2023 Trade Value: Nos. 31-40

As is tradition at FanGraphs, we’re using the lead-up to the trade deadline to take stock of the top 50 players in baseball by trade value. For a more detailed introduction to this year’s exercise, as well as a look at the players who fell just short of the top 50, be sure to read the Introduction and Honorable Mentions piece, which can be found in the widget above.
For those of you who have been reading the Trade Value Series the last few seasons, the format should look familiar. For every player, you’ll see a table with the player’s projected five-year WAR from 2024-2028, courtesy of Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS projections. The table will also include the player’s guaranteed money, if any, the year through which their team has contractual control of them, last year’s rank (if applicable), and then projections, contract status, and age for each individual season through 2028 (if the player is under contract or team control for those seasons). Last year’s rank includes a link to the relevant 2022 post. Thanks are due to Sean Dolinar for his technical wizardry. At the bottom of the page, there is a grid showing all of the players who have been ranked up to this point.
One note on the rankings: Particularly at the bottom of the list, there isn’t a lot of room between the players. The ordinal rankings clearly matter, and we put them there for a reason, but there isn’t much of a gap between, say, the 39th-ranked player and the 60th. The magnitude of the differences in this part of the list is quite small. Several of the folks I talked to might prefer a player in the honorable mentions section to one on the back end of the list, or vice versa. I think the broad strokes are correct, and this is my opinion of the best order, but with so many players carrying roughly equivalent value, disagreements abounded.
With that out of the way, let’s get to the next batch of players.
| Five-Year WAR | 11.3 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2028 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 25 | 2.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 26 | 2.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2026 | 27 | 2.3 | Arb 1 |
| 2027 | 28 | 2.2 | Arb 2 |
| 2028 | 29 | 2.2 | Arb 3 |
I’ll be honest up front: This is one where my initial evaluation differed from the crowd, and I think the crowd is right. I had Brown right on the fringe of the top 50, but everyone really loves his fastball shape, and that’s a big tiebreaker in pitching evaluation these days. It doesn’t hurt that his slider consistently tops 90 mph, and he even has a huge 12-6 curveball to complete the package. Some pitchers need to maximize their best pitch to excel; Brown has the luxury of multiple standout options, which broadens his path to success. He could turn into a fastball-slider monster in the Justin Verlander mold (hey, have you guys heard he throws like Verlander?), or emphasize his two breaking balls like Clayton Kershaw.
Obviously, Brown isn’t on that level just yet. He almost certainly won’t ever reach that level. Compare him to Bryce Miller, someone I’d previously grouped him with, though, and you can see what I mean. If Miller’s good, it will be because of his fastball. If that fastball isn’t quite up to snuff, it won’t work. Having two ways to succeed means Brown’s floor is higher than you might think; he’d need to experience multiple points of failure before things went irreparably wrong, and that counts for a lot when we’re talking about this many years of team control.
If Brown is even just an average pitcher – and he’s been much better than that this year – he’s valuable for the sheer length of time he’ll be around. The combination of length and a low chance of failure resonates with me. One last point in his favor? He’s been consistently improving his greatest weakness — command — since reaching the big leagues. I’m not sure what Brown will look like as a finished product, but I feel good about the fact that he’ll be a solid pitcher one way or another.
| Five-Year WAR | 15.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2026 |
| Previous Rank | #27 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 25 | 3.1 | Arb 1 |
| 2025 | 26 | 3.1 | Arb 2 |
| 2026 | 27 | 3.1 | Arb 3 |
I put Kirk 39th because “confused shrug” isn’t a valid ranking. He looked like a great hitter who needed to figure out how to play defense last year, but he’s gone ice cold offensively in 2023, and the way it’s happening has to worry the Blue Jays. He’s always hit too many grounders, but the power he got to despite that batted ball mix has vanished. His thump is more gap-to-gap than over-the-wall, so a step down leaves him blooping and grounding his way to a desultory offensive line.
Why not lop him off the list entirely, then? For someone who had a lot of DH risk as a minor leaguer, Kirk has adapted to the rigors of major league catching pretty well. He’s a solid blocker and an average thrower, neither of which looked likely two years ago. He also displays good receiving instincts. Alejandro Kirk, above-average defender? I still don’t quite believe it, but it seems like more of a possibility than I thought it was a year ago.
Meanwhile, I don’t know what weird malaise he’s working through offensively, but he hit so much in the minors and in previous major league seasons that I don’t mind betting on a rebound. He’s now displayed the capability to hit and field a premium position. That’s a rare combo, and he’s under team control for so long still that this is as low as I could put Kirk on the list, awful season and all.
| Five-Year WAR | 9.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2029 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 23 | 1.6 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 24 | 1.8 | Pre-Arb |
| 2026 | 25 | 1.9 | Pre-Arb |
| 2027 | 26 | 2.1 | Arb 1 |
| 2028 | 27 | 2.2 | Arb 2 |
Neto is the player I feel least sure of on this entire list. The reason is likely obvious: He has almost no track record to speak of. He was the Angels’ first pick in the 2022 draft and already has more major league plate appearances than minor league plate appearances. That makes for a lot of uncertainty about whether he’s as good as he’s looked so far this year, and as you can see, ZiPS isn’t quite bought in yet.
Ultimately, though, both scouts and defensive evaluation systems think Neto is a solid shortstop, and that goes a long way towards making me comfortable. He hit well in his minor league stopover, and his underlying statistics look right at home in the majors. He has roughly average raw power, but a good sense of the strike zone makes his in-game output better than you might expect. I think he’ll post average or better walk rates in the long run, though likely with his fair share of strikeouts as well.
That might not sound exciting, but an average bat/average glove shortstop is something like a three-win player annually. Neto won’t hit free agency until after the 2029 season; that’s a lot of production even if he doesn’t turn into a perennial All-Star. I dropped him down a bit just because of the short track record and associated risk of becoming a bust, but multiple people I talked to would have grouped him up with Matt McLain and Anthony Volpe, who (spoiler alert) appear higher on this list.
| Five-Year WAR | 12.9 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2027 |
| Previous Rank | #18 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 26 | 2.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 27 | 2.8 | Arb 1 |
| 2026 | 28 | 2.7 | Arb 2 |
| 2027 | 29 | 2.5 | Arb 3 |
Ah, last year’s Zach Neto. That’s not a perfect comparison – Peña is older, for one thing – but Peña burst onto the scene last year as a plus fielder who could hit a little. Like I mentioned, a huge chunk of team control for a player who can handle shortstop without embarrassing himself offensively is a combination that will always be in demand. And I think Peña is a lot better than unembarrassing defensively, even if Statcast is down on his 2023 performance so far.
In Peña’s case, “can he hit” is still an open question. He’s tremendously aggressive at the plate, which leads to bad swings and weak contact. He’s been strangely inept against fastballs this year, a trend I don’t think will continue, but he needs to do damage on them to make up for all those flailing swings at breaking balls below the zone.
If you told me that Peña was guaranteed to post an exactly average batting line, this is where I’d place him on the list. In the real world, where nothing is set in stone, the upside case (he posts a 120 wRC+, making him incredible) doesn’t feel particularly likely, but it’s still in play. The downside case (he posts an 80 wRC+, making him uninteresting) is definitely real, and his approach exacerbates its likelihood. He’s a good reminder to pump the brakes just a little when a rookie bursts onto the scene – but he’s also a reminder that good shortstops are valuable even when they’re slumping.
| Five-Year WAR | 17.8 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2027 |
| Previous Rank | #14 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 24 | 3.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 25 | 3.5 | Arb 1 |
| 2026 | 26 | 3.6 | Arb 2 |
| 2027 | 27 | 3.7 | Arb 3 |
I love a shiny prospect as much as the next analyst. Witt fits that bill; he has game-breaking speed and power at a premium defensive position. He hit 20 bombs and stole 30 bags last year, and he might go 20/40 or even 30/50 this year. He’s a fantasy beast, no doubt – but I’m starting to wonder whether those drool-worthy counting statistics will translate into real-world value.
You’d like to pair Witt’s blazing baserunning skills with a high OBP, but that doesn’t seem likely given his career so far. He swings a lot and makes only average contact, which means he doesn’t walk much but still strikes out fairly often. And his homers come from an aerially-oriented approach, so it’s not like he can easily boost his power by lifting and pulling more frequently.
ZiPS, not to mention a few of the human evaluators I spoke to, thinks I’m too low on Witt and maybe I am. His defense grades out much better this year, and it always made sense that someone with his natural gifts would be a capable shortstop. But he was an absolute butcher in 2022 and I think a responsible estimate of his future defense would wind up somewhere south of average. If he’s an asset in the field, it takes a lot of pressure off of his hit-or-miss offense.
At the end of the day, most of the arguments for putting Witt higher on this list come down to things he hasn’t done yet. The tools are all there. Now we just need to see it for more than a few hot weeks at a time. I think there’s a decent chance of Witt making me look foolish in a year, but after 1,000 plate appearances of average hitting, I need to see a little more.
| Five-Year WAR | 14.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2025 |
| Previous Rank | #9 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 25 | 3.0 | Arb 2 |
| 2025 | 26 | 3.3 | Arb 3 |
One concept that got a lot of play, both in my head while I made this list and in my conversations about it as I gathered feedback, is what I like to call the first base dead zone. It works like this: If you’re a true talent 140 wRC+ hitter at first base, you’re a franchise cornerstone. Drop that mark to 120, though, and you’re a role player. Christian Walker, Josh Naylor, Rhys Hoskins, Brandon Drury, Anthony Rizzo — none of those guys really get your blood pumping, do they? They’ve all put up a wRC+ between 120 and 125 combined across 2022 and 2023.
The margin is slim; Freddie Freeman, Matt Olson, and Paul Goldschmidt are stars. That’s why I had Vlad ninth on this list last year, and why he’s been a fixture towards the top since he debuted in the majors. His 2021 season and his status as a once-in-a-decade prospect cast long shadows. If you think he’s basically a toned-down version of 2021, this is too low.
Maybe he is, but he hasn’t showed that world-conquering form recently. Since the start of the 2022 season, he’s barely inside the top 10 for wRC+ among qualified first basemen. He’s not going to be around forever; he’ll hit free agency after the 2025 season. He’s not a huge bargain, either; he’s making $14.5 million in arbitration this year, and that’s only going to go up. He also has nowhere to hide defensively; when he has a down offensive stretch, there’s nothing to cushion it.
His Statcast numbers this year are great. He’s a star. I just don’t believe that teams are lining up to trade for a first baseman whose bat is anything less than generational. There are only two players with similar defensive value to Vladito higher on this list and their bats are clearly superior. I’m not saying he isn’t capable of those heights, but he’s not achieving them at the moment, and this year is a meaningful chunk of his remaining team control.
| Five-Year WAR | 13.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2026 |
| Previous Rank | #50 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 29 | 3.5 | Arb 2 |
| 2025 | 30 | 3.2 | Arb 3 |
| 2026 | 31 | 2.7 | Arb 4 |
It’s kind of wild looking at Arozarena’s career batting numbers. He’s been really good in each of the last three years, and that excludes his white-hot 2020 postseason. In 2023, he’s added OBP to the mix, walking more without sacrificing his fastball-destroying aggression. He’s a top-25 hitter in baseball, maybe better than that, and the track record is too long to ignore at this point.
Case in point: compare his ZiPS projections to Guerrero’s. They’re essentially the same, but Arozarena comes with an extra year of team control and his salary will be meaningfully lower. Sure, he’s older, but you’re not signing him for 10 years; a team trading for him would get the tail end of his peak.
That first base dead zone I mentioned earlier? I think ability to play a passable left field keeps him clear of it. For now, at least, his offense does too. I’m sure this will be an unpopular ranking (Arozarena’s place at the bottom of last year’s list is perhaps the most derided trade value inclusion since I’ve worked at FanGraphs), but let me put it this way: No one I talked to thought he was a reach. If you’re thinking this is just another case of the Rays squeezing everything they can out of a limited skill set, you may not have looked at Arozarena’s on-field production enough.
| Five-Year WAR | 14.3 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2027 |
| Previous Rank | HM |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 27 | 3.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 28 | 3.1 | Arb 1 |
| 2026 | 29 | 2.9 | Arb 2 |
| 2027 | 30 | 2.6 | Arb 3 |
Gilbert is in a different tier, value-wise, than everyone who came before him. I guess that means there are 33 no-doubt ultra-valuable players in baseball this year. The guys ranked 34th to 60th are kind of a crapshoot, and anyone who says they have the perfect order for those players is kidding themselves, me included. Now, though, we’re getting to the good stuff.
Controllable pitching is really valuable. Good controllable pitching? Now we’re cooking with gas. Gilbert is working on his third straight season of a mid-3.00s FIP, and he’s durable to boot. I’m not sure he’ll ever turn into a fire-breathing monster of an ace, but there’s at least a chance of it. He’s throwing a new hard slider and a new splitter this year, and they both look better than his previous set of secondaries. He’s always had great command and a solid fastball; if the whole package gels, look out.
Of course, the whole package doesn’t have to gel for Gilbert to be worth it. He’s going to be around for a long time, for not very much money, and everything in his track record suggests that he’ll be a valuable contributor that whole time. Players like this don’t come along every day, and when they do, teams generally clutch them like pearls.
| Five-Year WAR | 16.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $96.6 M |
| Team Control Through | 2027 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 31 | 4.2 | $24.1 M |
| 2025 | 32 | 3.8 | $24.1 M |
| 2026 | 33 | 3.3 | $24.1 M |
| 2027 | 34 | 2.8 | $24.1 M |
| 2028 | 35 | 2.3 | $25.0 M |
As DJ Khaled would say, another one. Seattle has a lot of good pitchers who will be around for a while, though Castillo doesn’t come at the same bargain rates as Gilbert. The upside, though? I have little doubt that Castillo will deliver All-Star level value for as long as he’s healthy. He’s remarkably consistent, tracking for 3.5-4.5 WAR in each of the past five years. He’s durable. And he’s not doing it with smoke and mirrors; he has multiple plus secondaries and his fastball misses bats at an outrageous rate.
Will Castillo ever win a Cy Young? I doubt it. Will he finish as a top-30 pitcher in baseball every healthy year of his contract? I think so. When you look at what teams are willing to pay for reliable starters, Castillo’s value stands out even more. He’s making Chris Bassitt money, upscale Taijuan Walker money, slightly-more-than-Jameson Taillon money. He’s miles better than those guys.
I flipped Castillo and Gilbert back and forth while constructing these rankings, and I think that a lot of the arguments in favor of one also accrue to the other. In the end, I put Castillo ahead even though he’ll almost certainly generate fewer WAR per dollar of salary. Surplus value is nice, and I obviously used it as an input, but I just think Castillo is better by enough to justify the higher salary. It’s close (and it’s also academic — Seattle isn’t trading either of them), but if you’re wondering how I decided to order these two, there’s your answer.
One quick note: It’s not a perfect comp, but Castillo got traded last deadline for a big return. He’s more valuable than that now, presumably; his contract compares favorably to pitchers of his skill level and it’ll keep him in the same uniform for quite a while without being long enough to turn into an albatross. Players on this list mostly don’t get traded, but he’s a case where we have real-world evidence of what he’s worth.
| Five-Year WAR | 18.4 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | $14.0 M |
| Team Control Through | 2027 |
| Previous Rank | #16 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 27 | 4.2 | $7.0 M |
| 2025 | 28 | 4.0 | $7.0 M |
| 2026 | 29 | 3.7 | $7.0 M |
| 2027 | 30 | 3.5 | $7.0 M |
A trade value stalwart, Albies signed a ludicrously under-market extension early in his career and has looked like a bargain for the Braves ever since. We’re finally getting towards the end of that contract, and it’s of course been a huge value, just as predicted. No one’s disputing that. The question now is to what degree the tail end will pay off for Atlanta, not whether it will.
Above-average players don’t grow on trees. Albies is a perfect example of an above-average player. He’s been worth 3.4 WAR per 600 plate appearances over the course of his career. Starting in 2020, he’s been worth 3.3 WAR per 600 plate appearances. He can hit a little bit. He can field a little bit. He runs the bases well.
At the end of the day, I feel pretty comfortable about what I’m getting from Albies. He won’t be the best player on a good team, but he’ll be a valuable contributor and save you some money to sign a stud to play alongside him. Stars are awesome — everyone wants stars! — but this next tier down, the guys who are always good and sometimes spike All-Star seasons, is also in high demand, particularly if the price is right.
An optimist might look at Albies’s 2023 statline and say that he’s never put up a higher wRC+ than he has this season. Better times are coming! A pessimist might point out that a 119 wRC+ isn’t an especially great number for a career best, and that he turned in a clunker last year. The truth is that his last two seasons work out to basically his career line. This is just what you’re going to get with Albies, and it’s a pretty nice package on the whole.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2024 | 2025 | 2026 | 2027 | 2028 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 31 | 16 | Ozzie Albies | 26 | 4.2 $7.0 M |
4.0 $7.0 M |
3.7 $7.0 M |
3.5 $7.0 M |
|
| 32 | – | Luis Castillo | 30 | 4.2 $24.1 M |
3.8 $24.1 M |
3.3 $24.1 M |
2.8 $24.1 M |
2.3 $25.0 M |
| 33 | HM | Logan Gilbert | 26 | 3.3 Pre-Arb |
3.1 Arb 1 |
2.9 Arb 2 |
2.6 Arb 3 |
|
| 34 | 50 | Randy Arozarena | 28 | 3.5 Arb 2 |
3.2 Arb 3 |
2.7 Arb 4 |
||
| 35 | 9 | Vladimir Guerrero Jr. | 24 | 3.0 Arb 2 |
3.3 Arb 3 |
|||
| 36 | 14 | Bobby Witt Jr. | 23 | 3.2 Pre-Arb |
3.5 Arb 1 |
3.6 Arb 2 |
3.7 Arb 3 |
|
| 37 | 18 | Jeremy Peña | 25 | 2.7 Pre-Arb |
2.8 Arb 1 |
2.7 Arb 2 |
2.5 Arb 3 |
|
| 38 | – | Zach Neto | 22 | 1.6 Pre-Arb |
1.8 Pre-Arb |
1.9 Pre-Arb |
2.1 Arb 1 |
2.2 Arb 2 |
| 39 | 27 | Alejandro Kirk | 24 | 3.1 Arb 1 |
3.1 Arb 2 |
3.1 Arb 3 |
||
| 40 | – | Hunter Brown | 24 | 2.3 Pre-Arb |
2.3 Pre-Arb |
2.3 Arb 1 |
2.2 Arb 2 |
2.2 Arb 3 |
| 41 | HM | Hunter Greene | 23 | 2.5 $3.3 M |
2.6 $6.3 M |
2.7 $8.3 M |
2.8 $15.3 M |
2.7 $16.3 M |
| 42 | 38 | Oneil Cruz | 24 | 2.1 Pre-Arb |
2.4 Pre-Arb |
2.6 Arb 1 |
2.9 Arb 2 |
2.5 Arb 3 |
| 43 | HM | Jordan Walker | 21 | 0.3 Pre-Arb |
0.5 Pre-Arb |
0.6 Arb 1 |
0.7 Arb 2 |
0.8 Arb 3 |
| 44 | 33 | Cedric Mullins | 28 | 3.4 Arb 2 |
2.9 Arb 3 |
|||
| 45 | – | Joe Ryan | 27 | 2.4 Pre-Arb |
2.2 Arb 1 |
1.9 Arb 2 |
1.6 Arb 3 |
|
| 46 | – | Spencer Steer | 25 | 2.1 Pre-Arb |
2.1 Pre-Arb |
2.0 Arb 1 |
1.9 Arb 2 |
1.8 Arb 3 |
| 47 | – | Lars Nootbaar | 25 | 2.3 Pre-Arb |
2.5 Arb 1 |
2.5 Arb 2 |
2.2 Arb 3 |
|
| 48 | 15 | Ke’Bryan Hayes | 26 | 2.5 $7.0 M |
2.5 $7.0 M |
2.1 $7.0 M |
2.0 $7.0 M |
1.7 $8.0 M |
| 49 | – | Josh Jung | 25 | 2.6 Pre-Arb |
2.6 Pre-Arb |
2.6 Arb 1 |
2.4 Arb 2 |
2.2 Arb 3 |
| 50 | – | James Wood | 20 | 0.9 Pre-Arb |
1.4 Pre-Arb |
1.9 Pre-Arb |
2.3 Arb 1 |
2.7 Arb 2 |
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
I’m really curious to hear the argument as to why Luis Castillo is here but guys like Betts, Freeman, Trout, and freaking Kevin Gausman aren’t allowed on the list because of their contract.
Gausman is LITERALLY getting paid LESS than Luis Castillo, and he beats him in virtually every category that Fangraphs cares about. FIP, strikeouts, walks, home runs, quality of contact, fastball spin, etc. There is a massive 1.5 run difference in their FIP metrics this season.
Sure, Luis Castillo is signed for one more year than Gausman, but that seems to be getting used against other players with big contracts.
Like Ben said in the preface, Gausman (and the other HMs) are certainly deserving of being on the list, but for these two guys specifically, I’d argue that a year of an ace-level starter (at a reasonable price) makes a big difference in trade value!
If that’s the case, then why is Freddie Freeman not on the list? He is signed for the same length as Castillo.
Because Freeman’s 3 years older, plays 1B, and has a higher AAV.
You’re missing the fact that he’s also very, very good
But for how long given his age? His age certainly hurts his trade value, coupled with the length and size of his contract. It would make no sense to have him in the top 50 for trade value imo.
Castillo may only be very good…but he’s both cheaper and quite a bit younger.
It seems some people are just dug in on this idea that Freeman is a true talent 7 win player because that is what he’s been for the last 18 months instead of thinking he’s more likely to be true talent 4-5 win player based on his career and age.
Castillo is signed for two more years than Gausman (he has a 2028 vesting option that even drops down to 5mm if he has TJ in 2025-27). I like Gausman and wouldn’t find him out of place in the top 50 but two extra years is a lot.
The injury risk in Castillo, that same vesting option you point out, is a reason to be concerned about him, and not necessarily a positive. It’s why Gausman throws way more innings and makes more starts.
If Castillo has TJ, he loses a year that you’re paying a decent amount of money for him. It’s not an “extra year” when you realize he misses at least a full season, and there’s no guarantee he comes back pitching the same.
That 2028 option is vested only if he pitches 180 innings in 2027. He will be 34 that season, so it is definitely not a given.
…Ben knows the contract terms better than you do, haha.
By definition, the “TJ 25-27”clause must take priority over the “180 IP in ‘27” one.
I won’t bother comparing with Betts and Freeman since it’s cross positions, but in terms of Gausman comp, Castillo is 2 years younger and has thrown 500 fewer innings. In the pitching world that is a big gap in both injury risk and downside sucking risk.
Castillo’s profile has greatly changed and imo the risk of him not keeping up his current level is huge.
His GB% has nosedived, it hasn’t come with more K’s, the one positive is it has come with more infield pop ups. But he’s giving up a ton more flyballs and barrels now. This could work at safeco but on road will get ugly over a more significant sample. I’d personally not have him on the list.
I don’t know how much of that you can gleam to mean his future is riskier given that it’s half a season and he’s not shown to have an injury. If Seattle put him on the market right now I bet he will still get a huge return. This is the type of stuff where if it continues, he’d just drop out of next year’s list.
Lost in all of this is the fact that Gausman is straight up the better pitcher though
By fWAR, yes. But outside of fangraphs and especially once you get into team analytics, I don’t think fWAR is what you’d want to base this argument on. For instance just look at their bWAR for the past 1+ seasons, Gausman is at 5.2 and Garcia is at 6.0. Not saying bWAR is better just that it’s probably not as clear cut or at least Gausman isn’t so far above Castillo that you can ignore the age/mileage on the arm difference.
if i was a certain armenian GM and was offered adoils garcia for zack neato i would sign the paperwork in blood and drive neato to the airport myself that same day
Wow really? I think I’d prefer Neto.
You have to believe that Garcia’s breakout is real to make that argument. ZiPS thinks that going forward he’s more likely to be like 2022 Garcia at the plate than what he has shown so far this year. Yeah, this year he’s been awesome, so I think you would have a point there. But 2022 Garcia is pretty similar in value to what Neto will bring, and Neto has two fewer years of service time.
Garcia has increased his walk rate and decreased his k rate each year in the big leagues
His chase rate went down last year and has plummeted this year.
He’s swinging less often overall, which might indicate he’s adjusting to the sliders in the dirt by not swinging. I don’t buy that because he also increased his meatball swing % from last year, indicating that he is actually becoming more selective.
As a result, his whiff rate has plummeted, walk rate increased, and power numbers shot up. The guy is the real deal.
He’s also 30, plays a corner, and has 3 fewer years of team control.
Yeah, I’m a Garcia believer and 30 HR corner guys who arent drags defensively are surprisingly becoming more underrated as they’ve become more scarce but even accepting that you have to realize this is likely his career year and you’ll probably only want him as long as his team control lasts. Which isn’t bad, and IMO puts him on the list.
But not significantly higher than any of these other Eye of the Beholder guys, especially the ones with more team control who are theoretically young enough to both improve and sign some Braves-esque under market contract that locks them up through the age Garcia’s control lasts.
The one bone I’d pick, and it’s apparent because there’s a bunch of these guys listed in a row, is that you can only have one guy play SS per team. If Jeremy Pena and Bobby Witt Jr are on the same team, are they both just as valuable? What if they’re both traded to the Padres, or Phillies, or Mets?
ARod was still valuable when he kicked over to 3B. Betts is valuable (well…) because the Dodgers can put him anywhere and get MVP production. Trout is still valuable if he’s in a corner. Are these guys still valuable if they get moved off SS? I guess wherever Andres Gimenez lands answers the question
I’d say one of them is clearly much, much, much more valuable than the other, haha.
What if you were offered Jackson Holliday for Zach Neto? lol
I would personally charter a private jet for Neto to get him out of there as fast as possible.
I think that Jackson Holliday offers way more upside than Zack Neto and I think he will be at least as good a player as Neto (aside from the standard 10% chance of every prospect suddenly falling apart). So I’m pretty confident I wouldn’t regret it.
But I think a lot of the “Jackson Holliday should be ranked higher” commentary glosses over the fact that he’s probably got a 50% chance of being about as good as Neto is now.
Sure and nothing against Zach Neto, I think he’s a solid big league player. But every single GM would trade him for Jackson Holliday and with no hesitation.
Yup. If we’re predicting trade value, 30 out of 30 GMs are going to take that 50% bet and chase Holliday’s upside.
More like a 35% bet, postponed by a year into the future.
Yup, player value is not linear. 8m/WAR doesn’t really work anymore, the top players get paid more and the bottom less. Holliday gives you the chance of a 6 WAR star, Neto is probably just a 3 WAR guy.
Holliday is a really good prospect (obviously) but he has 14 PAs above high A ball. I think we’re vastly understating his bust risk.
It depends what you mean by bust. but it has been a long time since I saw someone in high A who looked like a guaranteed major leaguer like Holliday.
At the same time, I am not convinced he is going to be any better than Neto is now. Sometimes a guy is just really advanced and there’s a decent chance that is what we are seeing now.
Jackson Holliday currently has a 60 FV. Keston Hiura also had a 60 FV.
So did Marco Luciano, Victor Robles (65FV), Brendan Rodgers, etc, etc.
Holliday should be a 65 at this point. And Hiura should never have been a 60. Or Luciano. Or Brendan Rodgers. I get what you are saying and I am always on the “the modal outcome for your favorite prospect is being a fourth outfielder” train but Holliday is an unusually safe bet to be a regular of some kind. Like, an 85% chance.
What’s the reason those guys (Hiura and company) shouldn’t have been 60’s? Because they didn’t work out and we have the benefit of hindsight? Or did you think that at the time? This isn’t intended to sound confrontational, only that trends of these players who bust sometimes aren’t exploited until they get to the bigs.
I think we can look back at any prospect who busts with the benefit of information gleaned over that time to see why they didn’t work out (maybe the Brandon Wood factor). But it’s much more difficult to know what we know now back five years ago.
Luciano and Hiura were bets on guys with high strikeout rates with big defensive questions. (It is worth noting that Luciano could still theoretically work out)
Rodgers was a tools bet more generally. His numbers were fine but not anything to write home about.
That said, all of them would have had a pretty solid case as a 55.
Fair enough. I think all of these guys were a little different. Hiura really didn’t have an alarming K rate till he got to AAA and even that wasn’t too high. Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t Eric paired Hiura with Kieboom as busty guys due to swing issues?
Agree on Rodgers being a tools bet.
My issue with Luciano and his ranking is I think a lot of guys either out of LA or new draftees are stuffed too high to begin with. That’s an industry wide trend, not just here too.
Hiura and Holliday ran pretty much the same strikeout rates in the low minors. Rodgers and Holliday have fairly similar production in the low minors. I realize that Holliday’s look really pretty because his wRC+’s start with a 2, but those are tiny samples. In A+ he has had a 162 wRC+ in 259 PA. Rodgers ran a 184 wRC+ in A+ in 236 PA. Rodgers was a year older, but still young for the level.
Holliday’s production has been pretty heavily driven by incredible walk rates, which could just be a product of being too advanced for the low minors and taking advantage of the general inability of those pitchers to throw strikes.
The general point is that Holliday is still at the level where he has a very good chance of busting. He’s not putting up Wander Franco levels of production where he’s an absolute slam dunk generational prospect while he’s still a teen.
Prospects ‘under perform expected value’ or out right bust all the time. Just going back five years to 2018, FanGraphs’ top 10: Ohtani, Acuna, Vlad Jr, Robles, Tatis, Eloy, Senzel, Whitley, Bichette, Tucker
Robles, Whitley, and Senzel are busts, Eloy disappointing if not also a bust.
And it needs to be continuously said, Holliday hasn’t really played beyond high A. If he can do what he’s doing against AA pitching, we’re having a different conversation. But we don’t know.
There’s also another interesting tidbit here: The White Sox traded Tatis for James Shields in 2016… which again goes to how hard it is to accurately gauge the value of young prospects — clearly the White Sox misidentified Tatis, but even so, they ‘only’ got James Shields for him.
Robles and Senzel are definitely cautionary tales. Whitley is a bit of a different cautionary tale, since he is a pitcher. But if you drop Whitley and Ohtani from that group something like half of them are better than 4 win players and two more who have been decent except that their atrocious fielding leaves them little room to not hit. That is 75%. That is good!
*creepy music* Ben, welcome to…the Erick Aybar Zone!
“That might not sound exciting, but an average bat/average glove shortstop is something like a three-win player annually”
I call this section of the list “Underperforming Blue Jays and solid shortstops”
Funny, that’s what I call the Blue Jays as a team
So, let me say first that I think that Vlad Jr might not belong this high on the list anymore–not with 2.5 years of team control remaining.
But I think the logic Ben uses to ding Vlad Jr is also a bit too harsh on him. Having 15 more teams open up a spot for a designated hitter has made everyone who can’t play the field but who can hit a 120 wRC+ more valuable than the positional adjustment suggests. There are 15 more spots to put someone like Vlad Jr and that matters a lot.
Ultimately, I still think he belongs on this list because he’s been rather unlucky with balls in play this year (he has the #5 xwOBA in MLB among qualified hitters). The skills are still there. And so I think it’s reasonable that he is going to be closer to 140 wRC+ than 120 wRC+ going forward. But even if he didn’t, he would be an upgrade at DH for 18-20 teams…that extra competition adds up.
The Yankees would kill for a player who can’t play defense and hits for a 120 wRC+. The complete list of players who have more than 50 PA’s with the Yankees this year and wRC+ above 110 is Aaron Judge and Jake Bauers. I think it’s selling those types of players extremely short.
And also a welcome reminder of the Yankees’ general suckitude at the plate
Im glad that someone is finally pointing out that outside of 1 season, Vlad has really not been a superstar level performer even if he is treated as such. At what point can he be considered a disappointment because of how much hype he had?
2021: 698 PA | 6.3 WAR
Rest of career: 1,860 PA | 3.2 WAR
Lets assume that ZiPS RoS is reasonably on target, then he’ll be at:
2021: 698 PA | 6.3 WAR
OTHER: 2139 PA | 4.4 WAR
Looking for some other players with 2400-3200 PA through age 24 with a similar “one year versus rest” split (at least 50% in the one year), 1962 onward-
Aurelio Rodriguez 5.5 / 663 vs 4.6 / 2259
Gary Sheffield 6.5 / 618 vs 1.9 / 1801
Claudell Washington 3.8 / 635 vs 3.4 / 2205
Pretty small sample size, but, for ages 25-26:
Sheffield 4.8 fWAR
Washington 1.9
Rodriguez -0.3
Sheffield’s years were 1994-1995, so almost certainly would have been better without the strike, but the other two are pretty literally just “guy had one standout year in their entire career”.
Sheffield also had absurd, pre-BIS poor defensive numbers.
Also wasn’t that season where the Jays played in Buffalo for at least part of the season? Looking at this splits, his Rogers Center numbers are certainly worse than his road numbers.
He is still so young though, he is only 24. And that ridiculous season came at age 22. By wRC+ it was the 11th best season by a player 22 or younger since integration. It’s basically all hall of famers who were able to put up similar numbers at that age. I think it’s fair to be skeptical…but I also would not want to bet against him going into his mid to late twenties.
The talent is clearly there but I am skeptical about how many times he will be able to put it all together for a full 162 like he did in 2021. I think his career will be viewed as largely inconsistent and a little disappointing when it’s all said and done
Feels a bit like early career Bryce Harper. You still feel you have to bet on talent, and one big year make you see the ceiling, but the overall production definitely don’t match the hype.
I like that, but with an even lower floor due to value being completely tied to the bat. He kind of reminds me of Prince Fielder at this point, and I could see him similarly out of the league by his early 30’s.
TBF, Fielder had that degenerative neck thing that caused him to retire way early, and still put together an effective season at 31.
IMO the falloff Guerroro should be afraid of is more along the lines of Ryan Howard.
The difference between Harper’s tantalizing 2015 season and the next best season he’s been able to achieve in the eight since is 2.7 wins. The equivalent path for Guerrero would have him topping out at 3.6 wins.
Due to his defensive positions being DH or 1B-but-team-wishes-he-were-DHing and negative baserunning value, Guerrero is already reduced to the late career David Ortiz path to accruing value despite being 24: 135-140 wRC+ in the batter’s box or bust.
That’s a mighty narrow lane for this position on the list, and it’s very easy to fall off: not a whole lot of dudes on here become a 1 WAR just-a-guy when they’re “only” 20% better at hitting than league average and when “only” 15% of their fly balls leave the park.
I know this conversation has diverged somewhat to Vlad’s career outcome in general but the context of the series is about contract trade values and this gets into the Juan Soto issue
You aren’t trading for Vlad’s career outcome. You’re trading for the rest of his age 24 season at pro-rated $14.5m, then his age 25 and age 26 seasons where he’s already going to be making close to market money for his production.
Now granted, Soto still went for a ton. I’m curious how San Diego and Washington will both feel about that in 2025
He’s such a tough player because I don’t think 7 win seasons happen by accident, but at the same time the rest of his performance has been so mediocre that it can’t be waved away either.
Yes, he’s still very young, but his conditioning is so poor that you have to wonder if this is a profile that’s going to last past age 28 or 29
Yup. He is clearly capable of being a top 5 hitter in the league but he lacks the hunger and drive to stay at that level
Where’s Shirtless Bartolo Colon when you need him?
Well that’s not what I said at all. I just don’t think he’s that good, I’ve never met the guy and can’t speak to how hungry he gets around lunchtime
Of course, Harper was better in CF at that age than Vladito is at 1B, haha.
Kid would have had to have Mike Trout’s bat to not be viewed as a disappointment.
I saw a lot of people hang 70s on him and it’s not like I disagreed with them at the time. People legitimately expected him to have 2021-type seasons regularly.
The crazy thing is, there’s still time! He’s 24! He’s only about half a year older than Matt McLain. But for purposes of this exercise, his team control is almost up.
But that was a just an overhype based on everything we know about 1B prospects.
For him to be a superstar as 1B/DH he’d have to be a consistent 140 wRC+ guy every year. I’m going to take the under on that for every prospect no matter what
Oh, I mean that Harper would have needed Trout’s bat.
Vlad would have needed to hit like Harper or Soto.
He was at 140 wRC+ heading into September last year. This year he did pretty well until he hurt his wrist in May.
I think the production should be better but I also think some injuries have affected him and masked how good he’s been. He’s healthy now and crushing it since the all star break.
Ben should have purchased the rights to the “Erick Aybar Zone” from sadtrombone for the Neto & Pena rankings!
Of all these, the one I think may be too high is Vladdy, which is not something I would have said 18 months ago. He’s approaching FA & hasn’t really been elite since 2021 & provides little defensive value.
I think if most teams could choose to trade for Betts & his contract or Vladdy, Betts would get more back because he is just so good & you will have him for longer/the annual pay won’t be that much more.
To be fair, I am an anonymous trombone on the internet, it’s not like he can just have his people contact my people.
I do think that a lot of the heat people are giving Ben is because they don’t exactly understand what makes a player “valuable.” Sometimes I take it for granted that everyone who comments here knows this stuff, but the Erick Aybar Zone and its cousins can be helpful at illustrating things like this.
1) The Erick Aybar Zone illustrates positional adjustments, and how even an average hitter who plays average defense high up on the defensive spectrum can be very valuable.
2) The Ozzie Albies Area illustrates how having someone under control for a very long time at a very cheap rate can make someone more valuable than an objectively better player. (This is pretty much true of all pre-arb players, but you can’t name it after them because they eventually become post-arb players…Albies is unusual in that he has stayed that way)
2) The Lars Nootbaar* Sector illustrates how someone who is slightly above average at a lot of different things adds up to be a good
*I’m hoping this one doesn’t embarrass me long-term. If he falls off a cliff I will have to come up with a different name.
I think Ben Zobrist should be the namesake for #3 as the first guy to really break through and recieve national recognition as a star because of how phenomenally well-rounded his game was.
Though looking at his stats again, prime Zobrist was way too good a hitter to fit here. Maybe Chris Taylor’s a better example?
Probably not a great example, but I always think of Casey Blake.
Had an 8 year peak averaging in the 2.5-3.0 WAR range. A perfectly useful above league average guy. Had his ups and downs, but delivered solid value.
I think of Max Kepler. Every team needs these guys (as the Trout-era Angels can attest!)
My favorite archetype of player lies in the Joe Randa/Ronnie Belliard zone, in which they spend their whole career being painfully average.
Paul Konerko should be the patron saint of that group. Dude had 14 straight seasons of being a solid MLB starter averaging 2 WAR a season, but since he did it all on one team he got his number retired for the trouble.
The Lars Nootbaar sector reminds me of very early career Mookie Betts (2014 and 2015). He was good at everything but didn’t really stand and it all added up to like a 4 win all star caliber guy even though he was seen as less than that at the time
“Early Mookie” was very good at hitting and absolutely elite at everything else, and it added up to a 5-6 win guy who was absolutely perceived as such at the time.
He put up 8.5 WAR in his second full season, haha!
But, uh, at least Bloom managed to salary-dump Price, after a Mookie rejected his insulting lowball!
Yeah the issue with naming it after Mookie Betts is (1) he didn’t stay early Mookie Betts for that long and (2) he was too valuable, kind of like Ben Zobrist.
Yeah – Mook started OFF as Zobrist, before becoming Mookie freaking Betts.
It’s just incredible to me that he can play passable shortstop and second base after so long in the outfield
I bet it has a little something to do w/ also being a 300 bowler, LOL.
He (and various other true superstars like him) is basically some kinda unicorn… just not named Ohtani (or Ruth), LOL!
if the red sox traded brayan bello for big fat alejandro kirk and his 74 wrc+ id storm the capitol
That’s a more worthy cause than some uhhh…other reasons that it was recently stormed 🙂
With the obvious caveat that we haven’t seen the rest of the list, Ozzie seems a little low imo. Sure, he doesn’t have star upside but 7 mil for a player with an established track record of 3.4 WAR per 600 (and projections of 4+ WAR the next two years) seems like a huge steal.
It’s fatigue. What would a team trade for 1990’s WAR prices for a top 10 (top 5? Not sure- his valuation entirely depends on how you feel about his defense, the thump is there offensively) 2nd baseman who makes that money for the next 4 years? Even if he were just a passable starter, that’s a huge amount of payroll flexibility.
Are you kidding? Something like half of the remaining list are other Braves.
Yeah and I think I’d easily take Ozzie and his contract over Riley and his contract (assuming he’s on here)!
Controversial, but I can’t disagree with you.
He is (he was last year and not on HM, so he has to be). And I totally agree. I might take Ozzie’s deal over Riley’s even if you could cut 1-2 years off of Riley’s deal, the “questionable backend years,” if you will.
Yeah, think there are 5 Braves in the top 30. I am surprised Riley is in the top 30 rather than an honorable mention given his relative underperformance the last 162 games.
The write up is a bit like “well he’s not that good…” but his projection 2024-2025 is better than anyone on this list. Where would a 3.5-4.0 WAR 26-year-old second baseman with the same contract but instead of $7 million the next 4 years (2 are options!) it was $17 million, land?
Is it just too hard to conceptualize? I feel like in an effort to understand and implement what they’ve been told, which I agree with, about star players and all that, that the rigidity of that maxim is going too far.
If the Braves ever did look to trade Ozzie, can you imagine how fast and furious the successful, low-market teams like the Rays and Guardians would come running?
Oooooon the other hand, as a Braves fan, having six of the top 31 most valuable trade pieces in baseball (including #1 you would think) is pretty nice!
I mean, what sort of dump truck would the Dodgers pull up with? Because picking up Alvie’s basically guarantees you at least the payroll flex to sign Otahni (and whatever other top market team with the prospects to pull this off). It’s just boring if you go straight actual trade value today.
Albies is more in the Nootbaar debate from yesterday — solid player on a great contract and (much) more of a track record. He’s (usually) about an average hitter, his current 119 wRC+ but be his career best. He’s a good, but not great defender. Very good to elite base runner though.
I’ll jump in and say that ranking is insane. Albies should be top 10 easy, if not top 5.
Nice work man!
Love that comment about the first base dead zone. You have to be a really, really, really good hitter to stand out at first base, otherwise your value is pretty pedestrian. It’s a good point.
Somewhere Erubiel Durazo’s ears are burning…
In all seriousness, look at the player page of someone like John Jaha – when he’s running a 140-150 wRC? Quite useful! Then all the sudden he’s just…not. And then he’s out of the league in like two years.
Did Zach Neto write these rankings?
I really don’t understand what this series is trying to say because it really doesn’t reflect reality.
Ohtani wasn’t mentioned, so I presume he is in the top 30. There is no real world scenario where Ohtani has more trade value than Logan Gilbert, Vlad Jr etc. Like if the Angels asked for those players, those teams would hang up. Due to Ohtani being a FA in a few months.
This series feels like it needs a rethink about what it is trying to rank.
The deals wouldn’t get made, but it’s because acquiring Ohtani is a win-now move that you then undercut by opening up a hole in a different part of your major-league club. If I’m in a car race and you offer me a souped-up engine, I’m not going to give you one of my tires in exchange, even if the engine’s value is higher than the tire. High-quality MLB talent for high-quality MLB talent trades mostly happen when one team (here, the Angels) is out of it, and the other is in it and feels they have a clear surplus they can deal from. That doesn’t apply to the Mariners and Blue Jays.
The thing is, if this is about aggregate trade value, it’s not what you can get from one team, it’s the sum of what you would get from every team. Only one or two teams would want Ohtani right now, even with a king’s ransom. Every team in baseball would put something together for Holliday and all that value should put him in over Ohtani. The price people will pay, the option value is entirely dependent on the size of the market.
It does not appear to be aggregate trade value. It is what would a player receive if traded. If the estimated highest bid for Ohtani would be better than the estimated highest bid for player X, Ohtani belongs higher on the list. I’m not sure I agree that some team like the Yankees would bid high for Ohtani to make up for the club control difference, but I think that is the premise behind some highly valuable short term players being ranked higher than guys that will provide more value, but over a longer time.
What? I can count a dozen without breaking a sweat.
I assume he means close to what would be needed to trade for Ohtani.
That makes even less sense, as it admits that Ohtani’s trade value would be huge
You can only trade a player to one team. As long as there’s a market of at least two, it only makes sense to consider the potential highest offer as trade value. Market breadth is only relevant to the extent it allows you to get a better highest offer.
“Only one or two teams would want Ohtani right now”
This is, uh….not correct
Only one or two teams would want a dude who’s a top-of-the-rotation starter AND one of the very best hitters in the game? Every team with a chance to make the playoffs would want him. Some may not be able to afford him or be willing to give up what he would cost, but saying only one or two would want him is ridiculous.
I don’t think that is what this list is trying to do, at least from the years reading it, it usually is ranking these guys outside of team context and more putting them all in a vacuum. Its more about contract+team control+on-field ability+age.
Right, but that’s why your examples don’t defeat the list’s ordering. You can say that Ohtani’s half season would fetch a higher price than Gilbert or Vlad Jr.; the fact that the teams currently holding those players would not trade them for Ohtani straight up doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just means that once you bring team context in, some deals won’t happen because the value of Ohtani to a fringe contender is contingent on the rest of their roster remaining contention worthy.
Without running the numbers, I’d guess a half season (+ postseason) of Ohtani would improve a team’s chances of winning a title more than 2.5 seasons of Vlad Jr. would.
Especially certain teams, right? Imagine a bidding war between the Giants and Dodgers? First, they are in a battle for a division where the winner could easily be the 2-seed and get a bye while the loser would have to go on the road for a 3-game series that they need to win to face the Braves.
Beyond that, the winner gets a 3-month exclusive negotiation window and three months to sell Ohtani on signing there.
I think that Ben might be using so many different inputs into these rankings that it doesn’t reflect any coherent theory of trade value. From a surplus value perspective, I’m pretty sure you are right, and that’s probably the baseline. Any deviation from surplus value probably has to be justified. But at this point there are so many justifications that the surplus value framework itself is obscured. I’m not sure what I think about that, or whether it is good or bad, just that it is happening.
Yeah and I think I struggle with that because the inputs are not likely to reflect reality, I guess we might have a test of it if Ohtani is traded but I expect the return will surprise people.
Surplus Value as I understand it is based on historical prices paid for a particular WAR projection minus annual cost, which isn’t the same thing as net contribution to franchise value. The most obvious example is that both a $35m player making $35m and a 0 WAR player making the minimum each has zero Surplus Value.
To me the baseline should be something like greater of increased odds of winning WS or making playoffs times value of that to the team most benefited.
For years beyond 2024 it can be the greater of expected $/WAA or something based on option pricing
Add the two and subtract the expected cost and that’s the trade value. The way it’s calculated now overvalues pre-arb 2 WAR players in their mid 20s and no carrying tools.
Yes Peak Erick Aybar was an above average player. But anyone slightly worse was a step away from useless
Anyone slightly worse than Erick Aybar was a 3 win player! That’s not a good example!
Surplus value is just how much more that player would cost if they were a free agent. I strongly disagree with the $/WAR part of the calculation, but it’s super useful because you can peg prospect FVs to it. The actual value of how much it costs to trade for someone comes down to supply and demand, but as an abstraction surplus value works well. And this list is an abstraction, so to me it seems like this is a good place to use it.
Amazing comment! Surplus value is obsolete and has been for 6-7 years. 4+ win talent is the scarce resource and that’s what gets traded for unless a team like the Rockies has poisoned the well with Arenado. The high price of a contract can always be mitigated by sending a bad contract back. Sure, not all teams can trade for an expensive contract, but surplus value is highly overrated and far less important than the talent and increased playoff possiblities that you cite.
I was lost when I saw Ke’Bryan Hayes in the top 50, which is absolutely bizarre and untethered.
If you read the intro piece for this year’s series you would have seen that Ben focused the rankings around which players would get the best return from the highest bidder.
So this does reflect reality. The Mariners aren’t going to trade Gilbert for Ohtani because it doesn’t make sense based on their current position and competitive window. I actually might debate your position on Vlad and the Jays.
It’s not unreasonable to think an aging team with a strong record this year would pay more for Ohtani than the highest bidder would pay for most of the guys we’ve seen so far. If Ohtani is any higher than the next section I’d be pretty surprised though.
Ohtani is probably most valuable to the Rays, Braves and Dodgers to name 3. If I were the Dodgers I would trade Diego Cartaya, rated a 55 or 2 50s like Andy Pages and Michael Busch for Ohtani. IMO Rays should be willing to trade 2 50s like Kyle Manzardo and Carson Williams. IMO Braves should be willing to trade AJ Smith-Shawver and 2 45s. I don’t know that there are a lot of players who I would view as worth that much.
I think the Rangers have a pretty strong argument as well for your top 3. You’re getting a top of the rotation starter + a middle of the order bat in a single player, hard to overstate just how valuable that is.
Trea Turner had an extra full season of control but I’d imagine the Angels would be looking to the Scherzer/Turner to the Dodgers deal in terms of expected return.
See that’s in line with my “area under the curve” argument. Your value is a function of what others are willing to pay for what you do, not just what you do, and there’s not a thick market for Ohtani
What does it matter if 2 teams are bidding for Ohtani, or 22 teams? Team’s are still going to have a price limit they’re willing to pay for Ohtani. They aren’t going to give up double the prospect capital just because the number of teams making offers for him went from 4 to 8. It took all of 2 teams in a bidding war with one another to give Judge his huge free agent deal.
The Blue Jays are a playoff team if the season ended today, they’d be out of their mind not to trade Vlad for Ohtani. The former doesn’t really move win % much at all come playoff time but an ace level pitcher (who also happens to somehow be a better hitter too just, you know, for funsies) absolutely does. And he projects as more production for the playoff chase to secure that spot. Who cares if he is a rental.
You basically get Vlad’s offensive production plus a frontline SP. In the same guy!
Hey now – Ohtani’s a better hitter, and a much better baserunner!
What’s the deal with Justin Steele? He’s under team control until 2028 I believe. Zips is only projecting him for like 100 innings the next few years – I guess because he started as a reliever? Seems like an oversight. He has been as good or better than Hunter Brown for longer.
Agreed, that’s my biggest gripe. As a Cubs fan of course I’m biased but when you combine player control length with the fact that he was a top-5 pitcher in the second half of last year and followed up with a great season this year, I just don’t see it.
He was mentioned in the HMs – Ben wants a larger sample on the two-pitch thing…although it’s not like Strider has enough of a larger sample to justify being Top 30 while Steele can’t crack it.
strider is bill dipperly
Strider’s also better, though.
Oh, 100%, haha!
I just don’t think the gap between them is greater than the gap between Ozzie Albies and Ke’Bryan Hayes – especially given how little Steele makes, right now.
Witt was jerked around defensively last year, and scouts have consistently rated him as more than capable of staying at short.
With roughly a year’s sample size at SS, Statcast has him as a scratch defender so far…even with all the errors last season.
It also thinks that his offensive results over the last 6 weeks are a lot more in keeping with how he’s been hitting the ball all year than his full season stats indicate.
I hear the argument in the piece about how bad his defense was last year but zips loves him anyway. What’s funny is … I think zips is a bit low? He’s currently headed for more WAR this year than he’s projected for over any of the next four years, all of which will be in the upswing or prime of his career. Which is to say: I think zips actually is accounting for what he did last year, and trying to correct past that for this list is an unexpected editorial choice to me.
I don’t think it’s an indefensible choice to be low on his projections; the argument that he may already have maxed out his power is interesting, especially if you don’t buy the recent short-term uptick in his OBP. But I think on balance his present and future are both a bit better than the writeup suggests. And ultimately you have to be selling pretty much all the positives and buying pretty much all the negatives to think zips is too optimistic.
But even the argument about his power misidentifies why people think there’s room for growth – his swing is already great, which is why he has a .443 xwOBACON (and a ~.370 xwOBA for good measure).
Folks think he’ll continue to build on the improved approach he’s shown this year and do a better job of differentiating between pitches he can hit and pitches he can crush.
If you believe xWOBA (and in this case I do) Witt’s already broken out offensively.
Witt would be on my short list of players a team should try and sign to a 12 year contract right away. Right now he is a young guy who hasn’t quite broken out yet but if you look under the hood he could be a franchise player as soon as tomorrow.
This. 1000% this.
Witt had almost supernaturally bad luck on batted balls the first couple months of the season. He was roping balls all over the place but so often it was right at someone. I think at one point the gap between his wOBA and xwOBA was 100 points. With even average batted ball luck we would be talking about him potentially being the best SS in MLB this year.
The unlucky version of him looks like a 4-win guy, this year!
Add solid defense at SS, and continued development of his eye at the plate…Witt’s gonna be good, not just fun!
And just a few weeks ago, at least a couple commenters tried to laugh off my mention of Vlad Jr in the same breath as Witt Jr bc they felt Witt looked overhyped in the power dept, but somehow gave a pass on Vlad only reaching his power potential for 1 year so far, LOL! And I never suggested they’re equals (talent-wise) w/ the bat anyway, but then, Witt goes right ahead and hit a few more HRs while Vlad still not much so, but actually worse…
I’m still not sure I’d wanna bet on Witt’s bat more than Vlad going forward, but certainly, nobody needs him to be Vlad’s equal (or better) w/ the stick to prefer Witt by a good deal going forward (even forgetting about long term controllability)…
Heim and Kirk are in identical places in their respective careers, both make 700K+, both arb eligible after this year, both under team control until 2027.
Raise your hand if you would take Kirk over Heim.
Kirk’s 24, has a longer offensive track record, and has become an excellent pitch framer…which is why he was worth 3.8 wins last year, despite horrid baserunning and playing half of his games at DH.
Eh, I would still prefer Heim. He is an excellent all-around defensive catcher and has been for years now. Meanwhile, catcher offensive output is frequently subject to fluctuation from the physical grind of the position. That’s why I am skeptical about saying that Kirk playing half his games at DH is tanking his value: I think that helps preserve his body so he CAN hit that well. Might not be coincidence that he’s played far more catcher than DH this year, and been much worse offensively.
Heim’s always had pretty respectable plate discipline, but this year he’s replaced grounders with line drives and pop-ups with lower angle FBs, hence his BABIP has jumped… but even a league average offensive year for him means he’s a 2.5 to 3 WAR player as strongside of catcher platoon.
As for age, I’m also concerned about Kirk aging sooner than usual bc of body type concerns; I watched similar happen to Sandoval, so I’m at least a little concerned about Kirk’s knees holding up long-term between his build and catching. Kirk is listed at 8 inches shorter than Heim but is 25lb heavier.
All of that is entirely fair, haha!
*raises hand
It’s bonkers that Ozzie would still be good value at double the AAV and yet there’s gonna be at least 4 Braves ahead of him in the top 30.
Vlad has to be the most overrated player in the game. 1 great year.Bad built.A non premium position.Doesn’t walk,bad baserunner,below average fielder. Every GM would rather have Torkelson
I mean…a bad year from Vlad would be a career year from Tork, haha.
Torkelson, amazingly, is only about 6 months younger than Vlad Jr.
Torkelson is clearly in post-prospect territory at this point. If he turned into a 120 wRC+ guy–which is still possible, his peripherals aren’t so bad–the Detroit front office would exhale a sigh of relief.
You kind of had me until the last sentence. And then you went hyperbolic.
You have to take it as a given that Mr. Krugman, in addition to his vast economics background, thinks the Tigers perpetually field 9 all-stars and 5 aces and are only bad luck and variance away from a 120-win season. You can’t forget that
torkelson, the almost 24 year old with a career OPS+ of 84 over the 24 year old Vlad with a career OPS+ of 133 in 2500 PAs?
Perhaps, but Vlad’s sentence structure is impeccable.
Lots of Ohtani and Holliday conversation, and I think they tie together nicely in a scenario that applies this year in real life (well, if the Angels continue to muddle along): would the Orioles trade Holliday for Ohtani?
I think the answer is no, and it’s telling because they are in a win-now cycle and have a clear need for pitching, and have depth at SS. I know the exercise isn’t ‘would team A trade for player X?’ but you would think the Orioles would be near the top of the Ohtani market.
Anyone disagree?
The Orioles know they won’t be able to resign him, though.
But if the Dodgers or Pads were in the exact same position as the Os are now, and had Holliday…I think they pull the trigger.
Interesting that this has come up in response. Normally I’d agree, but I don’t see a world where Ohtani doesn’t take himself to free agency — he’s got so many suitors and the chance that some team gives him an insane offer.
The Dodgers would get a half-season to show off their organization, maybe that is worth enough to tip the scales? (Pads are bad enough this year that I don’t see it.)
I disagree that the Orioles are in a win now cycle. They’re winning, but they didn’t made any win-now type FA acquisitions and I’m skeptical they’re actually willing to add any payroll or trade minor league talent.
Yeah – it’s more accurate to say that they’re ahead of schedule.
Why should they spend money when they don’t know just how good this exciting group who are just beginning to arrive turn out to be. The only money that the O’s should spend is to lock up Adley Rutschman for what ever he wants.
Their playoff rotation is struggling rookie Grayson Rodriguez, then… Kyles Gibson and Bradish? Dean Kremer?
Wells is also doing the job. Bradish seems to be getting the idea of what it takes, but I am fundamentally opposed to trying to pick up pitchers at the deadline.
Yeah that rotation in a playoff series doesn’t exactly scare anyone
But they know this isn’t their year, so they’re not going to force it.
Mmhmm. When the window is just opening, you don’t go cash in a ton of your trade chips unless you want it to shut in about 2 years after you’ve traded your young talent and those FA’s walk
The Orioles are just entering their window of contention. Even if they do nothing, they should be able to contend for quite a while to come. I don’t think they would be looking to do anything that was going to significantly shorten that. But agree, if it was the Dodgers or Pads, it would be a much different story.
If I’m SD, I don’t think I hesitate to deal a package based around Merrill for Ohtani.
I agree with that. Any team that trades for Ohtani needs to be both in contention this year and planning to make a serious run at signing him long term, because that exclusive negotiating window is part of the value of trading for him.
I’m not saying their approach is wrong (although I did think they should’ve been in the SP market over the offseason) but I don’t think they fit the profile of a team that’s likely to be high bidder on one of the biggest handful of trade deadline names. Ohtani WOULD fit their team perfectly.
I guess we’ll see in a couple weeks. I agree agree they weren’t in win-now mode in the offseason, but I’m not sure why their thinking would still be the same now, and I’d be pretty surprised if they aren’t aggressive in a couple weeks — they have the third-best record in baseball, a Rays team in front of them that’s showing a few leaks, and have both obvious needs and areas of depth they can trade from.
I think it would be both justifiable and good for baseball if they add. As for reasons why they wouldn’t, most of them are Angeloses. BaseRuns thinks they’ve been significantly overperforming, too.
I both think that they’ll be aggressive AND doubt that they’ll have any interest in Ohtani, haha!
They’re not going to be great until ‘24/25, and the leadership knows that.
I thought about this yesterday. I think the O’s are probably a year early to the beginning of their competitive window, and likely see Holliday as a big piece of the window going forward. At this point, they should probably focus on upgrades around the margins and get the kids some post-season experience. They should shoot for 2024 and beyond rather than pushing their chips in now.
If I was a GM, I would have a hard time giving up significant long term value for Alejandro Kirk. Perhaps it’s unfair but his conditioning really scares me. Anytime I see a player in his shape start to struggle, I’m much more concerned that this is the new norm versus bad luck or working through something. I wouldn’t be surprised if his career followed the path of Pablo Sandoval. He accumulated 12.6 WAR through his age 24 season, 7.6 WAR from 25-27 and and -1.9 over the rest of his career. With him currently struggling and playing a very physically demanding position, the risk level is very high.
Yeah, I have the same thought. The weight he plays at is fine for a DH, but that’s so much pressure on his knees when catching.
“Anytime I see a player in his shape start to struggle”
Look, round is a shape!
Still believe that if Ozzie hit exclusively from the right side he would be an MVP candidate.
The trade value rankings the past couple/few years seem to be moving further and further away from the intention of the exercise as it used to exist.
I’m not sure if it’s the evolution of market forces or just different perspectives from the data compilers, but these ranks are seemingly more and more divorced from the hypothetical returns the players would get.
In what way? What kinds of players are being over or under valued?
I don’t know that there’s any one example of a player or archetype to which I can point; the past few years have just left me puzzled as a whole. I’d guess I noticed the change the year that Craig Edwards took the job and it’s felt a muddle since.
When the talk is about value the place to start is the Braves middle infield. As of this moment, at a cost of $7.3 million, the combination of Albies and Arcia have provided 29 HR’s and 5.2 bWAR. Now that is what I call a good return. It is so bizarre that you have to laugh at what the Braves are doing.
Castillo getting traded last season is a far less than an imperfect comp given that he (correctly) failed to make even the honorable mention section just five days before the trade. Castillo with 1.5 years of team control and 4.5 years of team control are the same player with completely different trade values, not that Ben is unaware.
I could be way off on this but as more time goes on, I’m increasingly convinced – or I’m convincing myself – that when front offices are assessing players, the consideration is 90% offensive potency and 10% glove. I get that the computer systems value defense relatively heavily, but I think front offices want hitters who are currently above-average or have the potential, and that they have little interest in trading for hitters where the sales pitch leads with their defense. I think teams view it is a bonus when a good hitter is also a good defender, but that’s about the extent to which clubs are interested at a high level. Individual defense does not seem very sticky to me. I bet lots of clubs think they can develop defense, and they wouldn’t be wrong in thinking this, as there are dozens of hitters this year alone who went from bad/neutral defenders to good/very good defenders, all over the field. So when I see someone like Bobby Witt Jr. – who clocked 31 HR and stole 29 bases in 120 games in 2021 in the minors, and whom statcast has a .535 xSLG – my instinct is that tons of clubs would still pay through the nose for that player. They would say “30/30 potential? Yes please! And they play short? Even better!”.
It depends a lot on the front office. Some teams, like the Cubs, place a high priority on defense. And some teams, like the Phillies, disregard it entirely. Some teams, like the Rays, place a huge emphasis on outfield defense but just want to muddle by in the infield.
What I do think is true is that there is much more consensus about assessing offensive value across teams. Most teams are probably not using anything more sophisticated than the public tools here on FG for offense. But on defense, while everyone is using the same inputs (the same stuff that OAA is using) the way they slice it up is different.
Where would you rank someone like Chas McCormick who seems to have taken a meaningful step forward, even after averaging 2 WAR in the beginning of his career?
Controllable, capable up the middle defender, and a good bat who isn’t 150 wrc+ but might settle into the 120 range