We Adjusted Several Prospects’ Rankings
The two of us recorded a podcast during which we combed through our Futures Game notes. This announced update to THE BOARD is that discussion made real on the site. All of the guys with new FVs are noted below, along with brief notes on why their FVs changed. If a player moved within their FV tier, there is a stock up or stock down arrow on THE BOARD. The updates noted here don’t include players who have been added to our rankings and went from 35 FV to 35+ FV, since that happens pretty often. We’re also fully updated to reflect recent trades. Lastly, if you’d like to see who is set to graduate from the list next, check the right sidebar on the FG Prospects homepage. And remember to follow @FG_prospects on Twitter for live BOARD updates.
Moved Up
Jo Adell, CF, Angels and Bo Bichette, INF, Toronto Blue Jays (60 FV to 65 FV):
Both move up due to increased confidence that they’ll be stars, with the ZiPS updates Kiley received for the Trade Value Series also helping. Adell seems fully recovered from a scary ankle and hamstring injury suffered during spring training, and he’s hitting .376/.442/.673 as a 20-year-old at Double-A. Bichette has a 116 wRC+ as a 21-year-old at Triple-A and Toronto seems inclined to leave him at shortstop.
Yordan Alvarez, DH, Astros (50 FV to 55 FV):
Alvarez is generating huge power with ease and comfort. Houston’s handling of his playing time while the team was in Colorado is an indication that he’ll offer no defensive value while his skillset is that of an older player, but his offensive tools are a cut above some of this year’s more productive DHs.
Drew Waters, CF, Braves (50 FV to 55 FV):
Waters continues to rake as a young-for-the-league, up-the-middle prospect, and while the .459 BABIP isn’t sustainable, scouts are split on him vs. Cristian Pache long-term, so they’re a little closer on our list now.
Nate Pearson, RHP, Blue Jays (50 FV to 55 FV):
Pearson belongs in the same FV tier as Sixto Sanchez as they each have monster stuff, questionable builds, and no track record of pitching for a full season.
Alek Thomas, CF, Diamondbacks 45+ FV to 50 FV):
Thomas is hitting .309/.390/.488 in the Midwest League while being close in age to most of the high schoolers in the 2019 draft. His Futures Game batting practice session cemented our confidence that the unexpected uptick in power is for real.
Grayson Rodriguez, RHP, Orioles (45+ FV to 50 FV):
Rodriguez has developed a changeup pretty quickly and has closed the gap in technical skill and pitchability that caused us to slot him behind fellow 2018 draftees Cole Winn and Matthew Liberatore.
Jhoan Duran, RHP, Twins (45 FV to 50 fV):
Duran’s velo is up, with the right-hander sitting 95-99 now. The secondaries are good, as is the frame. He’s athletic, and strike throwing has improved but is still just okay. He could continue to rise if that aspect turns a corner, which is possible given Duran’s grace and body control.
Josiah Gray, RHP, Dodgers (45+ FV to 50 FV):
Gray’s command has taken a leap. Remember that this is a small college conversion arm who may just be scratching the surface of his talent.
Nate Lowe, 1B, Rays (45+ FV to 50 FV):
He’s 24 and, like Pete Alonso, has a bigger build that often hits the decline phase earlier, but he keeps raking at Triple-A and we’ve seen the power in person and think it’s enough to play every day at first.
Xavier Edwards, 2B, Padres (45+ FV to 50 FV):
Edwards has one of the lowest swinging strike rates in the minors and he’s a high-end athlete and competitor who plays a premium position. We doubt he ever hits for power but he’ll still be a dynamic leadoff man.
Brice Turang, SS, Brewers (45+ FV to 50 FV):
Turang is a slick defensive shortstop with strong on base skills. Those have been a constant for Turang, though his bat has not. The skillset and inconsistencies are very reminiscent of early J.P. Crawford reports.
Brennen Davis, CF, Cubs (45 FV to 45+ FV):
Davis has improved his timing and comfort at the plate, and while his swing still has an awkward, abbreviated finish, he’s shown unexpectedly good bat control and flashes of impact opposite field power.
Tyler Freeman, SS, Indians (45 FV to 45+ FV):
Freeman has second-division physical ability but his contact rates are special and he plays up the middle. Four of the 10 lowest swinging strike rates in the minors belong to Cleveland prospects.
Ryan Rolison, LHP, Rockies (45 FV to 45+ FV):
The fastball command issues that plagued Rolison at Ole Miss seems to have been exorcised, and his changeup has improved.
Alexander Canario, RF, Giants (45 FV to 45+ FV):
Canario mashed his way out of the AZL, finally supporting a toolset we loved (mostly the bat speed, which is plus plus) with some on-field performance.
Kris Bubic, LHP, Royals (40+ FV to 45 FV):
Bubic’s velo is better than it was during his draft year and so is his command. He still has only a 45 breaking ball but lefties with changeups tend to pan out.
Diego Cartaya, C, Dodgers (40+ FV to 45 FV):
Cartaya’s taken to a pro strength and conditioning program and has started to separate himself from other 2018 July 2 signees.
Gabriel Moreno, C, Blue Jays (40 FV to 40+ FV):
We advise that readers take offensive performances at Lansing with a grain of salt, but Moreno is an athletic catcher with plus contact skills and we felt he belonged in the same FV tier as Phillies backstop prospect Rafael Marchan, who has a nearly identical skillset.
Moved Down
Forrest Whitley, RHP, Astros (65 FV to 60 FV):
Purely on stuff, Whitley’s still in a tier of his own among prospects, but injuries and poor performance slid him down a half grade.
Sixto Sanchez, RHP, Marlins (60 FV to 55 FV):
Sanchez belongs in the 60 FV tier on stuff but injuries and the way he’s developed physically and athletically made us think there should be a clear line between him and the McKay/Gore/May/Whitley tier.
Taylor Trammell, LF, Reds (60 FV to 55 FV):
We’re less confident that Trammell can pull balls with power and that’s more essential in a corner outfield spot.
Luiz Gohara, LHP, Braves (50 FV to 45+ FV):
The Braves were conservative with Soroka’s shoulder issues and he’s come out the other side looking great, but Gohara has been down for longer than we initially expected, so he had to drop a bit until we find out the extent of the injury.
Jarren Duran, CF, Red Sox (45+ FV to 45 FV):
We thought Duran might be on a trajectory to end up on the Top 100 by year’s end, but our Futures Game look led to some questions on the offensive upside, so we think he settles in this range.
Seuly Matias, RF, Royals (45+ FV to 45 FV):
The strikeouts are piling up and becoming a problem, so we need to lower expectations a bit.
Shervyen Newton, 3B, Mets (45+ FV to 45 FV):
Contact and timing issues have undermined Newton’s offensive potential all year, but now it has been long enough to adjust him down a bit.
Victor Victor Mesa, CF, Marlins (45+ FV to 40+ FV):
We didn’t go to 50 FV on Mesa as an amateur due to the hit tool concerns some scouts had and it’s been much worse than expected.
Owen White, RHP, Rangers (45 FV to 40+ FV):
Another of the Rangers’ arms to get TJ that we forgot to move when he went under the knife before he played a pro game.
Kevin Smith, SS, Blue Jays (45 FV to 40 FV):
We juiced him up last year from 40 to 45 FV when his power and shortstop ability were joined by some contact skills, but that contact ability has regressed in his first taste of Double-A.
Yordan Alvarez fouled a ball off his knee prior to the Colorado series. You may be right that he’ll offer no defensive value, but injury played a factor in not playing him.
Royce Lewis is still number 2?
A .283 OBP in 345 at bats in A+ is not good….
Agreed, is it me or does the top 10 in general seem rather weak than in recent years. Besides Franco, none of the top 10 scream superstar to me compared to just the 2018 list.
Adell’s 219 wRC+ in Double-A as a barely 20-year-old doesn’t impress you?
It did seem stronger last year, but neuroaccountant is right–Adell has huge star potential. But I’m less enthused by Bichette and Lewis. Last year at this time, Tatis, Jimenez, and Robles were all there in addition to Vlad Jr.–all of whom seemed like likely stars. So that’s 4 probable stars instead of 2.
There are also questions about whether Lewis can stick at SS…
I would be curious to hear Eric and Kiley’s take on Luis Robert. The guy has been white-hot and has tons of tools, so I’m wondering if they think his bat control is still an issue. I’m pretty skeptical of him being a star, but I’m starting to wonder now if that’s the right call.
It’s fun seeing him hit the AAA baseball. First hit 110 mph grand slam and then another 428 ft.
The 31mph sprint speed to first at the futures game was also fun.
Eric Davis 2.0?
That would probably be the best case scenario for him, offensively. He was incredible for about 3-4 years, before injuries ruined him.
Also, let’s hope that Luis Robert doesn’t have to deal with lacerated kidneys and cancer during his playing career.
His best case scenario is eric davis? I guess everyone else is watching a different player than I have been watching.
Eric Davis, at his peak, was a guy putting up a 140-150 wRC+ and an absolute terror on the basepaths. That’s pretty good!
Yeah, but why tie him to Davis as a compliment? Short peak?
I think his best case outcome is top 5 player in baseball.
Forget about the injuries and short peak…. obviously thats not what I’m basing this on.
Before injuries Davis had one of the best power/speed combinations in baseball history. Read what players thought of him, he was a freak. When trying to think of power/speed guys who have a similar approach to Robert, Davis comes to mind. Top of the scale speed with plus plus power is Roberts ceiling which is peak Davis.
Maybe a faster Justin Upton or Adam Jones would be a better comp?
Davis also had some strikeout issues, too, which is why he’s such a good comp. He was actually kind of a 3-true-outcomes guy before it was cool. So the best case scenario is that Robert learns to take a walk in addition to shredding the ball and basepaths. If not, he’s more like Javier Baez or Bo Jackson offensively (he could be either the league-average hitting version or the one that turned star-level seasons).
I don’t know anything about Robert’s defense though, so I can’t compare that to Davis or anyone else. And of course, prospects with “limited bat control” could always wind up as those big-raw-power low-OBP types. His worst-case scenario there is probably Preston Tucker.
The consensus seems to be that he’s at least average to above average at the moment. His speed makes up for being raw on reads. There was a joke in spring training that Robert needs to learn how to not play the entire OF himself (I wouldn’t mind more coverage in LF).
With more reps in the US, MLB coaching, and him being an awesome athlete I would bet on Luis being a decent CF. His arm is also plus.
He might be the fastest guy in baseball with Buxton; his ft/second was better than Buxton in the futures game. His speed will save him from a ton of issues or shortcomings.
Robert has the loudest tools I’ve seen a baseball player have in a long time. 80 grade speed, 60+ power, 50-60 field, 60+ arm, and a 40-50 bat at the moment.
Robert is faster than most analysts give him credit for. He needs to work on his reads but ability wise his speed is at the top of the scale.
I like the Eric Davis (healthy) ceiling, his floor maybe a stuggling Buxton with a little more hit and a step behind on D.
Ok, awesome work. This has been bothering for a while, though. Bubic is pronounced like “boob itch,” right? I can’t think of any other way to say that name. If so, I gotta get that guy on my fantasy teams now for all the puns
Seems like Eric & Kiley are too high on Nick Solak at an FV50 as well, given that he was traded to the Rangers for Peter Fairbank, an FV40 reliever, who in fairness does throw 97 and K’s a lot of people but trades that off with giving up a lot of home runs. I suspected Solak at 24yo was rated too high and I think his trade reflects the industry thought on his value more than the logjam of 2-war infielders that the Rays have.
People said this same thing about the Yankees shed long trade just because they got back a person who was rated as a lower fv, and I don’t get it. The fvs are not immutable characteristics, nor are they so fixed that individual teams would have internal rankings fully consistent with those posted here. I don’t think the takeaway from a trade like that is “the rankings were wrong!” It’s “team A preferred player X over player Y”
It’s the old economists’ joke about a $10 bill in the street not really existing. 28 teams teams could have given up an FV45 and still profited by getting a supposed-FV50 in Solak. That they didn’t should tell us something about his perceived value, no?
I think Solak’s being 24 years old was also a tell that FV50 over-estimated his value. I know Eric & Kiley probably balanced his “too-old” with lower risk compared to a higher-ceiling/lower-floor 20-year-old, but that does ding his value.
Also I think where the prospect currently plays factors in too. You don’t want to overrate a prospect in A ball by FV because if a prospect is any good, he’ll go well in A ball so you should be more conservative with those prospects. So with Stowers, who has only been in A ball should be ranked lower than Long, a guy about to make the majors would be
The Rays probably think they’re getting in before he shows what he’s capable of. But IMO if that’s what’s going on, the Rays may just be too smart for their own good. There’s a reason why relief-only prospects with multiple TJ surgeries and who have barely pitched in the minors aren’t more sought after.
Bryan Mata you still have as a 40. I have him as a 55. He reminds me a lot of Soroka with less command but better velocity and movement. Soroka was also under ranked a ton. Mata is 20.2 in AA. 6-3 220. Throws 94-98. Four pitch mix although only 3 are good. My grades…Fastball 60 Cutter-55 Curve-55 Change up-45. Great ground ball rates[63.4% 5th in the minors] and very good FIPs[3.21-3.16]. A Swinging Strike% of 16.8% in AA which would lead AA if he qualified[only 15 innings]. K’s and groundball combo’s are often under rated.
There are 3 negatives. He has had some health issues, although getting to AA at barely 20 and being very healthy now lessens those concerns. His throwing motion is a touch odd. Although I would not say it screams reliever to me or injury either. Just a bit short army. And his command can leave him at times, especially last year. However, he was growing into his body last year.
I completely do not understand a 40 with this guy. Its not like he is completely under the radar. He has made the futures game. The age-level yells look at me.
I find your analysis compelling, but the lead-in is perhaps a bit too dismissive of Eric and Kiley’s work. They probably just didn’t get to him yet.
Bubic moving up makes sense, he’s just been so dominant in pro ball so far.
We’ll see how he does in AA, the stop where Royals pitchers have been made or broken. Wilmington is a pitcher heaven mostly but Northwest Arkansas is a change in skill level and environment.
Mike Montgomery
19yo in A+: 2.25 ERA 2.44 FIP
20yo in A+: 1.09 ERA 1.23 FIP
20yo in AA: 3.47 ERA 3.98 FIP
21yo in AAA: 5.32 ERA 4.88 FIP
21yo in AA: 6.67 ERA 5.69 FIP
John Lamb (suffered through injuries so not just change in skill level)
19yo in A+: 1.45 ERA 1.90 FIP
19yo in AA: 5.45 ERA 3.88 FIP
20yo in AA: 3.09 ERA 4.43 FIP
Chris Dwyer
22yo in A+: 2.99 ERA 2.92 FIP
22yo in AA: 3.06 ERA 4.12 FIP
23yo in AA: 5.60 ERA 4.67 FIP
24yo in AA: 5.25 ERA 5.28 FIP
Foster Griffin
21yo in A+: 2.86 ERA 2.85 FIP
21yo in AA: 3.61 ERA 4.14 FIP
22yo in AA: 5.13 ERA 4.41 FIP
We’ve seen it a bit with Singer so far
22yo in A+: 1.87 ERA 2.82 FIP (57 IP)
22yo in AA: 5.80 ERA 5.21 FIP (35 IP)
Kowar has been better in AA than A+
22yo in A+: 3.53 ERA 3.61 FIP (74 IP)
22yo in AA: 1.61 ERA 2.75 FIP (22 IP)
It’s not surprising AA is tougher than A+ but I just wonder if anything below AA for Royals pitchers (given Wilmington) doesn’t carry a lot of value.
On Yordan Alvarez, not trying to pile on — we all miss things and that’s the fun of it — but I still strain to understand the references to his defense as justifying his low rankings. Vlad Jr.’s defense has also been quite questionable; from all I read he’s at best a 1Bman and much more likely a DH (per Keith Law’s latest chat, for example). That’s no surprise and yet, that said, Vlad Jr was still rated as the top prospect (or top 3) by consensus. Hitting matters…a lot. Vlad Jr. hasn’t quite hit yet, but the WAR rates of other huge bat/poor gloves (Alonso/3.5; Alvarez/1.4 in very limited time) indicate that sluggers provide a ton of value even if they don’t field well.
Not saying Alvarez has the hitting future that Vlad Jr. does. But I had and still have real difficulty understanding the consistency of an analytic framework that downplayed Alvarez so dramatically and yet kept Vlad Jr at the top of the pile. Can you explain (and, again, really not trying to play a ‘gotcha’ game here — I’m genuinely curious).
Scouts don’t see Alvarez as “athletic” or “explosive”. Vlad Jr definitely seems to have a bit more of that to his game, just subjectively, but I can’t pin it down more than that either.
I’ve kind of been of the mind that we should ignore that nagging voice that tags Alvarez as “lethargic” in light of his huge power and performance, and think he should definitely be somewhere on this list–honestly much higher than even here. But I don’t think people are going to be sold on Alvarez until he’s done this for about 600 PAs in the bigs.
also love all their work but thought they were low on alvarez, but in reference to vlad/alvarez, a few things, vlads 2 years younger, got hof bloodlines, struck out way less, and bad 3b defense is more valuable than bad lf/1b defense, alvarez ops was 900+ last year vlads was over a thousand, again just my opinion as i had the same sort of thoughts but alot of things start breaking vlads way the more you dig
Thanks, and all good points from you and sadtrombone (whose handle makes me sad. 🙂 ). Just to be clear I’m not saying Alvarez should be considered Vlad’s equal. Just seems the defense penalty to which Alvarez was subject seems awfully steep in comparison to Vlad’s.
(1) Prospect gurus, like many people, are reluctant to adjust their initial assessment and often lag changing evidence. Vlad Jr. signed for 3.9 M as the son of an all-star whose hit and power tools were already being touted as the best for a 16-yr-old in quite some time. Alvarez was no slouch as a signing – $2 M – but was already 19.
(2) Prospect gurus over-value age relative to performance to the extent they miss those who are exceptions. While it’s true that this correlation exists, it’s also true some player are still climbing towards their ceiling at a later age than others.
(3) Alvarez had some challenges adjusting to his first expose to high-A, and a year later, AAA. He wasn’t bad but was closer to league average; and his progressed was slowed by an injury.
(4) When Alvarez exploded this year, most gurus were slow to adjust.
Don’t know what Luis Robert has to do to rise above a 55. He’s a ridiculously toolsy CF who is finally healthy and ripped apart A+, AA, and hasn’t exactly slowed down in AAA 20 plate appearances in. MLB Pipeline, BP, and KLaw all have him in the top 5 for good reason.
As long as we’re talking about prospects who sit in different tiers, I am a little surprised that Casey Mize is sitting at an FV60 and Manning is sitting at a FV55. Mize is good, but I love Manning’s stuff, he has the same FIP, and is about half a year younger but at the same level as Mize. I think Manning might be the best pitching prospect in the game right now, although if you pushed me on it I’d probably pick Mackenzie Gore instead.
Debating things like prospect rankings is what Fangraphs is all about. Whether it’s the Hot Stove League or the Cool Air-Conditioner League seeing what the experts say and comparing that to what we, and others, think is a huge part of the lore of baseball. While we look at the future players, some will be stars and others will disappear which leads me to Bubba Starling. This former #5 overall pick had disappeared from the face of the baseball earth and wore the stigma of complete bust, yet, like the Phoenix, he has arisen from the ashes and as been brought up by the Royals. I have been one who has targeted him as the poster boy for the high draft choice who, by virtue only of his draft position, gets chance after chance while far more deserving players, Jeff McNeil for example, are shunted aside until they literally bang the front office door down with their talent. He was drafted in 2011 and he has had to carry those expectations for all those disappointing and frustrating years. I will be watching Bubba, wishing him good luck and hoping he makes it.
What do you mean by Pearson having a questionable build? He’s listed as 6’6″ and 245. Would that be too big?
Listed weight.
Up until recently Eloy Jimenez was listed at 205lbs, which is probably what he weighed at 16.
Royce Lewis is having a crappy year. I’d drop him to 60 FV.