The Universal Designated Hitter May Be Here to Stay

We’ll always have his epically improbable 2016 home run, but Bartolo Colon ain’t walking through that door. If the players union and the owners can agree to something along the lines of the latest volley of proposals without immolating themselves in fiery rhetoric — now that they’re at 100% pro rata, it shouldn’t be that difficult, yet here we are — then the days of pitchers hitting are likely at an end. Per the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel’s Tom Haudricort, MLB’s most recent proposal includes a universal designated hitter not only for this year, but for 2021, and ESPN’s Jeff Passan and Jesse Rogers report the same is true for the union’s latest proposal. Beyond that, as Haudricourt notes, a universal DH is “almost certainly” going to be included in the Collective Bargaining Agreement that takes effect for the 2022 season. Not that hammering out that CBA will be a simple matter given the bad blood between the owners and the union, but it does appear that whenever they get around to playing again, the National League will finally join every other major circuit except Nippon Professional Baseball’s Central League in adopting the DH.

The DH has been around since 1973, though its roots go back to the late 19th century. As the role of the pitcher became more important, necessitating they concentrate on improving that aspect of their game, the feeling was that pitchers should be excused from their offensive duties. While movements to adopt a “tenth man” came and went from time to time prior to World War II, it took until the late 1960s, amid declining offenses, for the Triple-A International League and various other minor leagues to begin experimenting. The AL and NL could not agree on whether to adopt the DH; they voted separately, and you know the results. The original plan was that after three years, both leagues would either adopt or discard the rule, but the AL enjoyed the significant bumps in scoring and attendance in the wake of the rule’s adoption, and the two differing brands of baseball were maintained.

That was easy to do so long as there was no interleague play, but the World Series presented an awkward clash. From 1973-75, no DH was used, while from 1976-85, an “Even-Odd” scheme was used, with the DH in the even-numbered years, and since then, the “When in Rome” scheme has been used, with the DH present in AL parks but not NL ones. That scheme was extended to the regular season when interleague play began in 1997. Thus the two brands of baseball have generally coexisted in peace for nearly half a century, albeit not without endless debates contrasting the purity of the game with its need to adapt, as well as the occasional push within the game to move one way or the other. Because the position’s duties tend to be filled by higher-salaried veterans, the Players Association sought the universal DH in negotiations for the 2011 and ’16 CBAs. They didn’t get it either time, but now it’s a useful bargaining chip for the owners to throw into the pot, and notable that the players have maintained it in their counteroffers.

For purists, the triumph of the DH and the end of pitchers hitting may be a dark day for baseball, and regardless of which side of the DH divide you fall on, your mind is likely made up. For my money, it’s past time for the pastime to move on from pitchers hitting, because while their occasional home runs are generally quite entertaining (unless it’s your team serving one up), watching the average pitcher hit is like watching a de-winged insect attempt to fly, a downright pitiful sight. Consider the numbers:

Aside from a one-year spike in 1974 — the second year of the designated hitter, when NL pitchers somehow mustered their best efforts and hit a sizzling .165/.208/.204 for a 15 wRC+ — pitchers’ collective wRC+ hasn’t been above 10 since 1958, three years before the majors’ first expansion, and it hasn’t been above zero since 1983. Since interleague play began, only six times has it been higher than -10, the last of which was 2011. It’s been -13 or lower every year since, numbers that resemble the average temperature of the South Pole in January, which is to say, well below zero even at the height of summer. Brrrrrr.

To put that back into slash-stat terms, here are pitchers’ annual batting averages, on-base percentages, and slugging percentages during the interleague era:

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Last year, pitchers hit for a .128 average, 20 points lower than in 2000, the high for this period. They got on base at a .160 clip, 27 points below the high of .187, last seen in 1999, and they slugged .162, 30 points below the high of .192, set in 2000. The last time pitchers hit .200 was in 1930, the year the entire NL hit .303. The last time they managed a .200 on-base percentage was in that fluky season of 1974; aside from that, you have to dial back to 1961. The last time they slugged .200 was in 1977, the very periphery of my time watching baseball, more on which momentarily.

While many pitchers were also position players in the amateur ranks, the fact is that pitchers don’t get to hone their offensive skills once they reach pro ball; they don’t hit all in the lower minors, and generally do so in Double-A and Triple-A only when both clubs are NL affiliates. By the time they reach the majors, they’re far out of practice, and if they’re not on an NL club, they may only swing a bat a few times a year. Last year, no AL pitcher made more than 10 plate appearances, and only four collected multiple hits.

But even including NL pitchers, these guys hardly stand a chance at the plate. Over the past five years, 161 pitchers have made at least 50 plate appearances. Only six of them have hit for at least a 50 wRC+, and just 17 have managed a 25 wRC+:

Best “Hitting” Pitchers, 2015-19
Name Team PA HR AVG OBP SLG wRC+
Michael Lorenzen Reds 145 7 .235 .279 .432 84
Brandon Woodruff Brewers 71 1 .254 .288 .365 70
Steven Brault Pirates 93 1 .265 .282 .337 66
Madison Bumgarner Giants 336 13 .188 .248 .349 61
Tyson Ross – – – 115 2 .224 .250 .316 59
Zack Greinke – – – 334 5 .231 .258 .339 54
Jose Fernandez Marlins 83 1 .229 .239 .314 49
Taylor Jungmann Brewers 52 0 .244 .261 .289 48
Adam Wainwright Cardinals 200 4 .194 .215 .349 46
Brent Suter Brewers 57 1 .167 .259 .250 41
Francisco Liriano – – – 113 2 .220 .227 .303 37
Jake Peavy Giants 72 1 .190 .227 .270 36
Vince Velasquez – – – 150 1 .224 .246 .261 33
Hyun-Jin Ryu 류현진 Dodgers 136 1 .176 .246 .231 33
Noah Syndergaard Mets 251 6 .153 .206 .266 29
Kyle Kendrick – – – 51 1 .182 .234 .295 26
Jacob deGrom Mets 337 3 .184 .225 .234 25
Ty Blach – – – 92 1 .167 .224 .231 23
Steven Matz Mets 197 3 .172 .203 .253 22
German Márquez Rockies 184 1 .233 .233 .302 22

Yes, it will be a bit of a bummer if Bumgarner doesn’t get to swing a bat, and the same goes for Greinke, but the latter is already marooned in the AL after his late-2019 trade to the Astros. The two-way Lorenzen experiment is a different matter; the righty reliever played 30 games in the outfield last year, even starting six, but per the new roster rules, which set the threshold for two-way players at 20 innings pitched and 20 starts at a position with at least three PA per game, only Shohei Ohtani qualifies as such, and that because of the parenthetical inclusion of the 2018 season (he didn’t pitch last year due to Tommy John surgery). None of this precludes the Reds from using Lorenzen as an outfielder, but he still counts towards the 13-pitcher limit.

From 2010 to ’19, pitcher strikeout rates jumped nearly 10 percentage points, from 33.7% to 43.5%, that while their walk rates remained virtually unchanged (3.2% to 3.1%). When they do make contact, they’re grounding into double plays more often (1.47% of all plate appearances vs. 1.06%), and executing successful sacrifice bunts less often as well (0.84% vs. 1.02%). Admittedly, I haven’t controlled for the number of opportunities in either of those two cases, but even without that adjustment, I don’t think they add up to a more entertaining game.

Facts and figures only go so far when it comes to letting pitchers hit versus adopting the designated hitter, however. I get it, because I grew up on National League baseball. The first home run that I can remember being hit by a pitcher was when the Phillies’ Steve Carlton went yard against the Dodgers’ Don Sutton in Game 3 of the 1978 NLCS. I recall being amazed upon learning that J.R. Richard not only homered during the 1978 season but had enough at-bats (101) to be listed in the batting stats appendix of All-Pro Baseball Stars 1979, and while we’re on the subject of the Astros and Dodgers, I also remember Nolan Ryan clubbing a three-run homer off Sutton in the former’s Astros debut on April 12, 1980, an NBC Game of the Week that ended up going 17 innings; I insisted upon trying to keep a box score of the five-hour, 35-minute marathon even at the dinner table, an early sign that I was destined to make a living as a baseball nerd.

I lived for that weirdness, and to some extent, still do. Colon’s May 7, 2016 home run off the Padres’ James Shields isn’t just a baseball anniversary that’s celebrated in the Jaffe-Span household (I even bought the Topps Now commemorative card), it inspired the “working title” of our in-utero daughter, whose nickname “Bartola” lives on in my mother-in-law Paula Span’s “Generation Grandparent” column in the New York Times, and in a banner hanging on my daughter’s bedroom door, a memento of the baby shower thrown by my wife’s Sports Illustrated colleagues.

If the DH aspect of the current proposals remains intact, I will have the distinction of having covered the last 1-0 complete game shutout in which a pitcher’s home run accounted for the game’s only run, accomplished by Syndergaard against the Reds last May 2. It was just the 10th such performance in major league history, making it more rare than a perfect game (of which there have been 23).

As all of these examples should illustrate, the pull of pitchers hitting, and a major facet of the argument against the universal adoption of the DH, is an emotional or sentimental one rather than a rational one. We can talk about the fun of pitchers hitting home runs, which happened an average of 24 times a year from 2015-19, or just shy of once a week over the course of a six-month season, but that’s a lot of tedium — bad bunts and weak strikeouts — to wade through just to get to a dinger, and most of those homers won’t bring a nation together the way Bartolo’s blast did.

On the other side of the coin, we can cite the career-altering injuries of players such as Jake Peavy, Mark Prior, and Chien-Ming Wang, or even the serious but less severe injuries of the likes of Josh Beckett, Clay Buchholz, A.J. Burnett and Randy Johnson that could have been prevented with the adoption of a DH. Both sets of examples rely upon the availability heuristic, a cognitive bias that relies upon the examples that immediately come to mind rather than a representation of the full set of information that we need to make an informed decision (for more about this, see Keith Law’s new book, The Inside Game). Are pitcher home runs fun? Hell yes. Does the overall per plate appearance entertainment value of a pitcher at-bat rival those of position players? Probably not. Are pitchers more likely than other players to get injured while batting or running the bases? I’m not sure anybody’s studied it, but I know that I’ve been guilty of simply citing the most severe examples in past arguments.

To these eyes, the loss of strategy via the elimination of pitchers’ hitting is a red herring, at least for the most part. Sabermetrics has already shown that sacrifice bunting is generally counterproductive, reducing a team’s chances of scoring; that goes even moreso when the bunting is done badly, with the attempt failing to advance a runner either due to a bad bunt or a strikeout. Pitching around the number eight hitter to get to the pitcher is often a no-brainer that makes for a dull-as-dishwater sequence, a fine time to visit the concession stand, the refrigerator, or the restroom. And look, we all need a break or two from the three-hour marathons that the games have become, but one can just as easily time such jaunts to coincide with the increasing number of pitching changes, not to mention the increased time between pitches, the largest driver of increased game lengths.

Even with the new roster rules (which may be tweaked, depending upon the outcome of negotiations), they would still make for much shorter benches than in past decades, limiting the number of opportunities for managers to pinch-hit for a pitcher or make a double switch — and nobody shows up to the ballpark anticipating a double switch. You want strategy? A manager deciding when to use a pinch-hitter or a substitute that hasn’t been dictated by his own need to change pitchers, but may force the opponent to do so — that’s strategy.

The relatively sudden application of the DH leaves some NL teams better positioned than others — the deeper ones, basically. Craig Edwards examined this in early May, identifying players such as the Cardinals’ Matt Carpenter, the Dodgers’ Max Muncy, the Rockies’ Daniel Murphy, the Reds’ Jesse Winker, and the Brewers’ Ryan Braun as seeing the biggest gains in playing time, and the largest value bumps for their respective teams. The Mets, who have a position player logjam that includes Yoenis Céspedes (if healthy) and Dominic Smith, have depth, but project to be one of the worst teams, though if Smith hits more like he did last year (133 wRC+) than prior (78 wRC+ in 2017-18), they have nothing to worry about even though, as shown in the table above, they’re losing out given the skills of deGrom and Matz at the bats (Syndergaard, alas, is out for the year due to Tommy John surgery).

As for the long-term ramifications, the universal DH is one way to alleviate the pinch felt by over-30 players over the last few years, but I’ll save any analysis over which players might benefit the most for another day. Likewise, I’ll direct you to former colleague Travis Sawchik’s 2019 breakdown at FiveThirtyEight, where he covers DH-related trends such as the two leagues’ scoring rates, starting pitcher workloads, and pace of play. This is a big move, one that won’t please all the people, and won’t be quickly digested. But it’s one whose time has come – and now. We’ll just have to hope that we see it in 2020, before the owners and players find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yet again.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

74 Comments
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Cubbie23Member since 2019
6 years ago

Deep in my baseball heart I will never accept the universal DH but after watching NL pitchers really muck around with their terrible at bats and constant threat of injury running to first base over the last few years (coupled with Jay’s excellent statistical breakdowns), I too have come the last stage of grief, acceptance.

One thing is for certain, there is no stopping them. The DHs will soon be here. And I, for one, welcome our new DH overlords. Like to remind them that as a trusted Internet commentator, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground DH caves.

brentdaily
6 years ago

Fun quirk given the article’s context:

Brandon Woodruff (pitcher) always gets auto linked to the Brandon Wood (hitter) page. Brandon Woodruff’s WRC+ is higher than Brandon Wood’s.

zurzlesMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  brentdaily

Yeah but Wood’s gonna break out any day now. Just look at those AAA numbers! He’s a future MVP!

raikuraMember since 2019
6 years ago

Growing up NL, I don’t know all the details of the DH rules. Would it be possible for a starting pitcher or opener to be his own DH, then leave the mound and finish the game as just the DH? I know AL teams haven’t had their two-way pitchers hit when pitching, but is there a stipulation in the rules specifically against it?

Da Bear
6 years ago
Reply to  raikura

This is legal in college ball, but not MLB.

sadhulkMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  raikura

It would be fun to see this happen with healthy Shohei or Brendan McKay, but the pitcher can’t hit without losing the DH spot entirely

raikuraMember since 2019
6 years ago
Reply to  sadhulk

I read up further on the MLB rules. We could see a two-way player start the game as the DH or pinch-hit for the DH, then take the mound later. The only risk is that you’re gambling that the hitter/pitcher will finish the game. Would be cool to see someone like Lorenzen or Ohtani start at DH, then close the game out.

AnonMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  raikura

Lorenzen is not a good enough hitter to justify starting him at DH. Ohtani is, but he’s the only guy that could justify it and at least for now (& probably the foreseeable future), he’s a starter.

crew87Member since 2016
6 years ago

I’ve accepted that the DH is coming to the NL in my lifetime, but I’m still sad to see it here.

I acknowledge that there aren’t many rational arguments to be made for pitchers hitting, but I do think it comes down to an aesthetic preference. I’m willing to put up with full seasons of futility from pitchers hitting to have one moment like Brandon Woodruff’s homer off Clayton Kershaw in the 2018 NLCS game 1, which I was there for. To be honest, I can’t remember how any other runs were scored that game off the top of my head. I will never forget that moment as long as I live, and that, to me, is worth the 0.4 runs per game a universal DH would add.

And why this seems to be an answer from MLB is confusing to me. I think it’s pretty well established that on the average, the NL fans like no DH and AL fans like the DH. To institute a rule that half of fans are opposed to (even if we’ll all get used to it, I’m sure) seems like it should be at the bottom of the list of things to tinker with at the moment.

Psychic... Powerless...
6 years ago
Reply to  crew87

Aesthetically I like the concept of nine players who each hit and field.

OlanMember since 2020
6 years ago

Exactly. Baseball is a game of beautiful symmetries. One of which is all players field and all players bat.

bly
6 years ago
Reply to  crew87

yeah, I love the stupid smile Scherzer gets when he gets to first safely. He’s always like “yeah, I’m cool, I totally do this all the time.” while trying to hide a smile from ear to ear.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  crew87

it’s also mathematically simpler, making it axiiomatically (lol) more elegant. Forcing players to bat and defend all their positions is necessarily a simpler game.

Honestly, they should go the other way and force all 9 players who start the inning to finish the inning- basically, if you want to put in a reliever, they must be on the field at the start of the inning and bat when their turn comes up.

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

To those of us who appreciate the elegance of 9 vs 9, the futility of pitchers at bat is also somewhat of a feature, not a bug. It is precisely the maneuvering around the pitcher’s spot that gives rhythm and structure to the NL game — without imposing any artificial distinction or special rule. That is a mark of elegant game design.

I will be deeply, deeply saddened the day a DH waddles to the plate in an NL park. It’s just so wrong-headed.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

I’d love a formal form of it like cricket- the 9 you’ve got are the 9 you get. But that will never happen, unfortunately.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
6 years ago

I’m pretty sad about this, because (1) I like the strategy around when to pinch-hit for a pitcher and (2) the excitement over pitchers that actually can hit even a little (Woodruff, Bumgarner, Lorenzen) is just great. And that’s before we delve into the excitement over two-way possibilities.

I would really like to see some proposal that preserves some aspect of pitchers hitting, but I don’t know what it would look like.

dl80Member since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Someone in a different article thread posted about having the DH tied to the starting pitcher, so that when the pitcher comes out, you lose the DH. You could presumably still pinch hit, so you probably wouldn’t see many pitchers hit (which is a good thing, in my opinion). But it might also keep starters in longer, which a lot of people would support.

Sittch
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

That’s an interesting idea🧐

Da Bear
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

To slightly modify this idea: Instead of nominating a DH, a team might be allowed to hold the privilege in reserve, and when a new pitcher enters the game, the team would be allowed to designate “This is the one pitcher in the game we would like to be allowed to DH for, will be DH’ing for him, and as long as his relief stint lasts, so does the opportunity to leave the DH in.” That way you invite the strategic depth of being able to use an opener if your pitching staff is suitable for it, without facing the disadvantage of a DH slot that’s tied to that opener or else unusable at all, and will thus get one AB at most.

MikeSMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  dl80

I support keeping pitchers in longer, but with 13 man pitching staffs and short benches, you might see relievers hitting more because you don;t have enough position players to hit for them. The only thing duller than watching a starting pitcher flail at the plate is watching a reliever do it. The median wRC+ for relievers is -100.

Dave from DCMember since 2018
6 years ago

Maybe it’s just me, but I always appreciated the leagues having different DH rules. One of those idiosyncrasies that make baseball wonderful, I think. I accept both arguments: universal DH is better for players, but it eliminates some strategy from the game. Let’s have our cake and eat it, too, I say!

CoryMC
6 years ago

Congrats NL teams, now you can have front offices make silly decisions like paying money to watch past-their-primes Billy Butler and Kendrys Morales! I like the DH but I hope most teams are smarter about using it as a rotating rest spot or chance to get some young guys ABs rather than dedicate it to someone.

Sittch
6 years ago
Reply to  CoryMC

Unless you have a David Ortiz-type guy

dukewinslowMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  CoryMC

there seems to be a lot of edges around the DH that people really aren’t exploring outside of, like, the Rays

nicklocarnoMember since 2020
6 years ago

Since most pitcher injuries are the result of pitching – rather than hitting – it might be for the best if the DHs do the pitching, too.

phillipmike02
6 years ago

Thank God, long time coming. Watching pitchers hit was cringe and watching people defend it is even worse.

Any team (AL or NL) can still have their pitcher hit with the inclusion of the DH.

“The American League rulebook is perfectly fine with pitchers batting. It’s also fine with designating a player to bat in place of the pitcher. If the pitcher decides to bat today, he’s considered a hitter rather than a “designated” hitter.”

“The DH may only be used for the pitcher (and not any other position player), as stated in Rule 5.11. … If a team does not begin a game with a DH, the pitcher (or a pinch hitter) must bat for the entire game. The designated hitter may be replaced as DH only by a player who has not entered the game.”

So if NL managers think having their pitcher bat will help them win games, they are more than welcome to continue the tradition.

JoelAT
6 years ago

Has anyone done a statistical breakdown of how much offense the DH brings to the league over the whole “experiment” that the AL has run? Is it such a huge uptick in offense it makes no sense to not have universal DH? The differences between the two leagues (first it was same umpires) is fading quickly, making for a question as to why have two separate leagues.

Dan GreerMember since 2018
6 years ago
Reply to  JoelAT

Napkin math puts it at close to half a run per game. I’m sure there’s a more precise answer though.

AnonMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  JoelAT

IF you click through to that Fivethirtyeight article that Jay linked, it has a chart with the league differences. It has varied over time from no difference in the mid-70’s to more than half a run in the mid-90’s.

David Klein
6 years ago

I’ve been hoping the dh would come to the nl for a couple decades now as I’ve always found pitchers hitters embarrassing, and nonsensical and selfishly as a Mets fan well they’ve been well positioned to have the dh for a very long time. . If we get to see baseball anytime soon it would be nice to see Ces and JD Davis in the same lineup if Ces can go if or when the season starts.

butthole25
6 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

Cespedes just got injured again while you were typing that

David Klein
6 years ago
Reply to  butthole25

Still have Dom Smith and yes I know you are joking.

bly
6 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

Maybe Bonilla can still DH for the Mets?

David Klein
6 years ago
Reply to  bly

Tired joke is tired every team has deferrals the Braves are still paying Bruce Sutter.

Da Bear
6 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

How to tell the Chris Davis contract was a bad one: thanks to its deferrals, the Mets no longer have the highest committed payroll for 2035.

SenorGato
6 years ago

Theo Epstein gets a DH again? Theeeeeeoooooooooooo…Maybe now he and his 3 rings will catch Andrew Friedman

Sittch
6 years ago

It’s not the joy of watching pitchers hit to me, but the strategy of when to pinch hit and when to leave your pitcher in, especially in extra inning games.

So I prefer the managing of NL ball for that reason. I don’t dislike the DH, but that’s my preference.

Also, Colorado with a DH😳

MikeSMember since 2020
6 years ago
Reply to  Sittch

The joy in that startegy is offset by the boredom in consistently pitching around the 8 hitter so they can go through the formality of the pitcher making an out.

Connor Grey
6 years ago
Reply to  Sittch

One of my favorite things about baseball is thinking along with the manager. But my favorite team to do that with over the last couple of years has been the Rays, an AL team. The Dodgers and Brewers have been a lot of fun too but not because of the pinch-hitting for pitchers decisions. It has more to do with their roster constructions, platooning, bullpen management, and defensive switches/substitutions. My point is, I don’t think full time DH in the NL is going to make game strategy any less entertaining, it’ll just be a little different.

LenFuegoMember since 2025
6 years ago

So major league baseball is dead. Long live minor league baseball.

MoateMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  LenFuego

So the American League is “minor leagues” to you? What? This is the weirdest take. The DH is implemented in more places than it’s not. It’s the default, the NL is a weird relic. That weird relic isn’t somehow preserving the purity of the sport. It’s just an oddity. Like games starting at XX:05 instead of on the hour.

kds
6 years ago
Reply to  Moate

I think that the 5 minute offset has much more to do with giving broadcasters time for an intro than being an historical oddity from baseball’s antiquity.

MoateMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  kds

Literally no other sport does this, despite having very similar pre-game nonsense (singing, honoring people, announcer intro). It’s a choice baseball makes.

Pwn Shop
6 years ago

Let’s say I have Ohtani, Brandon Woodruff, and Mike Trout on my team. I have Trout as DH batting for the pitcher, Ohtani pitching, and Woodruff is playing right field. Now some point during the game (let’s say mid-inning) i switch Woodruff and Ohtani. Now that my ‘pitcher’ is Woodruff, does Trout bat for him? If so that freely moves Trout around the batting order so that i can bat him two separate times each time through the 9. If not, then i can dance Ohtani and Woodruff around such that Ohtani always gets to bat and Woodruff never does, despite using each as pitchers.

Defenestrater
6 years ago
Reply to  Pwn Shop

No. In this scenario, when you move Woodruff to pitcher, Trout leaves the game and both Woodruff and Ohtani would be in the batting order in fixed positions, with no DH. Players cannot move around the batting order, and the DH is lost when the pitcher moves to another position or someone already in the game moves to pitcher.

gentrym
6 years ago

If the DH really is inevitable, I’d like to see a new rule put in.: The home team chooses whether the game (or series) is played with DH or non-DH rules. Make them designate so 24 hours in advance or something so the opponent can plan. If you have a pitcher that can hit, you get to make their pitcher hit AND force their DH to the field or the bench. It might not get used often, it could make for some interesting scenarios and would put a higher percentage of pitcher at-bats to ones that are competent at the plate so we still get some fun pitcher hitting moments. It also leaves open the possibility that an organization would would put an emphasis on developing pitchers as hitters and over time create a real advantage.

MoateMember since 2022
6 years ago
Reply to  gentrym

This is a stupid idea and literally nobody in the bargaining room would suggest it. Owners don’t want to spend 15 million for a DH just to have the other team force him to sit.

Why not let home teams pick the opposing pitcher they face? Or set the other team’s line up?

bluerum29
6 years ago
Reply to  Moate

Quit paying someone 15 mil just to be a DH. If you have a DH position it should be used to rotate regulars out of the field, but still keep their bat in the game or to get the bench guys rotating in the lineup and not just sitting for days on end.

Dag Gummit
6 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

Equivalent argument:
“Quit paying someone 15 mil just to be a starting/ relief pitcher. If you have a pitcher position, it should be used to rotate regulars out of the rotation, but still keep their arms fresh or to get the pen guys rotating in the rotation and not just sitting for days on end”

While you may have a style preference toward one direction, your preference alone should not dictate managerial and GM decisions. There have been too many (soon-to-be-)Hall of Famers who either spent significant time as “the DH” or have gone/ will go in with “DH” as their listed position.

rosen380
6 years ago
Reply to  gentrym

I’ve always been for something like this…

“Make them designate so 24 hours in advance or something so the opponent can plan.”

I would alter that to having the road team submit two line-up, one with the DH and one without. The home team submits just a single line-up, if it has a DH, then the road team ends up using the w/DH line-up and vice versa.

“It also leaves open the possibility that an organization would would put an emphasis on developing pitchers as hitters and over time create a real advantage.” — I’d argue that if this was going to happen, there is no reason it wouldn’t have happened anyways.

IMO, the reason that pitchers are bad hitters and have been getting worse (relative to position players) is that pitching and hitting do not share a significant amount of particular skills. Over time, as teams got better and better at selecting pitchers for pitching talent, the odds that they will also be decent hitters got worse and worse.

Ryan DCMember since 2016
6 years ago

But without pitchers hitting (or at least taking BP) we wouldn’t have gotten Scherzer pitching that epic game with a black eye.

Phil LeeMember since 2016
6 years ago

As an life long NL fan I’m cool with the DH. Tired of flailing pitchers who can’t even execute a bunt. I don’t like seeing position players pitch.

rhswanzey
6 years ago

I’ll miss double switches and the additional dynamic influencing quick/slow hook and reliever usage. I think it’s harder to manage by non DH rules, and I enjoyed it.

Matthew PattersonMember since 2020
6 years ago

I am sad. I just want to see Max Scherzer hit a few more times. I probably won’t though.

RobinMember since 2016
6 years ago

Here is my take on better DH rules…

Personally, I don’t like watching the majority of pitchers bat. It’s definitely amateur hour most of the time. On the other hand, I like the game strategy of pinch hitting and lineup maneuvers. It makes things more interesting. I think we can have both and even increase the strategy element. These rules are presented without discussing the applicable strategies.

Definitions:

Designated Hitter – Player assigned to bat for a position player or pitcher.
Excused Player – Player that has an assigned Designated Hitter.
Unexcused Player – Player that does not have an assigned Designated Hitter.
General Rule: At the manager’s discretion a player who has not already appeared in the game may be designated to bat for another player (usually the pitcher) without removing that player from the game. The player being assigned a Designated Hitter is called the Excused Player.

Rule 1: At any time, the manager may signal to the umpire that a player will be excused from hitting and will be assigned a Designated Hitter who must be a player on the game roster who has not yet entered the game. The Designated Hitter will bat in the lineup for the Excused Player until the Designated Hitter is replaced or the Excused Player is removed from the game for any reason. Designated Hitter assignments otherwise are identical to pinch-hitting assignments except that the Excused Player may continue to play in the field or pitch.

Rule 2: The Designated Hitter can be replaced at any time by another player who has not already entered the game. That new player becomes the Designated Hitter. The Excused Player remains in the game.

Rule 3: If the Excused Player leaves the game for any reason, the Designated Hitter takes the Excused Player’s spot in the lineup and becomes an Unexcused Player. A pitching change during the defensive half of an inning would require the manager to double switch to keep the existing Designated Hitter in the game and that now Unexcused Player would have to take a position in the field and the new pitcher would take the spot in the lineup for the removed position player. The manager will be able to assign a Designated Hitter to that pitcher when that pitcher next has to bat.

Rule 4: There may be only one assigned Designated Hitter at a time. If a manager wishes to assign a Designated Hitter to a different player in the lineup, the current Excused Player must be removed from the game first thereby making the current Designated Hitter an Unexcused Player.

Rule 5: Once a Designated Hitter is assigned, the Excused Player may not bat. If the Designated Hitter is unable to bat due to injury or illness and no players can be assigned as the Designated Hitter – an automatic out is declared for the Excused Player’s turn at bat.

patsen29Member since 2018
6 years ago

There have been a lot of terrible arguments on both sides. But the one I keep coming back to is one of choice.

Until now, AL fans, NL fans, and indifferent fans have always the option of watching a game of their choice. But now, while AL and indifferent fans will barely notice a difference, NL fans are losing their game. Possibly forever.

This is why I question if the tradeoff is worth it. A sad day for baseball.

Old Washington Senators FanMember since 2020
6 years ago

Ok, I give. I really despise the DH not because I like to see pitcher’s hit, but I think the extra hitter contributes to longer games (never measured it) and too much cheap scoring. My biggest fear is that baseball will devolve into 4 hour snooze-fests and 14-12 games a la slow pitch softball and, worst of all, the maxing out of 3-true outcomes baseball, which is also boring.

But – there’s lots of things to do to speed up games and make 3-true outcomes less effective and it will allow beloved vets to play longer – imagine Willie Stargell might have had a longer career as a DH.

So, I’ll TRY to like it

Dag Gummit
6 years ago

If baseball ‘devolves’ as you fear it will, how could the use of the DH be pointed to as a — let alone “the” — reason for it when it clearly has yet to do so in the AL in the last 51 years?

paul ehrlich
6 years ago

The hitting performance of the pitchers is only one aspect of it. The strategy involved matters to many of us fans, along with the occasional surprises and the possibility that some teams may figure out a way to exploit this facet of the game better than others. I’d think the DH dumbs down baseball, but it’s never really about what the fans want, nor player safety. As a bargaining chip between players and owners, this is strictly about money.

bluerum29
6 years ago
Reply to  paul ehrlich

True story.

TonyMember since 2017
6 years ago

If I’m an owner I don’t want to sign a pitcher to a lucrative contract and risk him getting hurt hitting or running the bases.

paul ehrlich
6 years ago
Reply to  Tony

Or pitching, or falling down stairs, cutting himself in the pool, riding dirt bikes, the list goes on. Swinging a bat and running 90 feet a couple times a game really shouldn’t be a major injury risk for a well-conditioned top athlete.

bluerum29
6 years ago
Reply to  Tony

They get hurt pitching more often with the way they baby pitchers now a days.

Dag Gummit
6 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

Or — as a much more likely description of the relationship — pitchers get babied nowadays because of how they’ve been getting hurt pitching more often for the last 100+ years.

bluerum29
6 years ago
Reply to  Dag Gummit

Why do you think they are getting hurt more often now?

burrwickMember since 2017
6 years ago

Hallelujah!

Kevbot034
6 years ago

I used to be a DH hater, but the auto out and realizing that there really isn’t any more “strategy” to the NL teams made me start realizing it was time for the DH all around. I am very excited now and think it should be a great addition!

mgwalker
6 years ago

Guess it’s time to move to Nippon…

ccctl
6 years ago
Reply to  mgwalker

Where all but one division play with the DH?

mgwalker
6 years ago
Reply to  ccctl

*Central* Nippon, to be exact.

mgwalker
6 years ago

Here’s another moment that is worth watching 1000 pitcher whiffs: 2015 NL wildcard game: Tony Watson drills Jake Arrieta with HBP in the 7th inning.

Next thing Arrieta does is steal second base standing up.

bluerum29
6 years ago

No desire to watch DH baseball.

mgwalker
6 years ago

It’s heartening to see so many NL fans commenting. Just wanted to add that the hubris of AL fans and DH enthusiasts is as annoying as ever. From the original post: “…the pull of pitchers hitting, and a major facet of the argument against the universal adoption of the DH, is an emotional or sentimental one rather than a rational one. ”

We are talking about the rules of a game, which has no fundamental ethics. How do we determine what is ‘rational’ in that context? What are we trying to optimize? How can we even address those questions without some kind of appeal to aesthetics, emotion or sentiment?

TheGrandslamwichMember since 2020
6 years ago

My initial reaction to this was “Crap, now I won’t get to watch Bartolo Colon swat dingers.” May he sign somewhere and keep throwing the ball anywhere he goes.