We’ll See You in Cooperstown, Buster Posey

There was no farewell tour, no long goodbye, and no fairytale ending. Instead, out of the blue on the day that would have been Game 7 of the World Series had Tuesday’s outcome gone the other way, was a stark, almost shocking tweet from The Athletic’s Andrew Baggarly:

Wait, what? Posey just finished a season in which he earned All-Star honors for the seventh time, having come back from opting out of the 2020 season out of consideration for his family and two solid but injury-marked seasons, one of which ended with surgery to repair a torn labrum in his right hip. At the age of 34, while adhering to a strict two-days-on, one-day-off load management plan designed to keep him available and productive, he hit .304/.390/.499 with 18 homers (his highest total since 2015), a 140 wRC+ (his highest mark since 2014), and 4.9 WAR, tops among all catchers and tied for eighth among all NL players. He did that while helping the Giants to a major league-high and franchise-record 107 wins, then continued to torment the division rival Dodgers with a two-run homer off Walker Buehler in the two teams’ first-ever postseason game — nearly the first splash hit by any right-handed batter at Oracle Park, save for a water tower in right field — and then three hits the following night.

At the tail end of a nine-year, $169 million contract that he signed in March 2013, Posey had a $22 million club option with a $3 million buyout — hardly a cheap proposition, but a no-brainer for a big-spending team dealing with a franchise icon and a new window of contention. A multi-year extension seemed even more likely, particularly with the possibility of the universal designated hitter on the horizon. President of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi had already signaled his intent to retain Posey one way or another, saying after the team’s elimination, “He is in our estimation the best catcher in baseball this year. Obviously [we] want to have conversations with Buster and continue to have internal conversations about that, but having him on this team next year is a high priority.”

Posey chose to walk away from all that in order to be with his family, which now features two adopted twin daughters who were born prematurely last summer and spent time in the newborn intensive care unit. He also chose to forgo the daily grind of a job via which he’s been concussed at least twice, in 2017 and ’19, and probably more than that given the number of foul tips off his mask that have left him dazed; he was in concussion protocol for one such shot in late July. Then there are the collisions, the most serious of which fractured his left fibula, tore three ligaments in his left ankle, and required three screws to pin the bone in place while it healed, plus a separate surgery to remove the hardware. That one cost him most of the 2011 season, the follow-up to his NL Rookie of the Year-winning campaign, and resulted in the addition of a rule to eliminate unwarranted contact at the plate.

This is Koufaxian stuff, a player retiring despite still performing at an elite level. The parallel between Posey and Sandy Koufax isn’t perfect, though both played just 12 years in the majors, accumulated numerous individual honors and reached the pinnacle of their respective positions in helping their teams win three championships, then departed abruptly. So far as we know, Posey isn’t playing through anything as debilitating as the three-time Cy Young winner’s chronic arthritis, but the long-term effects of multiple concussions are nothing to trifle with, and Posey, already a father of two before the adoption, has two new reasons to want to make sure he enjoys his retirement years.

As to where Posey’s retirement leaves him with regards to the Hall of Fame, to these eyes, he’s checked every box except sticking around long enough to satisfy every last random crank on social media or sports talk radio. He’s a career .302/.372/.460 (126 wRC+) hitter, a seven-time All-Star, Gold Glove winner (it was tough to break through against Yadier Molina), MVP (2012), batting champion (also 2012, making him one of just five catchers to win, if we’re counting back to Deacon White in the National Association in 1875), Rookie of the Year (2010), league WAR leader (2012, via both fWAR and bWAR), and pitch-framing king who shepherded the staffs of three World Series winners in a five-year span. The Giants’ three championships on his watch, by the way, are more than any other team in this millennium beside the Red Sox. The only player common to even three of those Boston championship teams was a guy who sat on the bench for half the game (David Ortiz). Posey, on the other hand, was behind the plate for 36 of the team’s 38 postseason games in that run; two innings off at the wrong end of a blowout in the 2014 World Series was his only break besides a pair of Game 4 starts in the 2012 NLDS and NLCS by Hector Sanchez.

By retiring at age 34, Posey is flouting the Rule of 2,000, the daunting reality that no player whose career took place in the post-1960 expansion era with fewer than 2,000 hits has been elected to the Hall of Fame, either by the BBWAA or by the various small committees. Many of the best candidates outside the Hall, from Dick Allen and Bobby Grich to Andruw Jones and Chase Utley, are on the wrong side of that number, and so was Minnie Miñoso until the recent reclassification of the Negro Leagues as major leagues. I’ve tracked the progress of players like Joe Mauer and Joey Votto as they’ve reached the mark, and I fully expected to do the same with Posey, whom I noted on September 1 was still 527 hits shy of the mark. He’s now exactly 500 short, finishing with 1,500 hits.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

Do you know how many players have caught at least 1,000 games, accumulated at least 1,500 hits and finished with a career OPS+ of 120 or higher? Nine, seven of them with plaques in Cooperstown:

Players with at Least 1,000 Games Caught, 1,500 Hits, and 120 OPS+
Player Years Age Games C PA H OPS+ bWAR
Johnny Bench+ 1967-1983 19-35 1742 8674 2048 126 75.1
Yogi Berra+ 1946-1965 21-40 1699 8364 2150 125 59.6
Mike Piazza+ 1992-2007 23-38 1630 7745 2127 143 59.5
Bill Dickey+ 1928-1946 21-39 1708 7065 1969 127 56.5
Gabby Hartnett+ 1922-1941 21-40 1793 7300 1912 126 55.9
Mickey Cochrane+ 1925-1937 22-34 1451 6211 1652 129 49.9
Buster Posey 2009-2021 22-34 1093 5607 1500 129 44.9
Jorge Posada 1995-2011 24-40 1574 7150 1664 121 42.7
Ernie Lombardi+ 1931-1947 23-39 1544 6353 1792 126 37.9
SOURCE: Baseball-Reference
+ = Hall of Famer

Granted, this is sort of a junk-drawer collection defined by the fact that the player in question is the low man in two of those categories, but Posey ranks among the best hitters of the group. Sure, you can argue that rate stat would have dropped as he aged, but what all of this comes down to is a single question: How badly do you want to see a player regress? I mean that in both senses of the phrase. Sticking around for another year or two of above-average play followed by a few below-average ones shouldn’t be that meaningful when it comes to evaluating his career, and he doesn’t need another concussion or another surgery to meet some keyboard commando’s high standards of toughness.

Via Dan Szymborski, here’s a ZiPS projection for Posey’s next five seasons:

ZiPS Projection – Buster Posey
Year Age AVG OBP SLG AB H HR OPS+ Def WAR
2022 35 .271 .347 .403 380 103 10 104 3 2.7
2023 36 .266 .337 .384 346 92 8 96 1 1.9
2024 37 .260 .326 .361 319 83 6 87 0 1.2
2025 38 .254 .315 .349 284 72 5 81 -2 0.6
2026 39 .252 .308 .326 230 58 3 73 -3 0.1

That’s another 408 hits and 6.5 WAR for those of you scoring at home, padding his totals while producing more mediocre seasons than truly good ones. Yes, with his healthy hip, Posey might have outdone that projection and reached 2,000 hits, but we’re talking about window dressing.

That table above, with seven Hall of Famers plus Posada and Posey, does the latter a disservice. Thanks to our ever-evolving understanding of the game, we now know about pitch framing, and we know that Posey has been among the best at this even at the tail end of his career; his 14.9 framing runs in 2019 and ’21 is tied for seventh in the majors despite his taking all of last year off. He’s fifth in our version of the metric since his debut in 2009 (128.2 runs), and second in that of Baseball Prospectus (151 runs).

As I’ve noted with respect to Molina, who many believe to be a surefire Hall of Famer, our appreciation of what makes him so owes plenty to the ability to quantify that, and as with relievers, this is a case where off-the-shelf JAWS won’t do. By patching together FanGraphs’ 2008–21 framing numbers with Baseball Prospectus’ pre-PITCHf/x version going back to 1988 (the start of the pitch count era), I’ve created a FanGraphs WAR-based version of JAWS for catchers for the era’s relevant backstops. Updating my table yet again:

FanGraphs Framing-Inclusive JAWS for Catchers
Player Career WAR FG Fram BP Fram WAR Adj fWAR fPeak fJAWS
Mike Piazza 1992-2007 63.7 n/a 87.2 8.4 72.1 52.5 62.3
Ivan Rodriguez 1991-2011 69.2 2.9 -14.1 -1.5 67.7 40.0 53.9
Buster Posey 2009-2019 57.6 128.8 0.0 0.0 57.6 47.7 52.7
Joe Mauer 2004-2018 52.5 27.6 38.3 3.8 56.3 42.4 49.3
Russell Martin 2006-2019 55.2 165.7 33.7 3.3 58.5 39.8 49.1
Yadier Molina 2004-2020 55.6 145.4 30.0 2.9 58.5 39.5 49.0
Brian McCann 2005-2019 54.5 165.6 -11.3 -1.1 53.4 39.9 46.7
Jorge Posada 1995-2011 40.4 -43.9 -69.5 -6.7 33.7 29.5 31.6
FG Fram = FanGraphs framing runs for 2008-21, now included in WAR. BP Fram = framing runs from 1988-2007 via Baseball Prospectus. WAR Adj = BP framing runs converted to FanGraphs WAR.

Remember where I noted Posey’s 4.9 WAR this year? That was his sixth-best season, thus adding nearly a full win to his fPeak score; he gained a full 3.0 fJAWS. Molina, the only other active player on the list, gained just 0.5 through his continued activity in what he’s announced is his penultimate season.

As far as Hall of Famers go, the only two for whom we have framing stats for their whole careers — thanks to the magic of Max Marchi’s retroframing methodology — are Rodriguez and Piazza. The former, considered by many to be the best defensive catcher ever, had a cannon for an arm but was not much of a framer; the latter, perpetually derided for perceived defensive shortcomings centered mainly around his meager 23% caught stealing rate, was an excellent framer. Where Rodriguez ranks third among catchers in off-the-shelf JAWS at 54.3 and Piazza fifth, three points lower, the impact of framing data is enough to swing the gap between the two of them by about 11 points in the latter’s favor. Posey, with a career that’s only about 55% as long as Rodriguez, is just 1.2 points below him by this methodology thanks to his superiority as a hitter and as a framer. He’s also substantially ahead of Mauer, whom many people (this scribe included) believe to be Hall-worthy given how highly he ranks in non-framing JAWS (seventh, and fifth in seven-year peak). If Posey is in their ballpark, he belongs in the Hall.

Alas, we don’t have framing data for every enshrined catcher to give us a fuller picture. In an attempt to square the framing-exclusive and framing-inclusive methodologies, I’ve created a 50–50 blend using the two versions of JAWS, giving some credit to those who excel in this area and trying to avoid unduly penalizing the players for whom we lack such data. Here’s the latest leaderboard:

Weighted Framing-Inclusive JAWS for Catchers
Rk bRk Player Career Peak JAWS fWAR fPeak fJAWS wJAWS
1 1 Johnny Bench+ 75.1 47.2 61.2 61.2
2 2 Gary Carter+ 70.1 48.4 59.3 59.3
3 5 Mike Piazza+ 59.5 43.1 51.3 72.1 52.5 62.3 56.8
4 3 Ivan Rodriguez+ 68.7 39.8 54.3 67.7 40.0 53.9 54.1
5 4 Carlton Fisk+ 68.4 37.5 53.0 53.0
6 6 Yogi Berra+ 59.6 38.1 48.8 48.8
7 7 Joe Mauer 55.2 39.0 47.1 56.3 42.4 49.3 48.2
8 14 Buster Posey 44.9 36.6 40.7 57.6 47.7 52.7 46.7
9 8 Bill Dickey+ 56.5 35.5 46.0 46.0
Avg HOFC 53.8 34.8 44.3 44.3
10 9 Gabby Hartnett+ 55.9 30.8 43.4 43.4
11 10 Mickey Cochrane+ 49.9 36.6 43.3 43.3
12 11 Ted Simmons+ 50.3 34.8 42.6 42.6
13 22 Yadier Molina 42.1 28.7 35.4 58.5 39.5 49.0 42.2
14 12 Thurman Munson 46.1 37.0 41.5 41.5
15 27 Russell Martin 38.8 27.3 33.0 58.5 39.8 49.1 41.1
16 13 Gene Tenace 46.8 35.0 40.9 40.9
17 15 Buck Ewing+ 48.0 30.7 39.4 39.4
18 16 Bill Freehan 44.8 33.7 39.2 39.2
19 17 Roy Campanella+ 41.8 35.0 38.4 38.4
20 18 Wally Schang 47.9 27.8 37.8 37.8
21 33 Brian McCann 32.0 24.6 28.3 53.4 39.9 46.7 37.5
22 20 Roger Bresnahan+ 42.0 30.4 36.2 36.2
23 23 Darrell Porter 40.8 29.1 34.9 34.9
24 19 Jorge Posada 42.7 32.6 37.7 33.7 29.5 31.6 34.7
25 24 Jim Sundberg 40.5 28.7 34.6 34.6
30 29 Ernie Lombardi+ 37.9 24.1 31.0 31.0
32 31 Ray Schalk+ 33.2 25.8 29.5 29.5
43 44 Rick Ferrell+ 30.8 20.9 25.9 25.9
SOURCE: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml
+ = Hall of Famer. bRk = Baseball-Reference JAWS ranking. Note discontinuity below No. 25 (Hall of Famers only).

Even giving half-credit to Posey for framing is enough to elevate him into the top 10 and above the Hall standard. He was there before this year, but thanks to his great season, he passed Dickey, too.

It’s not just Posey’s value relative to all other catchers that we should be discussing here. Check the top of the WAR leaderboard for 2012–17, Posey’s strongest stretch:

Highest Position Player WAR 2012–17
Rk Player PA WAR
1 Mike Trout 3930 54.3
2 Buster Posey 3615 43.0
3 Josh Donaldson 3564 35.6
4 Andrew McCutchen 4005 33.5
5 Robinson Canó 4080 31.0
6 Joey Votto 3552 30.7
7 Paul Goldschmidt 3841 30.4
8 Miguel Cabrera 3753 30.3
9 Adrian Beltre 3606 29.8
10 Giancarlo Stanton 3123 27.7

With the inclusion of his value as a pitch framer, Posey was over a win per year more valuable than every player besides Trout during that stretch. Without it, if we use bWAR, he’s seventh overall for that same period; if we trim to 2012–16, he’s sixth, and first among all NL players at 28.8, ahead of Goldschmidt (27.7) and Votto (26.3).

Again, I’ll maintain that it’s the framing-inclusive stuff by which we should take his true measure, and even if we extend his window to to cover the entirety of his career, including his cup of coffee in 2009 (-0.2 WAR), his injury-marred ’11 (1.8 WAR in 45 games), the decline in ’18–19 and the ’20 opt-out…

Highest Position Player WAR, 2009-21
Rk Player PA WAR WAR/650 PA
1 Mike Trout 5660 77.8 8.9
2 Buster Posey 5607 57.6 6.7
3 Joey Votto 7450 56.7 4.9
4 Robinson Cano 7084 51.3 4.7
5 Andrew McCutchen 7588 50.8 4.4
6 Yadier Molina 6370 48.4 4.9
7 Miguel Cabrera 7237 48.1 4.3
8 Evan Longoria 7163 47.9 4.3
9 Paul Goldschmidt 6300 46.3 4.8
10 Adrian Beltré 5730 45.0 5.1

…Posey edges Votto despite the latter having over 1,800 more plate appearances — about three seasons’ worth. It’s only thanks to Votto’s earlier start (debut 2007, official rookie season in ’08) that the latter has a higher career WAR (60.2), and we’re now talking about him as a full-fledged Hall of Famer.

To these eyes, even with a short career, Posey is a clear Hall of Famer, a player I’ll have no hesitation checking the box for when my 2027 ballot arrives in the mail. That he retired early while still capable of playing at an All-Star level isn’t something I can hold against him, as he doesn’t owe me — or you, or anyone — two or three or five more seasons while increasing the risk of long-term damage to his noggin. He’s the kid in the class who came into the final exam, scribbled furiously but methodically while keeping his composure, and left the building 30 minutes early, knowing full well he had aced the test, while everybody else scratched their heads and prayed for a gentleman’s B. You might resent him in that moment, but at some point you’ll be clapping for his valedictory speech.

Posey will deliver that valedictory from a Cooperstown dais, and that isn’t mere wish-casting on my part, but a near-certainty. Of the 19 enshrined catchers (including Negro Leaguers Josh Gibson, Biz Mackey, and Louis Santop), the writers have elected just 10, but only three since Fisk in 2000: Carter (2003), Piazza (2016) and Rodriguez (2017), and the first two of those took a ridiculously long time (six years and four years, respectively) because a good chunk of the electorate was living in the Dark Ages. With an increased appreciation borne both by the advanced statistics and by the stark reality of the field’s attrition (even given the advances of sports medicine, the position is an incredible physical and mental grind), Posey’s not going to have that problem. Outside of St. Louis, there’s a pretty good chance that he’s your favorite writer’s favorite catcher.

I will miss the hell out of watching Posey play, and just as much, I’ll miss watching the way he carried himself as one of those face-of-the-game types, a superstar who represents baseball in all of the best ways. With the exception of opposing pitchers, I don’t think many of us were ready to stop watching him, but if he’s decided to leave on his own terms, we can’t help but applaud.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

149 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Sliver57Member since 2015
4 years ago

Ray Ratto wasn’t the only person waiting for this column (https://defector.com/buster-poseys-exit-is-his-acme/). Thanks, Jay!

shaq_diesel
4 years ago

I always thought he’d go the Biggio route, and move to 3rd or 2nd to keep his bat in the lineup more than 100 times per year. I actually believed when Panda left, they’d announce Posey would be moving to 3d base. I wish we could have seen what someone this talented could do if he wasn’t getting beat to hell and suffering catching related injuries almost every year.

If you believe that every generation is better than the previous generation, as I do, that makes Buster Posey the greatest catcher of all time. There is no one better, which means there was no one better. Godspeed Gerald.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

I am really surprised that he decided he’d rather hang it up than move to a corner infield spot, like Mauer. Maybe he just really only wanted to play catcher and when the concussion stuff got to be too much he decided he’d rather just not play at all. Or maybe the team didn’t want to play him at first base, he had enough of the concussions, but he also decided he’d rather not move.

Goms
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Or DH

shaq_diesel
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He was All-ACC shortstop as a freshman. 2nd base defense has never been less valuable. Buster could have played 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. I’m hoping the Giants offered one of those options to him.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

To be fair, that was a long time ago…he’s about 10th percentile in sprint speed these days.

MoateMember since 2022
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Dude is a millionaire several times over, has most of the team and individual hardware anyone could ask for, and is being discussed for the Hall of Fame.

At a certain point, is it worth risking your body for a few dollars more?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Moate

I don’t know. Is playing first base still “risking your body?” It is, to a certain extent, but not like catching (or playing almost any other team sport). And these guys have spent an enormous amount of time becoming this good and love competition, I would imagine there would be a loss of identity stepping away.

But maybe not.

joelbarlow
4 years ago
Reply to  Moate

$10 million after taxes is life changing money on its own. This isn’t a meathead ddrrrr go play take, it’s just a lot of money and he’ll never earn than much in a year again. Life is long

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  joelbarlow

As one of the original investors in Bodyarmour, which was just sold to Coke for $5.6B this week, Posey almost assuredly scored several hundred million, perhaps even a half a billion dollars this week. We know Kobe Bryant invested $6M in 2014 and his estate will get $400M. Posey invested a year early, with rumors he may have invested as much or more money. He probably just made three times his career earnings in one sweep of the pen. If this is true, $20M is now chump change for him. Is that why he retired? The timing seems too hard to ignore. Posey isn’t just rich, he’s fabulously wealthy.

channelclemente
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

He certainly answered the question, how much money is enough? That 4.0 in Finance served him well.

Billsaints
4 years ago

Let’s not forget the grind that is a baseball season. Days away from the family, working till late at night. I’m sure it’ll start to lose its charm after a while.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

No, Molina is a superior contemporary.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

See I just don’t get this. I love Molina and he should be in the HOF, but certain people put him on this ridiculously high pedestal. There is no argument for Molina being better than Posey, it’s not close

Pepper Martin
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

I’m skeptical of Fangraphs’ pitch framing stats. I think they overstate the value of good pitch framing. So I’ll go with career bWAR for this list.

Joe Mauer: 55.2
Buster Posey: 44.9
Jorge Posada: 42.7
Yadier Molina: 42.1
Russell Martin: 38.8

And some non-catchers:

Andrew McCutchen: 45.9
Brett Gardner: 44.3

Posey is a great player but the conversation around him has gotten a bit hyperbolic.

WerthlessMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

Ben Zobrist, Chase Utley, Andrew Jones, Joe Mauer… Those are Posey’s peers.

shaq_diesel
4 years ago

One of my favorite Posey moments was when Hunter Strickland drilled Bryce Harper on purpose, and Harper charged the mound. Most catchers would have sprinted and tackled, to “protect their pitchers”. Not Posey. Only came out of his crouch so he could see it a little better. You drill someone with 100 in the ribs intentionally, don’t expect your teammates to save you. Glad Posey agreed with that unwritten rule.

I need to have this photo framed. comment image

Barney Coolio
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

I just checked out the video on youtube. Posey’s inaction is glaring. Also, the SF dugout clears and Madison Bumgarner stay put. Also glaring.

Another notable moment is Buster Posey chewing out third base coach Phil Nevin for not sending a runner on a Posey hit. I am not sure if Nevin’s stop sign was indefensible. I wonder how many third base coaches would give one second to an upset player, and how many players can get away with that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkA4nBwE3pE

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

Apparently, that incident involved the Giants attempting to drag Strickland off the field and an accidental collision that concussed Michael Morse and basically ended his career. And Strickland was throwing at Harper (which is basically never excusable, IMO) for Harper hitting homers off of his team three years prior. What a nutjob. I’d leave him to fend for himself, too.

williemaysfield
4 years ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

When bum hit Puig posey was right on it and got between them right away. Which tells me hunter hitting harper was planned and posey was told to let him go.
Hunter did land a nice shot.

dbarnes345
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

Well, from what I have seen, I think Buster understood Hunter Strickland could handle himself, and I think Hunter would of agreed for Buster to stay out of it.

anarchosnailMember since 2024
4 years ago

I maintain the greatest What-If of the past baseball decade is if he didn’t break his leg in 2011. A healthy Posey would’ve made that the best Giants team of the whole dynasty, potentially given them four in five years, and quite possibly extended both his career and given the Giants enough punch to push them into the 2016 and 2021 NLCSes (Bochy not running him into the ground from 2014-2016 would also help). A lot of rose-colored thinking there, but he’s the kind of guy where we’ll just have to tell our kids that he was THAT good in his prime.

And not like I decide anything, but they should count his Game 1 homer as a splash hit. Just to give him one more milestone in a Hall of Fame career.

Yanks123
4 years ago

Tremendous career with several rings. Maybe even overlooked at times since he was never all that flashy. I wonder what his career scouting grades would look like? Maybe something like
Hit: 75
Power: 50
Run: 35
Fielding: 65
Arm: 60
Just a heck of a player.

dbarnes345
4 years ago
Reply to  Yanks123

A stud of studs for sure.

shaq_diesel
4 years ago
Reply to  Yanks123

If the fielding rating was compared to other catchers, that’s probably accurate. If it’s compared to every player that you assign a scouting grade to, then fielding was probably a 75 and maybe an 80. If the scouting grade is compared to every kid who shows up to the tryout, he’s at least a 75. If you can stick at SS, CF, or C in the big leagues, your fielding is already well above average. Writers might have given Rizzo the platinum glove, but no scout did. Even Mike Piazza deserves around a 50 on the fielding scale simply because he wasn’t a 1st baseman.

dukewinslowMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Yanks123

He was a monster prospect out of college. Higher rated than Rutschman even

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

If Rutschman can accomplish anything close to what Posey has done the Orioles will be very, very happy.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I predict he will land somewhere between Matt Wieters and Buster Posey in his career WAR. How’s that for an edgy prediction! (it is not an edgy prediction, although a positive one since Wieters was great in the early years)

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Matt Wieters had the same level of hype that Rurschman is currently getting. Wieters never got close to fulfilling those projections but wasn’t an Alex Jackson complete bust. You gave yourself a very large cushion on which to lie down upon.

Mahoney
4 years ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Wieters as a floor and Posey as a ceiling sounds dead on for Rutschmann.

Now for a truly edgy prediction: Alex Jackson will go on to have a Cliff Johnson type career when all is said and done (a respectable result for a #6 overall pick, even if none of his value came during his team control years)

Dee P. Gordon
4 years ago

Glad he’s retiring while he’s still got his health. This game takes its toll on any player, but catchers have it the worst.

random Colorado guy
4 years ago
Reply to  Dee P. Gordon

This poses a question I’ve been meaning to ask in a chat (really wish FG had an injuries specialist). What fraction of MLB players, maybe excluding 1-shot cup-of-coffee types, suffer injuries so severe as to mess up the rest of their lives to the point that they have trouble functioning? I knew a guy who briefly played pro football and was all but unable to walk twenty years later because of his injuries. One would like to think baseball doesn’t do as much damage to the body, but I don’t know. I concur that catchers probably have it the worst, though.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

Yeah my understanding is that the main thing that messes you up is shots to the head. So probably concussions, which are most common for catchers but not limited to them, and hit-by-pitches that get you in the head (which now that I think of it are probably also mostly concussions).

Dmjn53
4 years ago

A lot of them have serious muscle imbalances because of how often they’re throwing with their dominant arm, but nothing debilitating

kevin durkin
4 years ago

Mantle was in constant pain from his knee injuries later in life

dukewinslowMember since 2020
4 years ago

People like Posey too. It matters. I’m guessing he waits a year and is in his second year on the ballot.

Oh gosh Molina’s gonna be a first ballot hall of famer isn’t he. Ughhh.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

I think the “first ballot” thing is stupid, but it’d be scandalous if Molina got in before Posey when there is zero debate who the better player was

dukewinslowMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Zero is a very small number and cards fans exist

dodgerbleu
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

I think Posey is the better player. I also think catcher defense is enough of a mystery that there is a nonzero chance that a new defensive metric could potentially show Molina (or even someone else) to be the more valuable player 10, 15 years from now.

I’m not debating, zero debate here. Just strongly disagree with any statement that ultimate related to something we are still learning about.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  dodgerbleu

Regardless of how much of a better defender he was, the gap in offense is far too wide to make it close

dodgerbleu
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

We can’t possibly know that..

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

No, the gap in defense is far too wide for the offensive gap to make up for it, although it is overall really close.

That’s only when comparing their prime abilities, anyway. Posey retiring early clearly makes Molina the better overall Hall of Fame candidate.

olethrosMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Speaking as a Cards fan, Posey is the superior player and it’s not particularly close. Hell, I was skeptical of Molina’s Cooperstown worthiness until the “four graphs” article here laid out just how stark the difference between the Cards under Molina and the entire rest of the league was in terms of caught and attempted steals.

dodgerbleu
4 years ago
Reply to  olethros

As a fan I’d agree. But there is a reason someone like Kershaw thinks Barnes is a more valuable C than Smith., even though the offensive difference there is similar to (or greater than) the gap between Posey and Molina. Perhaps game calling does make that big of a difference. Probably not, but a professional thinking that way has got to carry more weight than a fan thinking that way. Being a fan of a franchise doesn’t make us an expert on valuation. I’m just saying we don’t know what we don’t know. And a C does impact the game 100, 125, 150 touches a game. Unless the dugout is calling every pitch, we cannot yet fully understand the overall impact a C has.

I’m not saying this is the case. I think Posey is more valuable. I’m just saying there is no way we know enough to make proclamations in cement like that.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

What are you talking about?! Molina IS barely the better player (whose defensive advantage more than makes up for his offensive disadvantage), and even if he wasn’t, his ability to play much longer and therefore put up better counting numbers gives him the edge in Hall of Fame candidacy anyway.

It’s very unlikely that either of them get in on the first ballot, but the only reason Molina wouldn’t get in first is due to Posey retiring a year before him.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Well, on second thought, let’s say you can easily argue either way as to which one was a better overall player in their primes.

The rest of the points still stand, though.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

Posey is a lock, and he should be. I’m of the mind that the peak is what matters and Posey’s peak was insane. Even with the short career, he’s a Top 10 catcher by this modified JAWS ranking.

Think about this: Can you think of any catcher aside from him and Molina that played last year that are on track to be a Hall of Famer? Yasmani Grandal is next in fWAR among active catchers. JT Realmuto, maybe, but he’d have to play for another 7 years or something and stick at catcher and be good. Mike Zunino (!!!!) is 5th among active catchers in fWAR. Martin Maldonado (!!!!!!) is 8th. Will Smith will probably need 10 years to get 40 more wins. It’s an exaggeration, but only an exaggeration, to think that the next active MLB catcher with a decent shot at Cooperstown will be Adley Rutschman.

dl80Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Keibert Ruiz!

NATS FanMember since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  dl80

Clearly your a Nats fan

dukewinslowMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Even those who aren’t active but aren’t in yet…. Molina, Posey, Mauer will get in but McCann likely won’t. And McCann will be a tough bar to clear.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

I don’t see McCann being particularly close. A single 5 win season and a single 4 win season, everything else 3 or less. Also well short on counting stats, which I don’t care about but voters do

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  dukewinslow

The McCann argument is being created by apples-to-oranges comparisons. fWAR now includes pitch framing, which has significantly increased his WAR total. He’s being compared, however, to catchers from prior decades who didn’t have the advantage of having modern pitch framing stats added into their WAR. McCann is a fine catcher. He is not a HOFer.

trywerlt
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

yeah, but this modified JAWS rating still deprives everyone who played prior to 1990 from gaining or losing a significant amount of value.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

While I am not going to question what qualifies a player for the Hall of Fame I have called it the Hall of Offense on numerous occasions. That should be much less a factor when the position of catcher is considered. The catcher is unique to the game, just take a quick look at the glove he uses. A Supreme Court justice once said he couldn’t define pornography but he would know it when he saw it. I think recognizing who is a Hall of Fame catcher is similar. I don’t need numbers to tell me who fulfills the necessary requirements and Buster Posey, Joe Mauer and Yadier Molina all have such a gap over their contemporaries that they all should be first ballot selections.

tung_twista
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

>Will Smith will probably need 10 years to get 40 more wins. It’s an exaggeration, but only an exaggeration, to think that the next active MLB catcher with a decent shot at Cooperstown will be Adley Rutschman.

What are the chances that Rutschman records numbers resembling wrc+ 130, 161 and 130 in the next three years because that is what Will Smith did.
(To be fair, the first two years were 196PA as a rookie and 137PA in shortened season)
I see Steamer projecting wrc+ 113 next year.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

(cough) RUSSELL MARTIN (cough)

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

J.T. Realmuto could very well get in the way he’s going. It’s not hard at all to see him play another 7 years at catcher at least the majority of the time.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yes, peak matters, but longevity (with at least a decent level of play for most of it) matters just as much. The fact remains that Posey is much more of a borderline call than he would’ve been had he played another 3 or 4 years.

Dmjn53
4 years ago

Now that’s how you go out on top

carterMember since 2020
4 years ago

Wonder how much of it has to do with the sale of Body Armor? He apparently was a large stake holder.

shaq_diesel
4 years ago
Reply to  carter

I’d imagine after you earn $100M, additional money doesn’t really influence when you retire. If you enjoy it, you’d go play in Japan with Adam Jones, Andruw Jones, and Manny Ramirez when your big league opportunities go away. If you don’t enjoy, another $100M isn’t brining you back.

carterMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  shaq_diesel

Probably true, but I think it is a pretty broad assumption to assume wealthy people are not motivated by money when they have a lot of money already.

shaq_diesel
4 years ago
Reply to  carter

Agree. But defrauding investors is fun for some people whether they have $100 or $100M. Baseball is strenuous physical job. It pays more than ditch digging, but the pain and wear is the same. If a ditch digger has enough money, he’s not going to dig ditches tomorrow.

sujaic
4 years ago

We still can’t quantify the value of game calling. He caught shutouts in almost 25% of the playoff games he played! His 14 shutouts caught is almost double that of Molina despite Molina having played in considerably more playoff games.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  sujaic

You do know that playoff games are a very small sample size when discussing overall careers, don’t you?

Ryan
4 years ago

I think the comparison to Thurman Munson would be a lot more accurate than that to Sandy Koufax. Pretty similar accolades and stats.

tung_twista
4 years ago
Reply to  Ryan

Was going to mention this.
The similarities are quite astounding.
MVP, multiple world series rings, 7 MVPs and a RoY
Relatively short career with good rate stats.

Ted Simmons used to be the best catcher not in the Hall
but now that distinction arguably belongs to Munson.

So the question is why is Munson not in the hall?

I am speculating since I didn’t watch baseball in the 70’s
but the fact that Munson’s playing time coincided with
Johnny Bench (1st in all time catcher war)
Carlton Fisk (4th in all time catcher war)
Ted Simmons
and Gary Carter (2nd in all time catcher war)
probably didn’t help.

To be blunt, 5th best catcher of an era doesn’t feel like a HoFer,
although you can’t blame Munson for being unlucky enough to play with 3 of the top 5 catchers of all time.

Of course, Posey does not share this problem
as he is undoubtedly the best catcher of the 2010’s
and easily a top 3 catcher in the 21st century with Mauer and Molina.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

I think position saturation is a real thing. It happened in that era with Nettles: Schmidt, Brett, and Robinson were all outstanding and better than Nettles. That makes it feel like Nettles shouldn’t be in the Hall but I certainly think he’s got the hardware. How else do you explain Duke Snider waiting over a decade to get in?

Catchers and third basemen seem to get shafted more than any other player, although it feels for different reasons.

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

As an ancient baseball fan who watched baseball in the 1970s, Bench was obviously the king. Munson and Fisk were #2 and 3. Simmons was regarded as 4th because he wasn’t the defensive catcher of the other three. Carter really rose up beginning in 1977, and made his name post Munson’s career. That in essence why Munson is viewed 5th. He died, the others kept playing, but during their peak periods, Munson was regarded at #2 or #3 depending on Fisk’s health. It was an incredibly deep time for catchers. Munson should not in anyway be penalized for that. He’s a HOFer. They all are HOFers. Posey should be a HOFer, as should Mauer. For some reason, Munson has been punished.

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  Jay Jaffe

Jay, I know you’ve been a supporter of Munson for the Hall, and it was your writing that got me to relook at his case. I went from, he falls short as a HOFer, to what the heck, he’s an obvious HOFer!

It’s curious that the #1 catcher in the AL for the entire decade of the 1970s, one who was the first captain of the New York Yankees since Lou Gehrig, a ROY, an MVP, a multiple Gold Glove winner, an All-Star in 7 of the 10 seasons for the decade, the heart and soul of a team that won three straight AL titles and back-to-back World Series titles, is not in the Hall. And, oh yeah, he was a big postseason performer, hitting in every postseason he appeared in. His career conveniently occurred during the entirety of the 1970s, outside of a cup of coffee in late 1969, and his tragic death in August of 1979. While fans and writers will often pick an arbitrary begin and end point to make a case for a player, in this case it’s not arbitrary. Munson’s HOF case is built on him being the best catcher in the AL for the entirety of the 1970s. Fisk was certainly his equal, but he also was injured, contributing to Munson’s approximate 10 rWAR lead.

Bench, Munson, Fisk, Simmons lead the pack, but Tenace also played that decade, and Bill Freehan played for a little over half of it. Jim Sundberg was a superb defender. Gary Carter rose up in the latter part of the decade. What an incredibly deep period for catchers. A true Golden Age. This shouldn’t work against the man. Just the opposite. Being the best catcher in the AL during this Golden Age should have punched his ticket for the Hall.

It’s for that reason, I find it odd that some fans and writers, to argue against Posey, are noting that if Munson isn’t in then Posey shouldn’t be. It’s wrong. The argument is Posey is clearly a HOFer, and so is Munson. The Era Committee needs to correct this. It’s cases like Munson why they exist.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  tung_twista

Or maybe Posey’s Hall of Fame case just isn’t as strong as some of you think it is.

MikeD
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

…or, maybe you can check back here beginning in five or six years to see if Posey’s Hall of Fame case is stronger than you think it is.

johnforthegiants
4 years ago

I sure hope he gets in and I sure think he deserves to get in but I’m looking at his 158 HR and 1500 hits and I don’t think that too many people who can vote will agree with me.

shaq_diesel
4 years ago

Sadly, I agree. Soooo many voters are Skip Bayless clones.

dodgerbleu
4 years ago

This

Johnnie TMember since 2024
4 years ago

Jay makes a compelling case for his inclusion based in no small part on his great pitch framing. But how many HOF voters know about pitch framing or put such a high value on it? Without the framing stats, his candidacy is not a sure fire thing, really, is it.

I think he will get in as much because of his 3 WS rings, his general reputation as a likable guy high in the character department, and that he retired while still an excellent player which leaves a good taste in voters’ mouths.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  Johnnie T

The question is not “how many HOF voters know about pitch framing or put such a high value on it” today, but rather in five to fifteen years from now, during Posey’s eligibility window. That makes him a sure-fire entrant, even if it takes a little while.

StuSheaMember since 2025
4 years ago

Well said, Jay. Thanks.

Dmjn53
4 years ago

I’ve always found the whole counting stat thing ridiculous. Hypothetically, Posey playing for a few more years at/near replacement level (I happen to think he’d be well above replacement level, but play along) would make him a better HOF candidate simply because it got him to the arbitrary number of 2000 hits.

I felt similarly when Pujols was chasing 660 home runs. It felt a bit hollow given that his last 119 home runs have come in seasons where he’s accumulated -2.3 WAR

Barney Coolio
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I think more people are agreeing with you on counting stats, especially for catchers.

I think that Pujols’ “chasing 660 HRs” is far different as 660 is far higher than what anyone would consider a HOF standard, especially when Pujols already had 3000 hits.

shaq_diesel
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

It was the same with Johnny Damon chasing 3000. I remember trying to convince people that Damon getting his 3000th hit after batting .160 on the Marlins as a 45 year old should have no impact on his all time qualifications. Then Ichiro actually did that on the Marlins 5 years later, although he didn’t need to rot away in a MLB uniform.

tomerafan
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I really wanted Nick Markakis to get to 3000 hits just to blow up the counting stat argument.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

But longevity is a skill in itself, otherwise we’d elect anyone who could put up Hall of Fame level rate stats over 10 years and then retire in their early 30’s when they just start to decline, and it’s why we have the 10 year minimum eligibility rule in the first place. Koufax and maybe Posey are extremely rare exceptions only due to how utterly elite they were during their relatively short careers.

I’m not saying Posey has to have been as elite as Koufax was (he certainly wasn’t), but was he elite enough to make up for his lack of longevity? The answer can go either way depending on the individual voter.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I think being good for a while matters, I don’t think playing 5 years too long matters

Six Ten
4 years ago

Another way to think about this is that MLB or some clear forerunner to it has been around for about 140 years. In the last 30 years, there are really only two catchers whose career individual achievements we could say are ahead of Posey’s: Piazza and Rodriguez. If Posey isn’t a HoFer that means that either the last 30 years have seen a nadir in catcher quality relative to other positions (which seems impossible to believe, given how much more we know about what they do defensively now) or it means that a fair reflection of history would be that something like 8-10 total catchers ever should be in the Hall (which is stupid).

Posey is at worst the third best catcher of the last 30 years. He had the best one-year and three-year peak of the three; he was in the middle on seven-year peak behind Piazza. And it seems a near certainty that if he kept playing his career WAR would pass Piazza’s but stay behind Pudge’s. (A quick shout for Posada, who I think is underrated because he was overshadowed by some teammates, but he and Molina clearly run behind the other three.)

There’s just no doubt to me. However you slice it historically, there’s not really a way you can frame this question that would exclude Posey from the Hall without creating a comically small set of Hall-worth catchers. Add to that how fun it was to watch Posey, how great he was at all aspects of the game … there just aren’t many who have every single tool like he did.

Randy HEatonMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

You are missing Joe Mauer in this discussion of top C from last 30 years. Joe and Posey are very similar and both should probably be HoFers. Salvador Perez also might be entering the discussion too with another year or two like 2021.

Six Ten
4 years ago
Reply to  Randy HEaton

I am missing Mauer and McCann both. McCann actually finished his career ahead of Mauer on fWAR (though not by enough to make a material difference) because his defensive metrics were awesome. To me the fact that Posey ended up ahead of them both despite a playing three fewer years (two if you want to count 2020 as well) sets him a level just above, but there certainly were other good catchers. This is kinda my point: I think we’ve had some of the best catchers ever playing the last few years. 8 of the top 30 all time by fWAR (add Russell Martin to the aforementioned) played all of their career within the last 30 years. If only two of them are Hall worthy we have a stupidly narrow lens on our hands.

I love Perez. He’s the cult of personality at the center of my own favorite team. But he’s got some miles to go here. He’s still a below average hitter for his career. Even if you aren’t sure about framing metrics, his other defense is good but not good enough to make up for the poor hitting on a Hall ballot. Heck, he doesn’t even rank in the top two for career fWAR by a catcher while wearing a Royals uniform. If he somehow pulls off another five or six years like last year we might have a real discussion, but otherwise it’s just not gonna be close.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Randy HEaton

Perez for his career has been a league average hitter, and unlike Molina the numbers don’t agree that he’s a premium defender

Since his rookie year he’s 14th among catchers in WAR and 16th in wRC+, behind guys like Fransisco Cervelli, Jason Castro, and Miguel Montero. I don’t actually think he’s been the 14th best catcher over the last decade, but the point is he’s nowhere close to being HOF caliber

DDMember since 2020
4 years ago

These tables only reinforce for me that if Russell Martin isn’t a hall of famer, neither is Yadi.

OddBall Herrera
4 years ago

The top of that pitch framing list sure looks like a group of…..

Hall of Framers

Pepper Martin
4 years ago

Here’s the total list ever of Hall of Fame position players who played full-season baseball (i.e., not short-season 19th century leagues or Negro Leagues) and played as few games as Buster Posey:

Ross Youngs
Hack Wilson
Chick Hafey
Frank Chance

So that’s three guys who got in because they had a) had sad life stories and b) were friends with Frankie Frisch, plus Frank Chance, who got in because of a famous poem. Not exactly sparkling company there.

Great player. Great offensively, great defensively. Won those rings. But if you’ve only got 1371 total games played in your career, you better be Mike Trout if you’re asking to get in to the Hall. Posey is not Mike Trout. I just can’t see it for him.

Six Ten
4 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

I think if games played is the comparison you want to make, you need to take into account the specifics of being a catcher and the era in which someone plays. If you prorate catchers based on, say, the share of games the average All Star catcher played in a given season, I suspect Posey starts to compare more favorably.

But the other thing is you have to account for the quality of those games. Chance is the only one whose career fWAR is within ten of Posey’s, and that’s just barely. You’ve made the case that playing few games requires you to be a better player than those guys quite well. But Posey was definitely better than those guys.

The entire point of JAWS is to consider both total career achievement, where Posey is limited, and peak, where Posey is outstanding. There’s nothing special about playing a humongous number of barely-above-replacement games on top of the huge peak, even if it keeps building up your counting stats. That’s how Julio Franco got to 42 fWAR despite never breaking 6 and having only three seasons above 3.1: he just kept playing.

I guess my point is that the denominator (total games, great games, total games prorated by position, a blend of some set of those) is inherently fuzzy. It seems unduly harsh to me to say “Well he’s clearly the best catcher of the last 20 years by counting stats, but he didn’t play enough games.” 20 years of zero HoF-worth players at the toughest hitter position there is? Obviously to each their own, but that standard seems doomed to making the Hall unrelatable to most fans, and I don’t know what the point would be of that.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

Right and Chance only rates closer to Buster because of his five years as a part time catcher on the front half of his career and hanging around for over a half decade. He racked up about 10 WAR that way.

Pepper Martin
4 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

I mean, saying that he’s “clearly the best catcher of the last 20 years” requires way more faith in Fangraphs’ pitch framing stats than I have. Joe Mauer has 10.3 more bWAR than Posey. For peak value, I feel like Posey and Mauer are pretty close (if give the edge to Mauer but I can understand disagreeing if you have more faith in pitch framing stats than I do), and worlds ahead of everybody else, but from a total career value perspective I don’t see much difference between Posey and Molina or Posada. And they’re all behind Mauer.

Different position, but: rings aside, I don’t see much difference between the Hall of Fame cases of Posey and Nomar Garciaparra. If I recall correctly, Nomar fell of the ballot after 2 years.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

I tend to agree that saying Posey is clearly the best catcher and that it’s closer with Mauer and Molina. And while Mauer and Posey are the prime peak guys, Molina and Posada are the long term productive guys at the toughest position. I think all four should be in.

As far as comparing Nomar to Posey, that’s off to me. Nomar had four great seasons, then the wrist injury in 2001, then two more very good years. And that’s it. Another six seasons of nearly 2,000 plate appearances with just less than 3 WAR put up.

Posey, on the other hand, had five seasons of at least six wins (one more than Nomar), and another three of at least four wins. So Posey has two more higher impact seasons, plus others where he isn’t a complete drag like Nomar was for four of his last five seasons. I think that’s a substantial difference between the two.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  Pepper Martin

That seems like an awkward way to frame Poseys career considering he was a much better player than all four.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  gettwobrute79

I also never really understand the question of whether they played “enough” because WAR is a cumulative statistic. If he played twice as long but was half as good per PA, would that really be a change for the better? I don’t think so.

The only reason for keeping Posey out of the Hall is to say that you want to set a single threshold for all positions, rather than thresholds for different positions. But when pressed, I don’t think they’d really want to have Hall with only 5 catchers.

gettwobrute79Member since 2026
4 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Right. I think there is room in the hall for different types: the guys who are good for 15 years, the guys who are great for 8 and have a couple other meh, etc. I tend to lean more to big peak guys, but there is certainly room to the guys who go a long time and are good (Don Sutton comes to mind, but he even had some big seasons) for a long time.

Pepper Martin
4 years ago
Reply to  gettwobrute79

Posey was a much better player than Yadier Molina in the same sense that Nomar was a much better player than Jeter. At their absolute peak? Yeah, no question. But longevity counts.

And you need to buy into Fangraphs’ pitch framing stats completely to say that Posey is better than Mauer. By bWAR, Mauer’s best season was better than Posey’s best; their second- best seasons were tied; Mauer had the better 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th best seasons; 7th best was tied; and Mauer is ahead down the rest of the chain.

drewsylvaniaMember since 2019
4 years ago

This is an amazing writeup. I came here to talk about JAWS, realized belatedly that the creator of JAWS is the author of this piece, and simply marveled at the completeness of this analysis. Well done.

CC AFCMember since 2016
4 years ago

If Posey goes in (as he should), I will be pounding the table like a maniac for Mauer. I always thought of them as AL-NL counterparts

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I don’t think you’ll have to resort to that. Mauer will get in IMO

ascheffMember since 2017
4 years ago

I love Buster Posey and wish him all the best in retirement, but man the Giants are in a weird spot this offseason. Most of their other key position player contributors were 33+ and had a resurgence year all at once, and they lost most of their great rotation.

Farhan Zaidi is a great GM, Logan Webb is a stud, and they have a great farm system, so the longterm outlook is really good, but the 2022 team will have huge error bars. I suspect they’ll be projected to be a low 80s win team by most computer models. They might break some kind of record for the biggest gap ever between the previous year’s win total and the next year’s projected win total.

Chili Davis Eyes
4 years ago
Reply to  ascheff

Well there is a whole offseason coming up, so I wouldn’t get too worked up about any projections that come out next week.

jazzrunner12Member since 2017
4 years ago

I think Posey is a no brainer for the Hall. I also hope the veterans group takes another look at Thurman Munson who finishes in the top 15 on lots of all time catcher lists and who also had his career cut short. Bill Freehan has an under-appreciated hall case also.

jmbarton13
4 years ago

I find it interesting the Posey is considered a sure fire HOFer (and I don’t necessarily disagree), but someone like Andruw Jones has trouble getting traction with the Rule of 2,000 often cited as the problem.

Both played valuable, up-the-middle positions. Both had relatively short peaks compared to the inner circle guys. At his best, Posey had a better bat; Jones had a better glove. Given everything we know about their careers, you’d probably take Jones if you had to choose one (higher JAWS, higher career WAR), yet the discourse doesn’t seem to follow.

If the Rule of 2,000 really matters, it’s hard to see a guy with only 75% of that breezing in. If Posey does sail in, it’s time for voters to stop holding career hit totals against the Andruw Joneses and Chase Utleys of the world.

Six Ten
4 years ago
Reply to  jmbarton13

Andruw Jones should be in the Hall and probably will be when all is said and done, though it should be a lot clearer cut than it has been. He’s the best defensive outfielder of all time by miles and miles, and he hit 400 home runs. It’s a remarkably easy case to me.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Six Ten

The domestic violence arrest hurts Jones a lot, but on the field he’s a clear HOF and I don’t know why it’s not obvious to more

LightenUpFGMember since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  jmbarton13

Agreed. If offensive stats are to be breezed over for defensive stats, pitch framing, and pitcher assistance, then bring on the offensively challenged candidates. It would be shocking if the HOF voters changed course for one but not all.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago
Reply to  jmbarton13

I think the big difference is that the standards for catching are much lower because everyone gets hurt there. Buster Posey is looking up at Johnny Bench, with 72 wins to his 57. Andruw Jones has 67 wins and is looking up four (!!!!) center fielders with fWAR higher than 100, including two close to 150, and Trout very well could make it five in the next 3+ years. And although he’s 11th in fWAR for center fielders (Posey is something like 7th for his position), he’s got like five additional center fielders who are within 5 fWAR behind him.

But otherwise I think your point stands. He is arguably the greatest center fielder of all time, and a pretty good hitter too.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  jmbarton13

Yes, Andruw Jones should get in and for the same reasoning that Scott Rolen and Yadier Molina should get in. (I hope that Jones’s potential candidacy also allows Jim Edmonds to get another look.)

Besides, Ozzie Smith already cleared the way years ago for elite defenders with good but more modest offensive numbers. If the Wizard is a Hall of Famer, why not Jones, Rolen, or Molina?

biscuitpants
4 years ago

“batting champion (also 2012, making him one of just five catchers to win”

It’s more than five. Don’t forget Gibson and Mackey (are there others?)

mjones650
4 years ago

Thanks for this article Jay. Lifelong Giants fan and I ran over to this site when I heard about his retirement for an article like this. It confirms what the fans have long known- he’s a Hall of Famer. And beyond the metrics, he’s been a clubhouse leader and just an incredible person. Very deserving.

bluerum29
4 years ago

The best defensive centerfielder this side of the Atlantic should be in the Hall of Fame. Highway robbery that he is not.

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
4 years ago

HANG ON A SEC — Mike Piazza, master framer?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
4 years ago

This is something that apparently multiple different methods agree upon. It’s imperfect but, yeah, he didn’t deserve quite as much heat for his defense as he took.

Dmjn53
4 years ago

As a Mets fan growing up watching Piazza, broadcasters always talked about his receiving long before pitch framing became quantifiable. His poor defensive reputation came from a weak throwing arm, which we know now is only a small part of catcher defense

Smiling PolitelyMember since 2018
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I saw him play as a teenager, and frankly, he could have been asleep behind the plate and still been a HoFer to me, but his weak arm is specifically what I remember. I’m more surprised I never retroactively learned that he could frame, specially since I feel like I spent all year tapping my “Piazza in ’97 is the greatest hitting performance from a catcher, ever” sign at every Sal Perez fan :p

I would *love* an offseason deep dive column into Mike Piazza’s framing (and/or other amazing tales of truth!)

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I’m curious. People nowadays always credit Piazza’s defense for pitch framing and discredit him for his throwing, but how good was he at blocking balls in the dirt, you know, the third major aspect of catcher’s defense?

chisoxmatt
4 years ago

Since Posey opted out because of Covid and is retiring early he doesnt have the longevity of a Hall of Famer in my eyes ala Johan Santana. But what a talent, strikeout to walk great and high average, and great D.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  chisoxmatt

Playing 60 games last year wasn’t going to move the needle in the longevity argument

AdvantageSchneiderMember since 2018
4 years ago

I was shocked when I heard the news. He had such a good year at the plate. 140 OPS+. I spent a little time today looking at what other hall of fame players or very good players produced in their final year. Only ones I could find that were better than Buster were David Ortiz at 164 and Ted Williams at 190!

Lanidrac
4 years ago

Are we counting Shoeless Joe Jackson (172) and Happy Felsch (143) of the Black Sox?

What about Eddie Gaedel, who has an inderterminant OPS+ (since his SLG was 0/0) but a wRC+ of 338?

miltonfriedman
4 years ago

Calvin Johnson, Buster Posey,Barry Sanders. Early 30’s and class acts. Bad people don’t retire early at the top of their game

sogoodlooking
4 years ago

“…and he doesn’t need another concussion or another surgery to meet some keyboard commando’s high standards of toughness.”

He does not in my view, but this hollow, unattractive attempt to subvert and preempt legitimate inquiries into whether Posey has played long enough to warrant baseball’s highest honor serves no one well.

yaro
4 years ago

Holding everyone to the same standard for counting stats across baseballs history is ridiculous, especially considering how different the game looks nowadays. If you dont change the requirement for X hits and Y homers based on the climate the player played in, the hall is going to barren for the forseeable future. The same logic applies for pitchers being held to ridiculous counting stat requirements. Honestly if the voters dont include Posey then the bar for a young catcher to clear to make the HoF at this point is essentially impossible, the way the game is played at this point.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  yaro

Sure, but his counting stats do need to be held up to those of his contemporaries at the very least.

Plus, we now have metrics like OPS+, wRC+, and various versions of WAR that at least attempt to draw comparisons across eras.

Dmjn53
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Among his contemporaries, he has a 9 WAR lead over the 2nd place catcher.

That’s head and shoulders among everyone else, nearly a full win per season

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Wrong. He only has a 2.8 bWAR lead over Molina, while Yadi still has another season to go (meaning Posey will probably only barely top him). He also significantly trails Mauer, and Realmuto also has a good chance to catch him someday. His lead over Russel Martin is also less than 9.

Although, since he does compare nicely to the other modern likely Hall of Fame catchers, he’s also likely to get in, just not any more likely than any of the others save for Martin.

Mean Mr. Mustard
4 years ago

Maybe this seems completely obvious, or there’s a fly in the ointment that I don’t see, but if we’re quibbling about the length of a player’s career and lack of counting stats, why not break player value down to WAR/games played, or WAR/plate appearance or /innings pitched?

Counting stats are misleading without context, and WAR rewards playing time which makes it a counting stat. Why not turn it into rate?

It feels like that gets closer to a player’s true value.

Baltimore, MurraylandMember since 2020
4 years ago

B-Ref now shows WAR/162 games (a nice add!) on the HOF/JAWS line.

Lanidrac
4 years ago

Um, that defeats the whole purpose of the argument as to how much Posey’s lack of counting stats affects his chances. They obviously do matter. The question is just how much they matter.

We already know Posey has Hall of Fame caliber offensive rate stats, so inventing new ones doesn’t tell us anything. That’s not the issue with his candidacy in the first place.

Mean Mr. Mustard
4 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I guess my point of view is that if he produced at an elite rate and meets the cutoff, it shouldn’t matter how many hits he got or whatever counting stat. It would cut the injury penalties that so many players suffer over a career, too.

I mean, if we’re measuring how good guys are, whether they ended with 1956 or 2056 hits doesn’t answer the question; it measures how much they got to play.

Lanidrac
4 years ago

Did he actually produce at such an elite rate, though? With such a cutoff, you have to be truly among the elite like Koufax or the first half careers of legends like Griffey, Pujols, and Trout to fully overcome that disadvantage. Posey is at least one tier below their levels, and whether or not Posey’s level is good enough for the Hall of Fame despite the lack of longevity is highly questionable. I think he does meet the mark but only barely and only because this last season of his was so good.

Of course losing significant time to injury also matters! You absolutely should be penalized for that!

That’s a very poor example. We’re not talking about a difference of a mere 100 hits here. We’re talking about several seasons worth of counting numbers here! If Posey actually had 1,956 hits, that would make for a much better case, but he only has a mere 1,500 and relatively mediocre counting stats in most other categories as well.

BRMember since 2020
4 years ago

An all-time great baseball name too. Very Hall-worthy. Congrats to Posey on a distinguished career.

ajamespowellMember since 2019
4 years ago

Thanks Jay for the article. I’m a Giants fan and of course a Buster fan, and thought your piece was a nice summary of his his career. Really appreciated reading it.

Lanidrac
4 years ago

It’s more like he left the last quarter of the test blank so he could leave early and get home before his kids do, knowing that he’ll probably still pass the test despite that.

ckruschkeMember since 2024
4 years ago

I’m sorry but I don’t get the “Buster is a Cooperstown Lock” when Joe Mauer is considered marginal (and if this wasn’t by you I apologize, but I’ve read a lot of “Mauer isn’t a HOFer articles). The only stats that Posey exceeds Mauer is in HR, SLG%, and WS wins. In every other category, Mauer is superior – H, R, RBI, R, BA, OBP. He has 3 batting titles and is the only AL catcher to win any and only catcher to win 3. He also has an MVP and has more Silver Sluggers and Golden Gloves but 1 less AS appearance. He also is right there with your fielding/framing WAR metric. So are we saying that if Mauer had retired in 2013 rather than moving to 1B, he would have also been a lock? Or would he have been discarded because he didn’t achieve your magic number of 1000 games caught (921 games)? OR are we saying that Posey is a lock because he was a key cog on 3 WS winning teams – because that’s the only reason that I can see – subtract that and he’s worse (and in places much worse) than Mauer in almost every way.

alilisd
4 years ago

Ugh, way to cherry pick 1K games caught. Now the MLB writers are using it to talk about what a slam dunk HOF Posey is. Well, Ted Simmons had a 124 OPS+ through age 33 when he stopped being a catcher, and had way more time behind the plate than Posey. Gary Carter had a 124 OPS+ through age 32 and over 1,500 games caught. You need to acknowledge that Posey’s rates, while impressive, do not include the decline seasons other catchers had. It’s fine if you want to include him in the HOF discussion as a pure peak player, but it should be acknowledged that he doesn’t have anywhere near the career numbers of other HOF catchers, and he should not be treated as some sort of no doubt, slam dunk candidate.

SnowLeopard
4 years ago

Low information voter: “Three rings and heroic vibe …. I dunno man, just feels like a Hall of Famer to me.”

Medium information voter: “1,500 hits and 158 homers? Only 1,371 games played? Sorry but no. We have got to hold some standards here.”

High information voter: “Looking at the chart of Weighted Framing-Inclusive JAWS for Catchers, created using a 50–50 blend of framing-exclusive and framing-inclusive methodologies …”

John FranzenMember since 2021
4 years ago

Great article! Really enjoyed the read, and look forward to hearing future debate. You have me pretty well convinced.

runningfrog
4 years ago

After watching the final 9 years of Albert Pujols’ career I have a ton more respect for Posey going out after 12.

Imagine Pujols retiring after 12 seasons. His final stat line would have been:
475 HR
325/414/608
84.6 WAR

First ballot HOFer. No question whatsoever. Same lifetime WAR as George Brett and good for 30th all time among batters.

Instead we got 9 more seasons in which he added a whopping 2.3 WAR to his career total.

Final 9 season slash for Pujols: 251/306/438

I don’t fault Pujols for choosing to collect $216m in extra salary for being a replacement level hitter for 9 seasons. But I certainly give Posey some extra respect for not going that route.

jmbarton13
4 years ago
Reply to  runningfrog

I think this also gives some interesting context to Posey’s (and Pujols’) HOF candidacy. Obviously the bar for a HOF catcher is different than the bar for a HOF first baseman, but you’d have to double Posey’s peak to come anywhere close to Pujols’ numbers over his first 12 years. In my mind, to be a sure fire HOF with a short career, you have to be transcendent and put up Koufax / Mantle / Pujols / Trout numbers. Posey was extremely good, but he wasn’t transcendent.

Lanidrac
4 years ago
Reply to  runningfrog

I’m not going to get into the DH WAR argument again, but a .744 OPS is far better than a mere replacement level hitter, and that batting average is also pretty decent.

NATS FanMember since 2018
4 years ago

Posey is clearly a very smart guy. My guess is he gets bored playing firstbase, so if he can’t catch he does not like to play. That’s just a guess, but I’ll stick by it.

chartsengrafs
4 years ago

Any position he plays he could get hit in the head when he bats.

Dominikk85Member since 2020
4 years ago

The hardware will certainly help and if you add framing his war is deserving but while Hof standards are changing his PA, hit and Rbi totals are extremely low and I think Some old school guys will be repelled by that.