Examining Seattle and Milwaukee’s Friday Night Player Dump

© Sam Greene/The Enquirer / USA TODAY NETWORK

Friday afternoon is traditionally the time when organizations dump unpleasant news. The week before the Winter Meetings, it’s also the time when organizations finally get rid of players they’ve been trying to trade. To that end, the Seattle Mariners have acquired second baseman Kolten Wong, along with $1.75 million in cash, from the Milwaukee Brewers in exchange for infielder Abraham Toro and outfielder Jesse Winker.

Huh. Interesting.

The appeal of this trade is obvious for Seattle. The Mariners broke their postseason drought last year and played the World Series champion Astros tough in the ALDS despite getting basically zip from their second basemen. The outgoing starter was Adam Frazier, whose stock skyrocketed after half a good season with the Pirates in 2021. Frazier was not the All-Star .320 hitter he was supposed to be after he was traded to San Diego, and remained subpar after being traded to Seattle a year ago. In 156 games, Frazier hit .238/.301/.311, which — not to put too fine a point on it — is pretty bad.

Frazier’s a free agent anyway, but the other internal options to replace him were less than inspiring. Dylan Moore had a .368 OBP as a utility guy last year, but he’s 30 years old, has never been a full-time starter in the majors, and his offensive track record is such that you’d expect president of baseball ops Jerry Dipoto to explore other options. I’ll get to Toro in a minute, but he was no better in 2022.

Wong, who’s 32 and has one year left on his contract, has a far more impressive CV. Since arriving in Milwaukee two seasons ago, he’s hit .262/.337/.439. Wong has had his ups and downs with the bat as well, but he’s set career highs in home runs and ISO each of the past two years, and posted a walk rate of 9.3% against a strikeout rate of 17.7% in 2022. He contributes defensively and on the basepaths as well. He has two 20-steal seasons in his career, as well as two Gold Gloves; Wong is generally regarded as one of the best defensive second basemen out there.

At least for now. The most concerning thing about Wong is the fact that his advanced defensive numbers fell off a cliff in 2022. It’s only one season after nearly a decade of solid glovework, and he was trending upward at year’s end. But if it’s a fluke or a mirage, it’s a fluke or mirage that shows up across DRS, UZR, and OAA. All three metrics show his 2022 campaign being at least 15 runs worse than his peak in ’18 or ’19. My view on this issue is that if Wong can post another 497 plate appearances’ worth of 116 wRC+ offense in 2023, he can go out to second with a concrete mitt for all I care. Nevertheless, it’s a concerning trend for a player whose bat hasn’t always been consistent.

A day before the trade, Dipoto drew mild public criticism for a local talk radio interview in which he explained that the Mariners would most likely be both unable and unwilling to pursue a top free agent infielder. Other teams had more money, and the Mariners prefer to draft and develop players internally, he said. Whether this should or should not be so is another question; the Mariners would look outside the organization for a second baseman, but it probably wouldn’t be a big name.

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Once you get past the big four shortstops (or big three, plus Dansby Swanson, if you prefer to look at it that way), there aren’t many options as appealing as Wong. Maybe Jean Segura, depending on cost, but after that the options get really Aledmys Díaz-y really quickly. Iffy glove or not, Wong is at least an average starter at the position, and he’ll make just $10 million in 2022. If he could be pried from Milwaukee for relatively little — and the Brewers seemed motivated to move him — he’d be a better get than most other mid-tier free agents.

It turns out the Brewers, despite interest from the Dodgers and others, only wanted Toro and Winker. In fact, Milwaukee was willing to kick in the cash to cover the difference between Winker’s 2023 salary and Wong’s. The Mariners not only didn’t give up much, they’ll probably be better off without the two players they traded away.

Winker came to Seattle last March as the centerpiece in a six-player trade. He’d just come off a career year in which he’d hit .305/.394/.556 and made his first All-Star team. But while his travel buddy, Eugenio Suárez, found a new lease on life after leaving Cincinnati, Winker struggled. Or at least that’s what they want you to think. Looking at Winker’s 2022 numbers, I think the real Winker was abducted last spring and replaced by a clone in a DARPA experiment to see how bad a baseball player can be with a 15.4% walk rate and a 108 wRC+. His power evaporated, and his defense, never a strength, was among the worst in baseball. Somehow, a hitter with a .344 SLG was an above-average offensive player, and an above-average offensive player was nearly a replacement-level hitter overall.

The strangeness of Winker’s year-long slump makes him an ideal buy-low candidate. Brewers GM Matt Arnold said Friday night that he believes Winker is well suited to the Brewers’ ballpark and will hit again while not battling the back, neck, and knee issues that bugged him in 2022. Certainly Arnold would not have gone out and acquired Winker if he weren’t confident his coaches and analysts could rehabilitate his bat. (Or, going back to the DARPA experiment theory, kill the clone, break into the secret lab under the Pentagon where the real Winker’s been held in stasis for the past 15 months, thaw him out, and get him back to hitting .300/.400/.500 by April.)

While there were highlights to Winker’s Mariners tenure, such as the Pizza Incident, by season’s end it became clear that both Winker and the Mariners were ready to wash their hands of the whole experiment and move on. Maybe Dipoto wouldn’t have come right out and released him, but getting anything of value back — and coming out ahead in the deal financially — is a win for Seattle.

Toro has relatively little in common with Winker, other than he too came to the Mariners in a controversial trade. This was, of course, the infamous Kendall Graveman deal, in which the Mariners — an outsider in the 2021 playoff race but not completely out of it — came back from 7-0 down to beat the Astros, after which Dipoto turned around and dealt Graveman and Rafael Montero before the next day’s game. At the time Dipoto argued that the trade was necessary because the team was unlikely to make the playoffs, Graveman would be a free agent at year’s end, and Toro was the latest in a line of players the Mariners could develop into stars: Mitch Haniger, J.P. Crawford, Ty France, and so on.

Well, he was two-thirds right. In 308 plate appearances with the Astros, Toro hit .193/.276/.350. In 605 plate appearances with the Mariners, he hit .213/.276/.342. Toro was in the top third of the league in contact rate this past year, but the quality of his contact leaves much to be desired.

Abraham Toro, By The Numbers
wRC+ BABIP xwOBA HardHit% LD%
Value 62 .198 .284 29.7% 14.4%
Rank* 269th 275th 235th 256th 273rd
*Out of 277 hitters with 300 or more plate appearances

Because I came of baseball maturity as defense-independent pitching statistics were reaching mainstream acceptance, I look at a .198 BABIP over half a season and a part of my brain can’t help but go, “Man, Toro’s just the unluckiest guy in the world.” But he also has a .224 career BABIP in more than 900 career plate appearances. At some point it’s not a fluke. Look at his hard hit rate, or the fact that last year he had two pop-ups for every three line drives. I wouldn’t say he’s getting the bat knocked out of his hands, exactly. What I will say is the kind of big league hitter who draws that kind of criticism — Ben Revere comes to mind — is actually a much more productive hitter than Toro.

The Brewers are either doing the Mariners a solid by freeing up a roster spot and whatever money Toro will make in arbitration, or they genuinely see something they can salvage in Toro. Because the Brewers sit in the uncomfortable middle of the Venn diagram where “wants to win” converges with “won’t run a $175 million payroll,” they have to play in the sandbox of reclamation projects more than most teams. And to their credit, they’ve profited from doing so in the past.

But as much as Winker’s no longer a sure thing, Toro is even less so. In order to acquire them, they’ve given up a quality regular at a valuable position and spent as much in cash as it would’ve taken to acquire a comparable DH to Winker in free agency. The logic behind this deal for Seattle is obvious. For Milwaukee, understanding it requires a belief that the Brewers know something about Winker and Toro that everyone else doesn’t. And hey, maybe they do.





Michael is a writer at FanGraphs. Previously, he was a staff writer at The Ringer and D1Baseball, and his work has appeared at Grantland, Baseball Prospectus, The Atlantic, ESPN.com, and various ill-remembered Phillies blogs. Follow him on Twitter, if you must, @MichaelBaumann.

62 Comments
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FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
3 years ago

The sudden, strange decline of Christian Yelich has really hamstrung the Crew. Last year they would have easily made the playoffs if they had the old Yelich. I’m hoping at this point he can at least re-become the guy he was in Miami. AFAIK, he’s hitting way too many grounders, which obviously isn’t as easy a fix as it would seem to be.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

The issue with Yelich is that he has a seemingly chronic back problem and his power has completely evaporated as a result. They need to find a way to strengthen his back enough and then fix his timing (which is how he unlocked all that power from 2018-2019). He was hitting for more power in that Marlins park that swallowed homers than he is now in this lefty-friendly stadium; he needs to get back to hitting 20+ homers a year (in roughly 600 PAs) to stop from being a huge anchor on the Brewers’ playoff aspirations.

I don’t know how to fix his back, though. I’m sure he’s seeking out the best physical therapists in the world, but if he isn’t he should. Would PRP injections help? I mean, they probably won’t hurt, so it might be worth a shot. In terms of on-field stuff–will making him a permanent DH help? Moving him back to first base? With Winker and Tellez it seems like those two spots are pretty well locked down.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Backs are tricky, ST. See: Kershaw, Clayton

I’m sure his medical team is trying everything they can. I’m just a huge fan of the player and want to see him return to respectability.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

It’s not like Kershaw at all. Kershaw is still good, just less available. Yelich is just mediocre most of the time now.

FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

I was talking more about the chronic DL stints. I feel like he’s had a back flare up each year since 2017.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Oh, gotcha. That makes sense.

Mean Mr. Mustard
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

There really is no fixing a back problem for an athlete once it becomes a problem. Don Mattingly is a timely example, and the ghost of rosters past can barely carry the list of guys who either called it a day or faded away due to a bad back.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

That’s my basic understanding–that back injuries usually don’t heal entirely and you’re always at risk for aggravating it. I’d hope that medicine is better than back in Mattingly’s time, but it’s a stubbornly difficult thing to fix.

Mean Mr. Mustard
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

It’s not so much that the injuries themselves don’t heal entirely, it’s that they usually accelerate the spinal and/or muscular degeneration that everyone suffers as they age. The other common problem is persistent pain and/or weakness, because the lower back is incredibly nerve-dense with branches that can get pinched everywhere (check out a diagram sometime if you’re curious), and discs are weirdly prone to bulging.

TL;DR the human body was shabbily designed

tung_twista
3 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Looking back, Yelich’s extension timing was absolutely perfect.
Less than ten days after his $215M/9 year contract became public, 2020 season was delayed and spring training cancelled.
Without the extension, he would have been a free agent this winter.
He wouldn’t get a 6 year deal, but if for whatever reason, that was what he insisted, maybe he could get something like $60M/6 years?
So in the end, signing the recent extension was probably worth an extra $100M+ for Yelich.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/christian-yelich-cashes-in/

The comparison to McCutchen in the comment section is quite interesting.
They both signed team friendly extensions when they were younger.
Then. Yelich managed to cash out while he was still a superstar while McCutchen didn’t.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Of note: The Pirates realized that they already had him for his peak and didn’t extend him. The Brewers didn’t realize that, or they didn’t care.

I was skeptical of that deal for the Brewers but it turned out so much worse than I thought it would. I thought he would turn into a pumpkin in, say, 2022 or 2023, not 2020.

baubo
3 years ago

I think the “logic” behind the Brewers making this deal is obvious. They sell high (or at least sticker price) on a known commodity who’s getting up there in age, for 2 players at the bottom of their value both with upside.

It only seems odd because the Brewers are already a good team and such teams generally don’t want to add a bunch of risk. But when you have a strict spending limit and needs to win, sometimes you gotta take risks.

booondMember since 2019
3 years ago

Winker is a platoon DH, a good one, but that is his skill set, if healthy.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  booond

Winker is an every day bat, not just a platoon guy, if he can recover his old form.

Also, he’s not so horrendous defensively that you can’t play him in the corner outfield on occasion.

ravinggoat
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

He’s really not. Seattle knew he was a platoon DH when they got him but they ignored it.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  ravinggoat

Winker has easily been an every day bat every season except 2019 and 2022. His offense could easily rebound back to its previous level.

As for his defense, he’s not unplayable out there, so he’s still worth playing in RF for his bat alone with the current state of the Milwaukee outfield with Yelich in LF and Taylor in CF. Yes, it would be preferable to DH him, but the Brewers would have to acquire another decent OF bat who also plays significantly better defense than Winker, and I’m not sure they can do that on their budget

Giving Winker significant OF time gives them more options for then acquiring a relatively cheap, defensively limited slugger to be their primary DH even if he’s a 1B instead of an OF, or to provide time at DH for one of their more plentiful infield options.

terry48
3 years ago
Reply to  booond

To be fair, it was basically Wong’s role at the end of season due to his horrendous defense. And Wong got even more drastic splits against LHP compared to Winker.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

The Brewers have always bought low on left-handed hitters in stadiums that aren’t as good for left-handed power, because the weird right field wall in Milwaukee makes it very friendly to left-handers. This has become a defining feature of the Brewers’ front office. Yelich was a little different, because he was a star, but their reclamation projects include Travis Shaw, Rowdy Tellez, Dan Vogelbach, Mike Moustakas, Justin Smoak, Eric Thames, Ben Gamel, Jackie Bradley Jr., Curtis Granderson, Billy McKinney, Derek Fisher, and to a lesser extent, Kolten Wong and Neil Walker. They clearly think that the Mariners’, Blue Jays’, and Red Sox’s home stadiums are unfavorable to left-handed hitters in a way that Miller Park (I know they’ve changed the name, I don’t care to learn it) is not. They clearly think Winker is part of that group, and I think they may also think that’s true for Toro too.

That said, I think there’s some real question marks here, since Wong literally out-hit Winker last year and they’re not saving any money. I know Winker was hurt a lot last year and he absolutely crushes right-handed pitching, which is nice as long as they’re not going up against the Dodgers, but he kind of has to run a 120 wRC+ overall to justify keeping him because he has no defensive value at all and is going to get a lot of time off against lefties.

I had high hopes for Toro when he was a prospect–he doesn’t strike out a lot and he has the tools to play third base, which would be nice for the Brewers since Urias probably fits better at second base. But an xwOBA of .284 is just ugly; he’s just not hitting the ball hard at all. There’s a pretty good chance he’s just a Quad-A guy, and he probably needs to get a sustained chance for a bad team rather than shoved into a major role on a team that wants to contend.

To me, this is the Brewers rolling the dice on variance. The ceiling for Winker is a lot higher than Wong, but the floor is so much lower. Is that worth a deal where they save no money? I’m not sure.

Last edited 3 years ago by sadtrombone
fjtorres
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

To be honest, I’m not sure Milwaukee *expects* to contend.

Their budget seems tapped out, they have projects all over and the rumors of “not available” but maybe players suggests they might be looking to see how things playout this week before deciding if they need to twek, reload, or rebuild.

Having lost Sterns also puts the team direction in question.

A team to watch but not for the best reasons.

Last edited 3 years ago by fjtorres
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

I think you’re right; I think they’re staying the course much like the Guardians did a few years ago. It’s maddening.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Seems to have worked out for the Guardians.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

To follow the Guardians’ formula, it would be something like:
1) Trade Burnes, Woodruff, and Adames next offseason
2) Have Yelich return to his previous self two years from now
3) Have everyone else in the division be really bad
4) Get super lucky by getting an Andres Gimenez level breakout from one of the trades
5) Get a 4+ win player out of their current prospects (like Kwan)

I think the rest is doable.

Kevbot034
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Well, #3 is a strong possibility and maybe Toro is their Giminez lol

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

No, #3 isn’t likely as long as they play in the same division as the Cardinals, and the Cubs will likely keep getting better over the next few years.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Can they get St. Louis & The Cubs to hand the reigns over to Al Avila & Dayton Moore?

That may be there best shot for long term success.

GoatHerderMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Jed Hoyer and his “intelligent spending” is doing a pretty good job at making sure the Cubs are competing with Pirates and Reds for 3rd place in NL Central.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  GoatHerder

It’s *because* of that intellegent spending that the Cubs did significantly better than the Pirates and Reds and cruised, relatively speaking, to a 3rd place finish. They should be contending again in about a couple of years.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You don’t win 90 games just because the rest of the division is bad.

Cleveland is very, very good at player development.

proiste
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Yeah, but the Guardians also got incredibly lucky that Jose Ramirez decided to give them like a 30% discount to stay, which is a HUGE part of why they’re good right now (keep in mind they were about to send him to San Diego last offseason). I don’t think the Brewers can count on Burnes, Woodruff, or whoever else you think is comparable doing the same.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  proiste

True…but who developed Burnes, Woodruff, etc?

John WickMember since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  fjtorres

Seems pretty clear they’re going to see how the first half of the year goes and make calls on their big chips (Burnes, Woodruff, Adames) at that point. The WInker buy makes sense in this context — he could be a very productive platoon DH, the guy ran 140+ wRCs in 2020 and 2021, or he could be closer to what we saw in Seattle. Toro brings team control and position versatility, two things their FO also has a penchant for.

They’ve got a good group of starters that creates a decent floor for 2023 assuming health. A handful of rookies who look ready, with a wide variance based on how well and how quickly they can handle MLB pitching. And some probably-misguided hope that Yelich can get some of his power back even if the MVP form is long gone. They’ll bargin-bin hunt for some relievers and a catcher and some cheap veterans to fill out their bats, but I’m not expecting much more activity.

Hard to say without knowing what could be on the table for guys like Burnes or Adames, but I think this is the right call. I don’t think the return for 1.5 years of their starters is all that different than 2 years (Adames they probably get less for, since some suitors will fill their SS holes).

Last edited 3 years ago by John Wick
Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Keep their positions in mind, though. The Brewers are in better shape to replace their 2B internally than they were in the OF before getting Winker.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Winker is only nominally an outfielder. Asking the CF to cover both Yelich’s and Winker’s territory is much too large an ask. Maybe the CF can also make all the throws too while he’s at it.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

But they don’t currently have anyone better to play RF. Putting up with Winker’s defense out there is still better than giving significant ABs to Ruiz or someone else. They’d still need another OF who can play decently both offensively and defensively

At least with Winker they have a lot more options at DH, whether they do manage to get that extra outfielder and push Winker to DH, sign another relatively cheap, defensive limited bat to help DH, or also play some of their infielders at DH.

terry48
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Floor for Winker is probably higher than Wong’s. Won’t be surprised if Wong go back to old way of contact-oriented style and had around league average bat.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

A couple more things on the Brewers and their lineups–one of the weird things about the Brewers right now is that they’re loaded with left-handers who have upside but have some major question marks. Tellez might do better once the shift is gone but so far has been underwhelming, Yelich seems to be hobbled, Winker is a professional hitter who didn’t hit last year, Turang and Frelick have questionable power, Mitchell doesn’t seem to have the bat control to be a regular, Jon Singleton exists, and Caratini and Toro are switch hitters who are bad from both sides of the plate.

I think this might be okay if they had right-handed hitters who were the sort that scared opposing pitchers, but unless Adames or Hiura gets hot they don’t (and if Hiura isn’t hot he’s completely useless). This is not a contending lineup at all. They don’t have a single guy like Pete Alonso, or George Springer, or Ty France. But those guys aren’t typically available, and they aren’t available this offseason. (It would be super fun to see them offer $400M for Aaron Judge but they’re not going to). I don’t think they can get someone who we know opposing pitchers will routinely fear, and that’s too bad.

Probably what they’re going to do is sign Adam Duvall or Brian Anderson to bridge them until (hopefully) a time when Joey Wiemer is major league ready. Normally I’m in favor of trading Hunter Renfroe away as a matter of practice, but looking at the roster now this is a team that could really use a right-handed bat who plays right field.

nathanjMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

From the roster perspective, Winker replaces McCutchen from last year. Even with Winker’s powerless 2022, his bat was a win better than Cutch and as others mentioned, if any power returns, could be 2 or 3 wins better as long as he’s DH mostly. Winker oba would have been the highest on the Brewers in 2022, so definitely a need. I suppose Winker is DH and Yelich in LF against righties. Against LHP, Yelich is the DH and Taylor in the OF. They’re probably planning on Turang at 2b, and some young OFs get time, unless they add someone else.

g4Member since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The biggest shortcomings of the Brewers lineup in 2022 was A) a low overall OBP, and B) complete ineffectiveness against LHP. Winker could address the former in a way that no “affordable” free agent could. Necessary roll of the dice, IMO.

As for B, the Crew’s RH bats failed spectacularly to hold up their end of platoons. Adames, Taylor and Hiura have had even or reverse splits their entire careers so no surprise there. Brosseau had good surface numbers but was much worse when starting (usually vs a lefty). McCutchen flopping was an absolute killer. Renfroe was decent but all-or-nothing. Jon Davis was bad, and Ruiz never played.

Obviously, Toro will need to improve to help on that front, but the addition of Winker does make Taylor and Hiura that much more expendable at their respective positions (OF/DH). Don’t be shocked to see Robbie Grossman, Wil Myers, Hanser Alberto or Chad Pinder sporting the ball-in-glove next year.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Then again, there are some teams who make the playoffs (aside from just 2020) with dominant pitching despite a relatively weak offense such as the 2006 Padres and the 2015 Cardinals, the latter of which even won 100 games. Granted, they both lost in the first round, but they could’ve gone all the way with some better October luck.

couthcommander
3 years ago

While they might be happy to keep him, I could also see Winker having a short stay. Winker, cash, and prospects for Reynolds?

Kevbot034
3 years ago
Reply to  couthcommander

idt Pitt would, but they’ve probably done stranger.

catmanwayne
3 years ago
Reply to  couthcommander

That makes little to no sense for Pittsburgh. If they’re going to trade Reynolds, which they’ve said they won’t despite his demands, they want to be blown away. A rental DH and a few random minor leaguers doesn’t get it done when plenty of teams with OF needs can offer much more than that.

couthcommander
3 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

Not that anyone is still checking this, but I didn’t mean random prospects. MIL has a glut of 45+ OF prospects such as Wiemer, Mitchell, and Frelick (not to mention Chourio). A rental DH (who is being partially paid by MIL) could bring back another 40+ prospect in July.

Last edited 3 years ago by couthcommander
Domingo AyalaMember since 2024
3 years ago

I had the complete opposite take when I saw this trade go through. The Brewers got a guy who a year ago was a top hitter in the game, plus a young guy in Toro, for a middle-of-the-road second baseman.

ScottMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Domingo Ayala

Me too. Ruiz to 2nd to unclog OF.

Kevbot034
3 years ago

I think this is OK for Milly, actually. It’s 2 reclamation projects for a known commodity, yes, but the park is better for hitters and they should likely improve some from that alone. And Winker also is familiar with NL Central.
Toro grades roughly averageish at 2B and so maybe they figure if they just stick him there, he won’t be too much worse than Wong, knowing there is more upside and younger.

ravinggoat
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

Toro has played 3rd most of his time in the minors so in theory he could improve his play at 2nd. I wouldn’t expect him to be averageish though.

Kevbot034
3 years ago
Reply to  ravinggoat

In 900 MLB innings, he’s already been averagish though. He’s actually played 200 more innings at 2B than 3B in MLB (better at 3rd though, and with the shift changes, maybe you can’t hide him at 2B anymore; not sure how that will shake up).

g4Member since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Kevbot034

Failing another move to acquire infield, Urias will play 2B. Toro, if he learns how to hit, will get more opportunities at 3B.

bookbookMember since 2019
3 years ago

Winker’s chance to bounce back is higher anywhere besides Seattle. Toro’s chance to contribute feels mostly gone. Better prospects have gotten less chance to make it in the majors than he has.
Seattle is better off: even if they sign a shortstop. Seattle fans are angry, because they suspect Jerry won’t sign a shortstop unless there’s absolutely no other option….

catmanwayne
3 years ago
Reply to  bookbook

I’m one of the Mariners fans who likes this trade. Toro and Winker were brutal to watch all season, and combined they “contributed” zero wins. Wong was a supposed Dipoto target all the way back in the 2020 offseason, but wouldn’t budge on giving him that third year so he went to Milwaukee. Now Dipoto gets the man on a short term deal, like he wanted initially, and dealt two middling players who ultimately didn’t fit into his scheme.

jaysfan39Member
3 years ago

Probably a bit of a hot take but if Frazier gets the same kind of playing time next year as Wong I think he has the better season. Wong’s defense fell off a lot and his age I am not expecting enough a bounce back to counter act the regression I am also expecting with his bat especially playing in Seattle instead of Milwaukee.

Count me as liking this trade more for the Brewers then the M’s as I think Winker should thrive in Milwaukee if he can stay healthy and I like the Toro reclamation project especially as he still has an option so if he struggles in spring training he can start the year in AAA getting everyday at bats.

seattlefan68Member since 2018
3 years ago

I’d imagine Perry Hill will help Wong reclaim some of his past defensive prowess, even if not all the way back to his peak.

Lanidrac
3 years ago

If Toro was such a drag on a Seattle roster spot, why didn’t they just nontender him in the first place?

catmanwayne
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Once Haniger suffered his yearly freak injury the utility players (Moore/Haggerty) had covered the outfield. That left little depth for the infield so Toro ended up getting more playing time than he really should have. Mariners also gave time to Souza, Upton, Torrens, etc. as they were cycling through struggling rookies (Kelenic, Trammell), and dealing with injuries. That group, including Toro, combined for -2.4 fWAR. I don’t know what else Dipoto and Co. have cooking up, but I really hope they address the depth situation because it nearly killed the team’s playoff hopes.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

How does that lead to tendering Toro a contract this offseason? Putting up negative fWAR (for someone who’s not a DH or a P) just makes cutting him a even better decision. They then have all the rest of this offseason to address their position player depth.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
seattlefan68Member since 2018
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

He has an option and wouldn’t have made much in arbitration.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  seattlefan68

Then is the article wrong for claiming that the Mariners are better off without him on the roster at all? If that’s true, then there’s no reason not to cut the guy no matter how little he makes.

rburgh
3 years ago

The thing the Brewers know, we know too. Your grandmother could hit a ball out of Miller Park.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  rburgh

My grandmother is right handed, so no. But my great-aunt hits lefty (L/R, even), so she could do it.

rburgh
3 years ago

Adam Frazier – if you subtract out his 2021 stats with the Pirates, he’s a career .265 hitter with minimal power and a 7.5% walk rate. That wouldn’t be so bad if he was a terrific defensive 2B but, unfortunately for him, he’s only about average. And he’s going to turn 31 next Wednesday.

mdgwsu89
3 years ago

I like Winker’s chances to bounce back in Milwaukee. Just two years ago he was a deserving All-Star starter. His hard hit/batted ball numbers last year were a big drop off from the years prior, but I think some of that could be attributed to his knee/neck injuries. He has traditionally crushed the ball in Milwaukee, hitting .344/.440/.591 in that park even though the Brewers have had really strong pitching (small sample obviously, so make of that what you will). He has more homers in 109 plate appearances as a visitor in Milwaukee (5) than he has in Seattle, which was his home park for a full season (4). He also should benefit considerably from a shift ban.