ZiPS Top 100 Prospects
Since 2014, I’ve cranked out the career numbers for every significant prospect, regardless of whether they’ve reached the level of the minors that would normally justify an official projection. After a one-year hiatus, those projections, more commonly known as the ZiPS Top 100 Prospects list, return for their FanGraphs debut. If you’re unaware of what ZiPS projections are and the purpose they serve, please consult this article and this article while I reconsider my public relations strategy.
These projections are not a replacement for scouting. Projection systems are very clever, and a smart analyst can figure out a lot of ways to approach some of the thornier data questions that emerge over 15 years of prognostication (as for me, I’ve muddled by). But they can’t capture everything and the farther down the minor league ladder you go, the worse the data gets and the shorter the players’ histories become. That’s why I usually need a compelling reason to create a yearly projection for a hitter with no High-A experience or a pitcher who has yet to make a Double-A appearance. ZiPS can use college data, but I prefer to avoid it. And ZiPS does not use high school data, as that would be preposterous. Without college stats or a major international league, ZiPS literally has nothing to go on for a player without minor league experience. So if you’re wondering why Jasson Dominguez is missing from the list, it’s not that he’s a lousy prospect, it’s just that ZiPS doesn’t have anything useful to say about him yet.
One of the biggest differences between ZiPS and most other prospect lists is that, given the uncertainty surrounding any prospect’s future performance, ZiPS projections tend to give higher career WAR forecasts to lower-risk, lower-ceiling players in the high minors. So ZiPS has historically given higher grades to prospects like Steven Matz, Kolten Wong, and Marcus Semien, though it turned out his ceiling was quite high, than any other prospect lists did. Some of the successes — players who ranked higher on the ZiPS list than any other I found — include Ozzie Albies (No. 49, pre-2015), Mookie Betts (No. 26, pre-2014), Trea Turner (No. 11, pre-2016), and Joc Pederson (No. 2, pre-2015). Naturally, there have been some dismal busts too, just like any prospect list, the worst possibly being the year ZiPS had Arismendy Alcantara ranked 13th. Whoops.
The full list is in a sortable table below for your perusal, followed by analysis on a few prospects of note. As is my custom, I mainly want to highlight the points of departure from a prospect list, in this case that of our Top 100 list, carefully curated by my colleague Eric Longenhagen. Overall, there are 74 players who appear on both lists, which is right around the average from the days this piece appeared at ESPN, when I compared it to Keith Law’s Top 100.
| ZiPS Rank | Name | Team | Age | Position | Eric’s Rank |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Wander Franco | TB | 19 | SS | 1 |
| 2 | Gavin Lux | LAD | 22 | SS | 2 |
| 3 | Jo Adell | LAA | 21 | RF | 4 |
| 4 | Luis Robert | CHA | 22 | CF | 7 |
| 5 | Carter Kieboom | WAS | 22 | SS | 21 |
| 6 | Nolan Jones | CLE | 22 | 3B | 54 |
| 7 | Dylan Carlson | STL | 21 | CF | 39 |
| 8 | Brendan McKay | TB | 24 | P | 17 |
| 9 | Jesus Luzardo | OAK | 22 | P | 6 |
| 10 | Adley Rutschman | BAL | 22 | C | 5 |
| 11 | Ke’Bryan Hayes | PIT | 23 | 3B | 30 |
| 12 | Keibert Ruiz | LAD | 21 | C | 88 |
| 13 | Dustin May | LAD | 22 | P | 14 |
| 14 | Miguel Amaya | CHN | 21 | C | 65 |
| 15 | Jeter Downs | BOS | 21 | SS | 47 |
| 16 | Nick Madrigal | CHA | 23 | 2B | 41 |
| 17 | Matt Manning | DET | 22 | P | 12 |
| 18 | George Valera | CLE | 19 | CF | 84 |
| 19 | Alec Bohm | PHI | 23 | 3B | 56 |
| 20 | MacKenzie Gore | SD | 21 | P | 3 |
| ZiPS Rank | Name | Team | Age | Position | Eric’s Rank |
| 21 | Nolan Gorman | STL | 20 | 3B | 38 |
| 22 | Nate Pearson | TOR | 23 | P | 8 |
| 23 | Cristian Pache | ATL | 21 | CF | 20 |
| 24 | Jordan Balazovic | MIN | 21 | P | 74 |
| 25 | Mitch Keller | PIT | 24 | P | 34 |
| 26 | Simeon Woods Richardson | TOR | 19 | P | 76 |
| 27 | Bryse Wilson | ATL | 22 | P | 100 |
| 28 | Jarred Kelenic | SEA | 20 | CF | 11 |
| 29 | Sixto Sanchez | MIA | 21 | P | 48 |
| 30 | CJ Abrams | SD | 19 | SS | 22 |
| 31 | Marco Luciano | SF | 18 | SS | 24 |
| 32 | Joey Bart | SF | 23 | C | 10 |
| 33 | Jazz Chisholm | MIA | 22 | SS | 33 |
| 34 | Michael Kopech | CHA | 24 | P | 19 |
| 35 | Casey Mize | DET | 23 | P | 16 |
| 36 | Luis Patiño | SD | 20 | P | 18 |
| 37 | Brendan Rodgers | COL | 23 | 2B | 31 |
| 38 | Brennen Davis | CHN | 20 | CF | 50 |
| 39 | Josiah Gray | LAD | 22 | P | 67 |
| 40 | Isaac Paredes | DET | 21 | 3B | 120 |
| ZiPS Rank | Name | Team | Age | Position | Eric’s Rank |
| 41 | Daniel Lynch | KC | 23 | P | 72 |
| 42 | Luis Campusano | SD | 21 | C | 40 |
| 43 | Grayson Rodriguez | BAL | 20 | P | 29 |
| 44 | A.J. Puk | OAK | 25 | P | 25 |
| 45 | Ian Anderson | ATL | 22 | P | 44 |
| 46 | Daulton Varsho | ARI | 23 | C | 59 |
| 47 | Jordan Groshans | TOR | 20 | SS | 80 |
| 48 | Tarik Skubal | DET | 23 | P | 53 |
| 49 | Tony Gonsolin | LAD | 26 | P | 83 |
| 50 | Gabriel Arias | SD | 20 | SS | Unranked |
| 51 | Brent Honeywell Jr. | TB | 25 | P | 71 |
| 52 | Andrés Giménez | NYN | 21 | SS | 103 |
| 53 | Nico Hoerner | CHN | 23 | SS | 46 |
| 54 | Vidal Brujan | TB | 22 | 2B | 27 |
| 55 | Sherten Apostel | TEX | 21 | 3B | Unranked |
| 56 | Kyle Wright | ATL | 24 | P | 95 |
| 57 | Sean Murphy | OAK | 25 | C | 62 |
| 58 | Cory Abbott | CHN | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 59 | Ezequiel Duran | NYA | 21 | 2B | 85 |
| 60 | Brusdar Graterol | LAD | 21 | P | 113 |
| ZiPS Rank | Name | Team | Age | Position | Eric’s Rank |
| 61 | Brady Singer | KC | 23 | P | Unranked |
| 62 | Jose Urquidy | HOU | 25 | P | 101 |
| 63 | Owen Miller | SD | 23 | SS | Unranked |
| 64 | Deivi Garcia | NYA | 21 | P | 42 |
| 65 | Jon Duplantier | ARI | 25 | P | Unranked |
| 66 | Triston Casas | BOS | 20 | 1B | 57 |
| 67 | Josh Lowe | TB | 22 | CF | 60 |
| 68 | Jeff Bain | ARI | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 69 | Justus Sheffield | SEA | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 70 | Patrick Sandoval | LAA | 23 | P | Unranked |
| 71 | Nick Solak | TEX | 25 | 2B | 109 |
| 72 | Bryan Abreu | HOU | 23 | P | Unranked |
| 73 | Alec Bettinger | MIL | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 74 | Tucker Davidson | ATL | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 75 | Braden Shewmake | ATL | 22 | SS | Unranked |
| 76 | Ryan Jeffers | MIN | 23 | C | Unranked |
| 77 | Royce Lewis | MIN | 21 | SS | 13 |
| 78 | Tyler Freeman | CLE | 21 | SS | 93 |
| 79 | Daulton Jefferies | OAK | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 80 | Mauricio Dubón | SF | 25 | 2B | Unranked |
| ZiPS Rank | Name | Team | Age | Position | Eric’s Rank |
| 81 | Spencer Howard | PHI | 23 | P | 26 |
| 82 | Julio Rodriguez | SEA | 19 | RF | 9 |
| 83 | Logan Gilbert | SEA | 23 | P | 45 |
| 84 | Forrest Whitley | HOU | 22 | P | 15 |
| 85 | Xavier Edwards | TB | 20 | 2B | 75 |
| 86 | Trevor Rogers | MIA | 22 | P | Unranked |
| 87 | Braxton Garrett | MIA | 22 | P | Unranked |
| 88 | Austin Hays | BAL | 24 | CF | Unranked |
| 89 | Brett Conine | HOU | 23 | P | Unranked |
| 90 | Hudson Potts | SD | 21 | 3B | Unranked |
| 91 | Orelvis Martinez | TOR | 18 | SS | 89 |
| 92 | Emmanuel Clase | CLE | 22 | P | Unranked |
| 93 | Lewis Thorpe | MIN | 24 | P | Unranked |
| 94 | Joey Wentz | DET | 22 | P | Unranked |
| 95 | Matthew Liberatore | STL | 20 | P | 94 |
| 96 | Taylor Walls | TB | 23 | SS | Unranked |
| 97 | Tyler Stephenson | CIN | 23 | C | 73 |
| 98 | Andrew Vaughn | CHA | 22 | 1B | 37 |
| 99 | Luis Garcia | WAS | 20 | SS | 87 |
| 100 | Jonathan India | CIN | 23 | 3B | Unranked |
Bobby Witt Jr., SS, Kansas City Royals
Bobby Witt Jr. is the first player on the list not to finish in the ZiPS top 100, partially due to the issues that arise when you unleash a projection system on a player with extremely limited professional experience and no college history. What’s surprising is how close Witt came, showing a lot of gap power for a young shortstop over a very limited span of time. If he shows anything at all in 2020 — which seems likely — he’ll shoot up this list very quickly. ZiPS projects a .780 OPS for Witt if he played in High-A this season, and if I instruct ZiPS to take that performance as having actually happened already, he would be the No. 35 prospect instead. With the uncertainty, he just misses the list.
Gabriel Arias, SS, San Diego Padres
It’s hard to say by how much Gabriel Arias missed the FanGraphs 100 because he wasn’t on the radar at all for ZiPS coming into 2019. ZiPS had his 2018 minor league translation at .181/.236/.257, which didn’t turning any algorithmic heads. But he hit .302/.339/.470 for High-A Lake Elsinore in 2019, an impressive line for a 19-year-old; the California League is a hitter’s league, but that still translates to .227/.259/.366. ZiPS isn’t saying he’s ready in 2020, but Arias is the highest-ranking ZiPS 100 to not make Eric’s Top 100, and at No. 50, is the lowest ranked player to ever achieve the title of Mr. Sorta Relevant.
Nolan Jones, 3B, Cleveland Indians
It’s ZiPS No. 6 vs. FanGraphs No. 54, in large part due to the proclivity I reference above of my projections tending to place a premium on guys who are fairly close to the majors and look to have a real shot at being contributors there. That Jones’ power hasn’t yet manifested itself in the stats doesn’t concern ZiPS, unless Cleveland moves him across the diamond to first base. Jones was relatively young for Double-A and didn’t lose his very disciplined approach at the plate. ZiPS sees him peaking as a .260/.340/.470 player in his prime. The platoon splits are worrying, but a lot of players (Ryan Klesko for example) grow out of that in time.
Jones isn’t the only Nolan that ZiPS likes; the system ranks Cardinals third base prospect Nolan Gorman ahead of his spot on Eric’s list, 21st vs. 38th.
Julio Rodriguez, RF, Seattle Mariners
Julio Rodriguez is the only player in Eric’s top 10 who is not in the top 50 in ZiPS. He still makes the list, but since the projections have summarily dismissed any idea of him playing center field and have him as a below-average right fielder, ZiPS isn’t as sold on Rodriguez as it is on the other A-ball standouts on this list, even with a perfectly reasonable .236/.285/.378 translation. If his season had been entirely in the High-A California League, Rodriguez’s rank here would have jumped to No. 35, just like Witt’s. Rodriguez is very young so it wouldn’t shock me if this projection ends up looking way too pessimistic five years from now.
Bryse Wilson, SP, Atlanta Braves
You could make the argument that Bryse Wilson has kind of gotten lost in the shuffle and isn’t as flashy as some of the other guys in Atlanta’s seemingly endless parade of pitching prospects. But he fared very well in Triple-A and based on his batted ball profile, ZiPS thinks he was only “lucky” by two homers in 2019, bumping his International League total to 14 homers allowed in 121 innings. That wouldn’t normally sound impressive, but this was the New International League, where teams hit 202 homers per 162 games played and the average pitcher had a 4.90 ERA. Wilson’s not flashy, but ZiPS sees him as safe. Even pitching that is merely safe can cost teams a lot of money!
Luis Robert, CF, Chicago White Sox
There’s no major disagreement about Luis Robert between silicon and flesh-and-blood, but there’s one tidbit I didn’t talk about in the White Sox’s team post, one that could make Robert underrated, even at No. 4: defense. ZiPS projected Robert as a rather prosaic +4 defensive center fielder in 2019, but this is due in large part to the fact that ZiPS is designed to take its defensive estimates with a large grain of salt. In the 2019 numbers, which are generated from calculating catch probability for every ball based on Gameday location and velocity description, Robert’s defense broke out, to the tune of +20.9 runs across multiple outfield positions, second in the minor leagues only to Michael Siani. He was only +3 in 2018, and it’s reasonable to be suspicious of one-year minor league defensive numbers, but the potential of level of production being real is what could drive Robert to a shockingly good rookie season (and career).
Keibert Ruiz, C, Los Angeles Dodgers
We all know There is No Such Thing as a Pitching Prospect, but you could actually say that of catchers as well. Catchers have weird developmental curves, blossoming and collapsing out of nowhere, and it’s a tough position for a young player to play. Keibert Ruiz’s offense was rather lackluster on its face, but a 20-year-old catcher playing in the high minors and not going splat is an impressive feat on its own. Ruiz may never develop and could turn into Mark Johnson: The Next Generation, but given his youth and plate discipline, the projections are confident. Those reasons are also why ZiPS ranked Cubs catcher Miguel Amaya 14th.
Brusdar Graterol, P, Los Angeles Dodgers
Jeter Downs, SS, Boston Red Sox
I think these are the right teams; it’s hard to tell in all the chaos that was the Mookie Betts trade. ZiPS likes both the key prospects more than the FanGraphs 100 does. Downs checks in at the No. 15 spot (vs. No. 47), with ZiPS more impressed with his offense (a .223/.288/.415 translation at just age 20) than his defense (-9.4 in 2019, with a -6.0 projection). A guy named Jeter with a potent bat who looks to struggle defensively at short…reminds me of someone.
There’s a lot of uncertainty about Graterol’s future role but even with the system projecting the right-hander first as a reliever before transitioning into a 120-inning flex role (which the Dodgers are creative enough to do), it’s enough to get him the No. 60 spot. If he proves to be more durable than people suspect, that ranking could be underselling him. Graterol gained around 100 pounds from ages 16 to 21, which is impressive to me as I barely put on 50, though I started as the larger teenage son.
George Valera, CF, Cleveland Indians
It’s unusual for ZiPS to like a short-season A-ball hitter quite this much, but a .210 ISO against recent college graduates at age 18 is impressive extra-base wattage for a player on the hard side of the defensive spectrum. In addition, the New York-Penn League is a notoriously difficult place to hit homers, with only four players putting up double-digit home run totals last season. George Valera hit eight in less than two-thirds of a full season. The error bars are massive and I’d personally put Julio Rodriguez above Valera, but I don’t put my thumb on the scale. The Indians could certainly use an outfielder, so from a practical standpoint, if Valera excels, he could advance through the system pretty quickly.
Sherten Apostel, 3B, Texas Rangers
ZiPS likes the power potential from the big third baseman, seeing him as more likely-than-not to be a legitimate 30 home run hitter in his prime. How good that ends up making Apostel depends on what his other stats look like — his batting average projects to stay fairly low — and what position he plays. ZiPS saw him as a -2 third baseman in 2019, which isn’t good enough for me to say he deserves to stay there, but at least he’s not a disaster at the hot corner. As a 45+ FV on the last 2019 update to The Board, it doesn’t appear that Apostel was that far from making the FanGraphs 100, but even 101 would be well below his 55th place ZiPS rank.
Forrest Whitley, SP, Houston Astros
You might have done a double take when you saw Forest Whitley all the way down at No. 84, but considering how much of his prospect ranking is stuff rather than actual performance, I’m actually mildly surprised he made the ZiPS 100 at all. Scouts rightly drool over Whitley’s deep and varied repertoire, but ZiPS sees him as an occasionally brilliant pitcher with limited playing time and an injury-marred 2019 that came with severe walk issues. Whitley’s a terrific prospect, but as with Mark Appel some years ago, keep his performance record in the back of your mind to dampen your excitement just a skosh.
Ke’Bryan Hayes, 3B, Pittsburgh Pirate
It’s not the difference between ZiPS (No. 11) and Eric’s ranking (No. 30) that make Hayes so fun to talk about here but rather the fact that he’s one of only two prospects remaining from my 2016 list whose fate is still largely up in the air. (Brent Honeywell is the other and that’s mainly because he’s lost so much time to injury.) ZiPS essentially projects Hayes as it always has: a middling offensive third baseman with a huge, huge glove. He’s moved up the ranks as he’s gotten closer to the majors, but there’s almost no change in how ZiPS forecasts his future. Hayes probably won’t hit enough to be Matt Chapman-lite since Chapman has exploded offensively, but No Sugar Added, Caffeine Free Matt Chapman ain’t bad either.
Braden Shewmake, SS, Atlanta Braves
Daulton Jefferies, SP, Oakland Athletics
Braxton Garrett, SP, Miami Marlins
Joey Wentz, SP, Detroit Tigers
Taylor Walls, SS, Tampa Bay Rays
Eric and ZiPS agreed on 74 players, but these players weren’t that far from giving us five more; they all made Eric’s list of players he expects to make the Top 100 next year, suggesting the disagreement may be less qualitative and more temporal.
Wentz made it to No. 44 on the pre-2018 ZiPS list, but injuries derailed his 2018 campaign, and his strikeout rate plummeted, enough that it would have either knocked him down to the bottom of the pre-2019 list or off of it altogether. 2019 saw Wentz mostly get back on track, especially in his late-season Double-A stint after being traded for Shane Greene. All things being equal, I would have preferred the Braves hang onto Wentz, but given Atlanta’s bullpen and their status as contenders, all things were not equal.
We haven’t seen a healthy Daulton Jefferies yet, so even if he was rather old for a Double-A debut in 2019, he only had eight games of prior professional experience. To pitch so well, so quickly — a 10:1 strikeout-walk ratio for Double-A Midland — intrigued ZiPS, even though the injury risk remains high. Jefferies isn’t going to blow batters away at the plate, but the A’s tend to do really well with pitchers like this, which ZiPS doesn’t consider as a factor in the projections. Braxton Garrett is another prospect who was waylaid by injury, requiring Tommy John after he was pulled in his fourth professional start for elbow discomfort. Garrett’s comeback in 2019 was successful and he struck out 10 batters a game for High-A Jupiter, so he’s already come farther back than another former Marlin first-rounder, Tyler Kolek, was ever able to.
In my writeup for the Tampa Bay Rays, I talked about the organization’s ability to produce two-win players seemingly out of thin air. They appear to be doing so yet again with Taylor Walls, a fast shortstop (ZiPS put him at the 69th percentile of historical middle infielders within a year of his age) with decent plate discipline. ZiPS has him as a plus at shortstop in the minors each of the last two seasons (+7.2 runs, +9.7 runs), and for a player who isn’t considered to be much of a power hitter, there’s a big difference between a guy who can hit eight to 12 homers a year in his prime, as ZiPS forecasts Walls to do, and the Jason Tyner homer-every-full-solar-eclipse variety.
Dan Szymborski is a senior writer for FanGraphs and the developer of the ZiPS projection system. He was a writer for ESPN.com from 2010-2018, a regular guest on a number of radio shows and podcasts, and a voting BBWAA member. He also maintains a terrible Twitter account at @DSzymborski.
Appreciate the work Dan, I always look forward to reading any ZiPS related stuff! I’m just curious about Drew Waters. Kind of surprised he didn’t make the list considering his age and level. Just wondering how close he was. Thanks!
Wander Javier didn’t make the list either and he’s a far superior prospect to Drew Waters. The glaring omission of generational prospect WJ, and I guess Drew Waters too, proves without a shadow of a doubt that Dan’s fancy algorithm computer is broken.
Just out of curiosity- if you meant generational talent Wander Franco, he’s still ranked #1. If you actually meant Twins FV 40+ SS W.Javier, then I think you have your adjectives jumbled.
I can’t decide if I want Wander Javier to make the majors in hopes this schtick dies or if that would just perpetuate it.
I’m not usually one for wishing anyone ill, but I’m getting to the point I’d almost like to see him hit .140/.200/.212 over a full season just to shut this dude up.
I have a strong suspicion that may only fuel the fire.
@goyo70 Spend enough time on the FG prospects pages and you will get to know DustyColorado
Something about prospect discussions seems to really bring out the wackos. It’s similar to boards about collectibles (baseball cards, coins, etc.), that bring out the nutcase true believers. There was a board a million years ago – I can’t remember which one now – when one dude wouldn’t stfu about about Derek Holland and how much better he was than every other pitching prospect in the minors, to the point beyond being truly obnoxious.
That’s because prospects aren’t actually people, they’re just objects to collect.
“Any incorrect predictions that are still Carson’s fault.”
Inclusion of the word “that” in the above sentence is also Carson’s fault.
I’m not anything close to an English major but isnt “Any incorrect predictions” also faulty? I feel it should be “Any incorrect prediction is…” or “All incorrect predictions are…”
If so, Carson is even faultier than we were led to believe
No, not faulty.
I am a little surprised Evan White didn’t do better here. He hit quite well at a AA park that suppresses RH power, is a terrific runner and fielder, and will get MLB reps. Did 1B kill his positional value?
ZiPS doesn’t seem to like the lower half of the defensive spectrum at all. There are only 2 first basemen and 2 corner outfielders on the entire list.
Interesting finding. Are 1Bs, RFs and LFs no longer considered real prospects anymore?
1B prospects have always been a bit questionable (and enough 1B stars came up through the minors at 3B, OF, or even Catcher that it makes some sense). Of course,
White is a weird case in that he has the wheels to play a strong OF, but is kept at 1B because his defense is so good there. A bit of a Modern day Darin Erstad (hopefully with more thump). I am surprised a system that favors low upside, close-to-majors types didn’t like him as much as the traditional lists do.
The thing with white is simply put his statistical case is underwhelming. He’s older with subpar ISO’s for a 1B and mediocre BB/K at best. There is a lot to suggest he has lot of bust potential
When will ZiPS be on the Fangraphs Projections board?
For at least a few of these prospects, the big difference between Eric’s list (and KATOH, back when it was a thing…RIP) and ZiPs is that ZiPs is a lot less concerned about strikeouts, especially at the lower levels. Certainly, Gabriel Arias looks interesting and has power and has performed at a very young age in A+ but he has always shown a lot of problems with contact, and the same is very much true of Nolan Jones and George Valera. The logical counterpoint from the standpoint of ZiPs is, sure, of course they’re having trouble making contact, they’re teenagers playing against guys 2-4 years older than them. Still, these are the kinds of things that would keep me up at night if I was banking on them being a contributor, and likely the reason why they’re not higher on Eric’s list.
What I do think this reminds me of a bit is that from an org perspective, Cleveland has always been known as a team that has “model friendly” scouting departments, which often means they’re working hard to find the youngest possible guys to put into their system. I don’t know if San Diego is like that as well, but their incredible success in scouting international free agents and aggressive promotion schedules probably lends itself well to these sorts of analysis. (I guess Cleveland also has that going for them too.) So I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that there are names from those orgs ranked much higher than on a traditional scouting list. I would be really interested to see a full list of which orgs score way better/worse in the ZiPs list than Eric’s top 100 list.
lowest IRR is on pitchers with no track record (?) which makes……. sense. I guess if you don’t have data on someone, might pick a lower estimate. Position player ratings actually aren’t that far off.
Keibert Ruiz is interesting. Top 10 entering 2019, had a lackluster year with some injuries, still top 10 in the 2019 update, but then 86 after the off-season, but zips basically says what the end of season 2019 said: still an extremely young catcher with good core skills.
So I kind of wonder if the drop reflects off field information about Ruiz or about industry consensus responding to the disappointing 2019 differently than the projection system does.
According to Dan, ZiPs is blown away that any 20-year old catcher can play in AA and not be terrible. The system figures anyone who has gotten that far will eventually figure it out.
According to the scouts, he’s got a bad body and some difficulties with throwing out baserunners, and the power has completely evaporated. The contact quality is bad enough that not only has his homer total dropped but is BABIP has cratered, which hurts his OBP. My sense is that his problems are at least partly with approach, that he’s the kind of guy who can make contact with everything and so he’s not looking for pitches he can drive. But depending on what the injuries were, that could also explain it.
He had a hand injury in ’19. A switch hitting catcher with contact skills and decent plate discipline seems like they have a substantial floor
Probably depends on when the hand injury occurred. The only references I can find to hand injuries are in the futures game, where he already had a pretty similar batting line to what he ended with in AA, and a broken finger which knocked him out for the rest of the year. But if he hurt his wrist or hand in Spring Training that could definitely sap his power.
I think the realistic hope for him is that he figures out how to punish pitches enough that teams start to respect his power. A 35 game power, 20 run guy, who doesn’t strike out or walk much looks a lot like the most recent version of Jonathan Lucroy, who has put up wRC+’s in the 75-80 range. Which is definitely enough to start and be very valuable if the framing is good, and probably more like a guy who gets most of his bats from the left side while platooning if the framing is not good.
But, again, he’s pretty young, and the Dodgers have done a good job of getting their minor leaguers to tap into more power, so I wouldn’t write him off yet either. He’s got skills that are hard to teach.
In terms of prospect discussion, a 76 game hysterical overreaction of a 20 year old C at AA doesn’t seem to warrant that large a fall though.
I would be curious to see a two lists of players who made one list and not the other ie here are the prospect team players who didn’t make the ZIPs list and here are the ZIPs players who didn’t make the prospect team list
Royce Lewis seems pretty low,Twins seem pretty happy with his development even with that extreme swing (big leg kick,hand movement)
“while I reconsider my public relations strategy.” They could really use you in Houston, Dan.
No LF and only 2 RF on the entire list. Eric’s list has 4 LF and 7 RF. What are the reasons that ZiPS is more pessimistic about corner OF?
I noticed the difference after I saw that Trevor Larnach or Alex Kirilloff don’t make the top 100. Dan, are there other, more specific reasons that ZIPS dropped them below 100?
It doesn’t reach parity, but remember, Eric is listing players where he thinks they’ll end up, while ZiPS is projecting players based on where they are now. So I’ll always have higher proportion of guys on the tough side of the defensive spectrum; a lot of the CFs I project , especially at low levels, are probably actually corner outfield prospects.
As for Kirilloff, ZiPS absolutely hates his 2019 season and thinks Larnach should be hitting for more power at this point, even given parks.
Thanks!
What was there to hate about Kirilloff’s 19? He was hurt, but put up a fine OBP and slugged over 400 with a 121 wRC. What’s the system not liking?
For one, projection systems are still brute force when dealing with injuries.
Second, for a corner outfielder, that’s not super-exciting. ZiPS translates his last two minor league seasons at .267/.303/.424 (2018) and .268/.314/.393 (2019). He’s young obviously, but the other minor leaguers within a year of his age and translations in 2019 within 25 points of OPS were Josh Naylor, Niko Hulsizer, Jorge Ona, Griffin Conine, Canaan Smith, Erik Migueles, Yusniel Diaz, and Trevor Larnach.
A fine prospect, of course, but that’s not enough to make the top 100. Julio Rodriguez’s translation wasn’t *that* far behind, he’s three years younger and *he* just barely made the top 100.
I like how both systems peg Jazz Chisholm at 33rd.
I’m just happy to learn the official spelling for “skosh.”
You might also like the etymology, which is from the Japanese “sukoshi”, courtesy of U.S. soldiers.
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-sko1.htm
Any thoughts on the divergence with Amaya?
My wild guess…Catching prospect without any carrying tool/s, arguably a maxed out frame, and batting lines more the kind projections like and probably only because he’s so young at catcher
I thought on paper he was a top 50 prospect pretty handily, would take Amaya over alot of C prospects ranked above him on more traditional lists (coughSamHuffcough). That said while ZiPs agreeing gives more confidence in that belief, there’s a big part of me that really needs to see him do it in the upper minors
These are certainly worse than any human curated rankings. I could see celebrating the limitations of projection systems, but that doesn’t seem to be the intended message.
“These are certainly worse than any human curated rankings. ” Are you gonna provide evidence that this is the worst ranking system, or just going to make comments that make you seem like you’re on mood altering substances?
I’d like one MSE, but I’d settle for a comparison of a couple of lists for once instead of baseless criticism.
Here, try this on for size: “this seems biased for pitchers, particularly towards pitchers for whom we have more data than others. Higher rankings could just be capturing more concrete posteriors because of the data density”
OK, tell us the WAR from 2020-2030 which you measured against these.
Thanks for all the hard work here.
Any chance that *you* would be willing the share the 2021-2030 forecast war for the names on this list? Or at least some of them?
I’m fascinated to know what the Franco outlook is. And, to extent it’s possible, how it stacks up with historicals.
EG, what would zips have projected for Arod or Griffey or Strawberry or whomever at a similar age, and how does Franco stack up?
I see the “generational prospect” label hung on him a lot, I’d love to see it quantified, and I can think of no system better to do it than Zips.
WAR doesn’t apply, remember, because the minors are thinner than any time in history and baseball is the worst it’s ever been played according to this commenter (RonnieDobbs 2018 at least-2020). So you couldn’t even prove him wrong unless you did some sort of era adjustment (And even if you did, I BET THE GOALPOSTS MOVE once you try)
I don’t have hands big enough to make the kind of wanking motion the parent comment deserves, if it’s not clear. I’m sure it’s just a fuzzily thought out drive by from a deadspin refugee. There’s value in benchmarking these projections, but there’s no way that’s what Dobbs actually meant.
For those curious, looking at the 2014 list (the first one), the ZiPS Top 100 has combined for 592.2 WAR. This compares to FanGraphs that year at 563.7, Law at 553.8, MLB Pipeline at 448.9.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQ_9oOeWsAAwxXj?format=png&name=large
There seems to be an Eduardo Rodriguez duplicate, I might have done something, lemme check.
Domingo Santana should have been 69th, costing me about 6 wins.
I’ve included BA too, but it’s not quite apples-to-apples as they considered Cubans and NPB guys as prospects too and at least one who was no longer a rookie (CMart).
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERAHpbLWoAAyBbP?format=png&name=small
Nice
You could also calculate your marginal return too, if it’s not too complicated (I can get back to you on how to do this if you want, but I have to pen and paper it a bit and think through it). Like, the person at Zips #3 spot had a better return than KLaws #3, and so on.
My bet is Zips doesn’t just return over all more WAR, it’s more precise about which players are better than others and might catch on sooner (so that higher rankings than other systems might indicate that Zips is “on” to undervalued assets)
Love this! I hope this becomes a trend over the coming decade. Whether the results were favorable or not, seeing this sort of retroactive assessment is refreshing.
Preach
Pipeline’s got league and team agendas to follow, you heard it here first!
Daulton Jefferies over Matthew Liberatore and Spencer Howard you LOVE to see it!
luis robert hype train is boarding at the station
What does ZiPS do with Oneil Cruz? Throw up its shoulders and shrug?
the new Wilson Betemit. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2020-zips-projections-pittsburgh-pirates/
“New International League”
I hear that’s a more authentic league than the King James League
Comparing the lists was very informative and interesting. It appears as if MLB Pipeline left off some players with 2013 experience even if they were still eligible in 2014. This includes Bogaerts, Bradley, Wong, d’Arnaud, Gausman and Semien, These omissions are understood but the list is missing Betts, Springer and Baez! None of these great players came to the majors before 2014 and they literally explode off the page by their absence on the MLB list. ZIPS made several prescient calls hitting on Robbie Ray and Max Kepler in the top 25. OTOH only Zips saw that Byron Buxton, while still a valuable player, was not going to be the player everyone else in baseball thought he would become.
One of the primary benefits of a projection system is that it feels no pressure to conform. ZiPS didn’t care that the consensus around Buxton was OMG NEXT WILLIE MAYS. It merely analyzed his performance data and spit out a result. Obviously there are limits to that approach, but I think we have enough data now (between ZiPS and KATOH) to say that it’s a useful tool for finding guys who are underrated by traditional prospect evaluation.
Buxton just finished his age 25 season by slugging over .500 and providing his usual tremendous defense & baserunning. So it might be a bit early to pat ZiPS on the back over that B.B. forecast. Buxton’s got a craptastic career wRC+ of 84 so far, and has STILL been worth comfortably more than 3 WAR per 600 PAs at Fangraphs — and a lot more than that at Baseball-Reference.
And after all, ZiPS did have Buxton as the #6 prospect in baseball; in other words, a future Hall Of Famer. For my money the most impressive ZiPS projection was probably either Kolten Wong at #20 (Fangraphs had him 80th, Keith Law 91st, and Pipeline nowhere) or Marcus Semien at 31st, when all others ignored him entirely.
I would pay good American money for a FanGraphs membership if each player’s year-by-year career ZiPS projection were listed on his page.
Me too, although arguably American money hasn’t been good for over a hundred years.
The downvotes suggest no one likes a gold standard reference.
It is comedy gold (but US didn’t really get off the gold standard until 1971, which only seems like a hundred years ago to you youngsters.)
Cory Abbott’s been getting some solid recognition this offseason. All I ask is he help land Lindor and/or crush any starts the Cubs give him
Interesting how Nolan Gorman’s 17-rank jump was noted, but not his future teammate Dylan Carlson’s 32-rank jump to number 7. Probably because Gorman fitted in nicely as a 3B named Nolan. 🙂
Forrest Whitley, yikes.
Just a nitpick: I haven’t seen a discussion of McKay as a DH, will that ever come up?
Check out the ZiPS Rays projection. McKay’s hitting comp is a guy named BONK. (Dan touches on his bat projection a bit in the text, too.) https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2020-zips-projections-tampa-bay-rays/
Brilliant stuff, great to see this feature.