Ten Position Players Who Have Most Helped Their Hall of Fame Cases in 2021
Which players have helped their Hall of Fame cases the most this year? The question comes up in almost every chat of mine, and sometimes in radio spots as well. You’d think I’d be used to this by now, but I rarely have more than an answer or two at the ready unless one of those players has recently been in the headlines for reaching a milestone. But with the end of the 2021 season in sight, and with the COVID-delayed Class of 2020 Hall of Fame Induction Day ceremony just a week away, it’s worth digging deeper for answers.
For this exercise, I’m focused mainly on mid- or late-career players rather than early-career ones. Yes, the five-win seasons of Vladimir Guerrero Jr., Juan Soto, and Fernando Tatis Jr. are solid steps towards attaining the ceilings we envision — and likewise for Shohei Ohtani given his singularly remarkable two-way season — but all of those players are at least half a decade away from the point when we can start to get real about their chances. JAWS and seven-year peak WAR gains are the major drivers of my selections in this piece and a companion one for pitchers, but positional standards, traditional milestones, and ordinal rankings are considerations as well. With one exception, all of the players below have surpassed 35.0 JAWS; roughly speaking, that’s the equivalent of seven five-win seasons, a point at which I start to take mid-career position players seriously. All WAR figures here refer to the Baseball Reference version, unless otherwise indicated.
One other thing to note: since my reference point for “old” WAR and JAWS figures dates back to January 2021, some portion of these players’ gains may be due to updates to bWAR itself, particularly via changes to 2019 and ’20 park factors and tweaks to 2017-20 Defensive Runs Saved that were announced in March, but also due to a second update to 2020 park factors that just went live on Tuesday.
Carlos Correa, Shortstop
(32.7 Career WAR | 32.7 7-Year Peak WAR | 32.7 JAWS, +6.7 JAWS)
Between some favorable changes to his DRS totals and an AL-leading 5.9 WAR (surpassed by Ohtani’s two-way total of 7.7), the 26-year-old Correa has boosted his JAWS more than any position player. It’s come at a particularly opportune time for the Astros, who bid adieu to George Springer this past winter and lost Alex Bregman for a good chunk of this season yet enjoy a comfortable five-game lead the AL West. It’s come at a good time for the shortstop as well, as he’s on the precipice of a big payday in free agency. Correa has gained traction in part because he’s already played in more games (121) than any season since 2016, his first full one in the majors, and he’s done all of this — hitting for a 132 OPS+, with 14 DRS — in the face of a whole lot of boos for his connection to the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal. Whether voters 15 or 20 years from now will forgive his involvement is unknowable; the best he can do is put up good numbers and stay out of trouble going forward, and hope that’s enough. Given his 99-game rookie season and his other injury-shortened (and pandemic-shortened) ones, his peak score is filled with low-hanging fruit; he has three seasons with 3.7 WAR or less, but now three of 5.9 or higher, and should continue gaining ground on the shortstop peak standard (43.2 WAR) if he can stay on the field.
Bryce Harper, Right Field
(38.6 Career | 34.3 Peak | 36.4 JAWS, +4.0 JAWS)
Harper has now played in 10 major league seasons, meaning that he’s cleared the most basic qualification for election. And while he’s a ways from clinching a berth in Cooperstown, unlike his 2012 Rookie of the Year counterpart Mike Trout, he’s recovered some of his lost mojo, hitting for a 175 OPS+, good for second in the NL and his highest mark since his MVP-winning 2015 season. Both his .420 on-base percentage and .594 slugging percentage rank second as well, and he’s also generating MVP discussion. He’s still got a long ways to go to secure a plaque, but as he nears his 29th birthday, he’s more than halfway to 500 homers (258, 26% odds according to ZiPSmaster Dan Szymborski). From a value perspective, it would be to his great benefit to stop leaking runs defensively; he’s at -7 DRS this year and counting.
Mookie Betts, Right Field
(50.0 Career | 47.7 Peak | 48.9 JAWS, +3.5 JAWS)
Even in a season in which he’s battled injuries — most notably, a bone spur in his right hip that will probably require offseason surgery — and struggled with inconsistency, Betts has hit for a 143 OPS+ with 19 homers and 4.2 WAR in 93 games. On Tuesday night, as I was writing this piece, he had another one of those tour de force games, where he demonstrated his batting, baserunning, and defensive excellence with a home run, a home run robbery, and then a mad dash to score what proved to be the decisive run in the Dodgers’ 3-2 win over the Braves.
Despite this being in just his eighth major league season, Betts owns the highest peak WAR of any active position player this side of Trout (64.9), Albert Pujols (61.7), and the currently-suspended Robinson Canó (49.4), and that total will continue to increase as the season goes on. His JAWS isn’t far off from those of current BBWAA candidate Gary Sheffield (49.3) and recent honoree Vladimir Guerrero (50.3). Can you believe the Red Sox traded this guy?
Manny Machado, Third Base
(44.5 Career | 38.2 Peak | 41.4 JAWS, +3.5 JAWS)
It feels like Machado has been around forever; like Harper, he’s now in his 10th season, but it’s still just his age-28 campaign (he turned 29 on July 6). Overshadowed somewhat by Tatis and the Padres’ slide out of the NL West race, Machado has quietly produced an exceptional season, with a 130 OPS+, 6 DRS, and 4.4 WAR. This is already his fourth most-valuable season; like Correa, he’s got some low-hanging fruit (three seasons of 3.8 WAR or less) to improve that peak score and approach the standard (43.1).
Nolan Arenado, Third Base
(43.4 Career | 39.5 Peak | 41.5 JAWS, + 3.2 JAWS)
With his recovery from last year’s power-sapping left shoulder injury and escape from the dismal Rockies franchise, Arenado has put himself back on a Hall of Fame track with a solid offensive season (26 homers, 119 OPS+, one point below his career mark). If there’s a concern, it’s that the 30-year-old hot cornerman’s defense hasn’t been up to his usual standards; his 6 DRS would be a career-worst, even relative to last year’s 48-game season (13 DRS). Even so, he’s already eighth all time in defensive runs among third basemen (135), should surpass Graig Nettles (140) in the not-too-distant future, and is just one run behind NL third base leader Austin Riley, suggesting that his winning a ninth straight Gold Glove is hardly out of the question. And since you’re probably wondering, 72% (13 out of 18) of eligible players with at least nine Gold Gloves have been elected, with Ichiro Suzuki poised to raise that rate once he reaches the 2025 ballot.
Jose Altuve, Second Base
(40.3 Career | 37.3 Peak | 38.8 JAWS, +3.1 JAWS)
After a miserable age-30 season in which he hit for just a 71 OPS+ with -0.2 WAR, Altuve is back in black, hitting for a 122 OPS+ with 25 homers and 3.3 WAR. Even with three batting titles and an MVP award, he still probably needs at least one or two more big seasons (5.0 WAR or more) to push his peak score closer to the second-base standard of 44.7 WAR. As for traditional milestones, his 133 hits thus far has pushed him to 1,743. As of late June, his ZiPS-driven odds of reaching 3,000 stood at 31%, down from 40% late last season despite his comparative durability; he served only a 12-day stint on the IL this year, due to a COVID-19 infection, where IL stints knocked him out for 26 days in 2018 and 39 in ’19.
While Altuve was said to have not participated much, if at all, in the Astros’ sign-stealing scheme — a claim recently amplified in Andy Martino’s Cheated: The Inside Story of the Astros Scandal and a Colorful History of Sign Stealing — the far-fetched buzzer/tattoo theory continues to float through the ether. Like Correa, Altuve will need more time to distance himself from the scandal; winning a championship without controversy, whether it’s this year or sometime down the road, would probably help that cause.
From below this point, my selections are driven less by JAWS gains and more by the aforementioned other considerations; there are a handful of players with gains of less than 3.0 JAWS (Nelson Cruz, Paul Goldschmidt, Josh Donaldson, and Freddie Freeman) that I’ll round up in Part 2.
Giancarlo Stanton, Right Field
(43.5 Career | 34.8 Peak | 39.1 JAWS, +1.2 JAWS)
After playing in just 41 games in 2019-20, the 31-year-old Stanton has been healthy enough to play 111 games this year and to bash 25 homers while producing a 137 OPS+ and 2.5 WAR. What’s more, after not playing the outfield at all in 2020 and the first half of this season, he’s made 14 starts at the corners in the past five weeks, generally in the service of the Yankees’ “Jumbo Package” outfield alongside Aaron Judge and Joey Gallo. That he hasn’t crumbled to dust while doing so is good news; an above-average fielder prior to injuries, Stanton can produce more value even by semi-regularly playing the field than parking at DH, as his 4.4 WAR while making 72 starts at the corners in 2018 attests.
Via Szymborski, Stanton’s odds at reaching 500 home runs, and possibly Cooperstown, dropped from 48% prior to the pandemic to 26% as of last week, though with seven homers in his last 13 games, he might have already restored a point or two to that figure.
Buster Posey, Catcher
(44.1 Career | 36.6 Peak | 40.4 JAWS, +1.2 JAWS)
After playing just 219 games in 2018-19 and then opting out last year, Posey looked as though he might be nearing the end of the line, but he’s provided vintage-grade offense, hitting .304/.397/.507; his 16 homers are the most he’s hit since 2015, while his 142 wRC+ is his highest ’14 campaign. What’s more, after three straight sub-.500 seasons, in what was supposed to be another rebuilding year, the Giants have surprised the baseball world by producing the majors’ best record through the season’s first five months. Odd-year magic?
Note that while Posey already clears the peak standard (34.8) and ranks 14th in JAWS among catcher, the figures above don’t include pitch framing, which I’ve argued will be essential to considering his Hall case and those of his contemporaries. Via my home-brewed FanGraphs Framing-Inclusive JAWS methodology for catchers, which uses FanGraphs’ version of WAR for the pitch-tracking years and Baseball Prospectus’ “retro-framing” methodology for the 1988-2007 period, Posey is over 11 points higher (51.7), and 2.0 points above his preseason total, well ahead of Yadier Molina (48.9) and within sight of Ivan Rodriguez (53.9) if not the leader, Mike Piazza (62.3). With seven All-Star selections, three World Series rings, MVP and Rookie of the Year awards as well as a Gold Glove, he’s already got a Hall of Fame resume; the question is whether the 34-year-old backstop can get the (gulp) 527 hits he still needs to reach 2,000. That’s a sneaky-important milestone, as no player with less than 2,000 hits whose career took place in the post-1960 expansion era has been elected, either by the writers or the committees.
Joey Votto, First Base
(63.4 Career | 46.9 Peak | 55.1 JAWS, +0.6 JAWS)
Currently tied with Salvador Perez for the major league lead in home runs since the All-Star break, Votto is in the midst of his best offensive season since 2017, hitting .269/.367/.549 (133 OPS+) with 28 homers and 2.3 WAR. Earlier this month, within the span of a few days, the going on 38-year-old surpassed the JAWS standard for first basemen and collected his 2,000th hit. As I noted just a couple weeks prior to that, such a combo generally puts a candidate in no-doubter territory, as the only players outside the Hall who meet both criteria and are currently eligible for election (five years retired, in other words, and not on the ineligible list) are Barry Bonds, Bill Dahlen, Rafael Palmeiro, Manny Ramirez, and Scott Rolen — three candidates stymied by their PED links, a long-lost candidate for the Early Baseball Era Committee (Dahlen), and a player who has shot from 10.2% in his first year on the ballot to 52.9% in his fourth (Rolen). Particularly given his resumé — six All-Star selections, an MVP award, and a Gold Glove — and popularity with writers, I don’t see Votto languishing on the ballot.
Miguel Cabrera, First Base
(69.0 Career | 44.8 Peak | 56.9 JAWS, -0.3 JAWS)
At the outset of the season, after his Opening Day home run in the snow, I noted that Cabrera had a chance not only to become the seventh player to reach the twin milestones of 500 home runs and 3,000 hits, but to become the first player to reach both in the same season. He hit no. 500 last week, but he’s currently in the midst of his fifth straight season with less than 1.0 WAR, and his second in that span below replacement level (-0.2 WAR), all of which is to say that his 3,000th hit is likely to come next year, as he needs 39 in the Tigers’ final 30 games, which ain’t happening for a .247.313/.385 hitter who runs as though he’s carrying the Molina brothers — Bengie and Jose as well as Yadier — on his back. Between his sub-zero showing and the WAR adjustments, he’s actually lost ground in JAWS, though he’s still comfortably above the first base standard (54.8), and his milestones and accolades — 11 All-Star appearances, four batting titles, two MVP awards, a Triple Crown — will carry the day.
I’ll be back with a small batch of pitchers and, briefly, a few more position players in my next installment.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
Why exactly is Miggy here?
Miggy’s HoF chance was basically 100% before the season started.
Surely there are other players like Freeman, Goldschmidt, Realmuto, etc. that deserve to be on the list more than Miggy.
Did you miss that there’s a part 2 coming (and that he specifically mentioned Goldschmidt and Freeman as players he’d talk about)?
I suspect because he broke 500 home runs, and that standard, albeit it devalued in the PED Era, is still relevant.
Realmuto is only 7 yrs and ~800games in, and respectfully, Goldschmidt ain’t making it (especially if he keeps striking out >20% and walking under 10%). Freeman’s an interesting candidate, and I wonder if Jay will be including him in his other position players (see his last sentence).
But come on–a 500th HR, like so many other round numbers, absolutely matters for HoF chances (or else why would we be “worried” about Votto or Posey not hitting 2k hits?).
Goldschmidt certainly has a chance. He needs about 15 more WAR to “be in range”. Obviously we don’t know what he’ll do going forward but he’ll finish this year with about 4-5 WAR depending on whether you look at BR or at Fangraphs. So the fact that he’s still productive is a positive sign for the coming years.
His power numbers are slightly up, but all his other numbers are trending down. He has no defensive reputation to fall back on. His peak is not noteworthy. He’s almost 500 hits away from 2k at a premium offensive position. He *could* get there, but I wouldn’t think it likely at 34.
“He has no defensive reputation to fall back on.”
Umm…three Gold Gloves??? Or +52 defensive runs on BR, +18 on Fangraphs.
“His peak is not noteworthy.”
Huh? 5 seasons above 5 WAR via BR or 4 on Fangraphs (plus a 4.9). MVP finishes of 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th.
“He’s almost 500 hits away from 2k at a premium offensive position.”
He’s only 49 hits behind Votto at the same age. And Votto crossed the 2000 hit barrier despite a poor 2019 and a poor/lost 2020.
I can see why you’d think he has no defensive reputation. I thought the same until he came to STL. He’s made our whole team better defensively. He’s no Keith Hernandez but he has to be top 5-10 at his position.
Sneaky fast as well. Lots of stolen bases
He’s likely to win his 4th Gold Glove this year, as well.
Agree with tung_twista. Cabrera was already a lock and the 500th HR was fun but not necessary. His sub-.700 OPS and negative WAR for a mediocre team did nothing for his chances.
There are many guys who helped their chances much more. I think Salvador Perez is another interesting example as he seems to have established a new level with his bat.
His WAR stats are basically an average player. While I agree that it underrates him a tad, even if he keeps hitting like this for another 5 years, he still wouldn’t come close.
His WAR stats are pretty good for a catcher. He does need to have several more good years to have a chance, but he already has some of the other HOF-like accomplishments (7 All-Star games, 5 Gold Gloves, World Series MVP).
The Gold Gloves, if we’re being honest though, are a farce based on the advanced information we have. Not quite a Derek Jeter 5 Gold Gloves farce, but still a clear case where they’re being awarded on reputation and not on substance
Well, you are right that Cabrera’s inclusion on the list is odd.
Yea Cabrera’s a HOF because of what he did at his peak, no level of poor play in his late 30s is going to change that.
Using the same logic though, I think there’s a lot of hollowness to reaching cumulative milestones. Pujols is an all time great, but it took 5 sub-replacement level seasons for him to reach 3000 hits and 600 home runs
Exactly.
“Every player not associated with PED who hit 500 home runs is a HoFer”
is true.
But if you actually look at the HoFers who hit 500 home runs, all of them would still be easily deserving HoFers if you chop off their final several seasons and they ended their career with ~490 home runs.
500 home runs is a big deal, but its importance to players’ HoF odds are misunderstood and exaggerated.
Tell that to Fred McGriff.
McGriff to me would fall short even if he happened to hit 7 more hole runs. Although it is laughable that the difference of 7 career home runs is why some voters didn’t for him.
Back to my original point though, he’s 37th among 1B in wRC+. I just don’t see a HOF there
I have no idea where you put the PA cut off on that, but any reasonable number places McGriff much higher. Also, league adjusted stats for clean players during height of steroid use should be taken with a grain of salt (of course you can’t truly know who the clean players were).
McGriff would 100% be in the hall of fame with seven more homers; whether he would to you is inconsequential.
Um, it was only during Pujols’s first sub-replacement season (2017) when he reached both the 600 HR and 3000 hit milestones.
Just as the poor play in his 30s should not exclude Cabrera from the Hall, it shouldn’t keep the best defensive centerfielder this die of willie mays out of the hall.
Great stuff as always Jay! Would also be interesting to see the opposite: an article on which players have most hurt their HOF chances this year.
Andrelton Simmons, Robinson Cano, Christian Yelich, and Stephen Strasburg all come to mind as players who have definitely seen their HoF changes go down this year.
Chris Sale, Cody Bellinger, Andrew McCutchen, Anthony Rizzo, and Jon Lester.
For Bellinger it’s not even just his HoF chances, it’s his entire career trajectory. I’m never one to have a kneejerk reaction about a guy but this season has been a disaster for him and I would be really disappointed if he doesn’t ever get back to near what his caliber could ahve been.
Sale aside, I wouldn’t say any of those names have HOF cases
Probably not, but most HOF players have better than expected second decades. A guy like McCutchen could easily build a HOF resume with a graceful decline. Partially due to injuries, that doesn’t seem to be in the cards. Going into 2019 he was 32 years old, and had 48 WAR and a MVP; definitely had a decent shot at the time and still could make a late career run.
Simply not happening. His last strong season was at age 28. His last merely good season was at age 30. The Phillies aren’t even picking up his $15m option for 2022. It’s all but over.
A shame, though. 38 WAR by 28? That was a player with an excellent shot at the Hall.
Would love to see something like this JAWS discussion combined with ZiPS projections from now vs before the season to see changes in chances of reaching the HOF standard.
I believe for Altuve, he’ll need to continue or possibly even improve off of this year’s success to have a viable shot at the HOF (considering the sign-stealing scandal, he’d have to boost his stats big time to convince voters he can perform without external help) regardless of his participation or not, and winning a ring post-scandal could only benefit his case
Cool.
Votto was the first guy who came to mind when I read the headline. In my mind he’s the one hitter who unambiguously punched his ticket to Cooperstown this year (Miggy was already a no-doubter to me). Going into the year, I saw him as a guy who might put up a few more years near replacement level to pad his counting stats, which IMO would have made him a deserving candidate but not a sure thing. After the throwback season he’s had, the only question is whether he gets in on the first ballot or has to wait a few years.
How similar is Todd Helton’s case to Joey Votto’s?
Todd Helton is basically just a slightly worse version of Joey Votto. Lower league adjusted offensive stats, lower peak, and voters hold Coors against him more than they realistically should. The only advantages that Helton has over Votto is 2 more gold gloves and a higher number of traditional counting stats.
In other words, very similar!
Helton is also hurt by Coors Field. For whatever reason Votto won’t be hurt for his own hitter friendly home park.
Isn’t the video of Altuve hitting a home run and then insisting that his teammates don’t tear off his shirt make the possibility of a buzzer not so far fetched? Isn’t there other evidence that he possibly used a buzzer?
“While Altuve was said to have not participated much, if at all, in the Astros’ sign-stealing scheme…”
Let’s say he didn’t use a buzzer. Did the team not bang the trash can during his at bats? Can someone please explain to me the argument that Altuve didn’t participate?
Honesty I don’t care one way or another and it flabbergasts me that people still have energy to be upset about what I consider to be an ugly but low grade scandal.
I hadn’t delved into the details about the cheating scandal but had accepted that it was highly likely Altuve participated and also probably used a buzzer. I thought this was the general consensus and it turned me from a fan of Altuve’s to indifference towards him.
Reading the above startled me that I was potentially so wrong about the situation. I’m curious about 1) If I am wrong and 2) How did I allow myself to be so wrong.
I’m hazy on the specifics but I think there’s been multiple members of the team who singled out that Altuve was generally against it/didn’t want it. Of course, take that for what you think it’s worth.
The buzzer piece is a separate story that has never been confirmed. The video is definitely strange and fits the narrative of him having a buzzer. The story Altuve gave instead (“I have a tattoo I’m embarassed about”) is fairly silly if not ludicrous.
By the way, Astros fan here talking.
Thanks for the response!
The buzzer thing – man that video of him holding his jersey and yelling “NooOOooo”, paired with the lame “but my wife!” explanation does seem damning. I don’t believe anyone has confirmed it actually was a buzzer, it would just seem weirder if there weren’t one given the video and the context.
I just don’t really care enough about the sign stealing schemes either way to believe they should move the needle on HoF cases. It’s obviously not worse than the gray area ‘PEDs before they were against the rules’ candidates. But is it worse than pitchers who have been using sticky stuff? I’d argue that if allegations are true and Verlander, Scherzer and Cole used sticky substances to get a competitive edge they likely profited more than Altuve or Correa did from sign stealing, yet I haven’t seen that conversation get much momentum.
Again, not making excuses, it was a pretty pathetic activity, it’s just not high on my outage meter.
Thanks for the response, OddBall!
I’m also not too outraged about the sign stealing scandal either. Mainly because I don’t know how it compares to the steroids, sticky substances, and other scandals. I simply don’t have the energy to try to figure out the relative impropriety and I think guys like Bonds, Arod, etc deserve to be in the hall.
I mean there has been a bit of a drop for Cole, but Scherzer is looking like vintage Scherzer. ROS I’d say he is the pitcher I’d most want to have on my team, assuming deGrom doesn’t just magically come back, I’d take current Scherzer over Cole without the sticky stuff.
Sale?
When folks did the breakdowns of all the footage, Altuve had the lowest frequency of trash can bangs or close to it. 2.8% compared to 13.8% for the team as a whole.
https://twitter.com/adams_at/status/1222506656828985344
Thanks for the response, 68FC. Definitely eye opening how infrequent Altuve received bangs.
Given the relative likelihood of other teams having similar schemes, I think it’s ridiculous that people still vilify the Astros
Asking whether there is a legitimate argument to be made for exonerating Altuve from the Astros sign stealing scandal is different from continuing to vilify the Astros.
They are vilified for being villains. They were caught, received no punishment, and have been completely unrepentant for it. They chose and continue to choose their path. Infamy and disqualification from the hall are what should accompany them.
The Red Sox, also caught, deserve the same fate.
As a Posey fan I’m overjoyed to see him (and the Giants) having a great year. He’s one whose counting stats will suffer if there is a lengthy work stoppage next year.
Dodgers fan here. If I had a ballot, then when Posey is eligible, I’d be voting for him in an instant.
He may be the guy who breaks the “2000 hits” rule, because at 100-115 per year he’s not getting there unless you really think he’s going to play at this level through his age 39 season. If he does hang around that long, and SF keeps him (and you have to think they’d want to, especially if he really does somehow retain that level of production to the end of his 30s), he better hope the DH comes to the NL soon because I doubt he’ll still be getting regular playing time in 2025 as a catcher.
Not to quibble, but unless you exclude Ohtani’s pitching WAR for some reason he is the AL leader, not Correa. 7.9 to 5.9 bWAR and 7.2 to 4.8 fWAR
Correa’s the leader among position players as position players. Otherwise, Robbie Ray would be ahead of him too.
Fair enough. Ohtani is the overall leader, though, and it stinks that there isn’t a board with him on top.
It’s weird that FG leaderboard for pitchers doesn’t include offense/defense. Particularly for Ohtani, but also for other players.
Yadier Molina? He’s had another decent year at age 38-39 while further padding his borderline offensive counting numbers. (Plus, unlike what some people think, I don’t consider him to be a no-doubter, although I do expect him to get in eventually.)
His WAR totals line up with current HOFers. I just wonder with this whole group of catchers coming up (McCann, Mauer,Posey, Martin) I wonder if one of them ends up getting left out
I think Mauer/Posey/Molina will make it, Mauer and Posey because they deserve it, and Molina because the narrative is already being constructed around him even though he might not actually deserve it.
Totally agree. I don’t think Martin or McCann make it, and I don’t think Perez does, either.
I’m wondering where Jose Ramirez is. Hes right behind Arenado in career WAR he’s younger than Arenado and he’s having another terrific year. He doesn’t have the accolades of most of these guys but he’s 28 and zips really likes him for the next few years.
I asked Jay re: Ramirez in an online chat and he was dismissive re: his HOF chances. Which was surprising. Particularly because in a separate chat he spoke positively about Xander Bogaerts’ chances.
Obviously Ramirez and Bogaerts play different positions but it’s an interesting comparison because they were born only a couple of weeks apart and both debuted in the majors at the age of 20. Despite having nearly 800 fewer PAs than Bogaerts, Ramirez leads him in career WAR on both BR (+4.3) and Fangraphs (+1.8). And he also has a higher peak. And reflecting that higher peak, he’s done better than Bogaerts in MVP voting. About the only reason that I can see to think that Bogaerts has a better HOF chance than Ramirez is because of the difficulty that Third Baseman have in getting elected to the Hall. Otherwise, I really don’t understand where Jay is coming from.
Absolutely, this makes a lot of sense. Jose is on a path. He also compares very favorably to Machado, who he will likely catch in WAR within another season or two. Maybe there is some small town bias going on here. But Jose really looks HOF worthy and this season would seem to only help as he kicks off another 6 WARish season.
Yeah if not for the abbreviated season last year Jose would be pretty comparable to Scott Rolen age 28
And Jose absolutely should have an MVP to his name, also.
Watched the Mookie highlight. Even in those few seconds Orel’s blabbering bugged the heck out of me. I prefer Nomar. But if Orel would just cut his utilization in half he’d be great. (Really miss Vin).
If Molina is a sure fire HoF catcher Posey must be as well right?
Posey is a conundrum.
He’s had a great career, but Buster is still short of 1,500 hits — and though he’s got the 3 rings, he has unfortunately not been a good playoff performer (.649 OPS overall, and 100 points lower than that in NLCS + World Series competition) so he gets no special boost beyond the championships themselves.
As for specific yardsticks, on one hand, his JAWS Hall Of Fame case is already pretty solid…but on the other, by Bill James’ Hall Of Fame Monitor he’s well shy of the 100 standard, and as a frame of reference he’s less than half way to Molina’s career total. (Buster 77 points v. Yadi 169 points.)
Posey just needs a boost somewhere. The last time he had 45+ ribbies in a season was 2017. Last time he had 15+ homers was six years ago. I don’t think he needs 2,000 hits or 1,000 RBI, but he needs substantially more than he has, say 250 additional hits and/or 120 driven in. Something like that would truly cement him for me. Buster has quality out the wazoo, but for many of the voters the counting stats and October heroics aren’t quite there *yet*, I suspect.
———————
Oh, and I have a tiny technicality quibble with one point in the article. I think there’s six eligible guys with 9+ Gold Gloves who are not in the Hall, rather than five. Torii Hunter, Andruw Jones, Omar Vizquel, Hernandez & Mattingly, and Jim Kaat.
Im old enough remember Kaat just a little bit. He really could field.
Carlos Correa has one of the biggest splits between career fWAR and bWAR in MLB. Were JAWS able to use the former, he wouldn’t really be in this discussion yet.
Also, why must we disrespect Jose Ramirez so?!
Preach. Jose Ramirez to me is far and away the most under appreciated player of his generation
If anyone else is curious, as I was in the discussion of Nolan Arenado, which players have 9+ Gold Gloves and aren’t in the HOF, the list is: Jim Kaat (16), Keith Hernandez (11), Andruw Jones (10), Torii Hunter & Don Mattingly (9). Vizquel (11), Ichiro (10), and Yadi (9) TBD.
Andruw Jones is also TBD.
Why is Betts treated diferent than Altuve and Correa?
I think Posey is the most interesting candidate because he sort of breaks the model in various ways.
In the AL, Abreu is the most interesting to me. Some peripheral stats like he’d hit data from his “bad” years in 2018-2019 imply he was really just unlucky.
And obviously had had no chance at the hall in a normal case— but if his Cuban years were included in his case (years he would have played in the US if he could have escaped) he looks just like a hall of fame player. He debuted at the top level of Cuban baseball at age 16 and proved over the next decade in Cuba that he was the best hitter on the island and perhaps the best ever produced by the island.
In the US he has frequently looked like one of the best hitters in the world, especially in 2016 and 2020. He is on pace to lead the AL in RBIs again, for the third year in a row. It’s the oldest and silliest of the traditional stats, but it’s also a stat both Abreu himself and the people above him in the old school Sox org care about a lot and he works towards it so it becomes worth mentioning just because they give it that importance. He’s turned into an excellent defender; a team leader, etc etc.
Before 2020 the idea of Abreu ever finding some way to sneak into the hall would have been pretty silly. But with the league finally recognizing the Negro Leagues leagues stats and Abreu winning the MVP last season, it’s not so far fetched anymore. Probably a veteran’s committee type case but still an interesting one. He would need to keep hitting until he’s nearly 40 like Nelson Cruz… but that’s also very much in the realm of possibility for a guy like him.
I can’t disagree, exactly, with anything you say re Abreu. He’s certainly been an “RBI man,” if it can be said of anyone. Career splits:
Bases Empty .835 OPS
One Man On .880
Two Men On .930
Bases Loaded .993
But to me, the trouble is right there in front of us. The OPS, or OPS+ numbers overall just don’t quite make it. Not for a HOFer with no defensive or baserunning value. Without October heroics or *big* counting stats, his 135 OPS+ feels about 8-10 points light — and he hasn’t suffered through the late career decline phase yet.
Of course, his best years were almost surely 2010-13, when his cumulative Serie Nacional performance was something like .410/.550/.860. Thanks for nothing, Fidel.
And Raul!
Jazz and Joc had me loving you, your hate of Fidel not so much. You anti comunist bastard
Doubtful. Cuba has a population of 11 million. The “top level” of Cuban baseball can’t be taken all that seriously, given the cohort it draws from is the same size as Ohio. Isn’t A ball a better comp than MLB?
A semi-overlooked factor in all this is how the electorate has changed. For example while Votto is clearly hall-worthy by his advanced stats, in the olden days he would have had some difficulty given that he’s a corner guy who is not going to reach 500 or 3,000 or even get that close. That doesn’t mean he would never get in, but he would wait a bit. Maybe a long bit. But given his career revival this year we’re probably looking at at least 7 or 8 years before he’ll be on the ballot, during which time the electorate will become even more stat friendly. He’ll have a much better chance of getting in immediately or close to it.
I think Posey is a lock, maybe not first year, but very soon after if so. He’s likable, he’s a winner, he’s got a ton of hardware, and was a legit offensive star as a catcher which is extremely rare. I don’t see the fact that he won’t get to 2,000 putting much of a dent in that. He’d get mulligans for 2011 and 2020 anyway.
I’m not seeing Stanton or Arenado this point. Ditto Altuve. 2Bs already have to move mountains to get elected, and he’s going to have a few factors working against him.
Seriously? No Aaron Judge?
Judge has no chance. He’s 29, has 145 home runs and 550 hits. Even if he doubles those numbers, he’s nowhere close.
I agree, but I’d give Judge a slightly higher than a “no chance” rating, even if it’s a 5-8% range. He’s a HOF talent, meaning he has exceptional skills and is highly productive, but he also lacks a HOF runway due to age and injuries. He’s at approximately 25 career WAR. If he’s at approximately 50 career WAR at age 34 and still producing, we will have to reconsider him more as peak case, setting himself up if he ages well post 34. In other words, he’ll have re-established a runway to get there. Someone like a Mark Cana or a CJ Cron, regular players with value, are clear no-chance players, while a Judge is a highly skilled “let’s check back in a few seasons” player.
Kyle Seager