The Big Questions About the 2023 BBWAA Hall of Fame Ballot

© Tim Heitman-USA TODAY Sports

If you were waiting for a time when the discussion around the BBWAA’s annual Hall of Fame voting didn’t center around Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and Curt Schilling, then I have good news: After 10 years of increasingly polarized debate, they all fell short of the 75% needed for election and have run out of eligibility on the ballot. They’re now candidates on the Contemporary Baseball Era Committee ballot — a problem for another day — but they’re not part of the 28-man slate unveiled by the Hall on Monday. That’s not to say that this ballot is devoid of controversial figures, or that debates about character are a thing of the past, but we can finally move beyond the cast that hit the 2013 ballot and spent 10 years monopolizing discussions and draining some of the fun out of the whole process.

The 2023 ballot doesn’t come without controversy, particularly in relation to the top newcomer, Carlos Beltrán. A nine-time All-Star and three-time Gold Glove winner who racked up 2,745 hits, 435 homers, and 312 steals, he’s got numbers to appease traditionalists, and likewise, he checks the advanced stat boxes by ranking eighth in WAR and ninth in JAWS among center fielders, thanks in no small part to the extra value he provided on the bases and in the field. For all of that, Beltrán is the player most closely identified with the Astros’ illegal sign stealing scandal, less because his own performance benefited (his 2017 season was below replacement level) than because The Athletic’s reporting and commissioner Rob Manfred’s subsequent report placed him at the center of the efforts to decode opposing catchers’ signs using the team’s video replay system.

Whether that is an offense grave enough to cost Beltrán a chance at Cooperstown is a matter for debate; his involvement in the matter already cost him his job as the Mets manager before he oversaw a single game. He returned to baseball this past year as a broadcaster for the YES Network, though no team has considered him for an in-uniform job since he left the Mets.

There will be time enough to consider that question and several others over the next six weeks as I profile all 28 candidates, either at length or in brief, examining their cases in light of my Jaffe WAR Score (JAWS) system, which I’ve used to break down Hall of Fame ballots in an annual tradition that’s almost old enough to drink. The series debuted at Baseball Prospectus (2004-12), then moved to SI.com (2013-18), which provided me an opportunity to go into greater depth on each candidate; in 2018, I brought the series to FanGraphs.

Today I’ll offer a quick look at the biggest questions attached to this year’s election cycle, but first…

The Basics

To be eligible for election to the Hall of Fame via the BBWAA ballot, a candidate must have played in the majors for parts of 10 years (one game is sufficient to be counted as a year in this context), have been out of the majors for five years (the minors or foreign leagues don’t count), and then have been nominated by two members of the BBWAA’s six-member screening committee. Since the balloting is titled with respect to induction year, not the year of release, that means that this year’s newcomers last appeared in the majors in 2017. Each new candidate has 10 years of eligibility on the ballot, a reduction from the 15-year period that was in effect for several decades. The last candidate grandfathered into getting the full 15 years was Lee Smith, whose eligibility expired in 2017; Jeff Kent, who’s now in his 10th and final year, is the last candidate to have his tenure reduced mid-run.

You Aren't a FanGraphs Member
It looks like you aren't yet a FanGraphs Member (or aren't logged in). We aren't mad, just disappointed.
We get it. You want to read this article. But before we let you get back to it, we'd like to point out a few of the good reasons why you should become a Member.
1. Ad Free viewing! We won't bug you with this ad, or any other.
2. Unlimited articles! Non-Members only get to read 10 free articles a month. Members never get cut off.
3. Dark mode and Classic mode!
4. Custom player page dashboards! Choose the player cards you want, in the order you want them.
5. One-click data exports! Export our projections and leaderboards for your personal projects.
6. Remove the photos on the home page! (Honestly, this doesn't sound so great to us, but some people wanted it, and we like to give our Members what they want.)
7. Even more Steamer projections! We have handedness, percentile, and context neutral projections available for Members only.
8. Get FanGraphs Walk-Off, a customized year end review! Find out exactly how you used FanGraphs this year, and how that compares to other Members. Don't be a victim of FOMO.
9. A weekly mailbag column, exclusively for Members.
10. Help support FanGraphs and our entire staff! Our Members provide us with critical resources to improve the site and deliver new features!
We hope you'll consider a Membership today, for yourself or as a gift! And we realize this has been an awfully long sales pitch, so we've also removed all the other ads in this article. We didn't want to overdo it.

To be elected, a candidate must receive at least 75% of the ballots cast, and in this case, they don’t round up; 74.9% won’t cut it. Likewise, candidates who don’t receive at least 5% of the vote fall off the ballot and can then only be considered for election by what’s now called the Contemporary Baseball Era Committee, an entirely separate process — but not until what would have been their 10-year run of eligibility expires.

The voters, each of whom has been an active BBWAA member for 10 years and is no more than 10 years removed from active coverage, can list as many as 10 candidates on their ballots, a number that’s become a point of contention in recent years given the high volume of qualified candidates. In 2015, the Hall tabled a BBWAA proposal to expand to 12 slots (I was on the committee that recommended the change). Last year, the seventh since the Hall purged the rolls of voters more than 10 years removed from coverage, 394 ballots were cast, the fewest of any cycle since 2015, the final cycle before the cutdowns. That’s a reduction of 28% over seven years.

Ballots must be postmarked by December 31 (yes, the BBWAA still does this by mail). Voters may still reveal their ballots prior to the announcement, as 52% of voters did last year; you can track the reported ballots via Ryan Thibodaux’s Ballot Tracker if you want. Voters can also check a box on the ballot to authorize the publication of their choices via the BBWAA’s website two weeks after the election results are revealed; between that outlet and the Tracker, 78.4% of voters revealed their ballots in 2022, about six points below the record of 84.1% from ’20.

The results will be announced on MLB Network on January 24. Any players elected will join any honorees elected via the Contemporary Baseball ballot, whose results will be announced on December 4, for the Induction Ceremony scheduled for July 23, 2023 on the grounds of the Clark Sports Center in Cooperstown, New York.

Are you ever going to tell us who else is on the ballot?

The ballot released on Monday includes 14 holdovers from last year’s slate, and 14 newcomers, noted in italics:

Bobby Abreu, Bronson Arroyo, Carlos Beltrán, Mark Buehrle, Matt Cain, R.A. Dickey, Jacoby Ellsbury, Andre Ethier, J.J. Hardy, Todd Helton, Torii Hunter, Andruw Jones, Jeff Kent, John Lackey, Mike Napoli, Jhonny Peralta, Andy Pettitte, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Francisco Rodríguez, Scott Rolen, Jimmy Rollins, Gary Sheffield, Huston Street, Omar Vizquel, Billy Wagner, Jered Weaver, and Jayson Werth.

Are there any other newcomers who have a chance at election besides Beltran?

Probably not. Of the seven new position players, none of the others besides Beltran reached 2,000 hits, and none even came close, with Peralta (1,746) the only one within 500 of that mark. If you’ve followed my work, you know that until Tony Oliva was elected last year via the Golden Days Era Committee ballot, no player from the post-1960 expansion era with fewer than 2,000 hits made it into the Hall, and there isn’t a second one waiting in the wings here.

The situation is similar among the starting pitchers. Lackey’s 188 career wins is a respectable total, but no starter with fewer than 200 has been elected since Sandy Koufax in 1972, and Lackey, with his career 3.92 ERA and lack of Cy Young awards, is no Koufax, to put it lightly. That said, it’s worth pointing out that the 32.8-WAR gap between Beltran (70.1) and Lackey (37.3) is barely half as large as last year’s 62.3-WAR gap between the top two newcomers, Alex Rodriguez (117.6) and David Ortiz (55.3) — and yet it was the latter who was elected, more on which below.

The one other newcomer who in theory at least has a shot at eventual election is Francisco Rodríguez. K-Rod was the Angels’ secret weapon out of the bullpen when they won the 2002 World Series, and he went on to become one of the top relievers in the game, making four All-Star teams, topping 40 saves six times, and leading the league in saves three times. He’s fourth on the all-time list with 437 saves, behind Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman, and Smith, all of whom are enshrined, and he has more saves than the Hall’s five other relievers, not to mention Wagner, who appears more likely than not to gain entry some day. Rodríguez does not fare as well as Wagner, last year’s one-and-dones Joe Nathan and Jonathan Papelbon, or five of the eight enshrinees in R-JAWS. Off the field, he incurred multiple criminal charges, including a guilty plea to third-degree assault for attacking his girlfriend’s father in 2010 and a 2012 arrest for a domestic abuse charge. Voters don’t always rule out candidates for such matters, however, and that leaves him as the only other newcomer besides Beltrán with a statistical case that’s at least comparable to players already enshrined.

Who has the best shot among the holdovers?

Three returning candidate topped the 50% threshold last year, namely Rolen (63.2% in his fifth year), Helton (52% in his fourth year), and Wagner (51% in his seventh year). That threshold is significant because every candidate who has ever reached it except Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling has eventually been elected. Rolen, Helton, and Wagner don’t have that trio’s baggage, so it’s fair to say that those guys appear to be on a path towards election.

Rolen, who had the biggest annual gains of any candidate in each of the past two cycles, is obviously in the best shape of the bunch, and is within reach of election this year. As The Athletic’s Jayson Stark pointed out in the wake of the results back in January, his path towards 75% bears a strong resemblance to that of Mike Mussina, who was elected in 2019 after receiving 63.5% the year before.

However, Rolen’s election this year is hardly a slam dunk, which raises the possibility that the BBWAA voters could pitch a shutout for the second time in three years (2021 was the other), and third in 11 years (including 2013). Since the voters returned to annual balloting in 1966, candidates have received between 61% and 65% and still had eligibility remaining 22 times. Of those, seven were elected in the next year, while 12 needed two years, two needed three years, and one needed four years. If I limit the results to candidates who landed in that range within their first five years, the breakdown is four out of 11 elected in the following year (Mussina, Barry Larkin, Eddie Mathews, and Ryne Sandberg), with the other seven needing two years.

With shares just a hair or two lower than Rolen in 2021 (52.9%), Helton and Wagner are long-shots for this year given that the largest one-year gains resulting in election were 24.2% by Larkin in 2012 (from 62.1%) and 22% by Larry Walker in ’20 (from 54.6%). Both would have to surpass Walker, which may not be impossible, but seems improbable.

Meanwhile, both Jones (41.4%) and Sheffield (40.6%) are looking to cross the 50% threshold. For the former, now in his sixth year of eligibility, that would be a sign that he can still be elected via the writers’ ballot, though for the latter, in his ninth year of eligibility, it’s more about setting himself up for a shot via the Contemporary committee. Of the recent players elected in their 10th and final year of eligibility, Sheffield is well ahead of Walker, who received only 34.1% in year eight before receiving the second-largest two-year bump in modern voting history, but behind Tim Raines (55% in year eight) and Edgar Martinez at (58.6%).

What about the players linked to PEDs?

So far, nobody suspended by Major League Baseball either for testing positive or incurring a non-analytic positive (i.e., identified as a user via a league investigation such as Biogenesis) since testing began in 2004 has been elected. The twice-suspended Ramirez is puttering along, having received 28.9% in his sixth year of eligibility last year, and A-Rod debuted with just 34.3%, which is about two points below Bonds and 3.4 points below Clemens in 2013. Both members of that gruesome twosome were connected to PED usage from a time before testing and penalties were in place, so they’re in a different boat.

That’s also true for Sheffield, whose name surfaced in the BALCO investigation because he briefly trained with Bonds; that’s been a drag on his support — we are talking about a nine-time All-Star with 509 home runs and a 140 OPS+ here — and may yet prove to be an impediment to election. As for Ortiz, he made voting history last year, as the first player who reportedly failed the supposedly-anonymous 2003 survey test (a group that also includes Ramirez, Sosa, and A-Rod) and then gained entry. He broke out of that group thanks to Manfred, who basically exonerated him during his farewell tour, a courtesy he did not extend to Sosa.

As long as I’m tracking it, it’s worth noting that Peralta, a three-time All-Star shortstop, was one of 13 players suspended by Major League Baseball in connection with Biogenesis. He drew a 50-game suspension in 2013.

Who’s about to fall off the ballot?

Kent is in his final year of eligibility; he received just 32.7% last year, 0.3% above what he received in 2021. Particularly with the top of the ballot cleared out, it wouldn’t be a surprise to see him get a bump in the order of what Fred McGriff (+16.6% in 2019) and Alan Trammell (+15.8% in 2016) received in their final years, though both were starting from the mid-20s, not the low 30s. While that’s too little too late to get Kent anywhere on the writers’ ballot, recall that Trammell was elected by the Modern Baseball Era Committee two years later and that McGriff is probably the favorite on this year’s Contemporary ballot. Kent is just 21st among second basemen via JAWS, but his 377 homers and reputation as a big RBI guy are a better fit for Committee votes.

Lower down, Hunter (5.3%) and Buehrle (5.8%) cleared the cutoff by just one and three votes, respectively, and Abreu (8.6%) and Rollins (9.4%) were in single-digit territory. Voters may decide their candidacies are lost causes and drop them, but then again, with more space on the ballot after last year’s clean out, they may pick up some votes as well.

Who is this year’s Grady Sizemore?

While the official rules make anybody who played at least 10 seasons in the majors and has been retired for five seasons eligible — anybody who’s not on baseball’s ineligible list, that is, or has not already exhausted his eligibility — not everybody who meets those requirements actually lands on the ballot. That’s because there’s a stage that involves some subjective choices via the BBWAA Screening Committee, the six-member panel that determines the final slate; sometimes a player with a notable career but no shot at election, a player for whom just being included on the ballot is the real honor, slips through the cracks. In 2021 it was Sizemore, who through his age-25 season had made three All-Star teams and won two Gold Gloves but would thereafter become so beset by injuries that he played just 419 more games spread out over seven seasons, with a two-year absence in between; even so, his 27.8 career WAR was higher than both Nick Swisher and Michael Cuddyer, who did make the cut. Last year it was Michael Bourn, a two-time All-Star with 341 career steals but just 22.8 WAR. Other who have similarly missed the cut include Shannon Stewart (2014), Chan Ho Park (2016), Javier Vazquez (2017), and Mark Ellis (2019). This year, the dubious honor goes to Aaron Hill, a two-time Silver Slugger and one-time All-Star second baseman who accumulated 1,501 hits. His 24.4 WAR doesn’t hold a candle to Ellis’ 33.5; this is hardly an egregious oversight.

Do you get to vote?

Yes! As I joined the BBWAA in December 2010, the ’20 season marked my 10th in the organization, and so I’ve had the honor twice already. As I did in the years before I got my ballot, I went through my entire process of reviewing all of the serious candidates before the deadline (some of the one-and-dones slipped into January, and that may happen again because it’s more fun to Remember Some Guys who won’t make it to Cooperstown than to rush through them), and the exercise formerly known as “My Virtual Ballot” has become “My Ballot” https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jay-jaffes-2021-hall-of-fame-ballot/. Here’s me filling out my first one:

I’m not the only one at FanGraphs with a ballot. David Laurila, who like me first obtained his BBWAA card as a member of Baseball Prospectus in December 2010, is in his third year of voting as well. Meanwhile, Effectively Wild’s Ben Lindbergh received his first ballot last year, but chose not to vote given his feelings regarding the character clause.

Anyway, while this cycle won’t be the most fun we’ve had doing this — the fun of watching the 10th-year candidates boosted by JAWS and other advanced statistics make it across the 75% threshold has been the real highlight — the departure of Bonds et al., and the thinning of the crop of candidates should lower the temperature around this year’s discussions. Here at FanGraphs, we’ll have our annual crowdsource ballot soon, as well as my coverage of each and every candidate. Stay tuned!





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

90 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
EonADSMember since 2024
3 years ago

Please, for the love of all that is good in baseball, let Scott Rolen into the Hall. There isn’t a single good reason for keeping him out at this point.

compeau
3 years ago

Maybe with the steroid guys off the ballot, Rolen, Helton, Wagner, and Jones will get the attention they deserve. The greatest defensive CF of all time (who also has 400 HR) is struggling to get into the HOF, and it’s ridiculous.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  compeau

The domestic violence thing is a bit hard to ignore for Jones. You can’t make voters check a box for someone who repulses them.

Same with Beltran on the Astros cheating stuff.

But on his on-field stuff, there’s absolutely no question they’re in. Any attempt to make an argument against their candidacies on baseball grounds is pretty weak.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

The standard that a candidate has to 100% of the time behave in a manner of which 75% of voters approve either leads to a very small Hall, or a Hall of Unobjectionables. And David Ortiz.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

I’m not even sure I think we should keep them out of the hall, but “being implicated in a massive cheating scandal” and “threatening to kill your wife and beating her up after a few beers” definitely deserve further scrutiny!

The Duke
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

If he plays his cards right he could be a Senator of this great nation.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Is that better or worse than what Curt Schilling has done?

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Ty Cobb is in the hall, so the “character” disqualifier I don’t take legitimately.

Jones is not only the GOAT defense CF with 400 HR, from. 1997-2005 the only people with more WAR are roiders A-Rod and Bonds.

So the best (clean) in the world for 9 years should also tip the scale.

Dmjn53
3 years ago

Ty Cobb is essentially a prehistoric figure. I’m not sure he should have any relevance in a 2022 discussion

Lanidrac
3 years ago

Ty Cobb’s unlikable reputation is greatly exaggerated.

However, I do agree with you that the character clause has been applied very inconsistently over the years, not to mention that it’s impossible to know exactly who cheated with PEDs. The Hall of Fame is already full of huge jerks, drug (including alcohol) abusers, and at least one known cheater in Gaylord Perry, so they should just scrap the character clause and let them all in as long as they meet the on-field standards and aren’t on the ineligible list. (Sorry, Rose, Cicotte, and Shoeless Joe, but your actions go beyond mere character clause violations.)

FrancoeursteinMember since 2025
3 years ago

Ty Cobb was slandered by his biographer. He wasn’t an angel, but he wasn’t nearly as nasty as legend suggests.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Francoeurstein

Fair enough. Maybe Bobby Cox is a better example of this being inconsistent. He was Andruw’s manager and allegedly punched his wife in the face.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

Cobb is a fun example in that the perception of him was as a mean guy in his day, although he did have the Cochrane generosity. There were also rumblings about gambling/fixing with him and Tris Speaker. Voters inducted him on the first ballot. He’d be sort of Barry Bonds performance, Curt Schilling personality and Pete Rose gambling all in one person.

MikeD
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I went on a journey today after the ballot came out looking into Jones’ case again for the Hall, and it falls to him being regarded as the greatest defensive CFer ever (the certainty with which people make that claim makes me uncomfortable, but I’ll accept he’s in the top echelon) who also accumulated solid, but not spectacular, hitting numbers when looking at the era.

A 111 wRC+ (same OPS+) and 67 fWAR and 62 rWAR are very good accumulative numbers for WAR, but not good for automatic entry. Context is required. He clearly hasn’t pulled over enough of both the old-school stats voters, who likely note he didn’t achieve 2,000 hits, and the new-school voters who see he falls short of 70 WAR even with the defensive numbers baked in. There is certainly precedent for voting in someone who is regarded as the greatest defender at his position, such as Ozzie or Brooks, but both those players also achieved significant counting stats. Maybe Bill Mazeroski is a good argument. A lesser hitter than Jones, but regarded at the best turning DPs, yet even Maz exceeded 2,000 hits. Perhaps Tony Oliva’s election will help Jones, and Oliva didn’t get to 2,000 hits either. The election of middle infielders though are often viewed differently than OFers. Add it all up, and that’s why Jones so far is sitting on the outside looking in. Some say it’s criminal he’s not been elected. I don’t think so. His case isn’t automatic.

The elephant in the room is the DV incident, which almost assuredly will cost him some votes, although it remains unclear what happened there. Jones was found collapsed in his bed, arrested, but immediately released on a very small bail, his wife filed for divorce almost concurrently, asking for custody of their nine-year-old son and to have the prenup dissolved. Andruw Jones filed to have custody of his son claiming his wife was unfit. They eventually had a reconciliation on some level, but then a couple years later Andruw filed for divorce, and once again seeking custody of their son. His wife a couple weeks later also filed for divorce a second time. A judge ruled on the two divorce suits in late 2015. So what do we have here? A mess of he said/she said claims to the point where if I had a vote, I wouldn’t even consider it without other proof and incidents. The good news is both are now free of each other, at least in marriage, and their son, Dru, that both wanted to claim custody over in 2013 and then again in 2015 is now 18 and recently signed to an $8MM+ deal with the D’backs in July.

For borderline cases like Jones’, some writers will default to the DV incident as the easy way out. Although the circumstances are quite different, It’s similar to voters passing on considering Pettitte because of the HGH incident with the Astros. I believe both are borderline candidates, with Pettitte on the wrong side of the line and Jones on the right side, but I’m not sure enough voters will explore their cases when they have an easy default excuse out of the debate.

Last edited 3 years ago by MikeD
sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

Someone here wrote once, in response to me, that the absolutely most disrespectful thing we could do is decide that domestic violence is just a deduction of points, knocking borderline cases down but not guys who are clearly over statistical benchmarks. I think that’s right. Reducing it to the same level as “striking out too much” just cheapens it. Either it’s an issue or it’s not, and if it’s an issue, I don’t want to deal with the next step.

As it so happens, I think Jones is a bit higher than a borderline case, but I wouldn’t even deal with it until I’ve made up my mind on whether his DV incident is a dealbreaker.

TKDCMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think that might have been me, but I definitely agree regardless. I have a certain understanding of the idea of being a DV hardliner. I do have my doubts on how convicted most of those hardliners would end up being. If Derek Jeter had a fuzzy allegation that was eventually dropped, would the hardliners follow through? I have doubts.

For me, I would need a certain level of severity and a certain level of certainty. I agree with some other commentators that the character clause was likely originally more about inclusion than exclusion. But that doesn’t mean any voters are required to treat it that way as that is not spelled out.

To me, it is about whether electing someone would send a drastic and damaging message. I don’t see that from Jones, Bonds, and Clemens for example (talking about just the non baseball/PED stuff, as I do think character inside baseball should be judged on a sliding scale).

The only player right now that I would disqualify under this standard now (among those I’d otherwise support) is Curt Schilling, and even there I’m far from certain I’m right. Omar Vizquel would likely be another but I don’t think he belongs anyway.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  TKDC

So a guy who says things people don’t like should be disqualified, but a guy who does things people don’t like (steroids or assault/domestic violence) shouldn’t be?

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Fine, then I’ll consider Schilling disqualified for the whole 38 Studios debacle.

With the so-called “character clause” as vague as it is, it basically comes down to how the X number of voters feel about it.

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

You have to consider his peak. From 1997-2005 only Bonds and A-Rod accumulated more WAR.

His issue is he didn’t stick around for 3 more years to add to his counting stats. But I don’t think adding 3 mediocre years should push someone over the line.

g4Member since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

Regarding the ~2,000 hit comparables you mention, Jones’ HOF case is far superior. Maz did manage to barely crest 2,000 hits but had 450 less walks and 300 less homers than Jones. Crimeny, the man had a career .299 OBP. Clearly Maz was not just a defense-first but a defense-ONLY selection.

Oliva comes closer, but he also amassed 450 less walks and 200 less homers than Jones. That ain’t not nothing. Plus, Oliva was a rightfielder — not a middle infielder — so he lacked Jones’ hefty defensive value.

I’m not arguing these veterans committee picks should be the benchmark — perhaps neither should have been inducted — just that one only has to look beyond career hits to recognize Jones was inarguably a full tier above.

sogoodlooking
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

You mean the domestic violence accusation?

Yes, it’s a good thing we know to a certainty no spouse on the verge of filing for divorce has ever sought leverage in ensuing proceedings by accusing the other spouse of dv.

There’s no tonic twds the presumption of innocence quite like a bar association’s seminar on “Leveraging Accusations in Family Court.”

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  sogoodlooking

A presumption of innocence is a guiding legal principal for the accused in a trial, putting the burden of proof on the prosecution. It has no real bearing or relevance on HOF voting discussions.

(Notice, too, that your presumption of innocence seems to apply to Jones only; apparently his spouse is granted no such grace with the insinuation that she was making everything up…)

ashlandateam
3 years ago
Reply to  sogoodlooking

We know literally nothing in the Andrew Jones case other than an accusation, a divorce, and a custody battle. Was Jones convicted? Did he end up getting custody or did his ex wife? I can’t find that information online – only that it was contested.

Interestingly enough, a recent Unsolved Mysteries episode had a case eerily similar to Jones’, except the woman was found to be lying and the man was painted as a victim. That may well have been the case here; it also may be that Jones is guilty of what he was accused, and far more. We don’t know, because it’s not public record. So it’s a bit of a choose your own adventure book, where whatever previous biases you have decide things.

In the end, people are judging one way or the other based on shockingly little factual information. Which basically happens all the time. But in this case, I would love to know something like five or six more relevant facts of what actually happened before I decided Jones was worth celebrating or worth forgetting.

Pepper Martin
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I feel like Jones is a special case in terms of players who fell off a cliff in terms of performance. He wasn’t injured; he didn’t succumb to drugs or alcohol like Doc Gooden or Sam McDowell. He seemed to simply stop caring about being in shape and playing baseball once he signed a contract with the Dodgers that gave him enough guaranteed money to live on. I feel like becoming bad at baseball virtually overnight, seemingly on purpose, should at least be considered by voters.

zekepMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  compeau

I’ve said this before, but teams build rosters for each SEASON of 162 games, not a career. Within that context, Jones put up 6 elite seasons out of 11 (>5 bWAR) with several near that. Like Alan Trammell (and others who began as regulars in teens/20 yo) his career declined rapidly after age 30. Few players have a peak longer than 12 years, and few players have ever been the best player at their position for nearly that length of time.

As for the DV charges, and while they cannot be excused, I think one can – and should – separate the person and the player. In reality, there are few elite players who are close to “normal” human beings – most of the public just simply can’t understand the psychological requirements needed to compete day in/day on a public stage as part of your JOB. Many guys inhabiting ML clubhouses are not moral exemplars, by any stretch; voters should just accept this and vote for the most deserving BALLPLAYERS.

68FCMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  compeau

Andruw Jones’ statistical case essentially relies on him being the greatest defensive outfielder of all time and not just by a small amount, but by about 50% over the next best. The fielding component of his fWAR is 276.4 runs above the average CF, the second highest all time is Willie Mays at 185 runs above average. The next highest outfielder is Roberto Clemente at 204 runs above average. Is Andruw Jones one of the greatest defensive outfielders of all time? Absolutely. Is he 50% better than any other outfielder ever? That is where I am skeptical.

If you knock his fielding value down to just 200 runs above average (still would be tops all time for a CF), and he drops under 60 fWAR and looks a lot more like Mike Cameron or Willie Davis with a higher peak. He doesn’t have particularly impressive offensive numbers since he was a low OBP slugger in an extremely high offense era who was at best an average baserunner. He was basically done by 30 seemingly because of his own poor work ethic. I can’t think of any other player who went from being a gold glover to unable to play the field as quickly as Jones without a catastrophic injury. He had knee troubles post-Atlanta, but those seem to have really started after his weight gain.

It really comes down to how you weight 10 years of brilliance on one side of the ball combined with competence on the other when he was one of the best players in baseball, but never THE best. Essentially he is Brooks Robinson if Robinson had retired 6 or 7 years earlier than he did.

Philip ChristyMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  68FC

If you’re skeptical of the defensive numbers, you can’t just knock off a percentage of defensive runs for Jones, you have to do it for all players. So if you knock his defensive runs down to 200 as you do in your comment, you also have to knock down Mike Cameron’s and Willie Davis’s, if you’re gonna compare them. Then, obviously, Jones looks way better than you’re making him out as.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

RA Dickey in the hall would be a blast. I know there’s no justification for it, I just like knuckleballers.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

So…Jose Canseco!

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Ivan_Grushenko

Raphael to Casey Jones: A Jose Canseco bat?! Tell me you didn’t pay money for this!

JoeyVottoIsGoneMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

People with a neat leg kick get into the Hall of Fame.

Come on down, Bronson Arroyo!

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago

Played a mean guitar also!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago

My pet cause is actually Mark Buehrle, who was an extremely entertaining pitcher on a number of levels and had a career a whole lot better than Dickey. Buehrle actually isn’t that far off a serious debate. But Dickey is. Putting him in would be solely because I thought he was fun.

g4Member since 2020
3 years ago

Uek said on air that he bought all of Arroyo’s CDs … for target practice. Ba-zing!

Jeff in JerseyMember since 2020
3 years ago

Beltran was a terrific player for a long time & dominant at times.
If Altuve, Bregman, et.al weren’t suspended and Cora got his job back, I can’t see a coherent argument for why he doesn’t make the Hall.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeff in Jersey

Because the people who vote in the elections are different than the people who make the decision on suspensions.

EonADSMember since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Also, Astros players were promised immunity from punishment for their testimony. Not remotely the same thing.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Jeff in Jersey

Voters don’t think they need a “coherent argument” why not. They think candidate needs to show how the pass the voter criteria, which could be, and usually is, mostly subjective.

AGCMember since 2025
3 years ago

It’s outrageous that you didn’t vote for Omar Vizquel and that he’s not already in. He was the best fielding SS of ALL TIME and has 2,870 hits. Come on.

alacy52
3 years ago
Reply to  AGC

The hit total is the only thing in this post that’s accurate.

Dmjn53
3 years ago
Reply to  AGC

In the spirit of Thanksgiving, I’m thankful for your statire

sadtromboneMember since 2020
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I hope that’s what this was.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

STATire! I see what you did there…

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

Oxford English Dictionary 2035

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  AGC

He was an excellent fielder, yes, but he was not even close to the defensive wizardry at SS displayed by Ozzie Smith.

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
Dmjn53
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Or even Lindor. Who’s career WAR is 0.5 less than Visquel with 1/3 the career games

Antonio BananasMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  AGC

Which took 24 years and a .274/.336/.352 career slash. If he played in an era that realized a slap hitting glove first (glove only really) SS isn’t worth the at bats, he’s not getting enough AB for the counting stats.

He’s basically what would happen if Andrelton Simmons got 600 AB for 24 years.

Last edited 3 years ago by Antonio Bananas
PhilMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  AGC

Here are the active shortstops who have had a better season than Vizquel’s best season (by fWar): Correa, Bogaerts, Lindor, Turner, Swanson (his 2022 season is quite similar to Vizquel’s best – above average bat with excellent defence), Crawford B, Baez, Story, Tatis Jr (apologies if I have missed anyone).

These are also active shortstops who have had multiple seasons with a better fWAR than Vizquel’s second best: Seager (5), Simmons (3), Bichette (2), Anderson (2), Taylor (2), Andrus (4).

Elvis Andrus’s 2022 season was better than all but one of Vizquel’s 24 seasons, by fWAR.

I may have been able to find more, but pretty much every shortstop I looked up who has stuck around the league (either at SS or as super utility) have had seasons as good as Vizquel’s second best – Enrique Hernandez (not sure how much SS he played, but I think he’s played some) Willy Adames, Jeremy Pena, Ha-Seong Kim, JP Crawford have all had a season about as good.

I know this is a bit of a cherry picked example – but Vizquel was not a great player. He had an exceptionally long career, but I don’t think that should be enough to make the HoF.

PhilMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Hang on, I’m sorry because I’ve just seen this. Who the fuck intentionally walks Elvis Andrus in 2021? It happened twice!

Though Vizquel was intentionally walked 9 times in 2008 – age 41, and with a wRC+ of 37 that year – because I assume he was batting ahead of the pitcher.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  Phil

Even Paul DeJong has had a better season than Vizquel’s 2nd best by WAR.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  AGC

While I’m sure this is satire & people argue Andruw Jones DV incident above, let me take the chance to remind everyone of the real creep on this year’s ballot.

If 1/10th of what Vizquel is alleged to have done to a disabled batboy is true, then he could be a combo of Ozzie Smith’s defense, Derek Jeter’s offense & Rickey Henderson’s speed & I wouldn’t vote for him to make the HOF. Just sickening.

DBRunsMember since 2025
3 years ago

Appreciate the “who is this year’s Grady Sizemore” commentary. I think it’s the mark of a pretty remarkable career to even get your name on the ballot. Was curious to know if there were any glaring omissions from the newcomers.

3cardmontyMember since 2025
3 years ago
Reply to  DBRuns

I remain irrationally upset that Javier Vazquez never made the ballot. Literally a borderline HOFer. Granted the BBWAA would never vote him in but leaving him off the ballot entirely was just insulting.

Youppi!
3 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Oui oui. he with 53 WAR.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  3cardmonty

Good point. Can a player appear on the ballot after their first year of eligibility?

jtricheyMember since 2021
3 years ago

I think ultimately the Astros scandal will not have an impact on Beltran for the hall. I don’t think he will get in his first year, but I also don’t think he would have gotten in first year if there were no Astro scandal. I picture Beltran to have a Jeff Bagwell type of course and get in in 3 or 4 years.

MikeD
3 years ago
Reply to  jtrichey

Yes. I had Beltran as a slow-burn Hall candidate before the 2017 scandal. One of those players that enough voters will need convincing about, or simply enough voters will use the 10 year ballot to confirm their beliefs. He’ll get dinged in year one, but his candidacy will eventually happen. I simply don’t know if that means three years or 10 years.

PC1970Member since 2024
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

Agreed. He’s clearly deserving,but, one of those guys (like Rolen, ironically) who didn’t have one identifying thing that made him great.

He didn’t hit .330, he didn’t hit 40 HR/yr..but, would hit .280 with a .350 OBP, hit 30 HR, steal 25 bases with good efficiency & play a Gold Glove CF. In fact, other then tying in games played in 2002, he never lead the league in ANY offensive stat. It’s tough for some to realize greatness in a package of “above average at everything, but, not great at anything”.

& his blown out knee in 2009 killed his speed, though he remained a dangerous hitter as he bounced around SF/STL/NYY/Tex/Hou as a corner OF/DH.

Really, his most memorable thing is his post season success with Houston where he hit 8 HR in the NLDS/NLCS (but, they lost anyway) & then his K vs Wainwright in 2006 to end the NLCS, (despite the fact he hit 3 HR & had a 1.054 OPS in that series & probably would have been NLCS MVP if the Mets had won).

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  PC1970

Beltran is arguably one of the Top 5 switch hitters in MLB history, though, while the others are either in the Hall (Mantle, Murray, Chipper Jones) or ineligible (Rose).

Last edited 3 years ago by Lanidrac
airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

That’s…kind of irrelevant.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

In the era he played in, I’d argue it’s actually quite relevant. He played during the rise and peak of the *OOGY relievers. If nothing else, he gets a tiny credit for preventing a bunch of slow managerial trots.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago

I would like Jones, Beltrán and Rolen to make it. Others..,not so much

SenorGato
3 years ago

Beltran’s my favorite player, how I’d draw them up, and very very worthy of the Hall

Also also I will care about the players stealing signs when the owners stop cheating America out of tax dollars. One is infinitely more damaging to the chil’ren

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  SenorGato

Like 40% of your posts on a baseball analytics website turn into some sort of anti-rich, anti-capitalism, political BS.

Maybe try Reddit?

Philip ChristyMember since 2026
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

Okay but also fuck the rich and fuck capitalism

miltonfriedman
3 years ago

Until you scientifically prove that “character” has a positive correlation with team success, character is irrelevant.

Jason BMember since 2017
3 years ago
Reply to  miltonfriedman

…except it’s literally in the HOF voting instructions. You may not like it being there; it may have no business being there (reasonable minds may differ on that part); yet there it is all the same.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

I think it could have been worded such that it leaves space for Barry Bonds and Buck O’Neill and not as a potentially disqualifying morality test. Glass Houses and all that

Last edited 3 years ago by Ivan_Grushenko
tomerafan
3 years ago
Reply to  Jason B

But that’s not entirely true. The character clause appears to have been written to put a thumb on the scale for players with good character, rather than a punitive clause to keep people out. Modern morality has turned the use of it into a selective disqualifier which was not the original intent.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  tomerafan

Maybe, but how do you know what the original intent was?

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  miltonfriedman

I personally would like to see “character” used more to boost candidacies than downgrade them. It’s not only about “team success”. It’s also about promoting the sport. It’s why I’d support Buck O’Neill and Jim Kaat even though they weren’t really deserving purely based on playing statistics.

Mike NMN
3 years ago

It’s good to see some of the PEDS-tainted players off this ballot and (in some cases) now on a different one. If “institutional” baseball wants Bonds and Clemens in, so be it. The sheer volume of votes they were getting (even though not enough to gain admission) was distracting from the rest of the ballot. It’s also good to get Ortiz out of the equation. Manfred, for whatever reason, gave an out for enough voters on the fence to get him in so Ortiz is not the reference point for whether a PEDS user should be in. This clears away a lot of debris and allows people to look at the ballot in a more objective way. In truth, it’s got a lot of quality players but not a lot of slam dunks.

David Klein
3 years ago

So if Beltran gets in he probably goes in with a blank hat like others have even though he had his best years as a Met as he had a 129 OPS+ as a Mets with mostly excellent defense Vs a 111 OPS+ as a Royal. The reason why he probably goes in with a blank hat is because he was fired by the Wilpons after the sign stealing scandal. I really wonder if he gets in the first ballot but he’ll eventually get in and I really hope Rolen gets in too.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

Maybe if the Wilpons had any say about the decision, but it shouldn’t be a factor. Only rarely has the decision been so decisive as to require a blank cap, and that’s not the case here. If he gets it, it is extremely likely to be as a Met.

Now Scott Rolen is an interesting case. Once he gets in (and I’m sure he eventually will get in), he could very well wind up with that blank cap, as he had similar longevity and accomplishments as a Phillie and a Cardinal, yet it didn’t end well for him with either team.

David Klein
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Why I say he might opt for a blank cap is bitterness over getting fired as manager though that was obviously a different ownership group.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

The player no longer gets to make that decision unilaterally. While he does still get some say in it, it’s the Hall of Fame that makes the decision now.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Thanks Wade Boggs!

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I think Scott Rolen might actually prefer to be not elected than having a Phillies cap on his plaque.

It seems pretty cut and dry that that case can go either way, and you’d give him the choice.

MikeD
3 years ago
Reply to  David Klein

Either the Mets or the Royals would make sense regarding the Hall cap. He played a good portion of his peak years with the Mets, but he established himself as a Royal, and the difference in games played, seasons and PA between the Mets and Royals are negligible, basically razor thin. Since he was signed and developed by the Royals, and spent nearly 10 seasons with the orignization, the Hall would absolutely seek his input on which cap to wear, and no one would blink an eye if he went in as a Royal. Many fans, myself included, often identify a player by his original team where he initially made his name.

So the real question is what does Beltran want? The Mets did not treat him well at times, bad mouthing him in the media, and giving him questionable medical advice, which required him to go outside the organization for surgery. Vintage Wilpon insanity. Mets fans have also at times had an uneasy relationship with him, many still pissed he didn’t swing at Wainwright’s great curve. Add in his firing as manager, and it’s fair to wonder how he feels about the Mets. It is new ownership, but that’s a double-edged sword. He has no connection to Cohen.

Bottom line, he’ll have final say on whichever hat is on his plaque, be it the Mets, Royals or no logo. This is not a standard case where the Hall simply picks. He played seven seasons with both teams, there is about 100 PA difference, and exactly one AB difference between his Mets and Royals career.

Last edited 3 years ago by MikeD
sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  MikeD

Clearly, he goes in with a Yankee cap. Duh.

rhdx
3 years ago

The HOF is a museum, so it really doesn’t matter, but the fact that Ortiz is in while others connected to PEDs before it was against the rules can’t get in is truly a shame. He is marginal at best to begin with, and most certainly used PEDs.

TKDCMember since 2016
3 years ago
Reply to  rhdx

No, he’s about to get to the bottom of this. Let’s just give him a little more time.

Lanidrac
3 years ago
Reply to  rhdx

It doesn’t matter that there was no enforcement. It was still against U.S. criminal law at the time players like McGwire and Bonds were using them, and they still used them to gain an unfair advantage over the competition no matter how many others were also using them. As such, both the character and integrity clauses apply equally compared to the players who were actually suspended.

Also, Ortiz’s amazing offensive numbers are absolutely deserving despite his lack of defensive value. It’s really only about whether you believe in the flimsy survey testing evidence, and if you do whether or not all of the PED-connected players should be kept out via the integrity and character clauses.

Brian McMember since 2020
3 years ago

I find both Andy Pettitte and Mark Buerhle to be interesting cases. They both have very similar overall career numbers (strangely similar, in fact), but Pettitte had a higher peak, while Buerhle was more consistent over his career.

Both are probably a bit short for the HOF, although I’d argue Pettitte’s post season numbers could give him a boost, and I’d choose a higher peak over consistency.

Youppi!
3 years ago
Reply to  Brian Mc

Buerhle was already in the 4th inning before I finished the article. I just want him to get elected so he can have a 3 min speech and retire the side.

Thomas Madigan
3 years ago
Reply to  Brian Mc

I wouldn’t vote for either, but it would be really easy to write their HOF plaques.

sogoodlooking
3 years ago

Is it worse, that Rolen had to wait this long after such an absurdly unpromising start, or better, that he now looks likely to make it in?

“…and a 2012 arrest for a domestic abuse charge. Voters don’t always rule out candidates for such matters,…”

—As well they shouldn’t, especially given the charges were dropped.

Last edited 3 years ago by sogoodlooking
Thomas Madigan
3 years ago

Jeff Kent is going to get in eventually. It’ll be an era committee if not the BBWAA. And … they won’t be wrong.

airforce21oneMember since 2026
3 years ago

Harold Baines.

/mic drop

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
3 years ago
Reply to  airforce21one

You are a troll, aren’t you?