The Red Sox Shouldn’t Trade Mookie Betts
The Red Sox have had a sad start to the offseason, even by the standards of baseball’s recent payroll doomsaying. While some teams have intimated that they won’t increase payroll, the Sox have gone further; owner John Henry announced that they plan on dropping below the luxury tax threshold for 2020, setting the tone for a strange winter where cutting salary might matter more than the eventual product on the field.
Viewed through that lens, it’s somehow a bad development when one of the best hitters in baseball chooses to stay on your team. J.D. Martinez was the 16th-best qualified hitter by wRC+ last year, and that was a down year. He elected not to opt out of his current contract, and is slated to make $23.75 million next season — a steal if he hits his Steamer projection, and a useful piece for a team with no other DH options. And yet, when you set artificial salary constraints on yourself, things tend to snowball.
With Martinez in the fold, things took an even weirder turn. The offseason rumor mill seems increasingly convinced that the Sox will offload Mookie Betts to save the last year of his salary and avoid an appropriately costly extension, reaping some prospects in return and cutting payroll in the bargain. I’ll attempt to quantify what this might do to the team, but let me say upfront: this seems like an obviously bad choice to me. Dan Shaughnessy hit pieces aside, Betts is probably the best non-Trout player in baseball. You don’t trade someone like that and take a step forward.
But okay, fine, let’s go through the math of trading Betts. We’ll do the grim calculus of turning player contracts into cash amounts first: if you value a win on the free market at $8 million, Betts’ 6.6 WAR projection is worth $52.8 million. If Betts earns his projected arbitration salary of $27.7 million, that works out to $25 million in surplus value. That sounds reductive, and it is. Mookie Betts isn’t an asset worth $25 million to the Red Sox; he’s one of the best players in baseball, and also a great bowler in his spare time. But if we’re doing the math, that’s the starting point.
With that surplus value in mind, we can think about what the team might get in return. Per Craig Edwards’ research, a 50 FV position player prospect is worth roughly $28 million in present value, while a 50 FV pitcher is worth $21 million. Someone like Seattle outfielder Julio Rodriguez, say, since all trade examples should include a Mariner for Dipoto purposes.
But that return feels impossibly light for Betts. Indeed, stars tend to go for a bit more than that. One recent point of comparison is the Paul Goldschmidt deal from last winter. The Cardinals acquired Goldschmidt with one year left until free agency. Steamer projected him for 4.1 WAR, and his salary was $15.5 million, which put his excess value at around $17.5 million; Betts-range, though lower. In return, Arizona received Carson Kelly, Luke Weaver, Andy Young, and a competitive balance pick. That works out to something like a 50 FV position player, a 45 FV pitcher, and two 40 FV position players, though the specific deal wasn’t quite that, as neither Weaver nor Kelly had rookie eligibility.
If you assume the Red Sox will also target players who can contribute immediately, this seems like a good framework for a trade. Think of it in the abstract, and it might look something like this: the Red Sox trade away Betts’ 6.6 WAR in 2020 as well as his salary. In return, they get 1.65 WAR in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 between the prospects they receive in return and the money they can redeploy elsewhere (though in practice, it seems like they might just pocket the money).
That’s a very simplistic analysis, and that return still feels light — again, we’re talking about the position player who, since he came up in 2014, is second only to Trout in WAR (37.2 to Trout’s 52.5) versus an amalgam of wins your brain has now shaped into a weird Carson Kelly/Luke Weaver/et al composite. We haven’t even accounted for all the non-baseball benefits (ticket and merchandise sales, fan engagement, outfield dance celebrations) that come from having a Mookie Betts on the roster. But it’s useful for our purposes. If you want to evaluate the cost and benefit of trading Betts, you need to assume a realistic return. Would the Red Sox trade Betts for Juan Soto? Of course! They can’t get Soto, but they’d do it in a heartbeat. There’s no point in evaluating that trade, though — so we’ll evaluate a theoretical trade in which the team neither gains nor loses WAR in expectation.
From there, we can approximate how good the team will be in each of the next four years. A very, very early cut of the math puts the Red Sox at a projected 96.6 wins next year (I worked this out by adding up WAR. As Dan Szymborski will tell you, that’s not a foolproof method). That’s with Betts; subtract him and add back his return in trade, and it gets you to 91.65 wins.
We’re getting quite speculative in projecting future years, but let’s call each of the 2021-2023 squads 89 win teams without either the prospects or Betts. There’s plenty of room around that projection, but it will do as a baseline. Next I also projected the other AL East contenders for the next four years; this is rocky math at best, but necessary for the next step. It looks like this:
| Team | 2020 Wins | 2021 Wins | 2022 Wins | 2023 Wins |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Yankees | 94 | 94 | 94 | 94 |
| Rays | 92 | 92 | 91 | 90 |
| Wild Card Contender 1 | 90 | 90 | 90 | 90 |
| Wild Card Contender 2 | 88 | 88 | 88 | 88 |
The generic Wild Card contenders aren’t any one specific team; rather, they’re approximations of the talent level necessary to contend for a Wild Card. Maybe they’re the A’s, or the Indians — the point is, they’re good but not overpowering.
If you’ll recall, the Red Sox will look like one of these:
| Team | 2020 Wins | 2021 Wins | 2022 Wins | 2023 Wins |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Keep Betts | 96.6 | 89 | 89 | 89 |
| Trade Betts | 91.65 | 90.65 | 90.65 | 90.65 |
From there, we can simulate things out to see how often the Red Sox make the playoffs in each case. Sprinkling in a bit of variance to each team’s projection (here’s a lovely article on variance), I simply simulated each season a million times in each of the two scenarios.
If the Sox keep Betts, they project to win the AL East 1.13 times in the next four years and a Wild Card 1.28 times. That’s extremely front-loaded — they’re 46% to win the East in 2020 and 34% to win a Wild Card. After that, it’s scraps and variance.
What if they trade Betts? Their odds of winning in 2020 decline, of course. If you trust my method, the post-Betts Red Sox would be 28.7% to win the East and 34% to win a Wild Card. The team is better in 2021-2023, but not by quite enough to make up for the shortfall in 2020. All in all, my model gives them an average of 1.09 AL East titles and 1.33 Wild Card berths in the next four years. The two scenarios are indeed mostly equivalent, but the team would prefer the scenario with Betts in the fold marginally, as it’s essentially picking up .04 AL East titles at the cost of .05 Wild Card berths.
The gap is extremely small, such that the return the team gets for Betts is far more important than going all-in for 2020 or pushing the window of contention back. And this result holds even if you think Boston is slightly better or slightly worse than my forward projections. But there’s something missing: the teams that win the East with Betts are better. To wit: in the scenario where the Sox keep Betts, their East-winning teams average 99.7 wins. In the scenario where they trade him, they average only 98.9 wins. Meanwhile, the Wild Card records are roughly identical.
In essence, the Red Sox are more likely to have a juggernaut by keeping Betts, which makes total sense. They might break even on playoff berths by spreading out the wins, but they’ll be doing it, on average, with worse teams. What looks like roughly an even tradeoff skews the way of keeping Betts, because their odds in the playoffs are better with him.
The differences are marginal, of course. That’s always going to be the case when you assume a player gets traded for an exactly offsetting amount of WAR. But the direction is clear. When you’re in a division with a perennial beast like the Yankees, a natural boom-bust cycle is a good way to maximize your odds of winning a World Series.
There’s a second reason that trading Betts for parts doesn’t add up. Imagine the Red Sox trade Betts for a right fielder who projects for 1.65 WAR in each of the next four years, to make the math as easy as possible. Also imagine that the team has two minor league outfielders of exactly replacement level, who might continue to develop or regress.
We can apply a rough estimate to that development or regression by applying a random variable to their future projections. If they’re projected for 0 WAR in 2020, they might be projected for 0.8, or -0.8, in 2021, and so on. I’ve done some work on this in the past, and I applied a rough model to work out a projected right field WAR in each of 2021, 2022, and 2023.
With Betts, the math is pretty simple. In 2020, the team has Mookie Betts in right. That’s a 6.6 WAR projection, per Steamer. From there, it plays whichever of its two anonymous prospects is projected to be better. That works out to the next four years of right field looking like this:
| Choice | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 | 2023 | Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Keep Betts | 6.6 | 0.45 | 0.64 | 0.78 | 8.47 |
Why does the projection increase every year? Because there’s more time for the two players to separate, for one of them to get good. Right now, they might both be replacement level, and indeed, if the team only had one replacement level player, their average production would always be 0. But having two increases the odds of getting lucky with one player’s development.
Let’s do this again, this time with our hypothetical Betts replacement in right. In 2020, the team gets his 1.65 WAR from the spot. From there, it looks like this:
| Choice | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 | 2023 | Total |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Keep Betts | 6.6 | 0.45 | 0.64 | 0.78 | 8.47 |
| Trade Betts | 1.65 | 1.72 | 1.86 | 2.01 | 7.24 |
As you can see, future year WAR also increases in this scenario, because sometimes the replacement level players pass our 1.65 WAR man in expected production. They increase by less, though, which is only natural; the vast majority of the time, the new acquisition remains the best bet in right.
But in aggregate, Boston picks up more expected WAR by getting Betts’ full brilliance in 2020 and then letting replacement level players duke it out after that. The compounding effect of uncertainty is a good way to produce players just a bit above replacement level, but that effect isn’t worth as much if you have average players already filling those spots. Trading a star for an average player, in other words, decreases the value you get from prospect variance.
These two effects are small. One is worth something like .05 division titles, and one is worth 1 WAR over four years. But they’re real effects nonetheless, and they point in the same direction. If Boston is making a baseball decision, trading Mookie Betts doesn’t make sense, even if they get a “fair” return in WAR.
There are, no doubt, many assumptions in this analysis you could question. They probably won’t get a league average right fielder in exchange for Betts; they’ll probably get someone who could be either much better or much worse than that. Maybe they could actually acquire 15 projected WAR in trade, which makes my analysis moot. Maybe there aren’t actually two replacement level outfielders in the system waiting to get better or worse at random. All that could be true. But I stand by my analysis. Trading Betts, even if the cold hard surplus value math balances, doesn’t make sense. The Red Sox should stick to their guns and try to spike a World Series in 2020, then figure out what to do in 2021 later.
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
Set your sights higher than Juan Soto. What about a trade centered around the Astros’ trashcan? What’s your WAR projection for the remaining 7 years of the contract warranty?
Nah. Make a deal with a team with the means to put Dan Shaughnessy on a one-way raft excursion to Cuba. That’s a fair exchange for Mookie’s walk year.
Yep. The money would of course work for Boston. But Soto is a butcher in left. Unless it’s understood that he should get a lot better.
If they wanted to dip below the luxury tax threshold they probably should have thought twice before extending Chris Sale at $30M per year, a deal that he almost certainly would have taken had he reached the free agent market and finished the year healthy. Fans will not, and should not, take kindly to getting rid of the team’s best player because they did things like that less than one year ago.
I mean, this is a team that still has a decent shot of winning one of baseball’s most brutal divisions. It’s one thing if you’re resistant to spending more money right now because you’re not a contender, but if you’re a team that has a visible path to winning the division and you’re thinking about getting rid of your best player to save money, fans have a right to be ticked.
Heck, even if they do get rid of Betts, it’s not guaranteed they’d dip below the tax without getting rid of someone else. If they get rid of Betts and replace him with Bryce Brentz or someone else making the minimum, they’re only projected to be $5M under. If they want to replace him with someone who they think can actually play, like Kole Calhoun, it’s going to put them right back over.
Counterpoint: The Red Sox should absolutely trade Mookie and anyone else they need to get under the luxury tax.
Signed,
Definitely not Brian Cashman’s burner account
This is a good point, and it actually leads to the idea that if they are going to trade Betts, they should trade both Betts AND Sale (and Price if they can) to try to clear out as much money as possible. If it gets them only a smattering of semi-marginal prospects, so be it.
This semi-rebuild by only trading Betts seems unlikely to work.
It is always easy to spend another person’s money, but the Red Sox have lots of it and the tax doesn’t really cost them all that much. They paid less in luxury taxes last year ($12.6M) than they paid Dustin Pedroia. Even if they pay $30M in 2020, that’s like having Chris Sale hurt all year. John Henry is reportedly worth $2.5B.
I think it was you that said “what’s the point of having all that money if you don’t use it?”
It’s complicated, because it’s quite likely that John Henry could spend $12M in a way that would bring him more direct pleasure than paying the luxury tax for baseball players. But also, there’s an implicit agreement between (many) fans and ownership that as long as ownership is looks like they’re trying to win, they’ll overlook all of the other things they dislike about the current state of baseball. I don’t know for certain if the Red Sox would suffer any damage to their brand for trading their best player, at least not immediately, but why is a team like the Red Sox trying to wreck a good thing here? There’s a big psychological difference for fans between trying not to overspend on free agency in the future and cutting costs now.
Maybe this is all talk and the Sox decide to grin and bear the tax for another year, or the new management figures out a way to turn JBJ, JD Martinez and Price or Sale into prospects and sneaks under the LT without touching Betts, but to sadtrombone’s point about damage to the brand, I – a Red Sox fan whose first memory of the team is crying after they were swept in the 1990 ALCS – cannot imagine spending a penny to watch or listen to a Betts-less team next year, not under these circumstances.
If Sale had pitched like expected this year and stayed healthy, then as a free agent he would have basically been like Gerrit Cole except 1.5 years older. He could have gotten $200 million and an AAV over $30 million (I’m thinking 200/6).
His actual contract has deferrals, so for tax purposes it’s $25.6 million per year, and a total of $128 million instead of the announced $145 million.
That’s why I can’t see them just trading Betts. Trading Betts alone wouldn’t really help their situation if they intend to compete next year and play someone “good” in RF to replace him.
For the owners though, why did they sign off on an extension to Sale knowing that they wanted to get under the threshold a year later? The same can be asked about giving Eovaldi a big deal. It’s not like this payroll increase was sneaking up on them, it’s been in the making for years. Just an odd situation.
Hi Ben,
Thanks for the article. It’s pretty apparent that subtracting Betts makes them worse. The question that goes along with it though is:
If ownership hands down the edict that “Thou shall cut payroll”, where should they take it from?
Adam Lallana
Haha, yeah, Liverpool probably wouldn’t notice much.
Unless teams are spooked by the elbow (which it doesn’t sound like they should be), I think they could maybe trade Sale to a team that misses out on Strasburg and Cole. They wouldn’t get a lot back in return (maybe not anything), but he is actually younger than Strasburg and the same price tag that Kiley projected for Strasburg. Yes, this would make them worse for 2020 and probably end their shot of winning the division, but they would dip below the tax line, and clear the books for a run at re-signing Betts which would give them a shot at keeping their best player (who probably will age well) for future runs down the line. And if they don’t keep Betts, they probably won’t need Sale anyway.
This is mostly by default, since Price isn’t going to get moved unless he has a Greinke-like resurgence, Eovaldi will need to rebuild a lot of value, there probably won’t be a lot of suitors for Martinez, and Bradley won’t clear out enough salary to get below the tax line.
But really, the owners should just suck it up and try to win with this current group for a while. Fiscal responsibility can wait until David Price’s contract expires. They’ve got a brand to protect.
If they could get someone like Wander Javier from the Minnesota Twins, then they absolutely should.
Lol, missed you Dusty. You’ll be happy to know that I will not be cutting Wander from my MiLB roster in my dynasty league…even though I probably should 🙂
I just can’t believe baseball is in a place where a perennial contender is seriously considering trading a 27 year old MVP who is the face of the franchise because they want to cut payroll. I just hate it. And while Fangraphs is probably not the place for impassioned critiques of the private equity vulture mentality that seems to be permeating every aspect of business everywhere (RIP Deadspin), I guess I’m just here to yell at clouds and say that I despise it so much. I’m a Cubs fan and Mookie is one of those players that I so envy because he’s just so much fun to watch do everything but pitch in a ball game (kind of like my main man Javy except, you know, better at basically all of it). Maybe I should be ecstatic that a guy like that could potentially go to the Cubs either in trade or next year in FA if he’s available but I just can’t even muster up the enthusiasm to daydream about that because YOU DON’T TRADE MOOKIE BETTS IF YOUR BOSTON AND YOUR GOAL IS TO WIN BASEBALL GAMES. it’s all just so stupid and sad.
/endrant.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
(RIP Deadspin)
Someone get Shirley a megaphone and a horse-drawn cart to wander the streets of Boston.
I’d gladly draw that cart, if I my hoof can grip the pencil.
Just neighing.
A baseball team is a business. It’s always been this way. Heck, Babe Ruth got traded 100 years ago for money.
And look what happened to the Sox when they did that.
Ok, let’s follow this point a bit because I see folks defending these kinds of decisions with the logic that “x sports team is a business” frequently and I just don’t always follow the logic. Sure, it’s a business. But it is not “a business” in the sense that it makes a widget right? It’s an entertainment business whose purpose is to do two and a half things: stay profitable, field a professional baseball team and, if possible, be competitive. Now I don’t want to go off on a huge tangent here about how sports teams also operate on the axis of extensions of municipalities (see: Stadium funding) but any non-cynical point of view should probably acknowledge sports teams aren’t even like normal entertainment businesses. They provide something to cities, they really do. And I believe that. But there’s no good faith reading of modern baseball that leads me to believe owners believe they owe anything to players, fans or anyone else so let’s move on.
They are a business with those two and a half goals. Red Sox are currently valued at $3.2B. John Henry bought the team for $380M. Under any metric the profitability part has been a massive success for the owners of the Red Sox (I would argue at least in part because the team has been so competitive under these owners). So what about their other goal, the one that actually draws people to Fenway and makes them buy jerseys namely fielding a competitive professional baseball team. How does trading Mookie help them do this? It doesn’t. It’s a bad baseball move as this article clearly points out. So here’s the rub: How can fans reconcile an obviously wildly profitable enterprise trading the best player on the team (and becoming a worse actual baseball team) so that they can become slightly more wildly profitable? It’s when us fans becoming armchair GMs who see players as contracts and game pieces is how. Or in the words of this fine piece, the “grim calculus” of turning players into contract dollars.
In short, I get what you are saying. Baseball is a business. But that doesn’t make any of this any less grim, sad and dispiriting. And it doesn’t mean fans should have to like it.
/endrant2
The better rejection of “it’s a business” is that that’s only from the players and owner’s POV. We are customers.
If McDonald’s decides to suddenly start using urinal cakes instead of hamburgers to cut costs, nobody says “well, hey, it’s a business.” If a doctor’s office decides to replace their nurses with “draw your own blood” kiosks, nobody says “Well, they gotta make a profit, ” Yes it is, and yes they do, but that ain’t the customer’s problem.
Insert standard “take away the monopoly protections granted by congress” rant here.
Great response. Shitty product is…shitty. Better response then mine done in 1/4th the words.
If McDs starts using urinal cakes instead of hamburgers, people stop buying their hamburgers.
If you want to call this the exact same thing as that scenario (might be a bit fat-fetched), then stop buying the Red Sox, Betts, and/or MLB.
Because the talk is so irrational – so completely odds with everything the Red Sox have done philosophically since Henry took over 17 years ago – I have a hard time believing it’s for real. But if it happens, if they trade the best Red Sox player of my lifetime, the best Red Sox player since Carl Freaking Yastrzemski, to pinch a few more million dollars out of an insanely profitable business, I will indeed stop buying the Red Sox, which at this point in my life, means no longer buying MLB.
Well, there’s a pretty big difference between feeding people poison, and trading a player. Let’s restrict the hyperbolic metaphors to comparing Wander Franco to our lord and savior, please.
First shirley, I want to say I’m mostly on your side. A decent organization decided to trade a superstar with a year left seems… baffling and sad for MLB.
But there are many other intricacies at play.
1.) They’ve got some serious cash tied up in some pieces that DON’T make a lot of sense. Hindsight is 20/20, but I imagine less than 6 months after the ink was dry, the Red Sox (even DD) would say the Price, Eovaldi, & Sale contracts were mistakes. Taking even ONE of those out of the equation and I bet “trade Betts” isn’t even a search on Google.
2.) The Red Sox have got money to spend and they have shown previously, they will spend it. The luxury tax (salary cap, let’s just call it that) makes it cost prohibitive. If this wasn’t in place and didn’t act as a deterrent the way it is, these small market teams would have zero chance. We can only point to one small market WS winner in the past 10 years (KC) and maybe another 1 or 2 WS participants (TB & Cle.) It might suck in certain situations, but without this it takes the fun out of it for a lot more baseball fans. A lot.
3.) Mookie has openly said he wants to test FA. It doesn’t mean he hates the city, the team, or anything, but, as a business, the Red Sox have the most leverage on his services now as opposed to July ’20 or next offseason. They can’t just ignore those factors and pretend it’s all going to work out.
Like I said, I’m with you mostly, but there are a few points in this situation that need to be added to the entire equation.
FWLIW, thank GOODNESS Sale finally got paid. Sucks if you’re a Red Sox fan, but the dude deserved a huge payday after that initial contract. Think of it as the Sox banking some good baseball karma.
Well as we’re seeing more and more clearly, the goal is to make as much profit as possible, winning is a nice side benefit and that’s all. It’s thoroughly depressing and I couldn’t agree more.
So the Red Sox are faced with the prospect of trading their best player for financial reasons?
And? Yes, it’s more or less newforBoston, but other non-Yankee trams have been there before without quite as much angst. And many of those weren’t facing self-inflicted financial disasters.
Can we expect a similar piece on Lindor?
Two huge differences with Lindor:
1. He has two years of control left, so there’s potentially a bigger return in a trade.
2. Lindor’s current team is at a higher level of cheapness…to the extent that they didn’t extend Michael Freaking Brantley a QO last offseason. Which may have been the difference between the post-season and no post-season.
3- They’ve done it before.
Like it or not, teams have budget limits, self-imposed or not.
GM’s need to work within those limits; fans and pundits don’t.
Boston hired Dombrowski because he does his best work building for the present. Andhe gave them exactly that.
The present is over and now they have to deal with the future, which is where they stand, trying to keep as good a team as possible while dealing with their budget and contracts.
Back to Cleveland: they already realigned their payroll and farm last offseason.
And, while they fell short of the playoffs they found one regular OF (better than none) and three new starters to work with. They took the hit that Boston is looking at and look to remain competitive.
Lindor?
My guess is that barring a return of two good young major leaguers they will keep him for 2020 and barring a collapse in 2020 will start (and probably finish) 2021 with him.
How far this gets them actually depends on the returns of their recent manuevers, particularly Reyes. If he is everything they think, the multiyear outcome will be what passes for success in Cleveland: years of competitive teams.
They already paid the price for 2-3 years of “success”, now it’s Boston’s turn.
Maybe they find a taker for Sale or Price or trade Betts or go with a $250-260 payroll but whichever way they go it’s going to hurt.
Even more because the Yankees managed the trick with minimal pain and can go spend and still meet *their* budget.
I don’t really know what Cleveland is planning on doing with Lindor, but he should fetch a dramatically higher return than Betts. You could see them asking for Corey Seager and Gavin Lux in return, and they might even get it.
I love Francisco Lindor; he’s the best shortstop in baseball. But let’s be real here. There is zero chance Friedman makes that trade.
He probably wouldn’t, but it’s a fair ask. Going from a 3-4 win player to a 5-6 win player is a huge difference–definitely worth an FV60.
In related news, this is probably why a fair deal isn’t going to happen. The teams that have the stockpile of talent that would take to get Lindor got to that point by not trading those young guys away. It’s not clear what a team could offer Cleveland without them taking a huge step back for next year, and it’s hard to think of what team would actually do something crazy like give up a 3-4 win player (over the same contract length) and another guy who looks like a guy who can start now and is a potential superstar down the road. Either Cleveland is going to take a huge step back in 2020 or a deal isn’t happening.
Steamer projects Seager to be worth 4.2 WAR next season, and for Lindor to be worth 5.8 WAR. Assuming similar projections for 2021, then Lindor would be a 3.2 WAR upgrade over the next two years compared to Seager. Using the 8 million/per WAR figure cited in the article above, that comes out to about 25.5 million in surplus value.
A consensus top 5-10 prospect is worth considerably more than 25.5 million. Based on the Prospect Value article Ben used, Gavin Lux (a 60 grade position player) should be worth around 55 million dollars. So if the Dodgers made this trade they would be overpaying by roughly 30 million.
These calculations also don’t take into account the difference in Lindor and Seager’s salaries (as Lindor should make considerably more in arbitration) which only furthers the disparity.
Like I said, Lindor is amazing. But he isn’t going to command Seager and Lux.
Cleveland isn’t taking a step back: the clock is ticking on Kluber and Carrasco and they haven’t signed Clevinger to an extension. He may not want to. They would need an immediate payback to move Lindor.
Why would a less good player get a dramatically higher return?
Leaving the specifics of this situation aside, the general answer to your question is: “because contract terms matter”
Sorry, while I can see Cleveland do that trade I can’t quite see tbe current FA going for it.
Not like tbat.
Now, if there were other players (on both sides), say Hand, Pederson, and a couple minor leaguers (AA from LA, A-ball from Cleveland) then maybe somethingcoukd be structured.
But those are dangerous deals and it requires LA to bet against Lux.
Any Lindor deal is going to be dangerous for Cleveland even if it is a clear overpay.
No. No no no. No. NO.
This appears to be the general reaction here to my argument on this topic.
“Betts’ 6.6 WAR projection is worth $52.8 million. If Betts earns his projected arbitration salary of $27.7 million, that works out to $25 million in surplus value.”
Well that depends on whether the Red Sox are over the luxury tax after keeping Betts. If we make the HUGE assumption that Keep Betts = Over Luxury Tax and Trade Betts = Under Luxury Tax, then Betts cost would be $28M + the 50% tax on on overages. Say the tax is $15M. Then Betts is “costing” $43M plus the “draft cost” of moving back 10 picks which lets ballpark at $4M. The total “cost” comes out to $47M, leaving only $6M in surplus value.
$ per WAR has always seemed to be an iffy way to analyze these situations.
$ per WARreally how much one may need to spend on FAs to gain that many WAR.
It does not represent revenue or $ value to a franchise. The Red Sox are not earning “surplus value” on Betts because of WAR.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it is a horrible idea to trade Betts to come in under an arbitrary self-imposed budget, but Henry would probably save money by doing so, at least in the short run.
You can’t attribute the total luxury tax overage to Betts though. There is an entire roster of players contributing towards the tax and each player should hypothetically bear a portion of the overage. You can just as easily make your same assumption for Sale, Price, etc.
You also have to think about Betts’ value from the perspective of interested teams. Those teams won’t ding Betts’ value for the Sox luxury tax overage, so why would the Red Sox ‘artificially’ reduce his value to move him when the other party should be willing to pony up full value? It would be horrible negotiating for the Red Sox to let other teams leverage their lux tax position in a deal for Betts.
It’s a shame because ownership put themselves in this position. DD was certainly a contributor and bears partial responsibility, but ownership ultimately signed off on every single one of the deals the team made. The only ways ownership can come out of this situation without looking bad is if they either keep Betts or hit an absolute home run in the eventual trade for a guy who goes on to put up 4 WAR seasons.
You can’t…but then he is likely the single biggest difference maker,budget-wise.
Moving Price or Sale alone won’t do the trick.
Moving Price would ABSOLUTELY do the trick. The issue is in order to move that contract the Red Sox would have to either
A) Take on a large portion of the money owed
B) Take on another equally bad contract( A Price-Myers swap is a common suggestion)
C) Include a player with extreme positive value to offset the Price contract. There is a reason packaging Betts + Price has been mentioned. But the number of contending team that can come close to affording adding $60M in payroll in 2020 includes the Braves,…uhh…..maybe the Nationals, the Angels, or Padres.
D) A combination of the above. Say Betts + Price for Cespedes + Nimmo or Betts + Price for McCutchen or Betts + Price + $ for Fowler + Reyes…… Maybe a weird swap of say Betts + Price for Heyward, Ian Happ, Schwarber, and a prospect.
” DD was certainly a contributor and bears partial responsibility, but ownership ultimately signed off on every single one of the deals the team made”
The Price deal is an albatross. The Eovaldi deal isn’t great, but wasn’t THAT much of an overpay in AAV(I probably would have went 3/$36M or so). The Sale extension was for below market value. The JD Martinez deal is fine. Xander’s extension is a steal.
The issue is the COMPLETE deadweight. Rusney Castillo is making $14.5M in AAA(God knows why the Red Sox haven’t eaten $13M and sent him to be a starter for Miami/Detroit). And Pedroia is making $13M after practically having a knee replacement. Without those 2 contracts, the Red Sox would be several million UNDER the $208M luxury tax threshold. If they dealt JBJ, they would even have a little money to play with.
A lot of it is just timing. The Cubs are in a similar spot. Replace Betts with Bryant, Price with Heyward, and Eovaldi with Kimbrel….pretty much the same situation.
Castillo doesn’t apply to the luxury tax limit since he had options and could be stashed in the minors.
You aren’t comparing apples to apples. Getting rid of Betts isn’t the only move the Sox can make to stay under the tax. Theoretically, you would have to make the same assumption about any player that would put/keep them over the cap, and thereby would end up beholden to the same math rules you use above.
This simply has to be posturing by the Red Sox brass.
(Please, pleeeeease let it just be posturing :-\ )
They’re taking all this flack as posturing?
What? To get Betts to take an extension?
I’m a Yankees fan and even I don’t want them to trade Betts. This move just feels anti-competitive. It’s like playing an intense boardgame against someone who is only half-heartedly invested. Whether I win or lose, I’m not going to feel as good if they’re trolling through youtube videos while it’s my turn.
That boardgame analogy is Meg-level brilliant!!
One must consider that “competitive” means different things on a 1-year vs. long-term timeline
Jesus.
If anything, they should be exploring an NBA-style salary dump trade on guys like Price and Eovaldi before they dump Mookie for salary tax reasons.
or a repeat of the adrian gonzalez/carl crawford move to LAD of years past
Um, that’s generally referred to as the “Punto trade.” Please try to keep up.
There aren’t too many large market teams that come in under new ownership with the directive, “We want MLB regulars at whatever cost”
That LA-Boston trade will never happen again.
Preach!
It’s odd to see so many see a potential trade as a “way to save money” and not a way to ensure they get the best possible return for an impossible to replace player when he walks after this season. If it is hard to replace Mookie Betts after this season imagine how difficult it will be if they lose him for nothing other than a low value draft pick.
For instance, they could trade him for two now players like Jonathan Villar (last arb year) and Trey Mancini (3 arb years) immediately replacing half of the lost Betts WAR and then use the $15M in 2020 savings to pay down most of the first year for a non-top of market starting pitcher in free agency.
This likely replaces all of the lost WAR for this season while giving them a stick they can control at a position of need, the good arm they need more than anything, and a nice player in Villar who might warrant a Qualifying Offer with another very good year.
The Orioles then flip Betts for the best prospect package they can get that would likely be greater than what they would get from trading Villar and Mancini either separately or in a package deal.
Right. Just like the Angels should have traded Trout heading into last season!
The Sox don’t have to lose him.
It’s not like this is even a Robbie Cano situation, where Cash matched the dollars but not the years – Mookie will be three years younger than Robbie was at the time.
The player has stated multiple times that he cannot wait to get to free agency where the entire market can bid on his services. I cannot blame him, if I were Mookie I would be excited to go take the biggest deal I can take, and especially so if it means I get out of that city. Fans are hopeful he will come back, but it is clouding them from the cold reality that that will only be the case if the team gives him the largest offer. That seems doubtful after the multiple slaps in the face offered by the club.
He deserves better. The popular decision and the correct one rarely meet. As a fan of a rival I hope beyond hope they don’t trade him and then lose him for essentially nothing after the season. They’ll be worse for it in the long term, and there is nothing better than watching Red Sox fans turn on their own as has happened with every single player that took the money and ran.
Oh, I’m a Yankees fan (and one who adores Mookie, at that).
I want the dude to get PAID. I’m just pointing out that the Red Sox have absolutely no excuse not to keep him, even with their luxury tax issues.
Another point I have to bring up. Mookie is worth far more to Boston because of Fenway’s RF than WAR even accounts for. They don’t have a special positional adjustment for RFers while playing in Fenway. And you need a very good CF in Fenway’s RF if you care about defense whatsoever. I had to laugh at Pete Abraham’s article where he has Clint Frazier playing RF for the Red Sox.
One would obviously put Frazier in left and move Benintendi to right, correct?
As a lifelong Red Sox fan I think I might abandon ship if they trade Betts… Getting a player like Betts is literally the point of all this. He is a young superstar (“superstar” may be understating things… He is pretty undeniably a top 2 or 3 position player, and is one year removed from being literally the best player in the league) that everyone loves – pretty much the perfect guy to build your team around. This is someone ANY team in the league should be willing to shell out for, let alone a team that has, for all intents and purposes, a bottomless budget. It is almost sickening to think that the Red Sox would trade him just to save a few bucks in the near term. I keep hoping someone from within the organization will come out and put these “Red Sox may trade Betts” headlines to bed once and for all, but more and more keep popping up. Baseball is awesome, but also sometimes… Sometimes baseball sucks.
I came here to say almost exactly all of this, PLUS I may have to change my user name.
What on earth is the point of being the freaking Boston Red Sox if you can’t keep Mookie Betts?
We may as well just pack it in.
The whole Mookie saga is an incredibly grim indictment of MLB’s self-imposed austerity. Letting him walk next year would’ve been one thing; actively making a good team worse in 2020 because the owners of one of MLB’s marquee franchises want to save a few million dollars is really grim. I know this is a business, but this is so cynical.
A few million here, a few million there…pretty soon it adds up to real money.
Which is exactly how Dombrowski got them here.
The Sale contract timing was dubious and tbe Eovaldi deal even more and tbe Sox would love do-overs but it’s too late.
What we’re seeing is why tbese days even big budget teams try to maintain *some* financial flexibility, even if just by arranging a staggered contract expiration sequens or paying more for option years.
Sometimes tbe surefire guy doesn’t quite fire.
That’s kinda my point, though: Dombrowski won a World Series! That’s the “here” he brought them to! It says something about the league that his tenure isn’t considered an unqualified success because he left one of the highest-revenue teams in MLB in the luxury tax.
Trading Betts makes no sense for a team that’s trying to win. As we all know. But the problem with saying “this is why you have players like Betts” are ignoring that he’s already said he wants to go to free agency. And if that’s the case, I doubt very seriously that he wouldn’t just go right back to Boston, if they’re offering the most money/best terms. The Yankees basically did it with Aroldis Chapman, there’s no reason it couldn’t happen with Betts.
I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do, or the best way to handle the situation, but if you’re the Red Sox, would it make sense to trade him to the Dodgers for something like Keibert Ruiz and Alex Verdugo (not that the Dodgers would do that, but just as a suggestion), help your team significantly in the long run with two young players, get under the luxury tax, AND still have the chance to sign him after the year? I’m sure there will be ways for them to clear payroll after 2020 and be able to offer him a massive deal.
It still probably doesn’t make sense since the Red Sox should win 90+ games next year, but is there a reasonable baseball move to be made that gets the Red Sox two young players who could contribute significantly in the next year+? It seems possible to me. I do know that, as a Dodgers fan, if Mookie Betts was on my team and had a year left, I’d want them to do everything possible to sign him, but if he wants to go to free agency there’s really nothing you can do about it.
Anything less than Jason Belmonte in return will be a brutal disappointment.
I don’t think the Sox should be trading Mookie (or tearing the core down in general), but I think this methodology doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, because it seems very unlikely that a large market team would attempt no replacement for a walk year Betts if they can’t keep him long term. Letting Betts walk doesn’t prohibit them from signing some boringly stable lower tier FA. If that guy’s in his thirties, he hardly costs anything in the market of recent offseason.
Like, I’d be shocked if Boston got less than 2 WAR total from a position across three consecutive years. They tolerate a failure to replace Mookie for three whole years? It’s not the Giants’ outfield.
I’m having a problem with the expectations that the Red Sox would be replacing Betts in the lineup with just 1.65 WAR, for goodness sales, an average position player is a 2 WAR guy! So for the haul you get nice excess value in a FV50 to expect perhaps 2-4 WAR over their first 4 years, a FV45 perhaps gives you average Major Leaguer, but at a cheap price, and the FV40 may pan out higher or be a role player worth a spot. One year with Betts and a qualifying offer gives you a compensation pick equivalent to perhaps a FV45 but 4 years away from helping the big club anyway. I say take the deal.
I think the problem is that you don’t know that a “50 FV” refers to a someone projected to be “an average position player.”
I saw the article for WAR that had this chart
Scrub 0-1 WAR
Role Player 1-2 WAR
Solid Starter 2-3 WAR
Good Player 3-4 WAR
All-Star 4-5 WAR
Superstar 5-6 WAR
MVP 6+ WAR
Could someone help clarify the 1.65 WAR per year return?
this is my question too… I think he divided Betts 6.6 WAR projection by 4 and got 1.65 WAR. Not sure that’s a really good way to project Betts return.
Just a point of clarification. Have the Sox ever said they plan To or would consider trading Betts? All they’ve said is they would like not to pay the luxury tax, right ? Presumably the unspoken clause is “while staying in contention for a playoff spot “
Why has everyone gone to “Mookie has to be traded “?
They’d be crazy to trade him
Ben: Hit piece or not, Dan Shaughnessy comes to the same conclusion as you do. Keep Mookie.