Making Tracks on the Road to Cooperstown: Who’s Boosted Their Hall Odds in 2022?

Paul Goldschmidt Nolan Arenado
Jeff Curry-USA TODAY Sports

Even for a player with six previous All-Star selections to his name, Paul Goldschmidt is having a career year. The 34-year-old first baseman finished the first half of the 2022 season leading the National League in all three slash-stat categories (.330/.414/.590) as well as wRC+ (184). He’s deservedly the starting first baseman for the NL squad in Tuesday night’s All-Star Game, and he provides a great point of entry when it comes to the players who have helped their causes toward eventual enshrinement in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

This may not seem like an obvious time to check in on such players, but July is quite the logjam when it comes to the baseball calendar. In addition to the All-Star Game and its high-profile auxiliary events (the Futures Game and the Home Run Derby), we now have the amateur draft and the run-up to the trade deadline, even if the actual date of the latter has slipped to August 2 this year. Right in the middle of this is the Hall of Fame’s Induction Weekend, which kicks off this Friday and culminates in Sunday’s ceremony. It’s a time that I get a lot of questions about active players vying for future elections, and in the interest of providing a one-stop shop, here we are.

Because I would like to keep this shorter than a novella, I’m not going to dwell upon the cases of Albert Pujols and Miguel Cabrera, who have the major milestones that make them likely first-ballot choices, or Mike Trout, who’s already fifth in JAWS among center fielders and 14 points past the standard at the position, or Joey Votto, who’s 12th among first basemen, almost three points past the standard, and finally in the 2,000 hit club. Nor will I ruminate on the far-off possibilities or probabilities of bright young stars with seven or fewer seasons under their belts such as Ronald Acuña Jr., Alex Bregman, Rafael Devers, or Juan Soto. Additionally, I’ll skip breaking out the framing data to explain Yadier Molina’s case as he heads into the final half-season of his career.

I’m punting on pitching for this installment as well. I owe readers a couple more entries in the S-JAWS series I was working on during the lockout, and when I get back to that, I’ll look a bit more closely at Justin Verlander, Clayton Kershaw, Zack Greinke, and Max Scherzer, all of whom have already cleared the standards. At some point I’ll also take a look at the trio of closers — Aroldis Chapman, Kenley Jansen, and Craig Kimbrel — who have each wandered into the weeds at a crucial time.

That still leaves plenty of players to discuss, even if they’re clustered in just five of the eight remaining field positions. For this exercise, I will be referencing Baseball Reference’s version of WAR for season and career totals, my JAWS metric, as well as the ZiPS rest-of-season projections created by Dan Szymborski, since one of the goals here is to give an idea of where these players will stand at the end of the season rather than crunching the numbers as if the season has ended.

First Base

Paul Goldschmidt, 1B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 55.5 42.3 48.9
2022: 4.8 | ROS: 2.0 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 57.5 44.3 50.9
HOF Standard 1B 65.5 42.1 53.8
ROS = Rest-of-Season ZiPS projected WAR.
All other figures use Baseball Reference WAR.

Goldschmidt entered the season just a whisker above the peak standard for first baseman, and thanks to his stellar first half, he’s now produced his seventh-best season by WAR, so any further progress will give him double traction in improving his JAWS — a situation that goes for several of the players here. Goldy has already risen from 25th to 23rd at the position in JAWS, and even the modest addition of his projected 2.0 WAR would nose him past Keith Hernandez (50.8 JAWS) for 20th, 0.1 behind Hall of Famers George Sisler and Hank Greenberg, all while pushing him to 15th in peak.

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Goldschmidt is under contract for two more seasons with the Cardinals, which should give him time to reach 2,000 hits before he’s a free agent again (he has 1,684). After finishing second in the NL MVP voting in both 2013 and ’15, he has a real shot at taking home the award, though it’s worth noting that aside from Freddie Freeman and José Abreu in the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, no full-time first baseman has won the award since Votto in 2010.

Freddie Freeman, 1B
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 46.8 33.8 40.3
2022: 2.8 | ROS: 2.7 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 49.5 36.5 43.0
HOF Standard 1B 65.5 42.1 53.8

The 32-year-old Freeman’s season has been overshadowed by the very public drama surrounding his move from the Braves to the Dodgers. The saga hasn’t spilled over into his performance, however, as he’s hitting .321/.397/.530 for a 159 wRC+, second in the NL behind Goldschmidt.

Freeman is a couple lengths behind Goldschmidt in JAWS, but he does have an MVP award and a championship ring, both of which his St. Louis counterpart lacks. What’s more, he’s one of just two players who is at least halfway to 3,000 hits and has at least a 10% chance of reaching the milestone according to ZiPS; as of last September 23, Dan’s calculations put him at 28%, and he’s added another 125 in short order since then, which probably helps his odds a bit. Meanwhile, if he reaches his rest-of-season WAR projection, he’ll surpass his career high of 6.3 WAR, set in 2016. He’s currently 37th among first basemen in JAWS and has significant work to do over the next few years to give himself a shot at Cooperstown, but seasons like this can certainly help him make up ground.

Second Base

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 44.2 38.4 41.3
2022: 2.8 | ROS: 2.0 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 46.2 39.4 42.8
HOF Standard 2B 69.7 44.5 57.1

As of last September, Altuve had a 34% chance of reaching 3,000 hits, but with just 77 banked thus far via a .275 batting average and a 12-game trip to the injured list, that percentage has probably fallen by a few points. That said, the 32-year-old Astro is hitting for a still-robust .275/.368/.518 (155 wRC+) line and just made his eighth All-Star team. He’s just one win away from matching his seventh-best season in WAR (3.8), and with his rest-of-season projection, he would reach 24th in the second base rankings, just below Hall of Famer Nellie Fox (49.5/37.2/43.3). He’s got a long way to go to reach the standard, but with contemporaries Robinson Canó (seventh in JAWS but a two-time PED offender), Ian Kinsler, and Dustin Pedroia all waylaid en route to Cooperstown, his case will stand out, even amid the cloud of the Astros’ scandal.

Third Base

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 49.2 41.6 45.4
2022: 5.0 | ROS: 2.4 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 51.6 44.0 47.8
HOF Standard 3B 68.4 43.0 55.7

Arenado is another former NL West star whose transplant appears to have taken. In fact, the 31-year-old slugger leads the NL in both bWAR and fWAR (4.6) and is hitting .293/.359/.526 for a career-best 149 wRC+, putting to rest concerns that he would never be a star-level hitter outside Colorado. And as for defense, after turning in a career-low 6 DRS last year, he’s already at a major league-leading 15 this year and also tops in Statcast RAA (9). He’s got a very good shot at winning a 10th straight Gold Glove; that total would tie him with Mike Schmidt for second among third baseman, behind only Brooks Robinson (16). As for JAWS, he’s climbed from 29th to 23rd already this season and has added 1.4 WAR to his peak score. If he hits his rest-of-season projection, he will blow past the peak standard, up to 13th in that category’s rankings and 20th overall.

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 49.2 39.7 44.5
2022: 4.1 | ROS: 2.4 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 51.6 42.1 46.9
HOF Standard 3B 68.4 43.0 55.7

With Fernando Tatis Jr. sidelined and so many other veterans fizzling, Machado has carried the Padres on his back, and it’s not a coincidence that their offense sputtered while he was laid up by a left ankle sprain. He is currently hitting .303/.377/.513 for a 150 wRC+, which would match his career best, set in 2020. He’s fourth in the NL in bWAR and second in fWAR (4.5), a legitimate MVP candidate for a team that needs every bit of his contributions, including his leadership.

Thanks to his early start in the majors, Machado entered the season ranked fourth among third basemen through his age-28 season (45.2) behind only Hall of Famers Eddie Mathews, Ron Santo, and George Brett, and he’s just 1.2 WAR away from guaranteeing that he’ll maintain that ranking through his age-29 season (he turned 30 on July 6). Even with this year’s 4.1 WAR already representing one of his seven best seasons, he’s still got low-hanging fruit within that peak score, with seasons with WARs of 3.6 (2018) and 3.8 (’17) that he should be able to surpass in the next few years to boost his standing.

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 38.2 35.4 36.8
2022: 3.8 | ROS: 2.9 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 41.1 38.3 39.7
HOF Standard 3B 68.4 43.0 55.7

Ramírez is in the midst of another stellar season, batting .288/.368/.576 for a 161 wRC+; the Guardians’ 29-year-old star is fifth in the AL in slugging and wRC+, fourth in bWAR, and third in fWAR (4.3). He’s two months younger than Machado but almost eight points of JAWS behind him, albeit in about 1,500 fewer plate appearances. That said, he owns a 3–2 edge on Machado in seasons worth at least 6.5 WAR and looks to maintain that advantage via the pair’s rest-of-season projections, as well as a 3–1 edge over Machado in top-three finishes in MVP voting. With WARs of 2.5 (2020) and 3.1 (’19) among his best seven seasons, he’s got ample room to boost his peak score before he’s too far into his 30s. Stay tuned.

Before we leave the hot corner, I should probably note the fading chances of a pair of 36-year-olds, Evan Longoria and Josh Donaldson. Longoria has produced just 0.2 WAR, inching his line to 57.7/41.9/49.8 (18th in JAWS), but he’s played in just 46 games due to injuries and is considering retirement after this season. His JAWS, accompanied by 1,852 hits and 325 homers, probably won’t be enough to get him to Cooperstown. Donaldson has played 72 games and produced 2.0 WAR, lifting him to 46.4/41.7/44.1 (27th in JAWS); with another 1.3 WAR this year — exactly his rest-of-season projection — he would start adding to his peak score. However, Donaldson has just 1,237 hits, and so 2,000 appears to be a reach. More damagingly, there’s the late-May incident in which he called Tim Anderson “Jackie” in a manner that was widely perceived as racist. His explanation for his actions didn’t wash, he drew a one-game suspension from the league, and his former teammates notably backed away from offering public support. None of that will be forgotten when he reaches the ballot.

Shortstop

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 36.4 34.7 35.5
2022: 2.3 | ROS: 2.1 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 38.5 36.8 37.6
HOF Standard SS 67.7 43.2 55.4
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 34.0 32.7 33.3
2022: 2.8 | ROS: 2.4 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 36.4 35.1 35.7
HOF Standard SS 67.7 43.2 55.4
Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 32.6 30.0 31.3
2022: 3.5 | ROS: 2.3 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 34.9 32.3 33.6
HOF Standard SS 67.7 43.2 55.4

Age isn’t everything when it comes to making progress towards Cooperstown, but it’s pretty important, and it’s worth keeping in mind as we track the progress of some of the game’s young shortstops who really aren’t so young anymore. Bogaerts, now 29 years old, is hitting .316/.389/.453 in his 10th major league season and ranks third in bWAR among shortstops behind Tommy Edman (4.5) and Dansby Swanson (3.8). He’s garnering considerable attention because he can opt out after this season, but in terms of JAWS, he still projects to remain about two points behind 28-year-old Lindor and four points behind 27-year-old Correa, each of whom is only in his eighth major league season.

All three have already surpassed the peak scores of Rabbit Maranville, the lowest-ranked Hall of Fame shortstop (43.9/30.5/37.2), not to mention scandal-ridden current candidate Omar Vizquel (45.6/26.8/36.2). Each member of the trio also has at least a couple seasons lower than 4.0 WAR in his own peak score, increasing the likelihood of gaining traction before reaching 30, but they’re all still a long ways off from where Arenado, Machado, and even Ramírez are. And for as great as 29-year-old Trea Turner looks this year (138 wRC+, 3.2 bWAR, 3.8 fWAR), he’s another beat or two behind these guys with a 28.0/27.7/27.9 line, with 28-year-old Corey Seager (3.0 bWAR this year, 24.3/23.7/24.0 career) even further away.

Right Field

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 52.9 47.7 50.3
2022: 2.9 | ROS: 2.8 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 55.7 49.8 52.8
HOF Standard RF 71.1 42.4 56.7

It’s been an up-and-down season for Betts, who has bookended a stretch where he was red hot — 16 homers with a .714 SLG in 183 PA from April 22 to June 4 — with two very frosty ones on either side, the second of which included a cracked rib. Overall, his batting line (.265/.340/.523) scans as unremarkable but is still good for a 143 wRC+, eighth in the NL, and he’s added above-average defense (4 DRS) as well.

It’s thanks in part to that glove that the 29-year-old Betts has already surpassed the peak standard for right fielders, and he’s just 0.8 WAR away from surpassing his seventh-best season and pushing that score (already ninth at the position) even higher. Already this year he’s surpassed the JAWS of Gary Sheffield (49.3, 24th at the position) and matched that of Hall of Famer Vladimir Guerrero Sr. (21st). If he matches his rest-of-season projection, he will climb over Bobby Abreu, Hall of Famer Dave Winfield, Sammy Sosa, Reggie Smith, future Hall of Famer Ichiro Suzuki, and Dwight Evans (52.3) — all while still in his age-29 season. Throw in his MVP award, five Gold Gloves, and two championship rings, and this is a guy who will likely wind up on the Cooperstown dais someday.

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 30.7 30.7 30.7
2022: 4.4 | ROS: 3.0 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 33.7 33.7 33.7
HOF Standard RF 71.1 42.4 56.7

I said I wouldn’t dwell upon anybody with seven or fewer seasons, but Judge, who leads the AL in bWAR and the majors in fWAR (4.7), is worth making an exception for while he’s in the midst of a monster season. He’s already 30 years old, and between his late start (he was a 25-year-old rookie) and his difficulty staying on the field (he’s played more than 112 games in a season just twice), he’ll have to remain exceptionally productive for at least the next half-decade to reach Cooperstown. Still, we’re talking about a player who has averaged 7.0 WAR per 650 PA thus far and who has raised his ceiling considerably over the past three months.

When I wrote about Judge spurning the Yankees’ $230.5 million extension offer just before the season opened, Dan supplied me with an eight-year ZiPS projection that included 5.1 WAR this year and 16.6 for 2023–27. When he ran another set of projections for his June 1 piece, Judge had already banked 2.8 WAR in less than two months, projected to add another 3.0 WAR this year, and had raised his 2023–27 projection to 21.5 WAR. Just comparing those two trajectories though his age-35 season, his pre-season projection would have put him at 48.1/39.6/43.9 at that point, which would rank 29th ahead of nine Veterans and Era Committee honorees but 13.8 points shy of the JAWS standard. His June 1 projection would boost that line to 53.7/41.1/47.4, which would rank 26th, just below Enos Slaughter (57.8/37.4/47.6) but with a good chance to move into Sheffield/Guerrero territory if he remained at least modestly productive during the back half of his 30s. Given that he’s added two wins in the short time since that latter projection, he’s probably gained even more ground.

Long story short, a Hall of Fame berth for Judge isn’t out of the question, but he can’t afford to miss a quarter or a third of a season, or to suddenly turn into a 3–4 WAR per year player if he’s to get there.

Category Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Current 45.4 35.1 40.3
2022: 1.4 | ROS: 1.3 Career WAR Peak WAR JAWS
Projected End 2022 46.7 35.1 40.9
HOF Standard RF 71.1 42.4 56.7

Stanton has bashed 24 homers, some of them very clutch and/or spectacular, for the Yankees’ current juggernaut, pushing his career total to 371, but while DHing nearly 50% of the time, he’s not accruing much value. If the 32-year-old slugger meets the rest-of-season projection, he would overtake 2022 inductee Tony Oliva (43./38.6/40.8) for 34th. Stanton has seasons of 3.1 and 3.7 WAR within his peak score, but the more time he spends at DH, the slower the going will be; even to match Sheffield’s JAWS will require another 18 WAR, for a total of 63.4.

That said, if Stanton reaches 500 homers (he had a 26% chance via ZiPS last year), a plaque figures to be in play for the two-time home run champion and former MVP. Everybody who has reached 500 without being implicated as a PED user is in the Hall, and David Ortiz, who reportedly failed the 2003 survey test (which commissioner Rob Manfred later disavowed) is breaking new ground with this week’s induction. Ortiz (55.3 WAR), Harmon Killebrew (60.5), and Willie McCovey (64.5) own the lowest WARs of any honorees in the 500 Club, and the better outcomes for Stanton probably put him in that range.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

124 Comments
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Left of Centerfield
4 years ago

Great stuff as always Jay! Seems like Bryce Harper deserves a mention as well. Even if he doesn’t come back this season (though he insists that he will), his 2.6 bWAR is his 7th best. So that has helped his 7-year peak WAR + his overall WAR. He’s basically neck and neck with Stanton among rightfielders and has a good chance of bypassing him soon.

Last edited 4 years ago by Left of Centerfield
tung_twista
4 years ago

Harper’s HoF odds are already high enough that his so-far-good performance doesn’t boost it that much especially with the additional injury risk.
A mediocre(?) wrc+ 130 as a healthy outfielder
might be preferrable for Harper’s future HoF odds
than a wrc+ 170 as a DH where he is missing games
even though the latter would be a better season.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

As long as Harper finishes his contract as a mostly everyday player he should have good to amazing counting stats and already has two MVPs. I don’t even think a lot of time at DH will hurt him as he’s not that good in the field and it might help him avoid the IL, especially as he ages.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that Harper deserved a full write-up, particularly since his injury makes it unclear how much he will play the rest of the season, But he has improved his chances based on what he did this season, so a sentence or two seems appropriate.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

People forget how young Harper is. He’s probably got another decade in him. It won’t be as good as his first decade but he’s got a lot of time.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

His contract has 9 more years after this one, so yeah, he’s going to keep playing for a while.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

If he plays the next four years at a 4 win level (on average), and then 5 years at about a 3 win level (on average) he’ll end with something like 75 fWAR. That’s not just ahead of Dwight Evans and Tony Gwynn, that’s ahead of Reggie Jackson. And it is really easy to imagine him doing that, or even better.

If you take active players who are definitely not Hall of Famers already, Bryce Harper might be the most likely player of them to get it.If you take active players who are definitely not Hall of Famers already, Bryce Harper might be the most likely player of them to get it. And on his Hall induction day people will still be asking if he lived up to expectations.

Look It Up
4 years ago

Jay, you’ve often mentioned the ‘2000 Hit Club’, and while it’s true that (until recently) no one from the expansion era with fewer than 2000 hits had been elected to the Hall, is it really the lack of 2000 hits that kept, say, Tony Oliva from getting voted in sooner?

It seems to me the 2000 hits thing is more of a correlation with a career perceived to be of insufficient heft than a cause of non-election per se. Oliva peaked at 47% of the vote, it’s hard for me to imagine there was another 28% of the electorate who were all like, “Yeah, I’d have voted for him, but he didn’t get 2000 hits.”

68FCMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Look It Up

I think it’s more that it is unusual for a player with less than 2,000 hits to even make it to a second ballot. Enough voters use it as an initial sort that it is effectively a rule. In the last decade, only Andruw Jones and Mark McGwire have even managed 5% of the vote with under 2,000 hits. Jim Edmonds was one and done despite being 15th in CF JAWS. Would an extra 51 hits have gotten him elected, probably not, would it have gotten him more than 2.5% of the vote, almost certainly.

There probably isn’t 28% of the electorate that would have voted for Oliva if he had 83 more hits, but it certainly feels like there is somewhere in the ballpark of 30% of the electorate that won’t even consider a player with under 2,000 hits.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  68FC

I think Judge is going to be an interesting case if he remains relatively healthy for the next 5 or so years. He probably has 0 chance of reaching 2,000 hits but he’s likely to put up a ton of WAR.

Curacao LL
4 years ago

Additionally, I’ll skip breaking out the framing data to explain Yadier Molina’s case as he heads into the final half-season of his career.

I doubt the voters will find things as clear cut.

Niels-Henning Orsted Joc Pederson
4 years ago
Reply to  Curacao LL

I don’t know whether framing data will need to be mentioned at all when Molina’s vote takes place. It’s useful info but may be wholly unnecessary in Molina’s case.

The standard known as Hall Of Fame Monitor (a Bill James creation, I think) has been an exceptionally reliable predictor for whether a backstop will eventually gain enshrinement. Every eligible catcher with a career HOF Monitor score of 120 or better is in the Hall. The highest to *not* be in are Jason Kendall and Lance Parrish at 108 and 107, respectively.

For further context, some career HOF totals are Carlton Fisk and Gabby Hartnett 121, Ted Simmons 125, Ernie Lombardi 133, Gary Carter 135, and Mickey Cochrane 137.

Molina is currently at 169.

citizenryan
4 years ago

A 25 year-old Jason Heyward laughs at our to-early HOF predictions.

tung_twista
4 years ago
Reply to  citizenryan

Just to be clear, very few people were mentioning Hall of Fame and Jason Heyward in the same sentence even back in 2015.

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

The first time I’ve ever heard Heyward and HOF mentioned was in @citizenryan’s comment above.

68FCMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

He would have been in that Acuna, Bregman, Devers, Soto group of name checks that are too young to really consider yet.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago

I suppose I should start with “thank you” as I was at least one of the people that asked for this. I wasn’t too surprised by who Jay included and didn’t include, though I tend to think Betts is in barring something very unfortunate befalling him.

Also, for pitchers there really is such a dead zone now. The guy that needs something, anything, and needs to start getting it more than 1/3 of a year at a time, is deGrom. Other than that, Burnes could get into Cy Young contention if Sandy falters or gets hurt and despite being a big baby Cole has definitely helped himself this year. Kenley and Kimbrel both have decent save counts this year and have been some shade of good, too, so they both just appear to need to hold on long enough to have the save totals that have meant induction lately as it seems they should get the “dominance” checkmark already.

Last edited 4 years ago by TKDC
Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Wainwright will be an interesting case. He’s finishing his career strong and may still come back for next year or longer, but those years of injury and/or ineffectiveness (2011, 2015-18) really hurt his chances.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Definitely the best case for an older guy outside of the big 4. But I don’t see how he could differentiate from Buehrle, Hudson and Pettitte, who have basically no traction. And unlike Cole, Sale, etc., the presence of those other four guys will provide contrast and nobody will be looking to induct him just so we don’t go forever without inducting a starting pitcher.

NobleHelium
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

CC will be on the ballot soon and will get in quickly if not immediately.

Or I guess you meant the upcoming dead zone in like fifteen years?

Last edited 4 years ago by NobleHelium
TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  NobleHelium

Yes, more like 10 years, probably, after the last of the big 4 is inducted (though conceivably it could be closer to 15 years if one of them pulls a Bartolo).

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

I think Betts probably will end up in Cooperstown because he’ll hit forever but I am a wee bit skeptical of his current bWAR numbers. DRS tends to aggressively penalize bad defenders and overly reward good ones.

mariodegenzgz
4 years ago

“I’m punting on pitching as well”

Might as well, because after the Verlander / Kershaw / Scherzer / Greinke wave, there are maybe only like two or three pitchers worthy of Hall of Fame discussion. One of them is Gerrit Cole, who’s almost 32 and still has a long way to go. DeGrom is 34, far away still and has significant injury risk considering that he insists on sitting 99+ for no reason. The other guy with the ability is Sandy Alcántara, who’s still far too early in his career to begin those talks even tho he’s a HOF talent. Aside from them? Really grim stuff on the pitcher side, and I don’t see how it gets better.

nelliseMember since 2022
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

If Sale can ever pitch full seasons again, he might have a chance. He’s still only 33 and is a good amount ahead of Cole in WAR.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  nellise

Chris Sale is a good reminder why it’s so hard to project these things out for pitchers. Dominant and durable until he isn’t.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I don’t think his temperament will earn him any benefit of the doubt from on-the-fence voters, either (not saying that it should or should not factor in, but Sale being a rather unlikeable a-hole seems more in line with someone like Kevin Brown, who put up fantastic numbers in a hitter’s era then was quickly dispatched from the HOF ballot).

Last edited 4 years ago by Jason B
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Wasn’t Kevin Brown in the Mitchell report or something too?

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  nellise

I think a both healthy and productive season for Sale is tough to imagine at this point

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Agree, and that’s a little sad – he was SO dominant there for a few years that he’s easy to overlook. Top 6 in Cy Young voting for seven straight years although he didn’t win any (one 2nd, one 3rd, two 4ths, two 5ths, and one 6th-place finish).

runningfrog
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

The list of pitchers with “less than 190 wins but a chance to get to 200” is pretty much just Gerrit Cole. The guys in the 190+ club will get there but I suspect Cole might be the last pitcher to ever get there. It’s gonna be tough for HOF voters to wrap their heads around 150 wins being “good enough for the Hall of Fame”.

mariodegenzgz
4 years ago
Reply to  runningfrog

It’s really crazy. The active leader in wins for under 30 pitchers is Aaron Nola, who a) is 29, and b) only has 73 wins. The next guy is 28-year-old José Berríos with 67 wins. Grim might fall short as an adjective.

Last edited 4 years ago by mariodegenzgz
Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

It’s not surprising given how early starters get pulled compared to the past. The fewer innings the starter pitches in the game, the more chances there are for the bullpen to cough up the lead even if your team still wins the game in the end. It also increases the chances that the starter fails to pitch 5 innings and can’t even qualify for the win.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  runningfrog

Wainwright may not get to 200 despite being at 190 now. It probably depends on whether or not he retires at the end of this season.

jaysfan39Member
4 years ago
Reply to  runningfrog

I went and looked at the list of active leaders in wins to see if there was anyone who I thought could get to 200 by the end of their career and it really does look like after the couple older guys who are close we will not see a 200 game winner anytime soon. Out of the top 100 active players in career wins only 8 have averaged even 10 wins per season, the top 6 guys on the list Verlander, Greinke, Scherzer, Kershaw, Wainwright & Price plus Gerrit Cole who is 9th with 126 wins in 10 seasons & Lance Lynn who is 11th with 116 wins in 11 seasons but is 35 so definitely not going to 84 wins to his total. Cole has a chance but he is 31 and has thrown a lot of innings the last few years so him staying healthy enough to get there seems highly unlikely.

If starting pitchers can’t even average 10 wins a season with the new pitching environment it seems like 200 wins is going to be the new 300 wins where you might see 1 or 2 guys a generation get there.

Travis LMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

If there are no HoF caliber pitchers in the game at any point in time, over a few years, I think that speaks about how the shall needs to adjust its standards.

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

Yes.

mariodegenzgz
4 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

I think it speaks more to how much the position of pitcher has fallen off in importance than anything else. Individuals on the mound have never mattered less, so it makes sense that there are virtually no more worthy of the Hall.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

Based on free agent contracts, actual baseball teams disagree with you on this.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

That is so obviously not true, and every metric on this website will tell you the same

mariodegenzgz
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

What metric? fWAR? The same metric that says Corbin Burnes’ 2021 was clearly better than Verlander’s 2011 or Halladay’s 2003, among others? That metric?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

This is why I think it’s a bit early to know what will happen. I suspect a guy like Aaron Nola might have a better chance than we realize.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  Travis L

Um, Harold Baines is in the HoF. How much lower should the standards be?

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Baines at least had a much better career than Lloyd Waner.

However, yes, you shouldn’t lower the standards just because the occasional sub-optimal candidate manages to get in.

Last edited 4 years ago by Lanidrac
tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

There’s also Madison Bumgarner. I don’t think he’s a HOF’er (though 3 years ago I could see a path) but he’s more viable than Chris Sale at similar ages.

After that… the only other person with >100 wins at <35 years old is Strasburg, and he ain’t gonna be anywhere near close.

fanofthemanMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Bumgarner kinda seems like he could be an era committee guy on the strength of his playoff runs, even if the topline numbers are deeply underwhelming. But predicting the era committee votes this far out is an exercise in foolishness

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
4 years ago

I’d add Chris Sale as someone who’s improved his odds just by coming back from injury and looking good. I wasn’t sure if the Pitcher Punting was to limit scope or because there are none worth discussing

JustinPBGMember since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  Jay Jaffe

Also, Sale… came back and looked good? But he’s gone again

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

He gave up the finger

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Didn’t he pitch like 4 innings before getting hurt again? I know it was a random injury, but he’s still likely done for most of the year

Cave Dameron
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I think the big takeaway from Sale coming back is that his arm seems to be fine. The finger surgery may cost him this season, but it’s not a career killer like elbow or shoulder surgeries are more likely to be.

Seeing Sale back throwing just as hard as he used to is a great sign for the next few years, despite immediately getting another freak injury.

JustinPBGMember since 2018
4 years ago

I can see Judge ending up a big argument about peak vs longevity. If he adds another 3 (conservative!), that’s 5 seasons and 34 war. Could he add another 25 in 4 more big seasons or 3 big ones and a few small ones? That’s basically how he’d have to get in.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

And I think he will fail. He has zero MVP so far and he just seems likely to have low career achievement and the peak is worse due to injury and late start. His chances honestly are so very slim. Let’s not forget he is a massive human being and those guys have a below average record on aging.

jaysfan39Member
4 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

I wouldn’t bet on him staying healthy just based off of his size and history but if he can stay healthy and play into his late 30s early 40s he could be an interesting case, currently he is at 7.5 BWAR per 162 games and slightly lower in FWAR. That amount of WAR per 162 games is very good but of course it doesn’t include his decline years so will most likely only be going down but he is at such a high # right now that if he doesn’t completely fall off a cliff I think his per 162 game stats could go a long way in arguing for the HOF. It is tough to say with a guy who got his career starter so late, it is very difficult to make the hall when your first full season is at the age of 25.

Pepper Martin
4 years ago
Reply to  jaysfan39

Judge is a special case because of his injury history, but that last part isn’t really true. Here are a bunch of Hall of Famers who had their first full season age 25 or later (and this is skipping out on Negro League players or marginal Hall of Famers like Jack Chesbro):

Eddie Plank
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbell
Three Finger Brown
BIlly Terry
Dazzy Vance
Sam Rice
Kiki Cuyler
Stan Coveleski
Jesse Haines
Earle Combs
Warren Spahn
Hoyt Wilhelm
Randy Johnson
Trevor Hoffman
Mariano Rivera
Edgar Martinez
Tony Oliva

Granted, this list is mostly pitchers, but there are a bunch of position players on there as well, and enough different career paths to be comfortable in saying that there are a lot of different ways to make it to the Hall of Fame despite a late career start.

jaysfan39Member
4 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

If anything I would say this list proves my point only 6 of these players debuted after 1950. Wilhelm was a knuckleballer who pitched till he was 50, Johnson was one of the most unique pitchers in MLB history and won over 60 games after turning 40, Hoffman and Rivera are the most famous of the new breed of closers from the last 30 years, Martinez was one of the best and first full time DH’s and Oliva needed a veterans commitee and 45 years to get in the HOF.

Pepper Martin
4 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

Judge is a special case because there aren’t a lot of other players who’ve lost significant time to injuries but still dominated even in seasons when they were injured. The closest parallels I can think of are King Kong Keller and Edgar Martinez, two players straddling either side of the “was their career long enough to make the Hall of Fame?” argument. His career could easily go either way, and we’ll just have to wait and see.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  JustinPBG

I’d be way more partial to seeing Judge get in than a compiler. I’ve seen plenty of guys play well for 12 years, I don’t know if I’ll ever see an Aaron Judge again

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

This is my take too. We put too little emphasis on peak and too much on how players perform in their mid 30s.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
4 years ago

Awhile back someone here suggested Goldy would end up in the HoF and I was incredulous. But his season is among the most surprising and impressive to me (even if I don’t think he’ll keep it up)

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
4 years ago

I’d be incredulous also. But I’d probably support his candidacy.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago

Most players who “look like hall of famers” need a pretty good 30s to make it. We always want to make these declarations, but aside from guys like Trout, Kershaw, and maybe Betts, most guys need something good from their decline years to be ensured induction.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Although, there are exceptions like Griffey, Pujols, and Rolen (assuming he eventually gets in).

PhilMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Rolen still put up 20+ fWAR from his age 30 season onwards – without that, I think he’d have no shot of the HoF from the BWAA – and possibly would have even fallen off the ballot in his first year.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Phil

That still pales in comparison to what most Hall of Famers do in their 30s. Perhaps the only Hall of Famers who put up less WAR in their 30s (and 40s) were Sandy Koufax and Dizzy Dean, and former Negro Leaguers that got a late MLB start like Saitchel Paige.

Last edited 4 years ago by Lanidrac
PhilMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Perhaps we just have different concepts of “pretty good” – Rolen’s problem in his 30’s was staying on the field, he was a very good player when he was on the field.

Here are the WARs and WAR/650PA for some players for their age 30 and over seasons.

Scott Rolen 22.3 fWAR, 4.3 fWAR/650PA
Albert Pujols 16.1 fWAR, 1.5 fWAR/650PA
Ken Griffey Jr 9.1 fWAR, 1.3 fWAR/650PA
Andruw Jones 6 fWAR, 1.9 fWAR/650PA
Duke Snider 12.8 fWAR, 3.0 fWAR/650PA
Vladimir Guerrero 14.9 fWAR, 2.3 fWAR/650PA
Robin Yount 21.6 fWAR, 2.8 fWAR/650PA

Out of HoF hitters, Scott Rolen’s fWAR in age 30 season and over wouldn’t be in the bottom 60. So, yes, the majority of HoF position players accrued more total fWAR – but Rolen is pretty close to the median (which is 26.8). And on a rate basis, he was very good – not MVP level, but consistent All-Star level.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Yeah, Griffey and Pujols were the Trout and Betts of their time (if Trout and Betts have terrible second decades). Rolen is categorically not the same. Not close.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Yes, which is why Griffey and eventually Pujols are guys who get in on the first ballot despite declining early, while it’s taken Rolen a few years on the ballot to get the necessary support.

All three of them still had lousy decline phases compared to what they did in the first half of their careers but will still get into the Hall of Fame despite that.

Last edited 4 years ago by Lanidrac
PhilMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

(I know I’ve replied to you about, but I’ve spend half an hour looking at these tables, so I’m going to say it)

I think calling Rolen’s decline phase lousy is really really harsh.

Rolen, age 29 and younger: 6.0 fWAR/650PA
Rolen, age 30 and over: 4.3 fWAR/650PA

Derek Jeter, age 29 and younger: 4.3 fWAR/650PA
Derek Jeter, age 30 and over: 3.3 fWAR/650PA

On a rate basis, Rolen’s decline phase (I have arbitrarily called this seasons age 30 and over) was within 0.1 fWAR/650PA of Derek Jeter’s prime.

Now Jeter, and lots of other HoF players were very durable, and that is a skill/talent/ability – and Rolen struggled with this in his 30s. But when he was healthy, he was absolutely a player you’d want on your team.

One last one, Adrian Beltre:

Beltre, age 29 and younger: 4.0 fWAR/650PA
Beltre, age 30 and over: 5.1 fWAR/650PA

Just imagine how good he’d be right now if he hadn’t retired young, aged 39.

tomerafan
4 years ago

I’m a bit surprised to not see Jose Abreu on here. I believe he is a HOF’er right now based on his lifetime body of work, but getting to 250 homers and 1,500 hits in the US on top of his prior accomplishments makes for a very interesting argument (halfway to 500/3000 despite debuting at age 27). He’s currently around 240 homers and 1350 hits at age 35.

Production through his age-40 season is unlikely but possible for a 1B… and he’s been better at ages 33-35 than he was at ages 30-32. It would be really interesting to see what ZIPS projects for his future, but I believe his performance this year only helps his case.

PC1970Member since 2024
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

The thing with Abreu is how much credit do you give him for his time in Cuba? & how close does he get to some real milestones?

If he ends up near 350-400 HR, 1200 RBI, gets close to 2,000 hits in MLB, I think you can make a pretty compelling argument that the 4-5 “Cuba” years could get him over the top on a Veteran’s Committee. I don’t think he’ll do enough for the more analytically inclined writers (his WAR is only at 30, so even 4-5 more 2.5-3 WAR years only gets him to 40), but, a VC with ex-players could put him in.

Last edited 4 years ago by PC1970
tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I think some folks forget just how good Jose Abreu was in the Serie Nacional. His stat lines from age 20 to age 25 are stat-porn, and he was the 1st or 2nd best hitter in Cuba for the duration of that run depending on whose opinion you seek. No, you can’t translate the plate success directly to MLB numbers, but you can look at his performance relative to other hitters in Cuba for that time-frame to see how dominant he was for his league.

Then he missed a full year (what would have been his age 26 season) and still put up a .317 / .383 / .581 triple slash even with the rust on him as an MLB rookie.

WAR continues to be very problematic in evaluating 1B. The defensive penalty makes sense when trying to compare the “value” of players across positions and eras. It doesn’t make as much sense when evaluating HOF candidacy, IMHO.

Either way, 300 US homers and 500 professional homers are within reach with three more seasons of performance (no small feat) and 2500 pro hits seems a lock if he’s healthy for the next 18 months. And while, again, I understand that Cuban stats don’t translate correctly, there are far less PA per season in Cuba (350-400 PA/season, max) which weights back some of the “inflation” of the counting stats against competition.

That’s a Hall of Famer to me.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Imagine what Eric Longenhagen’s chats would look like today if there was a 23-year-old non-US player getting posted who slashed .453 / .597 / .986 (yes, that’s .986 SLG, not .986 OPS). His team finished in first place in the regular season, and the 2nd best batter was a 19-year-old Yasiel Puig with a 1.011 OPS…. behind, again, Abreu’s 1.583 (!!) OPS. Abreu missed almost 30% of the season with a shoulder injury…. and still set the league single-season home run record.

Over a four-year stretch, he put up something around a 1.400 OPS and no one else was over 1.200. Again, inflation in the stats compared to the US, and I wish we had an OPS+ or something like that for the Serie Nacional to show just how outsized his performance was. But the simple leaderboards over that period show just how dominant he was compared to the rest of the league.

I wonder how many folks realize just how much better than his league he was. I think some people see him as a good-not-great mid-30’s 1B… despite an MVP award and multiple Silver Slugger awards in MLB… and don’t realize the totality of his career.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Honestly, numbers like that make question the validity of them. An MLB player wouldn’t even come close to those numbers if he played the lowest levels of the minors

68FCMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Obviously it is a very high offense league, but Abreu had a 1.583 OPS in 2010 while the next highest was 1.292. For some rough context a 24 year old Yoenis Cespedes had a 1.091 OPS, a 26 year old Yuli Guerriel had a 1.035 OPS and a 19 year old Yasiel Puig had a 1.011 OPS. The raw numbers are super inflated, but Abreu was so far ahead of the rest of the league which included several players who would be stars in MLB.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  68FC

Puig was better than Abreu at a similar age in Cuba:

17 year old:

Puig: .797
Abreu: .679

!9 year old:
Puig: 1.011
Abreu: .830

Puig only played those two seasons in Cuba so we don’t have a lot of data. But based on what we do have, seems to me like he was better than Abreu.

tomerafan
4 years ago

History is full of guys who were better hitters at the same age for a year or two. But they weren’t the same age at the same time. Abreu was the best hitter in the league during his time (or 2nd best if you’re a Despaigne fan) for a solid 5-year period before defecting to the US.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  68FC

Bingo.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

The way to see their validity is to compare his performance to the rest of the league. And to view his performance in international play.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

This is the right way to look at it. If we give him say the equivalent of 16 WAR/8WAA for Cuba it gets him to 47 WAR/21 WAA. That’s not enough for me. He’d have to have been something like a 5 WAR player for 5 years to be in consideration so 25 WAR/15 WAA. Then we’d have to give him extra credit for international play as we would for postseason play. Not impossible but he seems a worse candidate than Gurriel.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Fair take. However, Gurriel is a tough comp because he came to the US at age 32/33 so we didn’t get to see him face MLB pitching in his prime.

And for me, I just don’t think WAR is the only way to look at HOF worthiness. I’m a guy who thinks Gary Sheffield belongs no matter how bad his defense grades out because he was such a threat with the bat. I’m not comping Abreu to Shef, but saying that determining relative value between players is not, to me, the same as determining HOF worthiness. It’s an input but not an exclusive data point. (I’m not a big hall guy, but I think Keith Hernandez belongs in for being a good bat but the best defensive 1B of the last 50 years and, perhaps, ever.)

I do feel like there’s a lot of anchoring bias in this thread. Abreu’s a guy to look at in the context of “who has helped their HOF case.” Some folks on this thread are acting as though I suggested Casey Kotchman (a solid/great, potential “team hall of gf fame” guy) instead of Jose Abreu. I’ll admit that surprises me.

300 MLB HR – if he gets there (sitting on 239) – despite starting at age 27 and missing a whole year in his defection makes it, to me, a case worth looking at given the totality of his work. (I also like the fact that he’s the rare 1B/DH that made himself into a better defender in his 30’s in order to stay on the field.)

But the point of the article was ‘guys who improved their chances.’ Jose Abreu continuing to produce at age 35 seems to fit that bill, for me, and warrants inclusion. I’m glad that posting a comment about it at least spurred some interesting discussion about him.

(And no, I’m not a White Sox homer… I’m a Mets fan.)

MRDXolMember since 2021
4 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Abreu is an interesting case for what he’s done this year— on pace for his 3rd best season, after his rookie year and pandemic-shortened MVP year. He’s done this by slashing his K rate by a third and increasing his walk rate by half, going from a historically pretty aggressive hitter to a well-disciplined one at age 35. He should’ve been an All-Star this year, too, since he’s leading the AL 1Bs (and DHs) in WAR. I don’t know that there are really many precedents for older hitters hanging on by improving their plate discipline skills like this so dramatically, but it’s a highly sustainable change. I think he’s got a serious shot if he can continue being a productive hitter for 3-4 more years.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Jose Abreu? I don’t think he’s even an afterthought. Only one 5 win season and on a rate basis is 44th among 1B in wRC+

MRDXolMember since 2021
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

He’s not terribly far off from from likely Hall of Famers Todd Helton (132 wRC+) or Freddie Freeman (139 wRC+). Freeman’s actually only got two 5+ fWAR seasons, although both he and Abreu are on pace to have one this year. The 1B adjustment means reaching 5 WAR for a 1B requires a crazy offensive season.

Both of Freeman’s 5+ WAR seasons to date came before his age-27 season, and obv Abreu spent all his pre-age-27 seasons in Cuba plus his lost age 26 season. I think Freeman is better, but he’s also a slam dunk Hall of Famer to me, so I don’t think it’s crazy for Abreu to be a borderline case.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

Oooh…. Helton’s a great mention. Because Abreu stacks up well against Helton even if you put a hefty discount on the Serie Nacional performance. Helton has better defense (he was really good early in his career) and the batting average. Helton’s peak-5 was way better. But he was basically a replacement-level hitter after his age 33 season.

Helton was at about 48 WAR at age 33, and then had a rough decline phase. Discount the WAR for Coors Field however you may like (though given road negatives, I know some folks don’t.)

Abreu is at 27 WAR in MLB… let’s be conservative and give him 4WAR/year for 5 seasons that he was in Cuba… I think it would be higher but can’t imagine it’s lower…. that puts Abreu at 47 model-WAR at age 35, and we haven’t seen the decline start yet.

Hopefully this shows that Abreu isn’t such an inconceivable thought.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I specifically said “based on his lifetime body of work.” You know, like the seven seasons he played in the 3rd best baseball league in the world under a communist dictatorial regime that wouldn’t let him leave the country to play in America.

I don’t think that all great international ballplayers belong in the HOF. But to say Abreu isn’t even an afterthought implies a disdain for non-US baseball or an ignorance as to how good his career his been.

Go check the bRef pages not only for his Cuban stats before for the Serie Nacional league stats when he was there. Dude was one of the best hitters in the world during that timeframe. And then had a nice run in the US starting at age 27.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Since 2000, Ichiro is 3rd in age 27+ WAR behind only Bonds and Arod. Abreu is 66th, behind Melvin Mora and Luis Gonzalez.

In wRC+ for players 27-35 during that same time frame he ranks 35th (min. 2500 PAs).

His career since he came to the states does not look like a guy that would have made the Hall had he played here the whole time. To me, only in a case like that can you loosen standards a bit.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

3rd best league in the world??? According to whom? Between Korea, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, and the two Mexican leagues, Cuba may not even be in the top 5. And if you consider things like AAA, AA, etc as their own separate leagues, then Cuba gets pushed down even further.

Last edited 4 years ago by Left of Centerfield
tomerafan
4 years ago

I’m talking at the time, and no I didn’t include US minor leagues. Serie Nacional at the turn of the last decade was the 3rd best league in the world between MLB and Japan. And their players consistently showed it in international tournaments. Sadly this was partially because of how hard it was to defect from Cuba at that point. I’m not saying that Cuba produced more baseball talent than the Dominican, but the Serie Nacional was a better pro league 12 years ago because of the forced labor status on the players.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it but you’re presenting it as a fact. International competitions say very little about how good a league as a whole was. Many countries, for various reasons, don’t send their best players to these competitions, And an international competition can’t tell you anything about the depth of a league. The Serie Nacional certainly had some outstanding players during Abreu’s time. At the same time, it’s clear that the depth was basically non-existent.

tomerafan
4 years ago

You are correct; it is my opinion that, at that time, the Serie Nacional was the 3rd best professional league in the world. This is not a verifiable fact, and therefore I never intended to present it as such.

We’re just going to have to disagree. (I do agree with you that international competition tells you zero about depth of a league which is a very good point, and that the best players don’t necessarily play in international competition.) However, it is not an opinion but was backed by contemperaneous reporting that Abreu was considered the best or 2nd best hitter in Cuba for a 5+ year-period. It is also a verifiable fact that he has 239 MLB homers and that 300 isn’t out of the question. 2,000 hits is a longshot but 1800 hits isn’t. All after age 27, and after bring what he was in a different league. I fail to see how that merits such disdain and dismissal.

Your mileage may, and apparently does, vary, and that’s what makes life grand.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

I don’t mean to be snarky, I just simply don’t care all that much about what he did in Cuba. I also don’t know where you’re getting the 3rd best league in the world from. That’s obviously the KBO and the Mexican league has a bench of ex-MLBers as well. It’s not a “disdain” for the league, it’s just the reality that the quality is probably the equivalent of upper level NCAA ball here. (he was able to hold his own in that league as a 16 year old, the best HS sophomore in the country would get demolished if he faced SEC pitching).

But my argument is centered around what Abreu has done in the MLB. He has been an above-average, very good player, but outside of his rookie year he hasn’t had a single season that I would consider HOF worthy, and if 4 of his 8 seasons have been worth less than 3 wins. This isn’t a guy that came stateside and dominated, it’s a guy that’s come here and been very good. I can’t assume he would have been significantly better had he come here at 22 instead of 27

Last edited 4 years ago by Dmjn53
sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

IMO he is a bit of an iffy case. He put up 5 wins in his first season in MLB. Presumably he would have done that a few other times before age 27 but you have to extend that performance back something like 6 years to get yourself in the area where we even start debating his merits. And that’s kind of dicey in itself.

This isn’t really like Ichiro who was a borderline Hall of Famer already based on his accomplishments in the US and his performance in the best non-MLB league puts him way, way over. Where we have a ton of confidence in modeling how his performance in Japan would look in the US context.

Last edited 4 years ago by sadtrombone
tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Agree it’s not as clear as Ichiro. Not even close.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

It’s just…IDK. There are so many assumptions you have to make about Abreu’s Cuban career that it seems like at least one of them will fail. And if even one of them does, he’s already in Mark Teixeira territory.

I expect that until there are enough players crossing over from Cuba to the US and we have a better idea of how to model that performance that this will continue to be a sticking point for him. There’s not really any evidence that Cuba’s baseball league is better than the Mexican League. For all we know, it could be obviously behind the KBO.

MRDXolMember since 2021
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think a separator between Teixeria and Abreu could be longevity.

Teixeria age 27 thru 35 wRC+: 131. Teixeria wRC+ for age 33-35 seasons: 118.

Abreu career (age 27-35) wRC+: 133. Abreu wRC+ for age 33-35 seasons: 140.

If Teixeria had delayed his decline after age 32 for, say, 3 mostly healthy peak-ish years, he probably ends up with 55-60 WAR, 2300 hits, and just about 500 homers. Which is a reasonably strong HoF case, I think. Obviously Abreu can’t go back and play his pre-age-27 seasons in MLB, but spending his mid-thirties still raking helps a lot.

OddBall Herrera
4 years ago

Really? The Jackie thing won’t be forgotten?

Donaldson is not a Hall of Famer, but I personally had already forgotten the Jackie thing. I get mentioning the cheating scandal with Altuve but will this one really be in the public consciousness still in five+ years?

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago

Including JD at all was weird. There are definitely other guys that are more intriguing. Not just Harper, who has already been mentioned, but Yelich and McCutchen for example both have clearly better possible paths to Cooperstown. JD has no chance, with or without loose lips.

And, yes, let’s not pretend that JD is John Rocker, Jr. with this.

marchandman34Member since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

Maybe Donaldson has no chance, but I think we are them selling him short. He’s had a borderline HOF career with his strong peak, that he’s added further this year’s inches him closer and he intrigues me. Clutch might be similar in value, but he’s been replacement level this year and hasn’t moved the needle. Yelich could merit a mention, but I think he’s now fallen off the pace and his season isn’t helping him much.

MRDXolMember since 2021
4 years ago

It’s not something that is necessarily lingering in the public mind every time they see Donaldson’s name— besides, say, for Chicago fans— but it will certainly be brought up when Donaldson is Hall-eligible and people are looking back on his career. He has a deserved reputation for mixing it up, which isn’t strictly a bad thing, but the incident with Anderson puts that in a much worse light.

Jason BMember since 2017
4 years ago
Reply to  MRDXol

I don’t know that it will get brought up much – his stats will leave him well short of enshrinement, no need to even get into personality factors as a deciding factor.

Dmjn53
4 years ago

Came to make the same comment. It wasn’t a major story to begin with and lasted like 36 hours in the news cycle.

Donaldson is rather obviously not a HOF, but that story has already been forgotten

68FCMember since 2020
4 years ago

I suspect that when Donaldson makes the ballot and the career retrospectives are written it will be one of the examples listed in the section about how poorly Donaldson was perceived as a teammate within the game. The notable aspect is mostly that essentially no one within baseball came to his defense and many took the opportunity to voice their distaste for Donaldson.

avega1988
4 years ago

You’re forgetting who the author is here. Of course he had to sneak that in somehow.

PC1970Member since 2024
4 years ago

I’m always surprised that Altuve’s WAR isn’t higher. Just seems like he’s been a bigger star for longer than some of the other guys. Taking away from the trash can scandal, he has the “fame” thing going for him.

I’m sure it’s partly due to his defensive #’s aren’t great & then he was mostly a high BA/hit guy, which tend to get overrated. & he’s been the face of a dynastic type team. & I think his size works in his favor. Something unique to separate him from others. He’s the “short little guy on Houston”.

TKDCMember since 2016🏆 MVP
4 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I feel like this is where he will definitely be hurt by the scandal. Even if he is totally forgiven, I doubt he will regain the boost from ancillary factors, so he’ll need to be clearly deserving based on numbers.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

He’s also been a bad baserunner despite the speed and high SB totals. Ichiro, for example, was worth 96 baserunning runs despite his abbreviated US career. Altuve is at 4, and that’s more likely to get worse than better. That’s 9 wins right there.

Last edited 4 years ago by cowdisciple
PhilMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  cowdisciple

I might be misremembering, but I read a few years ago that Altuve is hyper aggressive trying to stretch singles into doubles. If it works, it goes to his Slg% and increases his hitting value. If it fails, he still gets a single, but it lowers his base running value. I don’t know how true it is, but that is one possible reason – and maybe he becomes more conservative as he ages when trying to take the extra base.

cowdiscipleMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Interesting. That makes sense conceptually, but I’d have no idea how to quantify the effect.

Left of Centerfield
4 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Baseball Reference shows that he’s been thrown out on the bases 98 times in his career, including an incredible 19 times in 2015. (and he’s already at 10 this year).

Here’s how that breakdown by base:

1st 14
2nd: 35
3rd: 21
Home: 28

BTW, these numbers don’t include pickoffs or caught stealings. They’re things like out attempting an extra base, doubled off on a line drive, or attemping to advance on a passed ball.

To put those numbers a bit in context, I’ll compare Altuve to Jose Ramirez, who’s known as an aggressive base runner.

Ramirez has 40 outs on the bases in his career or 5.5/600 PAs. Altuve is at 8.8 per 600 PAs, a rate that’s 60% higher than Ramirez.

Last edited 4 years ago by Left of Centerfield
Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

I mean he has multiple 5 win seasons

Last edited 4 years ago by Dmjn53
Dmjn53
4 years ago

Altuve’s a weird case in that he’s playing better but might be hurting his chances. He’s running a career high walk rate and is sacrificing a bit of average for power, and his having arguably his 2nd best season (after 2017). Yet these improvements are actually hurting his chances at 3000 hits.

Setting aside the fact that 3000 hits shouldn’t matter for a HOF case, it still does

bluerum29
4 years ago

Nice to read about some of the names in consideration and to know they are either moving in the right or wrong direction towards the hall. On the other hand, skipping over all of the information about WAR because I don’t give a rats about it, significantly limits the information in the article.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

Voters care, especially as the electorate gets younger. Therefore it would be a useless exercise to not include such a crucial factor

FrancoeursteinMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  bluerum29

Do you know what website you’re on?

bluerum29
4 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Yes actually I do. There is a lot of good information on this site as well as plenty of data to analyze. WAR is one number, not the be all end all. There is plenty of other quality information here.

chisoxmatt
4 years ago

The only players I see making the HOF in this list is Jose Ramirez and Jose Altuve and maybe Betts.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  chisoxmatt

I’d say Betts is getting really close. He’s already borderline with JAWS and his peak score is well above the threshold. Plus he has a bit of the cool factor that can help boost a candidate

jaysfan39Member
4 years ago
Reply to  chisoxmatt

I think Goldschmidt is practically a lock at this point as long as he doesn’t completely fall off a cliff, right now he is one of the favorites to win the MVP but if he doesn’t he probably finishes at a minimum in the top 5 which would give him 6 top 10 finishes in the MVP vote in 11 full seasons to go along with his 4 gold gloves and 4 silver sluggers he has already won. Another thing that I think will help him is how he has been consistently great he will look short in the HRs category but right now he only has 2 seasons with WRC+ below 130, with 4 seasons of over 150 plus he is a 1B who has two 20-20 seasons and has stolen 145 bases while only being caught 33 times. When you add up his consistency, peak seasons & adding value in ways a lot of first basemen don’t I think he will have no problem getting in the hall one day.

PMember since 2020
4 years ago

Just checking – are the career WAR columns for Arenado and Machado really exactly the same?

68FCMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  P

Yep they are. Machado and Arenado have had almost perfectly parallel careers. It always surprises me how well they compare to each other.