 -0.16 0.02 2.06
Rockies -0.21 0.32 1.47 0.07 0.29 0.58 2.04
Braves 1.02 0.16 0.17 0.31 0.22 0.58 1.94
Brewers 1.50 -1.12 -0.03 -0.54 1.51 -0.90 1.70
Tigers -0.45 1.44 -0.28 1.40 -0.39 1.87 1.25
Mariners 0.22 1.12 -0.59 1.20 -0.39 1.32 1.06
Giants -0.45 0.96 0.05 0.17 0.07 0.39 0.43
Cardinals 0.60 -0.64 0.41 -0.07 -0.31 -0.16 0.26
Twins -0.68 0.64 -1.13 0.99 0.75 0.58 0.04
Astros -0.16 -0.80 0.87 -0.34 0.37 -1.08 -0.03
Phillies 0.31 -0.16 -0.64 -1.26 0.67 -0.16 -0.45
Red Sox 0.55 0.00 -0.30 -0.41 -0.62 -0.90 -1.02
Rays -0.97 0.32 -0.94 0.89 -0.09 0.21 -1.29
Padres -0.02 -1.44 0.27 -1.26 -0.09 -1.27 -1.82
Pirates -0.68 -0.32 0.03 0.00 -1.23 -0.16 -2.11
Angels 0.12 0.16 -0.66 -0.68 -1.45 -0.90 -2.70
Cubs -0.30 -0.80 -0.63 -1.37 -0.24 -1.08 -2.80
Mets -1.06 -1.12 -1.09 -0.54 -0.77 0.21 -3.65
Reds -1.16 -0.80 -1.16 -0.85 -0.62 -0.34 -3.93
Nationals -0.92 -0.96 -0.21 -1.57 -1.23 -1.27 -4.26
Athletics -1.44 -1.12 -0.72 0.00 -1.45 -1.08 -4.72
Marlins -1.44 -0.32 -2.28 -0.34 -1.07 0.02 -5.11
White Sox -2.20 -2.08 -1.61 -1.40 -2.06 -1.45 -8.34
All statistics through July 7. Yellow = top-three ranking in category (including ties). Blue = bottom-three ranking in category (including ties).

What follows is a closer look at the other teams in the top six by this rating. I’ll have a companion article covering the bottom-ranked teams in my next installment.

Yankees

Despite their recent slide, the Yankees own the AL’s third-best record (55-38), and spent much of the first half atop the AL East. They built what at one point was the league’s best record without Gerrit Cole, as the reigning AL Cy Young winner missed the first two and a half months of the season due to nerve inflammation in his right elbow. A big part of that was the pitching of fireballer Luis Gil and the more contact-oriented Nestor Cortes and Clarke Schmidt (who’s now sidelined by a lat strain), all of whom were aided by a defense that rates as the best by this methodology.

Like the Guardians, the Yankees have a top-notch catching tandem in Jose Trevino (a 2022 Gold Glove winner) and Austin Wells, who have split the catching chores right down the middle. (They entered Monday within two innings of each other.) Both have 7 DRS, with Trevino rated better by the two framing metrics and Statcast’s blocking metric, but worse at throwing; the Red Sox stole a whopping nine bases against him on June 16, but his 21% caught stealing rate is only two points below league average. (Wells is right at average.) The net cost of the catchers’ deficiency in throwing out base thieves comes out to just -3 runs.

Given the lopsided nature of the Yankees’ offense these days — Aaron Judge, Juan Soto, newcomer Ben Rice, the now-injured Giancarlo Stanton, and Trevino are their only regular hitters with a wRC+ above 100 — you might infer that the Yankees have prioritized defense over offense, and that’s at least the case when it comes to their two defensive standouts, shortstop Anthony Volpe and left fielder Alex Verdugo. Volpe’s 94 wRC+ won’t make anyone forget Derek Jeter, but his 8 FRV is second among all shortstops, and he’s above average in DRS (3) and UZR (1.8) as well. Verdugo’s 98 wRC+ is light for a corner outfielder (a career-long problem), but his fly-chasing skills are welcome in spacious Yankee Stadium, and he scores well on all three metrics (5 DRS, 3.2 UZR, 3 FRV). Judge and Soto are both average or better in all three. That’s no small task for the former given that he’s playing center field regularly these days, and it’s a welcome turnaround for the latter, who has put in the work to improve after a bad defensive showing in San Diego last year.

Statcast really loves the team in general, as 11 of the Yankees’ 13 players with at least 100 innings at a position are above average, and the lowest (third baseman Oswaldo Cabrera) grades out at -2 FRV but much better via the other metrics. Their only player at the 100-inning cutoff with negative ratings in two of the three metrics is Gleyber Torres, who has accompanied his grim 85 wRC+ with -4 DRS and -1.5 UZR. As the Yankees cast about for infield upgrades in advance of the upcoming trade deadline, swapping out defense for offense would make some sense.

Blue Jays

After consecutive AL Wild Card berths and three straight seasons with at least 89 wins, the Blue Jays rate as one of the year’s disappointing teams. They rank among the league’s five worst in both scoring and run prevention, but nonetheless, they’ve got fielders that can go get it. Their non-catchers rank among the top three in both DRS and FRV, and their catchers scored well, too.

Leading the way is the outfield, which leads the majors in both DRS (27) and FRV (21). Daulton Varsho’s 12 DRS and 8 FRV both lead all left fielders, and Varsho and four-time Gold Glove winner Kevin Kiermaier are tied for fourth with 7 DRS in center as well. (Kiermaier’s 6 FRV is tied for eighth.) Right fielder George Springer is in the top 10 in both categories as well. Unfortunately, the outfielders’ collective 81 wRC+ is weighing down the team’s offense, particularly Kiermaier’s 49 wRC+; left fielder Davis Schneider’s 100 wRC+ is tops among that group. That Varsho’s 1.8 WAR ranks second on the team despite his ugly .197/.282/.391 (91 wRC+) slash line is symptomatic of the problem.

Ahead of Varsho with 2.0 WAR is the versatile Isiah Kiner-Falefa, who is not only hitting for a career-best 117 wRC+ but has totaled 11 DRS, 5.0 UZR, and 2 FRV in 290 innings at third base, 246 2/3 at second, and 105 at shortstop. Catcher Alejandro Kirk has been strong across the board (7 FRV, 6 DRS, 3.4 UZR) to barely offset his 73 wRC+; Danny Jansen, with whom he shares the job, has accompanied average defense with a 100 wRC+, so their combined 2.0 WAR at the position is pretty respectable. Similar to the Yankees, 14 of the 16 players with at least 100 innings at a position (including the aforementioned IKF and Varsho at multiple spots) are in the black in terms of FRV, with Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (-4 at first base) and Ernie Clement (-2 at third base) the exceptions.

Royals

If the Guardians are a positive surprise, the Royals are even more of one, as their 49-43 record gives them a shot at their first winning season and first playoff appearance since their 2015 championship. They didn’t crack the top three in any of the categories, but they are third overall in DRS (including catchers) behind Toronto and Cleveland, and fourth in both FRV (including catchers) and UZR; their infield ranks among the top three in all three metrics. DRS and UZR particularly seem to love this team; at the 100-inning cutoff, everybody but catcher Salvador Perez (-1 DRS) and right fielder Hunter Renfroe (-0.5 UZR) are average or better in their respective metrics.

The standout, not surprisingly, is Bobby Witt Jr., whose 10 FRV leads all shortstops; he’s tied for fifth with 5 DRS as well. Center fielder Kyle Isbel (5 FRV, 4 DRS, 2.3 UZR) has been excellent. Their second basemen (mainly Michael Massey, Adam Frazier, and Nick Loftin) have combined for 8 DRS, 3 FRV, and 3.0 UZR. Catching-wise, Freddy Fermin’s 8 DRS is an outlier for what are otherwise more or less average ratings; even Perez, whose career framing work is so poor (-116.7 FRM, including -41.2 over the past three) that it will keep him off my Hall of Fame ballot someday, comes in at just -1.2 FRM in his 439 innings behind the plate.

Rangers

The defending world champions have scuffled to a 44-48 record despite outscoring opponents by 14 runs; they’re an AL-high four wins below their Pythagenpat-projected record, and two below their BaseRuns-projected record. They had one of the majors’ best defenses last year, and they’ve done well in that department again.

Their infield leads the majors in both DRS (30) and FRV (21), and the biggest standout has once again been second baseman Marcus Semien, whose 10 FRV is best at the position and whose 11 DRS is tied for second. Ezequiel Duran totaled 9 DRS and 5 FRV while seeing time at all four infield spots and both outfield corners (though just one inning in right) before he was optioned to Triple-A in late June. Duran, Josh Smith, Davis Wendzel, and Jonathan Ornelas have combined for 13 DRS, 6 FRV, and 2.8 UZR to offset the loss of third baseman Josh Jung, who’s been limited to just four games due to a right wrist injury. Shortstop Corey Seager (4 DRS, 1 FRV, 0.2 UZR) has been solid, and likewise for the catchers (Jonah Heim and backup Andrew Knizner). The outfield has been in the upper third of the majors in all three metrics, though right fielder Adolis García is average or worse in all three after a very strong 2023, and center fielder Leody Taveras has one of the widest gulfs of any fielder between his DRS (-6) and FRV (4).

Diamondbacks

This season hasn’t gone well for the defending NL champions, as they’re 45-47. They recently won six out of nine, but the three losses were gutting, as they surrendered the lead in the final inning each time, twice via walk-offs and once in extra innings. While the Diamondbacks rank second in the NL in scoring, they’re third worst in run prevention, but part of that is because their pitching staff has allowed the second-highest home run rate in the senior circuit. Their defense has generally been good, though a couple issues do stand out.

On the positive side, Ketel Marte’s 11 DRS is tied with Semien for second among second basemen; his 2.4 UZR is second as well, and his 6 FRV is tied for fourth. First baseman Christian Walker’s 7 FRV and 3.1 UZR are tops at the position, his 6 DRS tied for second. Starting catcher Gabriel Moreno has been strong (5 DRS, 3 FRV, 1.4 FRM), though backup Tucker Barnhart, who’s gotten about one-third of the playing time, is about two runs below average in all three metrics.

On the other hand, their shortstops — Kevin Newman, Geraldo Perdomo, and Blaze Alexander — have combined for -8 DRS and -4 FRV, though that’s mostly a product of the since-demoted Alexander’s struggles while Perdomo was sidelined for 10 weeks due to surgery for a torn right meniscus. Corbin Carroll, who has tumbled to a 77 wRC+ in the follow-up to his NL Rookie of the Year-winning campaign, has played mostly center field; his -7 DRS is ominous, though contrasted by more positive metrics (1.1 UZR, 1 FRV).

While I could certainly say more about each of these teams and the next ones in the rankings, I’ll keep my powder dry for my look at the worst defenses, with an emphasis on the bad ones on contenders.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

58 Comments
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grandbranyanMember since 2017
2 years ago

Interesting the Brewers don’t rank higher, though it looks like Contreras framing regression has held them back somewhat.

Maybe this is a better comment for a Dan article, but I noticed the other day on depth charts that Brewers pitchers are projected rest of season for a 4.21 ERA / 4.22 FIP.

So far this season they are running an MLB best -0.56 ERA/FIP gap. I know that is bound to regress some (though they finished at -0.48 last year) but it seems the projections might be overcorrecting considering the Brewers ERA has beaten their FIP every full season since 2016 to the tune of a -0.23 ERA/FIP gap over the 1,287 games in that stretch.

Seems like projecting their ERA so close to their FIP is a pretty big oversight at this point and could be a pretty big factor in the Brewers being an MLB best +58 wins versus the depth chart win projections during the seven full seasons in the playoff odds database.

g4Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

Insightful comment GB. Brewers non-catcher defense passes the eye test and obviously ranks in the top 3 by these numbers. I would opine that Contreras’s regression also has been noticeable by the eye, though I suspect he is neither as bad as this chart indicates nor as good as last year’s numbers (ignoring Gary Sanchez’s effect).

Contreras has played a lot, perhaps general fatigue has led to a little sloppiness in day-to-day receiving. Still, he’s young, and I’d like to believe we’ll see the sharpest version of his skills come the postseason.

proiste
2 years ago

Red Sox aren’t last – yay!

kevo8Member since 2020
2 years ago

These catcher ratings were then weighted at one-half the value of the non-catcher scores, which improved the correlation with run prevention.”

Found this interesting and would love to hear you expound on this piece. Does this imply that current catcher defensive ratings are overstating catcher’s impact?

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  kevo8

Keep in mind that this is implying that catcher defense should be valued the same as half of ALL 8 other defensive positions or an average of 4 other non-catching fielders combined. That’s like the approximate combined value of the SS, CF, 1B, and P; or that of the 2B, 3B, RF, and LF.

kevo8Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Good point, although I think it’s a bit less straightforward because the weights apply to the Z-scores rather than simple averages. I think your broader point likely holds though.

This has potential implications, in the other direction – does this then imply that we are underrating catcher defense?

Z-scoring impacts the exact interpretation as well (if catcher defense has a wider standard deviation than most positions, then a one run improvement in catcher defense would not be equivalent to a four run improvement in non-catcher defense/a one run improvement across four non-catcher positions), but I think the broader idea may still hold.

Anyways, I may be getting into a rabbit hole here, but would still love Jay’s commentary!

formerly matt wMember since 2025
2 years ago
Reply to  kevo8

Probably not. The metrics themselves are giving the run value ranges for each of the six categories, and those show that the spread for non-catcher defense is bigger than the spread for catcher defense. Which is as you’d expect, since there are seven non-catchers per catcher (pitcher defense being pretty much left out).

The six scores that Jay is adding up are normalized to standard deviation relative to that spread, so that’s pumping up the catcher score relative to the numbers that the ratings give. For example, the highest non-C DRS score is the Jays with 46, and the highest C DRS score is the Yankees with 14. But because the overall spread for C DRS score is lower, the Yankees are 2.24 standard deviations above average for C DRS, and the Jays are only 1.83 standard deviations above average for non-C DRS. It wouldn’t make sense for the same number of “points” to be available for a category that has a lower overall contribution to run value, so the catcher defense gets downgraded so it isn’t weighted the same as everyone else’s defense put together.

(The total spread for non-catcher D is almost exactly three times the total spread for catcher D, which I naïvely might think would mean catcher defense should be divided by 3, but someone who knows stats better can probably explain why that’s the wrong calculation–or why square root of 3 might be better.)

baltfanMember since 2025
2 years ago

As an Orioles fan having watched the Yankees a fair amount, it is crazy to me that they would be rated so high on this list. Beside Volpe and Verdugo, the rest of the defense appears slow and average at best. As for Trevino, he has been exposed for his horrendous arm. The Soto numbers also seem especially ridiculous. I know that the eye test isn’t everything, but you would think it could identify a top level defense. Having watched the Jays, Guardians, and Royals a fair amount, their inclusion on this list, on the other hand, was not a surprise.

grandbranyanMember since 2017
2 years ago
Reply to  baltfan

Obviously more goes into a team’s ERA beating their FIP than just defense, but the Yankees have the second largest ERA/FIP gap this year at -0.55. Also third in Defensive Efficiency this year which is just the raw percentage of batted balls turned into outs. Lots of signal there that they are a top defense.

They’ve also been one of the better FIP beaters going back to 2022 with their -0.33 gap 4th best in MLB over that stretch behind only LAD, MIL, HOU and just ahead of CLE.

Probably not all that coincidentally those are also four of the top five teams by DRS over the 2022-present stretch with NYY (+157, 1st), MIL (+135, 2nd), CLE (+122, 3rd) and LAD (+121, 5th). HOU comes in 10th at +56 DRS.

Last edited 2 years ago by grandbranyan
Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

Still, most of the gap between ERAs and FIPs in general is from pitcher skill generating soft contact on balls in play rather than team defense.

tung_twista
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I don’t have a strong belief one way or another and am curious to hear your reasoning why pitcher skill accounts for most of ERA-FIP gap.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

We know that there is significant pitcher skill regarding balls in play, and it’s just common sense that pitching factors into run prevention MUCH more heavily than defense does.

Maybe it’s closer to even than I expect, since some of the gap is also caused by luck rather than pitcher skill, but I can’t imagine that fielding would actually outvalue pitcher skill in this regard.

kevo8Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Pitching skill definitely outweighs defense in overall run prevention, but I think you’re eliding that (arguably) most pitching skill is also ready captured in FIP. So the difference between ERA and FIP is not determing whether pitching matters more than defense, but whether defense matters more than the parts of pitching ignored by FIP.

To put it in formulas:

  • FIP – league average ERA = pitching skill captured by FIP
  • Team ERA – FIP = non-FIP pitching skill + defense (+ luck)

I don’t think there’s an obvious answer as to which weighs heavier, but my instinctive reaction is that I’d expect it to be defense – it’s a significant part of the game, and this is the one area where it gets to show up in a team’s run totals.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  grandbranyan

Yes—typically when a team’s pitchers are mostly (or entirely) outstripping the ERA estimators (xERA, FIP, SIERA) that means the defense is doing the heavy lifting. But why this is happening for the Yankees, I have no idea. It’s truly baffling that their defensive metrics and the gap is so good, because they do not have a ton of great defenders.

EonADSMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Part of the ERA-FIP gap is also that FIP doesn’t seem to know how to account for popup and high launch-angle fly balls, which don’t produce a lot of hits. It was part of the reason Julio Teheran was such a FIP-beater during his prime; his popup rate was always well above the average. Pitchers with high average launch angles in general seem to outperform their FIP. Ben Lively is a good example. They’ll give up more home runs than average, but popups are also the most harmless form of contact, bar none, so they get a fair number of free outs. Unlike ground balls, baserunners also advance to the next base less often on flyouts, so their LoB% tends to be slightly better as long as they run roughly average BABIPs.

In the Yankees’ case, Luis Gil, Clarke Schmidt, Marcus Stroman (running a career high IFFB rate, around 11% versus 6.5% average), and several relievers (Luke Weaver first and foremost, but also Kahnle and Gonzalez) are all beneficiaries of that.

Last edited 2 years ago by EonADS
Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago

Perez, whose career framing work is so poor….that it will keep him off my Hall of Fame ballot someday.

This is 100% accurate but in a way it also seems weird/unfair that something we didn’t even really track until recently has such a huge impact on a guys career. Like, when Perez was growing up and learning baseball (and even into his pro career) pitch framing wasn’t a thing. Now he gets dinged a pretty huge amount for not being very good at it. And thats without even getting into the fact that in the future it probably wont be a thing again due to robo umps.

I dont know what my point really is, just a weird thing to wrap your head around. For 100ish years pitching framing wasnt a thing. Then for a couple decades it was hugely important, then it wasn’t a thing again (again, assuming some sort of computer ump). Its going to be a weird thing to look back on.

Last edited 2 years ago by Shirtless George Brett
bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
2 years ago

The fact that he received 5 Gold Gloves before framing, I prefer to think of it as lousy umpiring and it has been worse than usual this year, was even a thing says it all. He should not be penalized after the fact. The law recognizes that if you did something years ago when it was legal but is now a crime you cannot be charged. How about looking at something that can actually be measured, like CS%. Those 48% and 44% figures are real and carry a lot of weight, these are not subjective, when ranking a catcher. For several years Salvador Perez was considered one of the premier catchers in the game, led the Royals to two pennants and was the MVP of the 2015 World Series. This man deserves strong consideration for the Hall of Fame.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Actually, caught stealing % is also somewhat subjective. The better a catcher’s throwing arm (or at least his reputation for it), the fewer attempts runners will make when they feel they aren’t as likely to make it. As such, the best throwing catchers actually see their CS% artificially drop somewhat, as when a runner does attempt a steal, the odds are greater that he’s gotten a great lead, has already drawn two disengagements from the pitcher, or has otherwise stolen the base off the pitcher.

I’ve seen it suggested before, but there needs to be some kind of caught stealing metric that also accounts for the number of steal attempts made per innings caught.

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Framing was definitely a thing when he got those GG (which is why alot of people dont value his GG’s too highly) his 5th GG was in 2018.

But more importantly, different things have different value. CS% is never going to hold a candle to pitch framing the same way a SB is not as valuable as a HR. You could have a 100% CS rate and it wouldn’t even come close to the impact of pitch framing. The year he had 48% CS he threw out 21 runners. That’s it.

Now maybe him being behind the plate stopped teams from attempting to run on him, but even if he threw out 100 runners its still just a minuscule amount compared to the ~20,000 pitches a year he probably receives.

Lanidrac
2 years ago

Controlling the running game may not be as valuable as framing, but is framing really as immensely valuable as the metrics currently claim it is in their calculations? I highly doubt it. I think the number of runs saved by framing is pretty overrated. I bet controlling the running game and blocking combined is more valuable than framing or at least comes close to it.

For one thing, even just preventing a runner from taking an extra base is quite a bit more valuable than turning a single ball call into a strike call (on average, since the ones that result in an immediate strikeout are admittedly rather valuable), which makes up for much of the volume difference.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
formerly matt wMember since 2025
2 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

As a Pirates fan it is fantastic news that we are retrospectively eliminating framing from games before we knew how to measure it, as it means the team gets back all those wins from Ryan Doumit’s terrible catching, there’s no losing streak, and yinz can stop making jokes now.

(OK, somehow there were no years when Doumit’s framing cost the Pirates a .500 season, though it might have been true for Jason Kendall in 1997–do we even have framing numbers back that far?)

More to the point, framing has been known about for a while even if it hasn’t been quantified–Ian Snell made some pointed remarks about how much better the pitch framing was in Indianapolis than with Doumit’s Pirates–and it had real impacts on the games. Those don’t go away just because we didn’t know how to measure them. Other catchers figured out how to do framing and I don’t think we should ignore the impact that aspect of Perez’s game had on his team’s success.

(Anyway, Perez seems like a clear no vote even aside from framing. For his career he has a slightly above-average bat. Pudge Rodriguez and Yadier Molina can get into the HoF with that kind of offense with acknowledged all-world defense over a long time, but are we pushing for Lance Parrish in the Hall? Jorge Posada couldn’t get in with a much better bat as part of a legendary dynasty.)

david k
2 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I can’t believe anyone on this site uses GGs as evidence of a player’s good defense. Ever since Rafael Palmiero got a GG for being a DH for almost the entire season highlighted the farce that the GG award is, and still is to this day. Yes, some GG winners deserve it too, but I wouldn’t use it as evidence that just because they got the award, they are necessarily a good defender. Perez is simply not an elite defender.

Lanidrac
2 years ago

Whether or not we ever have fully automated strike zones (which is far from a sure thing, maybe only a challenge system if they implement it at all), I think we’re going to eventually find that pitch framing isn’t as valuable as the metrics currently think it is. The good majority of value for catcher defense should still be a combination of controlling the running game and blocking balls in the dirt.

Speaking of which, how about working on improving defensive catcher metrics for blocking?

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

 think we’re going to eventually find that pitch framing isn’t as valuable as the metrics currently think it is. 

I kinda doubt that. The amount of pitches a catcher receives every year is in the 10’s of thousands. Even just the “frameable pitches” (IE the ones that are close) is well into the thousands. For example, Perez had nearly 2500 such pitches last year and he was only 23rd in MLB.

So the cumulative effect of pitch framing is going to be massive. There really isn’t any way around it.

Lanidrac
2 years ago

That volume is accounted for by the lesser value each frameable pitch has compared to each event from the other two aspects of catcher defense. It may take 3 or 4 frameable pitches on average to represent the same value as preventing a baserunner from taking an extra base (via either controlling the running game or blocking), and many more to match the same value of actually throwing out a runner on the bases, via caught stealing, a catcher pickoff, or some other play.

david k
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I guess that depends on what percentage of these borderline pitches get the call flipped from one call to the opposite. You would have to take that, and then average out the expected run differential of the count difference (assuming you don’t look at every single one and do it for that specific count), and then compare with the expected run differential of a baserunner advancing one base. I can’t say I know for sure which of these will result in a larger impact in the result of a game, but it feels to me like pitch framing probably would, unless a catcher is miles ahead/behind his peers in blocking/throwing (the latter is hard to measure too because a catchers reputation alone can limit stolen base attempts, and that’s pretty tough to quantify)

lacslyer
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

If they implement a challenge system over the automated zone I’d argue that catcher framing would actually be even more impactful, primarily because with a challenge system a batter is limited in review calls. So good framing to get those borderline calls will be even more impactful to the game.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  lacslyer

No, it wouldn’t, as that would still be one or more calls per game where the value of framing is potentially neutralized compared to the current human umpire system. Either the catcher fails to frame it well enough to fool the umpire and the pitch gets called a ball to begin with (in other words, nothing changes from the current system), or he does frame it well enough to get a called strike, and the batter either accepts it (again, nothing changes) or gets it overturned to a ball call on review, which does damage the value of framing. If the call is upheld, once again it’s the same result as the current system.

There’s also the (presumably) more rare situation where a catcher is so bad at framing a pitch that the defense gets a ball call overturned to become a strike call, but that also limits the value of framing, just from the other end of the spectrum.

A limited negative in comparison is still a negative.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
2 years ago

Let’s rephrase this as “Put Russell Nathan Coltrane Jeanson Martin in the Hall”

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago

I never knew that was his name. That’s a heckuva name. And Brian McCann has a similar case, but alas a worse name.

ColonelMustard
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Imagine how much stronger McCann’s HOF case would be if the shift had been banned during his time.

Although given McCann’s reputation as an old-schooler, he might not approve of the modern shift ban

formerly matt wMember since 2025
2 years ago
Reply to  ColonelMustard

Seems like the shift ban would probably be congenial to old-schoolers? At least when McCann was playing, I figured that the old school line was that they should let players play instead of having some pointy-headed intellectual tell the second baseman to stand in short right field.

McCann and Martin are definitely interesting cases. Martin has similar career wRC+ to Pudge R. (and so, a few ticks higher than Yadi), but his all-world defense was less fully acknowledged at the time. McCann’s bat was a decent bit better but not HoF-level without credit for his great defense. They get hurt by lack of overall playing time, neither reaching 7000 career PA and Martin only getting 500 PA three times after age 26. If you go strictly by fWAR (which HoF voters don’t and shouldn’t), the other catchers in the 50s are getting in; the catchers in the 50s are Posey-Dickey-Yadi-Martin-Simmons-Hartnett-Mauer-McCann-Cochrane. Yadi, Martin, and McCann stand out as the three getting there mostly on defensive numbers, and Martin, McCann, and Cochrane are the ones who don’t have 7000 PA, though Cochrane has the tragic story of having his career ended by a beanball.

My hot take is that if the Pirates had somehow won a World Series in 2014 or 2015, Martin would be in.

(Also the comparison to Pudge R.’s career batting line is not fair to Pudge; if he’d retired after age 32 he’d have still had more PA than Martin or McCann, his wRC+ would be 113 which is better than either, and his WAR would be 58.5 also better than either. Plus he probably loses some defensive numbers from framing numbres only being available for the tail end of his career, if his framing age curve was anything like Yadi’s.)

ColonelMustard
2 years ago

That makes sense, you might be right about most old-schoolers being pro shift ban.

It’s hard for me to be objective about catchers because we have a hard time quantifying their defensive contributions and they take such a beating. Catchers are tough sons of guns that are hard not to root for and empathize with

joehieronymus
2 years ago

Pitch framing is like flopping in basketball and soccer. You’re trying to fool the umpire/referee into making an incorrect call. It should not have as much weight as it does. It goes against the core principles of sportsmanship.

ColonelMustard
2 years ago
Reply to  joehieronymus

What you said is definitely true of some frame jobs but many of the borderline pitches are strikes. Put another way: the best executed pitches each year require a nice frame/presentation to get credit for.

So it’s a skill that is ethical when applied to any strike and unethical when applied to any ball and the margin from saint to sinner is the seam of a baseball.

I understand and emphasize with your point but the only alternative involves robo umps in some capacity

joehieronymus
2 years ago
Reply to  ColonelMustard

I am steadfastly against penalizing a player for an umpire’s poor performance. (It’s like awarding an obvious foul ball or clear fan interference as homeruns.)

I respect Jaffe a lot, but if he gives Perez HOF case demerits because of pitch-framing, he is flat-out wrong to do so.

marcusthelionMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  joehieronymus

Yeah; the framing data always struck me as more than a little fuzzy if informative.
But I was disappointed to read that Jaffe’s already decided his HOF vote on an active player having a strong season.
My father was a catcher & I’m from KC, so I’m about as unbiased as Salvy’s mom, but nonetheless… heck, I’m here in part to avoid depressing news about a future election, running into disappointment about a future election was a heck of a buzz crunch.
So I hope Mr. Perez puts on an October showcase & Mr. Jaffe has to publicly eat his words.

WhatLeylandNoooo
2 years ago

Tigers certainly pass the eye test too. Jake Rogers and Carson Kelly doing yeoman’s work trying to salvage their teammates’ sloppy play

Tristan
2 years ago

There’s a world where Daulton Varsho could conceivably deserve a Platinum Glove but fail to win a Gold Glove.

KinanikMember since 2016
2 years ago

Ian Happ was complaining on his podcast about OAA and positioning, and I wonder which metrics his criticism applies to. I paraphrase:

If a player positions himself better and makes the play ‘easier’, he doesn’t get as much credit for the play than he would if he is poorly positioned and still makes the play.

So you get more credit if you stand at mid-depth and make 2 hard plays, one shallow and one deep, than you get if you had anticipated, moved in before the shallow play, then moved out before the deep play.

This seems like an even bigger deal on a team level than an individual level. You could conceivably look just at Defensive Efficiency or ERA-FIP, but then park effects get involved…

WhatLeylandNoooo
2 years ago
Reply to  Kinanik

That assumes they can make the hard play, in which they would receive credit for, because its a harder play to make

But more likely, they are poorly positioned *and* cannot make the play (because it is harder to make) and receive no credit or get dinged accordingly. Whereas if they are positioned correctly and make the now easier play, they receive some credit for making the play

If they do happen to make the harder play and receive more credit, most likely their poor positioning will keep them from making *other* plays and the impact of the credit they receive for making the 1-2 harder plays due to their poor positioning will be negated over time. Hence why most followers of defensive metrics provide the caveat of small sample size, that over time these blips will balance themselves out one way or the other

Shirtless George Brett
2 years ago
Reply to  Kinanik

Happ isnt wrong but it also not a particularly big issue either. You would have to be playing wildly out of position on nearly every play for it to actually matter in terms of impacting your OAA. And even then you are still going to get balls hit to you that are easier than if you were playing in the correct position or not make plays you would have made if playing the correct position.

So, as whatleylandnoooo says, its going to balance out in a large enough sample size and not be particularly relevant.

hazelrah
2 years ago

As recently as 2 years ago, LF were being hugely penalized for OAA at Fenway for balls that were actually uncatchable off the monster. Expect that there are other places this happens too

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Kinanik

I’m with Ian Happ on this. The objective is to make the most plays and allow the lowest wOBACON. It’s not to run the farthest to make plays.

szakylMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

I don’t think Happ’s opinion makes as much sense from the other side.

Looking at more of an extreme case back in the days of the shift, if the 3B is playing where the SS normally is and a slow roller goes to where the 3B normally is, he would get dinged badly for a play that’s made 90% of the time, but is impossible for him because he was in the shift.

The shift is an extreme case that no longer exists, but you’d still have this a smaller scale. A SS can be up the middle, shaded towards 2B bag, straight up, or toward SS/3B hole. Players will be dinged for missing outs that were made most of the time by others at the position that were positioned better.

You can get past this by grading the difficulty of the play in buckets based on different roles, but at that point you may as well completely remove the positioning.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  szakyl

Or maybe their dinging in those situations is offset by easily fielding a zillion grounders straight at them which would be considered impossible if they were positioned conventionally.

david k
2 years ago
Reply to  szakyl

Is this metric really measured by where the average normal position is relative to where the ball goes, rather than by the distance from where the fielder is located at the time the batter makes contact with the ball and where the ball ends up (taking into account ball speed and trajectory, etc. of course)? I always assumed it was the latter. The former is a very silly way to measure it in my opinion, even without the extreme shifts anymore.

szakylMember since 2024
2 years ago
Reply to  david k

Statcast is not measured by the average player position. But if you want to give players credit for their positioning as Happ proposes, the baseline would have to be every the aggregate of other balls hit similarly regardless of player position. Most of those similar plays for the baseline would be from a traditional positioning.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

I don’t really know why we are still using UZR and DRS when OAA is so much more accurate.

Or, for that matter, why team defense is measured by aggregating individuals. There has to be a simpler way to do it if it’s the whole team, correct?

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

What about wOBACON on balls in play vs xwOBACON on balls in play

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

For that matter wOBA – xwOBA might be directionally correct like K-BB. TTO would cancel

formerly matt wMember since 2025
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Seems like that could have a problem with spray angle. A ground ball ripped hard inside the third base bag has the same xwOBA as a groundball ripped right at the shortstop (I believe), but it’s not the defense’s fault that one is a double and one is an out.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
2 years ago

Shouldn’t this even out over the course of a season?

hazelrah
2 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Pretty sure xwoba doesn’t account for spray angle, which is important in this case

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

OAA still doesn’t account for outfield arms, correct? It doesn’t care whether or not the OF managed to either keep a runner from advancing or even throw him out after the catch. Although, I believe there’s an individual arm metric that can be combined with OAA for outfielders. Overall, I agree that UZR and DRS are too archaic nowadays.

However, I don’t think there is a simple way to measure team defense, as different positions have different roles that make certain defensive skills more or less valuable. For example, a good arm is much more useful at catcher, the OF, 3B, or SS than it is for 2B or 1B.

david k
2 years ago

Re: Diamondbacks: Tucker Barnhart is no longer with the team. I think they will see improvement there with Herrera. Also, Corbin won’t be playing much CF now that Alek Thomas is back, so that position should see a hefty improvement, as Thomas is one of the best defensive CF in the game.

joehieronymus
2 years ago

Perez, whose career framing work is so poor (-116.7 FRM, including -41.2 over the past three) that it will keep him off my Hall of Fame ballot someday

Pitch framing is like flopping in basketball and soccer. By saying Perex not doing this well enough will keep him off your HOF ballot, it would seem you should not be allowed to have a vote.

sirpuffmcdrunk
2 years ago

Pitch framing is the worst. The absolute worst. We need robot umpires yesterday.