2017 Trade Value: #41 to #50

It’s that time of year again: baseball is taking most of the week off to host an exhibition game, and we’re ranking the 50 most valuable trade chips in baseball while they do so. If you aren’t familiar with the series, go read the honorable-mentions post, which includes the introduction and an explanation of what this whole thing is.
As one additional point of explanation, the tables that we’re including below show a few pieces of information: the years remaining before the player is eligible for free agency, whether those years are covered by the arbitration system or a multi-year contract, the guaranteed money owed to the player if a long-term deal is in place, and the ZiPS projections for the player for each year that he’s under control of his current club. The ZiPS forecasts are there to help you get an idea for what one forecasting system thinks of the player’s long-term future, though the players are not ranked solely based on these projections. At the end of the post, we’ll summarize each individual player’s information box with a grid showing all the players ranked in the series so far, and that grid includes the same reference information.
With that said, let’s get right to the guys who made the final 10 spots on the Trade Value list this year.
| Team Control WAR Total | +8.0 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | #47 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 27 | +2.6 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 28 | +2.7 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 29 | +2.6 | Arb3 |
This last spot was really tough. There are so many players you could put here, with probably 10 to 15 guys having just as strong a case as Lamb for this spot. Even just within third baseman, you could make a case for Justin Turner or Kyle Seager, and then there are all the other good players at other positions who didn’t quite make the cut. If you feel strongly that some other player should be No. 50, I probably don’t disagree with you. Rounding out the list turned into an exercise of picking one of many similarly valuable players.
But while the projections look at his age and mediocre track record and suggest that Lamb isn’t anything special, he might be the kind of player who has benefited the most from this homers-for-everyone offensive era. His power surge the last few years has made him a better hitter than he looked earlier in his career, and pitchers are certainly treating him like a feared hitter these days. The defense at third isn’t great, but as a 26-year-old who might be blossoming into one of the game’s better young hitters, Lamb just sneaks in ahead of a number of other worthy candidates for the final spot on this list.
| Team Control WAR Total | +12.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2021 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 25 | +2.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 26 | +3.2 | Arb1 |
| 2020 | 27 | +3.3 | Arb2 |
| 2021 | 28 | +3.0 | Arb3 |
If you want to save some time reading these blurbs, you can effectively copy and paste the Aaron Nola comment onto almost every other pitcher in this group. When healthy, Nola has been very good, and at times looks like one of the best starting pitchers in baseball. But his arm has hurt more often than you want, and the results haven’t always matched the peripherals. There’s a lot of risk here, and the stuff isn’t necessarily top-shelf, so the upside might be more good pitcher than great one.
But there also aren’t a lot of 24-year-olds out there who can match Nola’s big-league results when he’s been on a mound. If he figures out how to keep his arm intact, four years of a low-cost starting pitcher who can pitch at this level is quite a valuable thing indeed. Valuing a pitcher with health problems is obviously challenging without access to medicals, but the fact that Nola is throwing the ball really well at the moment certainly isn’t hurting his trade value.
| Team Control WAR Total | +8.5 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 29 | +2.8 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 30 | +2.9 | Arb3 |
| 2020 | 31 | +2.8 | Arb4 |
Fact: James Paxton is a 28-year-old who has never thrown more than 121 big-league innings in a season.
Also fact: over the last year, the top three starters in baseball by FIP- are Sale, Scherzer, and James Paxton. By xFIP-, he’s tied for sixth, with Scherzer.
The upside is undeniable. A lefty who sits 96 with a knockout curveball is always going to be coveted, and for the last year or so, Paxton has pitched like a guy with this kind of stuff. But the health problems are extensive and the track record is very short, so the risks are as high as the reward. With three years of arbitration left, Paxton will remain a bargain for a while, and the lack of a guaranteed contract gives teams an out if the arm explodes.
I think teams covet high-end pitching enough to take on the risks involved. I also expect the price would reflect the reality that no one really knows what Paxton might do in the future.
| Team Control WAR Total | +7.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 27 | +2.2 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 28 | +2.5 | Arb3 |
| 2020 | 29 | +2.5 | Arb4 |
Like a lot of pitchers in this last group of 10, Stroman is not so easy to project. At times, he looks like one of the best pitchers in baseball, as he has in the first half of this year. Other times, he looks like a pitch-to-contact guy who doesn’t manage contact very well and is destined to be an inconsistent starter until he figures out how to miss bats more often.
ZiPS is obviously not a big fan, though I’d happily take the over on Stroman being an average pitcher going forward, assuming he stays healthy. But with an inconsistent track record and three raises coming off his Super Two status before he hits free agency, Stroman is a tough guy to peg down. There’s a good argument for him being 10 spots higher, just like there’s a good argument for him not appearing on this list at all. For now, he’ll settle in here, though he’ll likely either be a lot higher or off the list entirely next year.
| Team Control WAR Total | +8.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | #28 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 28 | +3.2 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 29 | +2.9 | Arb3 |
| 2020 | 30 | +2.8 | Arb4 |
After a monster first half last year that got him into the top 30 on last year’s list, Bradley has gone back to being a good player, not a superstar. He’s an above-average bat and a good-to-great defender, depending on how much weight you put on his fielding data. There aren’t many better two-way guys than Bradley in baseball, and even if the bat is more good than great, he’s a borderline star, especially if UZR is undervaluing his abilities in center field.
There are some negatives, tough. Defense peaks early, for one, and Bradley is already 27. He’s got three more arbitration seasons before free agency, but he was a Super Two, so his costs will escalate pretty quickly. And now that anyone with a pulse can hit 25 homers, it’s easy to find guys who hit like Bradley hits. If the defense regresses, he’s just a nice solid role player.
But so far, there’s no reason to think the defense has regressed, making him one of the best all-around center fielders in baseball. With three more years until free agency after this season, he remains a very valuable member of the Red Sox organization.
| Team Control WAR Total | +7.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | #20 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 25 | +3.8 | Arb2 |
| 2019 | 26 | +3.6 | Arb3 |
This is not the Xander Bogaerts we thought we’d be seeing a few years ago, but despite becoming a pretty different kind of player than he looked like as a prospect, he’s still turned out just fine. He’s on his way to his third consecutive +4 WAR season and still isn’t yet 25. So, by any standard, his career to date has been a success.
Because he had his rookie season at age 21, though, he’s only got two years left before free agency, which is the main reason he’s down here and not up with many of the other young stars in the game. As much as he still looks like a franchise building block, he’s not under control long enough to really be considered a long-term asset, and as a shot-term value, he’s more of a really good player than a great one. Of course, if the Red Sox actually made him available, there would be plenty of suitors, but maybe less than we’d expect for a 24-year-old All-Star.
| Team Control WAR Total | +8.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2019 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 28 | +4.4 | Arb3 |
| 2019 | 29 | +4.2 | Arb4 |
The up-and-down nature of Rendon’s career is squarely up again, as the Nationals third baseman once again looks like an MVP candidate. Over the last year, Rendon is at +6.2 WAR, the ninth-best mark among position players. When he’s healthy and playing at full strength, there aren’t a lot of guys in the game better than >Anthony Rendon.
Of course, as we’ve talked about with these pitchers, health is a skill, and Rendon’s trade value would definitely have to reflect the fact that he’s had his share of injury problems and slumps that look like he was playing at less than 100%. And now that he’s getting closer to free agency, there are limits to what a team would offer for a couple of years of an underrated star with health problems, especially one represented by Scott Boras, limiting a team’s chances of getting a pre-free-agent extension signed.
So Rendon ranks a few spots lower than the other guys who made the list despite being controlled just through 2019. But the other guys in his free-agent class who cracked this top 50 are acknowledged superstars, and given how Rendon is playing again, he belongs in their company.
| Team Control WAR Total | +10.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 26 | +3.4 | Arb1 |
| 2019 | 27 | +3.5 | Arb2 |
| 2020 | 28 | +3.7 | Arb3 |
If you like strikeouts, you love Robbie Ray, as few starters miss bats more often than the Diamondbacks’ 25-year-old lefty. It’s very easy to look at Ray’s contact rates and see an ace in the making, and his 2.97 ERA to begin 2017 supports the idea of Ray as a breakout frontline starter.
But despite the obvious upside, there are some legitimate concerns here, too. In writing up Ray’s performance in 2016 from a contact-management standpoint, Tony Blengino noted that Ray’s season was “one of the poorest contact-management performances in recent memory.” That .352 BABIP wasn’t just bad luck; when hitters did make contact against Ray, they crushed it.
While he’s posted much better results on contact this year, Blengino noted a few weeks ago that Ray “has been extremely lucky across all (ball-in-play) types…,” and his underlying numbers don’t support the idea that he’s fixed his big problem from last year. Toss in a very high walk rate and the fact that he’s never thrown more than 175 innings in a season, and there’s a lot of downside to go with the clear upside.
But if a team wants to gamble on a high-risk/-reward profile, Ray is one of the more interesting gambles out there. He has all three of his arbitration seasons remaining, and with mediocre career traditional counting stats, he won’t break the bank over the next few years either. And if he does improve on his contact issues or get the walks under control, he’s a legitimate frontline pitcher. If he somehow manages to do both, he could very well be an ace.
| Team Control WAR Total | +11.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $8.8 M |
| Team Control Through | 2020 |
| Previous Rank | #25 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 29 | +3.8 | $8.8 M |
| 2019 | 30 | +3.8 | $10.5 M |
| 2020 | 31 | +3.6 | $10.5 M |
Here’s the player on this list most likely to be moved in the next few weeks, which should give us a chance to look back and see how well we estimated his market value. Early-season struggles aside, Quintana remains a very good pitcher — and, importantly, one of the most durable pitchers in the game — as he heads towards a fifth consecutive year of 200 innings pitched. While this group of 10 was full of pitchers who throw harder and miss more bats than Quintana does, he’s a relatively safe selection in a land of high-risk options.
With three years remaining on his contract, the latter two of which are team options, it’s obvious why the White Sox are hanging a high price tag on their best remaining big leaguer. There aren’t many guys out there who offer this level of quality with minimal financial risk. Rick Hahn clearly believes a team will eventually come around to the idea that Quintana is a scarce commodity, a frontline controllable starter, and he’ll be compensated accordingly. Whether a team will pay an ace price for a guy who doesn’t have prototypical ace stuff remains to be seen.
| Five-Year WAR | +16.3 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | TBD |
| Previous Rank | #26 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2018 | 23 | +2.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2019 | 24 | +3.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2020 | 25 | +3.6 | Pre-Arb |
| 2021 | 26 | +3.6 | Arb1 |
| 2022 | 27 | +3.8 | Arb2 |
It’s fun to write up guys who have actually gotten moved lately. Since most of these guys don’t get traded, this exercise involves a lot of speculation, but in this case, we actually do know Yoan Moncada’s trade value in relation to Chris Sale, and can infer from that what it says about Moncada’s value relative to other kinds of players.
Certainly, there are few players with a more tantalizing ceiling, which is why the White Sox were willing to surrender one of the game’s best pitchers primarily to land him in their deal with the Red Sox. Eric Longenhagen put him in a tier by himself when ranking the game’s best prospects this spring, and this year, Moncada has more than held his own in Triple-A as a 22-year-old. So, why the 15-spot drop?
Well, for one, the Sale trade happened, and suggested that last year’s ranking was probably too aggressive. For all the upside, Moncada’s probably not ready to help a big-league team win right now, and the risks associated with his high strikeout rate and questionable defense mean that he might not ever turn into what he’s been projected to become. He certainly could become a star, but there’s risk here, and not a lot of present value, so the Red Sox were willing to move him for a significant short-term upgrade.
While Moncada is clearly a very valuable piece of the White Sox system, I over-ranked a number of minor leaguers last year, and this is probably a better reflection of the trade value of a very good prospect with legitimate risks who isn’t yet big-league ready.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | 2022 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 41 | 26 | Yoan Moncada | 22 | +2.2 Pre-Arb |
+3.1 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Pre-Arb |
+3.6 Arb1 |
+3.8 Arb2 |
| 42 | 25 | Jose Quintana | 28 | +3.8 $8.8 M |
+3.8 $10.5 M |
+3.6 $10.5 M |
||
| 43 | – | Robbie Ray | 25 | +3.4 Arb1 |
+3.5 Arb2 |
+3.7 Arb3 |
||
| 44 | – | Anthony Rendon | 27 | +4.4 Arb3 |
+4.2 Arb4 |
|||
| 45 | 20 | Xander Bogaerts | 24 | +3.8 Arb2 |
+3.6 Arb3 |
|||
| 46 | 28 | Jackie Bradley Jr. | 27 | +3.2 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 47 | – | Marcus Stroman | 26 | +2.2 Arb2 |
+2.5 Arb3 |
+2.5 Arb4 |
||
| 48 | – | James Paxton | 28 | +2.8 Arb2 |
+2.9 Arb3 |
+2.8 Arb4 |
||
| 49 | – | Aaron Nola | 24 | +2.9 Pre-Arb |
+3.2 Arb1 |
+3.3 Arb2 |
+3.0 Arb3 |
|
| 50 | 47 | Jake Lamb | 26 | +2.6 Arb1 |
+2.7 Arb2 |
+2.6 Arb3 |
Dave is the Managing Editor of FanGraphs.
Oh joyous day the trade value rankings!
What a Francis(co Lindor) day! Callooh! Cahill*!
*not appearing on this list
I hate me as much as you hate me.
I’m totally stoked. All we need is the guy who does the angiograms of the players on the list.
Yes, hopefully no problems show up on the x-rays!
2017 Anagram Value: #50 to #41
#50 Bleak Jam
#49 A No, A La, A No
#48 Manja Sexpot
#47 Must Ram Carson
#46 Jar Jar Icky Bleed
#45 Extra Dang Sober
#44 Non-Handy Tenor
#43 Barrio Bey
#42 Jan’s Equation
#41 Oo! A Candy Man!
Love your anagram work on the trade value series! #49 needs an “R” and one less “A” though.
Good catch Jason. Guess we’ll have to go with;
*#49 Anana Rolo
Thanks! I was extra dang sober whilst reading. =)
#47 can also be “Mrs. Cunt’s Aroma”
I’ll correct my previous statement on the HM page about Harper and Machado not being tradeable for a top 50 talent: I have a very difficult time believing Boston wouldn’t do Bradley for Harper or Machado straight up, and I have just as difficult of a time believing Washington and Baltimore would consider the offer on their end.
It’s a minor quibble to be sure. But I think that in the case of a 2017 contender like Boston Or Washington (or a hopeful contender in Baltimore), this whole ‘teams wouldn’t trade player A for player B’ doesn’t quite work in this case.
And of course now I double check the honorable mention explanation and see I’m interpreting this wrong and the list doesn’t mean what I think it means.
Hooray for a lack of reading comprehension on my part.
I think Dave’s caveat about team needs comes into play here: Would the Reds trade JBJ for Harper? No. Now for a team somewhere between the Reds and Red Sox, it’s closer, but probably a slight lean towards JBJ.
How about this: Would Arizona trade Lamb for Machado? I think they would because of where they are in the standings on 7/10/2017; but that doesn’t change the fact that Lamb has more trade value than Machado league wide/in a vacuum, etc.
…would any team in baseball hesitate to trade Lamb for Machado?
No, they would not.
Reds wouldn’t buy JBJ OR Harper, though. At the trade deadline, you should consider the value a hypothetical buyer would give to the players. I think if the Red Sox could flip JBJ for Harper they would do it in a split second.
You’re right that context plays a major factor here, but this list is supposed to aim to smooth it over by considering the trade value for said players league-wide. Certain teams would definitively pay more for the extra control of Bradley, so that factors in too.
There is one final factor at work here. As this series notes, most of these values exist in the world of fantasy, as they regard players who are unlikely to be traded. Washington wouldn’t even consider Bradley because it isn’t just about which player has the most pure controlled value. It wants to win now, so Harper’s superiority is more important, and Harper is a figurehead of the team, and you don’t trade a player like that unless someone is greatly OVERpaying.
Sticking with Boston, there are players who have more trade value than Mookie Betts, but Boston would never think of a straight-up swap of Betts for one of those guys. Betts is a known quantity on the team, so even if the other player is theoretically more valuable the difference wouldn’t be worth the resulting upheaval.
That’s why it’s rather rare to see trades of prospects or trades of star players, because they involve similar types of players and at that stage teams would prefer to stick with their own.
There are a few guys that Boston absolutely would trade Mookie Betts for. But those teams wouldn’t make the trade.
I would love a Boston Salmon Feast
Who? There are definitely at least a few guys who have clear higher trade value, but why would Boston make such a trade? Why would someone with a player with a hair less value than Betts trade said player for Betts?
As I said before, there could be a value gain, but there is potential downside in player transition and roster/clubhouse appeal. When you already have such a valuable piece, why would you aim to at best squeeze a little more value while GREATLY increasing the risk? The upside isn’t worth the downside.
I might be overlooking someone with such a clearly superior franchise value, but my guess is anyone you would present would be the kind of guy neither team would ever discuss (this harkens back to the days of Bill Simmons and his NBA trade value chart, when a Tim Duncan might theoretically be worth more than a Kobe Bryant, but neither team would ever seriously consider a 1 for 1 swap).
As good as Harper, Machado, or Donaldson are, do you think they presently have more trade value than Chris Sale did over the winter? I think it’s pretty clearly no, given the extra year of control he came with and his cheaper salaries. And Bradley was off limits in the Sale deal. No one was willing to build a package around one of their good young cheap big leaguers, and everyone just offered minor league prospects instead.
Teams just don’t want to trade good young MLB players for great players on short-term contracts. I think there’s a decent argument to be made that maybe some teams should be willing to do that, but right now, they just aren’t.
Boston made that trade so they would be a better team in 2017, 2018, and 2019. I think they were trying to make the trade without weakening their present team in the process, which they were able to do.
Do you think JBJ had more trade value over the winter than Chris Sale? I don’t think Washington would have been willing to offer the same package they offered Chicago for Chris Sale to Boston for JBJ.
Right; that’s kind of the point. Teams that are adding want to add to what they already have, not just upgrade from good to great. That’s why we don’t see these Bradley-for-Harper type trades. When teams are attempting to make improvements, they generally decline to include important players off their big league roster. Which is why I don’t believe that Boston trades Bradley for Harper right now, even though it would make them better.
In terms of what Washington would offer, I agree they wouldn’t put their Sale offer on the table for Bradley. Sale’s also ranked higher on this list than Bradley is.
But I do think that what Washington actually did was instructive. When they couldn’t get Sale, they gave up a very similar package to what they were offering for for Sale to get Adam Eaton instead, who isn’t nearly as good as Sale is, but came with lower salaries and more control.
In other words, a win-now team continued to place a premium on cost and control, even though it brought them back a lesser player.
To put it another way than the nice answer Dave Cameron put on here, you don’t plug a hole by creating a hole. It doesn’t necessarily help Boston to add to the rotation by creating a hole in CF or RF, just as it was ridiculous of Phillies fans to think Mookie Betts was a fair return to ask for for Cole Hamels (at the time, Betts wasn’t fully proven, but he had locked in his role for the MLB team, meaning that the Phillies were asking for Boston to take away from its lineup for pitching).
But you ranked Moncada ahead of Bradley in your 2016 trade value series…
I think they would consider trading Bradley for Harper as a win-now move, but not for Machado…because Bradley has been hitting better than Machado so far. Everyone says, “oh yeah, he’ll come back” but if you are going to win now you shouldn’t be trading a guy hitting well for a guy who (for whatever reason) is clearly not performing up to the same standard.
Brought this up in the honorable mention post. Moncada is a sticking point for me – the guy has, at least in my opinion, a profile with a significant bust rate, his position still is TBD, and he hasn’t had a true debut in the majors yet.
I really can’t believe that GMs wouldn’t ask for a larger haul for guys who were just as premium prospects as Moncada, like Swanson or Mazara, and who’ve already at least shown flashes of success in the majors (or in Mazara’s case, has proven outright that he can stick), just because they weren’t superstars in their first 600 ABs. Are GMs really as fickle as the public to the point that former top prospects end up behind current top prospects that quickly? I really doubt it.
Do we have a list of trades involving former top ten prospects with 1 or so years of ML experience? Delmon Young comes to mind, but that may not quite be apples to apples.
P.s. I hate being that guy who just has to quibble about *something*, these posts are awesome Dave, and I just find this question interesting 🙂
I think you’re over thinking this.
Moncada has 6 years of control compared to Mazara’s 4 years (after this season). That alone is going to give Moncada a huge leg up in terms of value. And even if there’s a higher chance that Mazara is a above average major leaguer over the next 4 seasons, his ceiling is still lower than Moncada’s. You can plug in and play with percentages and WAR and future/surplus value of the two players from there. Most of the time Moncada’s going to yield a higher surplus; even if his bust rate is higher. The extra years of control + higher probably of Moncada being a 6 WAR player, etc.
Moncada doesn’t seem like one of those near-instant greats like Braun or Trout, I think he’ll have some significant struggles with contact & plate discipline, that in the first couple years he’ll put up some useful fantasy numbers but you’d be surprised to see the wRC+ that goes with them, so I think you have to take into account not only his time in the minors but a non-negligible adjustment period when he does get there. That probably nixes a good chunk of the extra value he’s getting in years +5 and +6, when Mazara or Swanson have potentially moved on.
I guess I just don’t see how we should devalue players who are already ‘figuring it out’ in the majors vs. players who still have to go through that process. Guys like Bregman (I am assuming he’s not going to show up in the top 40), Swanson & Mazara, who are taking their lumps but have also been taking tangible steps towards ML success seem very valuable to me just for the fact that they have done or are doing just that. You can look at Mazara and see Corey Dickerson’s 2017 stats around the corner (except with better plate discipline!) without feeling like you’re engaging in *too* much wishful thinking, precisely because of how he’s spent the past year plus. I’d pay more for Mazara precisely because someone else was already saddled with working through his adjustment to the majors, and if I get him now I don’t have to deal with the extra uncertainty.
To illustrate what I’m saying a bit better, one of the crazy things I found about the Carlos Gomez & Aaron Hicks trades is that MN basically ate the downside years and sold the upside years – you would assume most GMs wouldn’t make this mistake.
I know this is splitting hairs, it’s a rankings list so it’s all splitting hairs 🙂 There is obviously a lot of room for me to be wrong on Moncada and too optimistic on the guys in the majors.
Because even if you suspect it’s necessary, there’s no guarantee that the struggle will occur until it does. Cody Bellinger for example is a player everyone expected would have a rough entry process and who hasn’t yet.
When those players click immediately they are extremely valuable. Moncada has a chance, even if it’s just 15 or 20%, to make a leap.
Mazara had already struggled and burned 2 years of prearb.
Even if moncada probably does that, he has a chance not to. Mazara will never get his time back.
Moncada already had a chance to click immediately and he did the polar opposite.
That was all of 20 plate appearances.
I think Herrera has more of an issue with Moncada being the #1 prospect in baseball. He (and I) just don’t think he’s that good.
That’s a big part of it – I think he is remarkably overrated because we too often give stats a pass if there’s tools & physical projection to dream on.
I think there’s a larger question here of what prospect would really be more valuable than a one-year-out ex-prospect who’s shown he can stick in the majors. Maybe it’s just me being risk averse, but I think you need to look at guys like Amed Rosario or (at the time) Carlos Correa. Young guys who are almost MLB-ready, who have a safe offensive baseline due to speed and contact skills, projectability in the power department, and have no questions about their ability to remain at a premium defensive position. Those guys stand a greater chance to help from day one but still can develop into stars- I’d honestly rather have Rosario in my org than Moncada for just that reason.
More than that, I think we always forget that most prospects bust. Young major leaguers with upside should be way more valuable, even if they aren’t. Guys like Bregman and Benintendi are going to be good! We just don’t know how much. Moncada? We have no idea.
If Moncada is overrated, doesn’t that mean actual MLB teams value him very highly, compared to your opinion? Isn’t this series about MLB teams, and how they value the players, not about how good any of us think they are?
I think that’s the confusion point in this thread. A lot of people are arguing that against the valuation of players because they don’t agree with the value that Dave estimates MLB teams place on these guys. That’s not what the series is about.
Moncada’s a scout’s dream, with many very loud tools. But anytime you hear something about a prospect like “he’ll be one of the best players in the majors if he completely overhauls his swing to cut down on strikeouts and add more loft to his swing, oh, and he needs more work on defense” then perhaps we should be a little more cautious.
Also, we should always be skeptical of prospects who strike out a lot.
Like Kris Bryant and Aaron Judge? If you’re going to point out the guys that haven’t panned out, at least be fair and point out that a some highly rated guys figure it out and become MVPs.
Obviously Moncada may not end up living up to the hype, but busting for Moncada is likely ‘only’ being a 2 WAR player. While that wouldn’t crack any top 50 trade list, it’s essentially what Mazara’s been in his two years in the majors. And, again, Moncada’s got two extra years of control.
While I agree that sadtrombone’s “we should always be skeptical of prospects who strike out a lot” statement was too extreme, in Moncada’s case he has not demonstrated the game power that Bryant or Judge did in the minor leagues. He has a prolonged history of hitting more ground balls than fly balls, although that has changed for the first time this season so it’s possible that he will be tapping into more power going forward. Unfortunately his home/road splits are concerning, especially when you consider that Charlotte is the second most hitter friendly stadium in the International League. Moncada’s floor, especially in his first two seasons, is significantly lower than 2 WAR.
Yes. Just like them. We should always be skeptical of prospects who strike out a lot. We were right to be skeptical of Aaron Judge. Ironically, people were fond of pointing out had actually cut his strikeout rate in AAA. But as a more general point, just because one prospect with contact issues beats the odds doesn’t discount the large number of other prospects who had trouble making contact. He’s the exception, not the rule.
Bryant’s a slightly different case. His minor league stats were so insanely dominant I think everyone was right to think he was a blue-chip major leaguer.
Also, we have no idea what Moncada is going to be. He is not a “safe” prospect. Saying he has a floor of a 2-WAR player isn’t right, because the contact and defense questions mean he could end up providing no value at all (except as a runner). He could be a 6-WAR player or a 0-WAR player. This isn’t like Mitch Haniger where we could say “he has a high floor”.
Okay, all that aside, he’s still clearly a top prospect. Just because I thought he was the 2nd-best prospect in the Sale trade (behind Kopech) doesn’t mean he’s still not a Top 10 or Top 20 prospect. It just means I’m skeptical of guys with contact problems.
i agree — there’s an apples to oranges issue there.
the central point for me of OH’s comment, however, is that this analysis lacks a variance estimate. i’ve been in the risk industry for a couple decades now, and that is the central difficulty really in most/all of baseball analytics that makes the projections hard to put to work (and i love the site of course). so much can be gleaned from a data-driven analysis of baseball that is good and positive and helpful information. but without a proper (or even cursory) treatment of the variance it is divorced its most powerful aspects.
is Moncada #41 on this list with a 90% confidence in plus or minus 2 spots, or plus/minus 20? (the changes in the list from last year suggest twenty may be conservative.) is his five-year WAR projection 16.3 with a 90% window of 3 wins or of 20? those are very different pieces of information, and one can be badly fooled by cutting off the plus/minus and assuming its all the same.
this is an analysis we/Fangraphs can do at a cursory level just through observation of past failure rates in prediction in this list, as well as a more granular level using observed error rates in the projections of the counting stats that feed into WAR projections. all these stats have a significant history over many players, making real error estimates workable and relevant. so why are we not doing them?
You’re underrating the unique profile of Moncada, as well as his substantial upside. Your mistake is in claiming that Swanson and Mazara were, as prospects, placed on the same level as Moncada, which isn’t true. Moncada was one of those rather rare “superprospects”, and the only reason he wasn’t the unanimous #1 prospect entering the season was because of the equally unique case of Andrew Benintendi, who combined traits of being an elite (but not super-elite) pure prospect with the bonus certainty of almost the maximum amount of successful MLB experience possible without losing rookie eligibility. Swanson and Mazara were at one point elite prospects, but Moncada was and is a tier above (and not many make it there).
Yes, Moncada’s superior upside to that of Swanson and Mazara combined with his not-yet-started service clock renders him more valuable than either of those two players…not that we’re talking a huge difference here between #41 and guys who probably were given solid consideration for this list.
We saw this unique profile go similarly rocketing through the minors very recently in the form of Byron Buxton, and while Moncada has some edge in power, Buxton never struck out at the rate Moncada has until he reached the majors. That’s not to say Moncada is doomed to have similar struggles, it’s just that the toolbox guys who are a scouting wet-dream aren’t necessarily the best major leaguers, especially if we’re all glossing over a 30% K-rate in AA/AAA on the assumption that ‘he’ll figure it out as he goes’.
I get at this point that you don’t like Moncada, and that’s fine. But you’re either ignoring or underestimating the possibility that Moncada pulls something like a Kris Bryant and cuts his K rate to the low 20s or high teens. I don’t know what the odds of that happening are, but at 22 Bryant struck out 28.6% of the time in AAA, then 30% at 23 in the majors (with a 136 wRC+ and a 6.6 WAR season), then 22% at 24 again in the majors. So sure, maybe Moncada is “just” a .275/.360/.440 with 20 steals, but that’s still a pretty darn good player. Add in two more years of control, plus the, say, 35% chance that he’s Cano2.0… it’s not that complicated.
I don’t see how it makes sense to use Buxton as an example. We’re talking about ACTUAL likely trade value, not whether the market’s value is justified. Buxton might be a lesson against valuing toolsy players so much, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are valued as such.
Buxton never, ever would have been viewed with the same trade value as a Swanson or Mazara, so I stand by what I said about why Moncada has different value. You may or may not be right with what you said in terms of what this means for Moncada’s future, but that has nothing to do with his trade value at the present time.
While it may be irrelevant, I would also argue that the perceived flaw in Moncada is overrated. I do NOT think it isn’t a potential problem, but I think people are assigning far too much certainty to it. Moncada is not like other prospects, including Buxton, in that he has received less U.S. professional instruction relative to his age than other prospects of his talent level have AND given that he missed significant time just getting to the U.S. Is it really fair to think he may (or may not) solve his strikeout problems in the way of other prospects when he hasn’t developed those problems under similar circumstances. I firmly say no. It is a mystery, but that’s better than a firmly treacherous profile.
You’re wrong in saying that Buxton “never, ever” would have been viewed with the same trade value as a Swanson or Mazara. Such a short-term memory you have.
jjstrikes: He’s saying that Buxton was viewed as a significantly higher value than those two, which is true. That being said, Moncada’s higher than normal bust potential is real and I’ve been warning about it longer than most. Here is what I wrote about him last December:
your hard on for moncada being overrated and you seeing something every other scout doesn’t is just tiring at this point.
you discuss his FB rate in the write up you quoted at nausea. Can you give us an update on his FB and ground ball rates. It’s almost like he’s improved as a 21-22 year old; who would have thought it.
Rational Fan: The only one here with a bias is you, dude. You rant against me every time I post about a prospect because you’re still furious that I proved you wrong in the past, but you need to let it go. As for Moncada, it’s true that his fly ball rate is substantially higher this season, which is great, but his contact rate continues to be terrible and his overall numbers have been greatly boosted by his home park. Take a look at his splits.
No bias? All you have been is critical of Moncada who is widely regarded as the best prospect in the sport… somehow I’m the bias one though.
Now his numbers are boosted by a stadium that doesn’t even favor hitters?
https://www.milb.com/milb/news/x-factors-triple-a-ballpark-effects/c-66858162/t-185364810
Got it. And yes, I don’t think all that highly of your ability to scout players vs actual professional scouts who are very high on Moncada. I also don’t find your breakdown of his mechanics intelligent or sensical. Maybe others do.
To say that I’ve only been critical of Moncada is blatantly false, as I have repeatedly praised his talent, and I feel like I have justified every concern about him that I have raised. Given how much you obviously dislike me, if you could poke any holes in my analysis then I’m sure you would.
You might want to link the stadium he actually plays in rather than the old one the team abandoned. Here, I’ll do it for you.
You didn’t have anything against me until I made some comments critical of White Sox prospects, at which point I suddenly became incompetent even though you’ve never actually bothered to explain where I’m wrong about anything in my analysis.
Buxton was going to be the next Mike Trout. The Moncada hype is similar to the Buxton hype for sure.
Swanson has a 73 wRC+ in his first 480 plate appearances in the big leagues. No one is giving up on him, but his value around the league is definitely lower than it was a year ago.
With Mazara, I don’t think he was ever considered a Moncada-like prospect. His upside just isn’t quite where Moncada’s is, and while there’s more short-term value, he’s not a good big leaguer yet, so teams aren’t going to pay a premium because he can help them win right now. He’s a long-term play, just with less service time left and lower upside than Moncada.
How close is Guerrero to entering the Moncada-like prospect tier?
This is why I’m skeptical of the Moncada hype. I don’t think Guerrero will *ever* get the same hype as Moncada, even though he’s going to rake. Even though he’s the son of a future hall of famer, Moncada’s prospect pedigree is that sticky and Guerrero was not considered that. We are far, far too slow to revise our assessments of players like Moncada.
Moncada has been a good/great player outside a SSS with the Red Sox. He dropped 15 spots from 2016 to 2017 in this series. His projected 5 -year WAR has gone up slightly, but that seems mostly due to getting another peak year in there as his short term WAR projections have gone down.
I suspect if Guerrero continues what he’s doing in minors until the 2018 trade value list, he’ll be more valued than Number 41 next year. Though, I expect he will slow down some.
What is there to revise? His tools are still jaw dropping, his upside is still massive, his room for growth is still ample, and his progress has been steady. He seems to be in a similar position as he was last year, except that his proximity to the majors is improved. While there is still a substantial difference in his likely present ability and what he could become, what has he done to merit a negative revision on his outlook?
It is a fundamental aspect of human nature to over value promise amongst the most promising. This series should catch that.
Most agree that Vlad Jr. is going to be a hell of a hitter, but a) he’s average/below-average on the bases and on defense (Longenhagen gave him 40/30 and 40/45, respectively), and b) he’s only 18 in A-ball right now, and it might be too tough to gauge value on someone who realistically won’t take an MLB at-bat until late 2019 or early 2020.
Yeah, I’ve always loved Mazara…but it’s just silly to claim that he was viewed similarly to Moncada.
I feel like I should argue against almost every player on this list. But it is probably just right. My only quibble is how easy you made it seem that a CF could just post a 120 wRC+ (Bradley). There are only 5 CF eligible ahead of him (including Trout) and 3 are not CF material (Conforto, Cutch and Springer) and none defend like him. I think he might end up looking a touch low.
While I agree Springer doesn’t defend like JBJ, he is capable of manning the position.
He probably could. Good athlete.
I wonder how the humidor in Arizona is going to change players value going forward. I know teams look at advanced metrics that account for the fields, but I do not think people anywhere turn a complete blind eye to counting stats.
They shelved the humidor, for this year at least.
I guess they’re too scared that it will throw the team off their 2017 success.
Why no 2023/Arb3 control established for Moncada? He’s definitely under control at least that long and likely past the super 2 now even with the Sept callup last year isn’t he?
The boxes just show five years out.
I’ll comment on two of the players I am (naturally) most familiar with here:
Bogaerts- I think the best thing going for him for his trade value is that he is indeed just 24 in spite of his shorter amount of control. He has shown a remarkable evolution frequency over his MLB career, so between his age, anticipated upside as a prospect, and success so far, there is still more major upside to his profile than there typically is with a player with two more control years. I can’t speak to how likely he is to make good on that upside, but if he breaks through (as could happen any time…or not) to a 30+ HR bat while sticking at SS his value profile would change significantly, and I think teams would include that in his trade profile.
Moncada- I think you gave too much weight to the Sale trade, and here’s why: recency bias. If you go back and read what was being said about Moncada this offseason, there was a pretty clear overreaction to his ridiculously small MLB cup of coffee. People were actually drawing judgement from that final look we had of Moncada last season, and recency bias was very clearly the reason why. Given that recency bias throws off judgement, and that it likely factored in at least a little in the Sale trade, it’s probably safe to say that his “true” value is at least a bit higher than the trade indicates. To put it another way, that MLB “failure” was no longer “recent” once this season started, and so the bias and the negative hit it put on Moncada would have worn off, AND teams now have this season’s worth of additional minor league time by which to judge the player, so it seems safe to say (for me at least) that he has gained value since he was traded.
I would imagine that Dave’s sources are smarter than the average guy who thinks that Moncada’s stock fell much just 20 ABs after being rushed to MLB.
I don’t think this has anything to do with sources. I’m reacting to what DC said. He wrote above that he used the Sale trade as evidence that Moncada’s ranking last year was a bit high, and so revised the trade value. I am arguing that Moncada’s trade value was artificially lowered a bit due to a well-understood psychological phenomenon. If I am right, Moncada’s seeming reduced value in the Sale trade (if that is even a correct assessment, as one team can always willingly overpay another to secure a deal) should not affect his current value, and that has nothing to do with source information.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I’ve always been under the impression that this series is about profile valuations, not sources revealing the MLB market value of players.
I’ve always been under the impression that Dave gets input from front office people and other insiders about his rankings. Re: the sources and what Dave actually said: you got me. I still think it would be easy for the Sox FO’s to throw out Moncada’s ML numbers, but I suppose that could get into the subconscious, particularly for the Red Sox, who were burned.
The Sale trade literally defined the market for the specific player in question.
I know it doesn’t REALLY matter with the last 5 or so guys on this list, because so many people could be there instead, but Wood seems to be around the same exact standing with talent level and injury status as James Paxton.
A friend in the game made the exact same Wood/Paxton comparison, and Wood did make honorable mentions. But he’s an FA after 2019 instead of after 2020, like Paxton, and the stuff isn’t as good. I don’t think there’s a big gap here, and it’s probably fine to prefer Wood, but I think the better velocity and extra year give a slight edge to Paxton.
Oh I thought Paxton had a year less similar to Wood. Like I said it didn’t really matter to begin with, just that they both seem very similar, but that extra year makes a lot of sense to give him the extra push onto the top 50. Thanks for the response!
I am sure I am missing something about contract structure, but how is Quintana guaranteed $17.7M after this year? Couldn’t a team pay him the $8.8M next year and buyout his option at $1M?
That looks like a bug in the code that calculated that part. Good catch, we’ll get that fixed.
Not only do I enjoy the article, but if I had time this afternoon, I’d be hitting re-fresh for the comments for hours…
I feel like any team that is competitive this year, and they have a hole at SS and a hole at RF, is going to prefer Harper to Boegarts. And any team that is not competitive is not really going to be that interested in trading for either of them.
And I think that is true for all the players with 2.5-3.5 years left who are on this list. I’d say the team takes Harper if they are trying to win this year, and would not be in on these guys if they aren’t going to win this year.
I just don’t think this is true. Teams care deeply about extended windows to winning, and they’ll take a slightly less good player and the extra control (plus the cost savings) over maximizing present value. Look at every GM out there talking about how they want to add a starting pitcher, but are only interested in guys they can keep for multiple years. The value of short-term acquisitions has diminished now that every team is looking long-term.
I don’t think any of those players can really be called “slightly less good” than Harper.
The exception to this rule was the Chapman-to-Cubs trade last summer. It was one of the most popular franchises in sports history massively overpaying to maximize their chance to win their first championship in 108 years. Not exactly repeatable market circumstances. People need to stop using that trade as a barometer for relief pitcher trade value, and I am happy to see that you are leaving all relief pitchers off the top 50 for that reason.
Good point!
We should be looking at the Miller, Giles and Kimbrel trades.
Moancada has guaranteed dollars, no?
Signing bonuses are paid by the signing team, even if they are deferred into the future, and the responsibility to pay them does not transfer with a trade.
Sorry, I know this is the lowest form of comment, but am I seeing this right that Freddie Freeman missed the list completely last year? Like not even an honorable mention?
You are not seeing that correctly. Freeman is somewhere between 1 and 40.
Was he? I don’t see him here! (Meaning the chart at the bottom of the post.)
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/2016-trade-value-1-to-10/
Hint: look very closely at the title of the article in that URL.
I did! It’s the 2016 trade value series, numbers 1-10, containing a chart listing the entire 2016 top 50 trade values.
Looks like he was mentioned in the intro as a guy who is “simply moving down at the natural pace due to [his] march towards [his] more expensive years.” Which, fair enough, and who would have predicted he’d be the best hitter in MLB over the past year? Seems like that’s going to put him on the list this year, though.
So, you believe that Robbie Ray and Aaron Nola would bring back more in a trade than Bryce Harper, Manny Machado and Josh Donaldson?
Yes.
and Gerrit Cole, come on man.
I’d trade Lamb, Paxton and Bradley straight up for Harper without hesitation.
Who knew Dave Stewart read and commented at Fangraphs?
Reben Amaro Jr. does too!
Loll, that Cool Lester ain’t me. If he was he’d know that Paxson doesn’t pitch for the D backs
Yeah, I phrased that terribly.
I’d trade each of Lamb, Paxton and Bradley straight up for Harper, in a one-for-one trade, without hesitation.
Aside from Moncada (who I am clearly the low guy on), the only guy I’m scratching my heads on is Quintana. I strongly suspect that GMs still see Quintana as a legitimate #2–hence Dave’s rating here, but it is very hard to look at his performance this year and say he’ll be back to that level. Someone will almost certainly be willing to give up a haul for him, so in that sense I think Dave is right…but I just don’t agree.
Quintana’s FIP/DRA this year is 4.00/3.96, both much lower than his ERA (his ERA-/FIP- are 101/89). And for the most part, he’s been good since the end of May. I think the only concern would be the uptick in walks, but strike outs are up too.
My guess as far as the differing views on Quintana are tied to what your source is. fWAR has always liked him more than WARP; and that might be a reason why he’s still on the Sox. Either way, he’s a #2 being paid like a #4 and has been durable. IMO, there’s somewhere around $70m in surplus value with Quintana.
You took the words out of my mouth. Quintana had a rough start – maybe the trade talk, maybe not – but he has settled in nicely and has been more or less the pitcher he’s been for the past 5 years after the rough start to the season. I would say given his track record, and his durability, that his draft stock has not dropped much if at all because of the slow start.
As a White Sox fan, i’d almost prefer they kept Quintana as opposed to forcing a trade. He’s signed long enough to extend into their contention window, imO>
I’m pretty sure this is the rationale everyone else is using too. My counter is that you can throw out any “bad stretch” for any pitcher and they look better. Unless it was obviously tied to something that won’t recur (like a freak injury) I think it’s fair to consider that as part of his recent past.
But the bad stretch only matters if you think it changes his expected future performance. He’s had an uptick in walks, but that’s at least slightly offset by a similar uptick in strikeouts. His homerun rate is up but his hard hit rate, exit velocity, barrel rate and flyball rate match last year almost exactly, so I don’t think there’s much to be concerned about there. His velocity and stuff are the same. There isn’t much reason to believe he’s changed as a pitcher.
This would be a fun Fangraphs article… is anyone’s HR/9 or FB/HR rate down from 2014/2015 to 2017? FWIW, up for Quintana, Kershaw, Sale, Kluber, and Archer (looks like down for Strasburg (’14 to ’17)).
It would be really cool to reverse-engineer teams’ decisions on a model of: do they seem to use a “slow” projection model like Zips or Marcel, or do they use a “fast” projection like “past three months”.
Zero in on stretch-run rentals: do teams value them based on who’s “hitting better right now” (this year or past month), or based on a rest-of-season projection.
Avoiding recency bias is really hard.
Arguing that Jackie Bradley Jr. would be traded for more today than Bryce Harper would be is absolutely insane.
This isn’t fantasy baseball.
I know, right? Can you believe anyone would even consider paying nearly as much for Adam Eaton as they would for Chris Sale? That’s lunacy. Would never happen!
Dave, your finally right about something!
Wait…is your premise here that the Eaton package was “nearly as much” as their offer for Sale, which included Victor Robles?
adding in a consensus top-15 prospect definitely doesn’t seem like a comparable deal
I just feel sad for the Pirates as three of their top 3 young players have terribly gone downhill fast and fell off the list. (Marte, Cole, Polanco) with no signs of improvement any time soon.
But I’m really curious where McCutchen will land this year. Was assuming he’d be in the 50s or just missed the list group.
It will be interesting as it’s very likely he’ll be traded soon and wondering if his current reassurgance has helped his value at all
I expect that’ll be the last mention of McCutchen in this series.
I’ve grown to love FanGraph’s comments as much as the articles.
I’m a little surprised we haven’t seen Luis Severino mentioned yet. Seems like he would fit in pretty well with the Stromans and the Nolas.
I guess we know Jose Quintana’s value now.