2023 Trade Value: Nos. 21-30

As is tradition at FanGraphs, we’re using the lead-up to the trade deadline to take stock of the top 50 players in baseball by trade value. For a more detailed introduction to this year’s exercise, as well as a look at the players who fell just short of the top 50, be sure to read the Introduction and Honorable Mentions piece, which can be found in the widget above.
For those of you who have been reading the Trade Value Series the last few seasons, the format should look familiar. For every player, you’ll see a table with the player’s projected five-year WAR from 2024-2028, courtesy of Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS projections. The table will also include the player’s guaranteed money, if any, the year through which their team has contractual control of them, last year’s rank (if applicable), and then projections, contract status, and age for each individual season through 2028 (if the player is under contract or team control for those seasons). Last year’s rank includes a link to the relevant 2022 post. Thanks are due to Sean Dolinar for his technical wizardry. At the bottom of the page, there is a grid showing all of the players who have been ranked up to this point.
At this point, we’re into the good stuff. All of these players are hugely valuable, and few are likely to actually get traded. That doesn’t mean this is purely theoretical, but it’s something approaching that. Like most lists, ordinal rankings can be deceiving; there isn’t an equal value gap separating every spot on the list. I’ve tried to mention where there are large gaps, but don’t read too much into someone being 26th instead of 23rd. There just isn’t much difference between those two spots, and both players are a lot more valuable than the guy ranked 40th.
With that out of the way, let’s get to the next batch of players.
| Five-Year WAR | 17.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2025 |
| Previous Rank | #11 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 27 | 3.8 | Arb 2 |
| 2025 | 28 | 3.8 | Arb 3 |
Another year, another great hitting season from Tucker. You know what you’re getting with him at this point: He rarely strikes out, takes a bunch of walks, and hits for a little bit of average and a lot of power. He’s a perennial 30-homer type, and he’ll swipe 20 bags to boot. That’s a really valuable player regardless of where he plays, and there’s little reason to think he’ll do anything but hit over his last two and a half years of team control. Also, he’s somehow only making $5 million this year despite back-to-back seasons posting just under 5 WAR, so you’re getting huge bang for your buck in those years.
There’s some cause for concern defensively. Every defensive system you can imagine thinks Tucker is putting up a clunker this year, and he’s not very fast despite great instincts on the basepaths. I think he’s probably about average in right field, whereas a few years ago I thought there was a chance he’d end up as a perennial Gold Glover. You’re going to play him regardless of his defense, of course, so it’s more a note than a true weakness, but you have to pick nits when you’re talking about players this good.
Tucker’s production in an outfield corner is slightly less interesting to me than if someone had the same WAR output at a harder-to-fill position, but that’s really just a tiebreaker rather than a reason not to like him. I don’t have many negatives to note here. He’s going to hit a ton and he’s not going to kill you on defense. The ship has probably sailed on him adding a ton of power and turning into one of the best five bats in the game, but top 15? I completely buy it.
The point of all of this is to say that Tucker is great, and that everyone from here on out is a high-probability stud. If he had another year of team control remaining, he’d be pushing the top 10.
| Five-Year WAR | 32.5 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2024 |
| Previous Rank | #6 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 25 | 6.5 | Arb 3 |
I initially had Soto at the very low end of what I’d consider the clearly great players (if you’ll recall from yesterday, I think there’s a big gap between no. 33 and no. 34 on the list). It’s a timing thing; he hits free agency after 2024, and he’s certainly not cheap. He’s a subpar defender (not as bad as he showed last year, but below average for sure). Those are all real negatives. But wow, can he hit.
Soto detractors will rush to tell you that he’s had two straight down years. That’s kind of true… but he’s also a top-10 hitter in baseball during that time frame. ZiPS projects him as the second-best overall player over the next five years, behind only Shohei Ohtani. Not hitter — player, full stop. He walks more than he strikes out, hits for power, and somehow doesn’t turn 25 until October. If you’re looking for someone who’s a great hitter right now, he obviously qualifies. If you’re looking for someone whose statistical markers suggest that he’ll continue to be a great hitter, there’s no one better. Take it from ZiPS.
I don’t think Seattle would trade Gilbert for Soto, so maybe he should be below Gilbert. But I don’t think the Padres would trade Soto for Gilbert either, which makes the whole thing more confusing. Suffice it to say that even one year of elite hitting, with a high floor and gargantuan ceiling, is in high demand. When teams talk about consolidating prospect capital or any similar business-world euphemisms, a Soto-level player is what they’re hoping to red paper clip into a house.
In a year’s time, Soto won’t be on this list because he’ll be an impending free agent. He already wouldn’t fetch what he did in trade last year, one of the richest prospect packages in recent memory. That’s time for you, always marching on. But if you’re wondering whether teams will pay a lot to get a star for a few years, Soto offers an answer in the affirmative.
| Five-Year WAR | 20.6 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2029 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 24 | 3.7 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 25 | 4.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2026 | 26 | 4.3 | Pre-Arb |
| 2027 | 27 | 4.4 | Arb 1 |
| 2028 | 28 | 4.1 | Arb 2 |
I’m a pretty simple guy, at least when it comes to my talent evaluation skills. If you hit at the major league level and play acceptable defense at a tough position, I’m interested. McLain combines power and patience, and showed off those skills even as he struck out an uncomfortable amount in the minors last year. But he’s improved since then, as young players often do, and is now making contact at an average rate for a big leaguer, let alone one with pop who also plays shortstop.
How highly you value McLain comes down to two things: How much you’re willing to rely on projection systems (get a load of those ZiPS, jeez), and how you parse different skill sets in a small sample. No one expects McLain’s BABIP to stay quite so high, for example, so that’s a mark against his future offensive production. On the other hand, players with his chase and contact rates don’t usually strike out that much, and they usually walk more than he has so far. Players who make a lot of hard elevated contact tend to slug a lot. Defense is even trickier; I feel pretty confident that McLain can stick at shortstop, but there’s a lot of extrapolation and trust in that viewpoint.
I see McLain as an above-average hitter going forward, though probably with a different shape to his production than what he’s displayed in the majors so far. A double-digit walk rate looks likely, as do fewer strikeouts, but his average will probably still take a turn for the worse. Above-average hitters who play a capable shortstop and won’t hit free agency until after the 2029 season are few and far between, and I think teams know it.
To be clear, I don’t think “above-average shortstop bat” is McLain’s ceiling. If you’re this good at 23, there’s always a chance of unlocking another level. That, combined with the floor of a plus regular, sounds great to me.
Maybe I’m too willing to believe in McLain’s floor based on two months of major league playing time. Maybe he’ll suddenly fall apart, though I think the patience and power alone make that outcome unlikely. Even if he strikes out too much and doesn’t make up for it with a bunch of walks, I think there’s 25-homer power in his bat. My evaluation here is based on that: I think there’s a high likelihood of McLain being a good player and a decent chance that he ends up a great one.
| Five-Year WAR | 18.8 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2028 |
| Previous Rank | – |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 23 | 3.0 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 24 | 3.6 | Pre-Arb |
| 2026 | 25 | 3.9 | Arb 1 |
| 2027 | 26 | 4.2 | Arb 2 |
| 2028 | 27 | 4.1 | Arb 3 |
I got a lot of different responses when my various sounding boards ranked Volpe, McLain, and Zach Neto as 2023 shortstop debuts. Some people wanted them all in a tier. Some had Volpe first by himself. Some thought Volpe didn’t belong with the other two. In the end, I think Volpe’s additional prospect shine makes up for McLain’s thus-far superior major league performance, and that the two are more or less indistinguishable from a trade value perspective.
In his rookie season, Volpe is already a menace on the basepaths, and he’s on track to finish with 20-25 homers as well. Nothing in his batted ball data suggests that he should be should be running an especially low BABIP, particularly given that he’s hitting more line drives and grounders than he did in the minors. If you’re looking for an offensive comparison in type, think Marcus Semien: A hitter who makes the most out of middling raw power by lifting and pulling the ball, though Semien decided to stop striking out in recent years, a trick Volpe clearly hasn’t mastered.
I’m a little worried about Volpe’s swinging strike rate in the big leagues, but I’m cutting him some slack given his meteoric rise through the minors. He’s making far more contact in recent weeks, and he’s trending upwards in terms of his overall offense too. Defensively, he plays better than his speed and arm strength because of tremendous instincts and actions, and I think he’s a decent bet to stick at shortstop for that reason.
One thing I’m never quite sure of is how to weigh recent debuts who are merely treading water in the majors. Volpe would absolutely not be this high on the list if the Yankees had kept him in the minors, even if he were tearing up Triple-A. He’s obviously not having an incredible season, though he does enough in multiple facets of the game to be tracking fairly well overall. That creates some cognitive dissonance: Is it better to fail in the majors than succeed in the minors?
In this case, I decided that Volpe’s pedigree earns him a spot here. Heck, he’s not even exactly “failing,” no matter what your friendly neighborhood Yankees fan tells you. But more than any of the other rookies on the list, I’m giving Volpe the benefit of the doubt because both scouts and models love him. If he isn’t performing meaningfully better in a year’s time, he’ll drop considerably. That performance versus expectation gap is always a tough tightrope to walk. I’m definitely not confident I managed it here, and I’m going to have my eye on Volpe and players like him when I review this year’s list going forward.
| Five-Year WAR | 15.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2028 |
| Previous Rank | HM |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 26 | 3.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 27 | 3.1 | Pre-Arb |
| 2026 | 28 | 3.1 | Arb 1 |
| 2027 | 29 | 3.0 | Arb 2 |
| 2028 | 30 | 2.8 | Arb 3 |
There’s a lot to like in Kirby’s performance in the majors so far. He barely walks anyone, but it’s not because he’s just lobbing in fastballs with no respect for opposing hitters. He has spectacular fastball command, which he uses to dot the zone without surrendering meatballs. That leads to low pitch counts that let him get deep into starts, and he keeps the bases clean enough that home runs aren’t a huge worry.
I’m skeptical that ZiPS has Kirby pegged — it sees his early-career innings and thinks he won’t deliver workhorse volume. I’ll take the over on that, and I’m maybe one season away from thinking he’s Luis Castillo part two. He won’t reach free agency until after the 2028 season, and arbitration salaries are such a bargain that he’ll deliver huge surplus value even if he misses most of two seasons with injury.
I’m generally a fan of getting the pitchers who are the very best right this minute and worrying about the future in the future. Time is undefeated, and no pitcher is a great bet to be healthy and effective in six years’ time. Let’s put it this way: there are eight(ish) pitchers ahead of Kirby on the list, and I’d only take him over one of them if my only goal was to win a game tomorrow. But he’s going to be a Mariner for an eon and my perception is that command-first guys have high floors. Kirby’s general archetype isn’t the one I’d favor if I were acquiring pitching for my team, but I think he’s the very best example of it, which explains his placement here.
| Five-Year WAR | 34.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2023 |
| Previous Rank | #26 |
“I have a hard time wrapping my head around Ohtani being this high.” “He should either be number one, or not on the top 50.” “I think teams would give up more than this for him.” Time after time, Ohtani was the player folks most wanted to talk about while I was gathering feedback for this series. He’s the best player in the world, and if he’s moved, his tenure with his new team will be over in the blink of an eye. In the history of the Trade Value Series, we’ve never had a rental ranked in the top 50 and we probably won’t ever again. Even our tableizer can’t handle Ohtani; you can’t build rows for future years of team-controlled value when no such future years are locked in yet.
Ranking him 25th is somewhat arbitrary; he doesn’t operate on the same axis as anyone else in this exercise. All the production/time/money calculations I do to help determine trade value don’t work for him. Trading for Ohtani isn’t about counting up wins and dollars; you’re obviously going to be giving up more than you get back. It’s about getting a global superstar for your playoff push, getting a huge influx of fans and international attention, and spending four months trying to convince a two-way wonder to accept a huge pile of loot to play for you until he retires. It’s about the chance to have your team’s logo on his cap when his plaque goes up in Cooperstown.
Is Ohtani going to favor the first team to take him to the MLB postseason when he’s choosing his long-term fate? I don’t know! GMs don’t know. Owners don’t know either, but they might be willing to find out. This isn’t like trading for Juan Soto; my friends who don’t follow baseball have never heard of Juan Soto. Ohtani is bigger than baseball, here or anywhere else; he’d make a Yankees hat more famous than Jay-Z did.
Most front offices wouldn’t consider it. It’s irresponsible in the long run if your goal is to win the most baseball games while expending the least amount of resources. Just wait three months and pitch him in free agency. But I think Ohtani is a big enough deal to the game as a whole that owners, not baseball ops people, will be making this decision, and the chances that one of them says “Screw it, go get him,” are non-zero. Will a few 55 FV prospects stand between a billionaire and their chance at history? We’re about to find out.
Or maybe we aren’t. Arte Moreno might not be willing to give up on Ohtani, even if he could get a king’s ransom in return. Again, he’s Shohei Freaking Ohtani, the only one there will ever be, and even if he’s done wearing an Angels uniform after the season ends, he’s going to pack a lot of folks into the ballpark in the meantime.
Let’s assume there is a trade, though, because that’s more fun. I can guarantee you two things. First, the team that trades for him will give up a prospect haul that would make Eric Longenhagen giggle uncontrollably, a return far in excess of what any reasonable valuation system would suggest for a rental player. Second, the fans and employees of that team won’t care. They will have gotten Ohtani! Very few teams in the history of baseball will be able to say that when it’s all said and done.
| Five-Year WAR | 16.1 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2025 |
| Previous Rank | #45 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 28 | 3.8 | Arb 2 |
| 2025 | 29 | 3.5 | Arb 3 |
In the past calendar year, Zac Gallen has been the best pitcher on the planet. He has a 1.49 ERA over that span. Prefer FIP? His is 2.07. He’s allowing a .207 OBP, for crying out loud. If you want a pitcher for right this minute, Gallen has a strong argument to be the guy, even if his incandescent second half of last year is doing some heavy lifting here.
He doesn’t walk anyone. He consistently strikes guys out. His four-seamer carves hitters up, his curveball is vomit-inducing, and he has three other pitches to add to the mix. Maybe he’s an adjustment away from getting figured out, maybe the spell will wear off any minute, but why in the world would you bet on that?
If there’s anything to dislike here, it’s Gallen’s streakiness. He’s been one of the best pitchers in the game this year, and he’s also allowed five earned runs three different times. Sometimes his stuff seems to just abandon him, or his command disappears for a start. If you’ve watched Gallen in the past year, the odds are good that he looked even better than his bonkers numbers, because he’s squeezed a lot of his bad results into a handful of games.
That doesn’t matter enough for me to change my valuation. If you want someone you can plug into the top of your rotation through the end of 2025, Gallen is a tremendous option. Three postseasons worth of him could be the difference between short Octobers and championship parades. The Diamondbacks aren’t going to soft sell this year or pivot to the future. They’re in the thick of things right now, and they need an ace starter as much as the next contender. But if they were to suddenly change directions, you can bet that teams would line up a dazzling array of prospects in an attempt to add him.
| Five-Year WAR | 22.7 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2028 |
| Previous Rank | #HM |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 22 | 3.5 | Pre-Arb |
| 2025 | 23 | 4.2 | Pre-Arb |
| 2026 | 24 | 4.7 | Arb 1 |
| 2027 | 25 | 5.0 | Arb 2 |
| 2028 | 26 | 5.3 | Arb 3 |
I thought I’d get pushback here. Alvarez is my kind of catcher, one who looks better statistically than his visual evaluation would suggest. ZiPS and I both love him, and I thought we’d be the high person (or computer) out of everyone I talked to. But uh, not so much. My ranking was met with nods and thumbs ups, not confusion.
The value proposition here is pretty obvious: We’re talking about a catcher who hits like a good DH. He thumps the ball when he connects, though a high-effort swing means he’ll always run high strikeout rates. But oh, that power! If he weren’t limited to catcher-level playing time, I’d project 40-homer seasons in his future. That’s comically above the bar at the game’s toughest defensive position.
Defense is where you’d expect to find concerns. Alvarez is a mountain of a man, built like a brick wall (my apologies for mixing metaphors, but I’ve been writing a lot of these blurbs and I’m getting a little punchy). He’s been great so far behind the plate, though. Statcast thinks he’s an above-average blocker. He grades out as an excellent receiver across every system. His greatest defensive weakness thus far is controlling the running game, but it’s a slight minus, not a disaster. Forget DH-only; he’s a plus defensive catcher at the moment.
Will he still be one in three years? Will he still be one in 2028, his last year before hitting free agency? It’s an open question, and a half-season’s defensive statistics don’t offer a definitive answer. He doesn’t have much room to get slower or less athletic while still standing up to the daily rigors of the job. A drop from catcher to DH wouldn’t torpedo Alvarez’s value completely, but it would be a massive hit. He clearly wouldn’t be on the list as a DH.
That risk is embedded in my evaluation here. If Alvarez were a lock to stay behind the plate, I’d bump him up even further. I’m always looking for a reason to get behind a catcher who can hit, which explains why I can’t quit Alejandro Kirk. I want Alvarez if I can’t have the three catchers who will appear higher on this list – Will Smith, Sean Murphy, and Adley Rutschman. That doesn’t mean some of the catchers I left on the honorable mention list – Patrick Bailey in particular, but also Jonah Heim and William Contreras – can’t crash the party. But I just like the total package more with Alvarez. I have a lot of certainty that his bat will play, and the early returns on his defense are impressive.
| Five-Year WAR | 15.5 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2025 |
| Previous Rank | #28 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 30 | 4.0 | Arb 2 |
| 2025 | 31 | 3.5 | Arb 3 |
Every year, Valdez gets better. If you exclude a brief cameo in 2018, he’s improved his ERA each year of his career. He used to walk too many hitters; now he’s a command artist. He didn’t strike enough guys out because of all the sinkers he threw; now he’s near the top of the league in strikeout rate. A finger injury before the 2021 season raised durability questions; he responded by topping 200 innings in 2022, and he might do it again this year.
The argument against Valdez as one of the best handful of pitchers in baseball comes down to familiarity. This career arc, this pitch mix, it isn’t how elite pitchers generally operate. I think that’s small-minded thinking, though. I care more about a pitcher’s peripherals than how they get to them. He might build his game around a pitch that’s inhospitable to strikeouts, but his two main secondaries are so nasty that they make up for it. He uses his sinker to get ahead and then deftly pivots when the situation changes.
Like Gallen, Valdez will be around for two more campaigns after this one. Like Gallen, he’d fit snugly at the top of any rotation. I have slots 26-20 on this list in a similar tier, in fact. This ranking is just a preference statement within that tier: I like Valdez’s durability and trajectory quite a lot, enough that I’d take him over the other pitchers who have broadly similar value.
| Five-Year WAR | 20.2 |
| Guaranteed Dollars | – |
| Team Control Through | 2025 |
| Previous Rank | #17 |
| Year | Age | Projected WAR | Contract Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2024 | 29 | 5.0 | Arb 2 |
| 2025 | 30 | 4.7 | Arb 3 |
I hate to say it, but I’m fresh out of Will Smith jokes. I won’t try to convince you that he’s an actor/rapper/baseball player, or even a catcher/pitcher. Smith has outlived all those quips by being one of the best catchers in baseball year after year, and 2023 is his best campaign yet. He’s joined the exclusive more-walks-than-strikeouts club while continuing to hit for power. Again, he’s doing all this while playing the most demanding position on the field.
Catchers routinely put up less WAR than other position players thanks to the rigors of the job. That seems like it might be a cap on their value, but there’s a countervailing force: It’s really hard to find good catching. When Smith isn’t playing, the drop-off to Austin Barnes is precipitous. Catchers aren’t just valuable for the raw runs they score and help prevent; they’re also valuable because if they weren’t doing it, the next man up would probably be a lot worse. You can’t just plug in a utility infielder or fourth outfielder back there on their days off.
Smith’s 5-WAR projection for next year is even more outrageous in that context; there have only been 20 5-WAR catcher seasons in the past decade, and most of those were driven by outlandish framing numbers (Yadier Molina was a +21 framer in 2013, while Jonathan Lucroy was +34 the same year). There have only been three such seasons since 2019. The catchers who put up campaigns that good these days are the very best of the best.
Smith belongs in that tier. If I were building a team for this year and this year only, I’d take him by a hair over Rutschman and Murphy. He’s really, really good. There’s only one player ahead of Smith on this list with similar team control remaining – everyone else has four or more years left after 2023. That player is the very next slot on the list – but you’ll have to wait until tomorrow to find out who it is. Dang arbitrary cutoffs.
| Rk | Pv | Player | Age | 2024 | 2025 | 2026 | 2027 | 2028 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 21 | 17 | Will Smith | 28 | 5.0 Arb 2 |
4.7 Arb 3 |
|||
| 22 | 28 | Framber Valdez | 29 | 4.0 Arb 2 |
3.5 Arb 3 |
|||
| 23 | HM | Francisco Alvarez | 21 | 3.5 Pre-Arb |
4.2 Pre-Arb |
4.7 Arb 1 |
5.0 Arb 2 |
5.3 Arb 3 |
| 24 | 45 | Zac Gallen | 27 | 3.8 Arb 2 |
3.5 Arb 3 |
|||
| 25 | 26 | Shohei Ohtani | 28 | |||||
| 26 | HM | George Kirby | 25 | 3.1 Pre-Arb |
3.1 Pre-Arb |
3.1 Arb 1 |
3.0 Arb 2 |
2.8 Arb 3 |
| 27 | – | Anthony Volpe | 22 | 3.0 Pre-Arb |
3.6 Pre-Arb |
3.9 Arb 1 |
4.2 Arb 2 |
4.1 Arb 3 |
| 28 | – | Matt McLain | 23 | 3.7 Pre-Arb |
4.1 Pre-Arb |
4.3 Pre-Arb |
4.4 Arb 1 |
4.1 Arb 2 |
| 29 | 6 | Juan Soto | 24 | 6.5 Arb 3 |
||||
| 30 | 11 | Kyle Tucker | 26 | 3.8 Arb 2 |
3.8 Arb 3 |
|||
| 31 | 16 | Ozzie Albies | 26 | 4.2 $7.0 M |
4.0 $7.0 M |
3.7 $7.0 M |
3.5 $7.0 M |
|
| 32 | – | Luis Castillo | 30 | 4.2 $24.1 M |
3.8 $24.1 M |
3.3 $24.1 M |
2.8 $24.1 M |
2.3 $25.0 M |
| 33 | HM | Logan Gilbert | 26 | 3.3 Pre-Arb |
3.1 Arb 1 |
2.9 Arb 2 |
2.6 Arb 3 |
|
| 34 | 50 | Randy Arozarena | 28 | 3.5 Arb 2 |
3.2 Arb 3 |
2.7 Arb 4 |
||
| 35 | 9 | Vladimir Guerrero Jr. | 24 | 3.0 Arb 2 |
3.3 Arb 3 |
|||
| 36 | 14 | Bobby Witt Jr. | 23 | 3.2 Pre-Arb |
3.5 Arb 1 |
3.6 Arb 2 |
3.7 Arb 3 |
|
| 37 | 18 | Jeremy Peña | 25 | 2.7 Pre-Arb |
2.8 Arb 1 |
2.7 Arb 2 |
2.5 Arb 3 |
|
| 38 | – | Zach Neto | 22 | 1.6 Pre-Arb |
1.8 Pre-Arb |
1.9 Pre-Arb |
2.1 Arb 1 |
2.2 Arb 2 |
| 39 | 27 | Alejandro Kirk | 24 | 3.1 Arb 1 |
3.1 Arb 2 |
3.1 Arb 3 |
||
| 40 | – | Hunter Brown | 24 | 2.3 Pre-Arb |
2.3 Pre-Arb |
2.3 Arb 1 |
2.2 Arb 2 |
2.2 Arb 3 |
| 41 | HM | Hunter Greene | 23 | 2.5 $3.3 M |
2.6 $6.3 M |
2.7 $8.3 M |
2.8 $15.3 M |
2.7 $16.3 M |
| 42 | 38 | Oneil Cruz | 24 | 2.1 Pre-Arb |
2.4 Pre-Arb |
2.6 Arb 1 |
2.9 Arb 2 |
2.5 Arb 3 |
| 43 | HM | Jordan Walker | 21 | 0.3 Pre-Arb |
0.5 Pre-Arb |
0.6 Arb 1 |
0.7 Arb 2 |
0.8 Arb 3 |
| 44 | 33 | Cedric Mullins | 28 | 3.4 Arb 2 |
2.9 Arb 3 |
|||
| 45 | – | Joe Ryan | 27 | 2.4 Pre-Arb |
2.2 Arb 1 |
1.9 Arb 2 |
1.6 Arb 3 |
|
| 46 | – | Spencer Steer | 25 | 2.1 Pre-Arb |
2.1 Pre-Arb |
2.0 Arb 1 |
1.9 Arb 2 |
1.8 Arb 3 |
| 47 | – | Lars Nootbaar | 25 | 2.3 Pre-Arb |
2.5 Arb 1 |
2.5 Arb 2 |
2.2 Arb 3 |
|
| 48 | 15 | Ke’Bryan Hayes | 26 | 2.5 $7.0 M |
2.5 $7.0 M |
2.1 $7.0 M |
2.0 $7.0 M |
1.7 $8.0 M |
| 49 | – | Josh Jung | 25 | 2.6 Pre-Arb |
2.6 Pre-Arb |
2.6 Arb 1 |
2.4 Arb 2 |
2.2 Arb 3 |
| 50 | – | James Wood | 20 | 0.9 Pre-Arb |
1.4 Pre-Arb |
1.9 Pre-Arb |
2.3 Arb 1 |
2.7 Arb 2 |
Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.
“I hate to say it, but I’m fresh out of Will Smith jokes” may be the best sentence ever written on Fangraphs.
He hits with punch is too easy, isn’t it?
He’s not a slap hitter.
Etc, Etc.
“fresh” out of Will Smith jokes…
(insert McBain *that’s the joke* GIF)
The difference between Will Smith and the other guys is that Will Smith makes the Dodgers uniform look good.
“He (Alvarez) clearly wouldn’t be on the list as a DH.”
Wouldn’t he be Spencer Steer 🙂
…that’s not fair to Alvarez’s bat, haha
As much as I think Alvarez will probably improve far more than Steer (he is four full years younger than Steer), Steer does have a higher xwOBA than Alvarez right now. So while it’s fun to think about Alvarez blasting 45 homers a year I wouldn’t say it’s guaranteed he’s a better bat.
Alvarez’s xwoba is dinged by a weirdly low LD%. Given how fickle LD% is year over year, you’d have to buy that he’s a true talent 12.5% LD hitter to buy into his current xwoba as being predictive rather than descriptive.
100%. Despite the name, xwOBA is a descriptive stat. It’s a very helpful stat, but should be treated like babip. Context is always necessary.
It’s not designed to be predictive, but it’s not not predictive either.
I’m still waiting for a comprehensive xwOBA explainer!
Fun fact: Zach Neto is only three months older than Anthony Volpe.
Put me down for McLain first and Neto being clearly behind McLain. Anthony Volpe is on the back end of the list / honorable mention border. Volpe has 360 PAs in the majors now and it seems to me like the best case scenario is “untapped potential” which is not all that different than someone like Jordan Walker or Brett Baty, probably ahead of Baty but behind Walker.
Edit: I would probably also put Witt around the same spot as McLain.
I honestly don’t get why Volpe is higher ranked than McLain. Yes, he’s younger by almost two years, but he has clear issues. McLain, meanwhile, both looks more stable and his ceiling now looks at least comparable. And defense actually favors McLain, both in terms of actual production and potential ability. Neto I get ranking lower because he’s been promoted so fast that he now as more MLB PAs than MiLB. But Volpe? His K% literally doubled between AA and AAA. And that increase looks accurate to what he’s doing now. Banking on him making more contact is fair, but even with the power upside I think he’s below McLain.
Of course…when McLain was Volpe’s age, he was K-ing as much in AA as Volpe is now in the majors.
Last year in AA, Volpe hit .183/.298/.345 (79 wRC+, 24.0 K%) over his first 170 PA and .286/.374/.536 over the next 325, before getting his cup of coffee in AAA.
Volpe has been a pro player longer than McLain, though. With more MiLB PA. It’s not difficult to argue that he has more experience despite the age gap.
And while that’s true, McLain has always been more disciplined than Volpe. Volpe is way more aggressive than McLain. It’s not just the numbers, it’s their actions. They have roughly equivalent swinging strike rates, but Volpe has always been more prone to chase than McLain has. And it also shows in their run values against individual pitches. Volpe has been doing his damage almost exclusively against 4-seam fastballs, while getting absolutely torched by sliders. McLain has been able to deal with offspeed and breaking pitches better, even though he’s probably not as good against them as his current numbers suggest. And the xStats back that up as well.
It’s not like the gap between them is massive or anything, but I’d be hesitant to place Volpe in front of McLain. I don’t think I’d move them around much, just flip them.
I mean…I’d have quite a difficult time arguing that 500 MiLB PA makes a cold weather prep bat “more experienced” than a 3 year starter at UCLA from SoCal.
I’d find it impossible, honestly.
Depends on whether you include the 2020 “season” as experience. But I feel that pro PA >>>>> Amateur PA, regardless of the fact that even then, McLain only has about 100 more College + MiLB PA than Volpe has of MiLB PA. In terms of their actual in-game reps, Volpe is about equal.
McClain wasn’t an uber prospect, and 250 PAs into his career he hasn’t shown any real superpowers apart from a 400! BABIP. This is an aggressive ranking, is what I am saying.
Superior fielding, superior contact quality, superior speed, superior arm strength, superior plate discipline… Also, he’s always been a high babip guy. Yeah, .400 isn’t going to continue. But nobody should expect it to crater either. This isn’t far off from his actual performance. Aggressive, yeah. But he’s not unworthy of that given his performance at every level so far.
Also, yes, Volpe has a higher ceiling. But he still looks like a lottery ticket. McLain looks like a more complete player at this point.
And again, it’s not like I’m saying Volpe is far inferior or anything. I just think he and McLain should switch spots xD
Volpe’s a good defensive SS and an elite baserunner, which is why he’s been worth 2 more wins than Walker, despite a 6 week swoon of truly horrific offensive production.
How does Ezequiel Duran compare to these other SS in your mind?
Of course I’m assuming here that Duran could play a decent SS if not blocked by Seager.
As someone who believes in the power of chicken parm…I have a hard time putting Volpe this far above Witt, whom I would include above the “cut,” so to speak.
Otherwise, it’s hard to disagree with anything here! Although I do think that every west coast team currently in playoff contention would tell the Angels to pick any three prospects (give or take Salas), if Ohtani becomes available.
You might not need to specify “in contention”, as it’s currently unclear whether Athletics still count as “West Coast” or a “team.”
I’ve completely given up my A’s fanhood. They’re more or less like the Royals or Nationals in how I see them. Sad but true. It really wasn’t that painful. 38 years is a good run for anything
Personally, I’m not letting the greedy billionaires win.
Watching the A’s this season has been like that Seinfeld episode where he’s dating the “two face.” Like today: three 2-run HRs gives them a 6-2 lead after four. Beautiful! Two inning later, you see a 4 in the error column and a 6-5 lead. Yikes!
Volpe shouldn’t be in the top 50. There’s nothing there. If he were traded to another team, without the sentimental (read: marketable) story of the hometown drafted kid yada yada, he’d have been demoted and probably off everyone’s radar in 12 months. Either that or an organization who can actually develop any hitter would instantly make him good.
Yeahhhhhh…I’d be more sympathetic to the Chicken Little crowd if Volpe hadn’t had the exact same May last year, haha.
He’s an eventual second baseman in the next 24 months, not shortstop, with a one-size-fits-all swing that’s already broken again after a hot 3 weeks. He has no elite tools, and the Yankees are so abjectly atrocious at developing hitters that even if there’s upside there, it’s never going to be realized.
Yeahhhhhh…I’d be more sympathetic to the Chicken Little crowd if Volpe hadn’t had the exact same May last year, haha.
Wait so does this mean Austin Riley wasn’t an honorable mention? I can’t imagine he is top 20 (though he did hit two home runs last night).
Riley was on the list last year. In the HM section they list all the players on the list last year who didn’t make it this year. Riley was not listed. Therefore, he is on the list (barring an editing error or something; top 20 is a bit baffling to me too).
It is becoming apparent that the industry consensus on Riley is way, way higher on him than most of us are. I suspect that projections love him; ZiPS has him as a 5-win player for each of 2024 and 2025, and if they’re projecting him to do that for the next 5 years then I totally get it. But I’m also not really sold on that as any kind of average or median outcome, because that would mean 600+ PAs every year, a 140 wRC+, and sticking at third base and it’s probably not credible to assume all three of those are going to continue indefinitely.
He’s had a bit of a strange year in that his contact has been worse, and it seems a lot of people are unworried about that, and his defense has been better (from pretty bad to maybe average), so if the defensive improvements are real and and offensive struggles are a blip, then projecting out 5+ WAR seasons could make sense if you squint a little, I guess?
I am a homer Braves fan and for whatever reason I’ve always felt that Riley’s breakout into or close to the superstar level was tenuous. I am more in the “I hope he doesn’t turn into a pumpkin halfway through this contract” camp than the “he could actually be much better than this deal” camp. Riley’s contract wasn’t like the others the Braves signed. From the start it seemed like a fair deal, not like the steals they got with other players. Would love to hear what Ben is hearing.
I’m just a person at a computer but it looks like Riley’s contact rates this year line up with his 2021-2022 numbers; the only real difference in his plate discipline is he’s taking more called strikes. Appears that his biggest problem has been a failure to barrel – Just 10.8% this year compared to 15.7% last year and 13.3% in 2021. His EV and LA look fine, he’s simply not squaring the ball up as regularly. Even after last night’s outburst, he’s still “only” at 109 wRC+, compared to 142 and 136. He’s got work to do.
Yeah, I meant the quality of his contact.
Riley’s 3B defense has been getting better (he’s a scratch defender this year!), and even at its worst wasn’t been bad enough to put him at risk of moving off.
He’s pretty safely a 4-5 win guy in the 125-130 range.
Yeah but that assumes that the defensive improvement holds and the bat rebounds and he stays healthy for multiple years. And while the chances of any one of those things happening is probably good, the chances that all of those things are going to happen each year for the next five years is not. I like him and maybe the projections are right and I am wrong but there are a bunch of things that need to go right here for him to be in the Top 20 trade value when he’s going to get paid $22M a year or something like that for the next decade.
…while your underlying assumption is that the defense regresses far below anything he’s demonstrated in his career to date, to the point where he has to move off the hot corner.
He’s a similar caliber of defender to guys like Gio Urshela and Eduardo Escobar – he only has worse “DEF” counting stats because he’s an absolutely iron man.
He’s essentially Devers with viable 3B defense…and $10m cheaper.
The case for Austin Riley:
He’s 26.
He’s signed for the next 9 years ($197M) with a 10th year team option ($20M) which would take him to his age 36 season.
He’s been a 5 WAR player the past two seasons, and looks to have a 3-4 WAR season.
He’s improved become an average third baseman defensively.
Even in a down season, he’s on a 32-33 home run pace, with a 109 wRC+, and a 116.1 max exit velocity.
It’s not credible to assume that all three are going to continue indefinitely. Guys gets injured in freak accidents, get into hitting funks, and everyone gets old. But Austin Riley can absolutely destroy a baseball.
That is a skill that ages. If you’re hitting rockets at 25, you’re still probably hitting rockets at 35. Giancarlo Stanton was hitting 120.3 mph rockets when he was 25, and he’s hitting 118.3 mph rockets at 33 (when he can get on the field).
The only third baseman this year with a higher max exit velocity is Jake Burger, and only twelve players total have hit balls with higher max exit velocities this year.
Third basemen who are Riley’s age or younger include Rafael Devers (who is being paid $96.5M more), Ke’Bryan Hayes, Alec Bohm, Isaac Paredes (who is hitting way above his wxOBA), Josh Jung, Gunnar Henderson, and Spencer Steer. Only Devers and Hayes are signed long term.
So will Riley stick at third base? I think the answer is probably at this point. He’d have to be significantly worse defensively to justify a change in position.
Will Riley continue getting 600+ PAs a year? So long as he’s healthy, yes, probably.
Will Riley continue hitting 140 wRC+? Probably, I think. Watching his at-bats this year, he really seems caught up in his own head, letting fastballs down the middle pass him by.
Will they continue until he’s 35? Probably not, but that’s true for most players. If Riley is a 3-4 WAR player each year for the rest of his contract, the contract is probably in the money. And he still has the potential for more 5+ WAR seasons.
This isn’t about whether his contract is going to have positive value. His contract is going to have positive value. He’s going to be good. This is about whether he has Top 20 trade value.
I would think that a third basemen who is projected to have positive value above their 9-10 year contract would have top 20 trade value. Most players with higher trade values could play shortstop.
He’s good, he’s signed for a long time at reasonable cost, so if he was traded, he would bring in a massive haul.
Yep, he’s Devers with better defense, at a 33% discount.
Riley ain’t moving to 1B with Olson signed for another 7 years and they aren’t making him a DH at age 26, so he’s pretty much a 3B for the foreseeable future.
Also, he’s a perfectly fine 3B!
He’s not a good one, but he’s at no risk of being moved off for performance reasons.
Riley will probably decline defensively to where it’s tough to put him at third at some point. But most likely that will happen more than two presidential elections from now, so it’s not really something worth fretting over. He’s clearly already answered the question of “sticking” at third. But yes, he’s a big dude, like a Troy Glaus type. Troy Glaus played a passable enough third base until he was 33. Riley is 26.
Man, Troy Glaus is not the comp you want to hear if a guy is owed $200M. He was still a good ballplayer but he went from being a star to being a 3-win player around the same age Riley will be next year. And then he had shoulder surgery at age 32 and was done. But, that’s not really even a bad outcome for a guy who put up a couple of 5-win seasons in his mid-20s.
But he did stick at third base! And was even okay at it, on and off.
Yeah, I wasn’t trying to comp them outside of the fact that even big bodied third basemen that show they can handle the position can generally stay there into their 30s. Hell, even Miggy played a passable third base at age 30!
Witt had a higher prospect pedigree than Volpe, has had a better career thus far than Volpe, and is ranked almost 10 spots lower?
I’m in no way out on Volpe after just over half a MLB season but I just can’t justify this ranking especially after seeing him make little to no adjustments at this level thus far.
As someone who doesn’t think the gap should be this big, if it exists at all…Volpe made an adjustment a month ago, and has been a different hitter since (/the same hitter he had been before this season).
There are reasons to rank Volpe higher: better projections after this year, a year younger with an extra year of control. But they are certainly pretty close.
I don’t think it’s about either of them really, I think it’s about some of the guys in between them. Vlad, Arozarena, Kyle Tucker … I’m not saying it’s wrong to prefer those guys to Witt (well, I do think that on Tucker). But it’s kinda weird to me to say you prefer Volpe to them but you prefer them to Witt.
Looking at Alvarez’s projected WAR relative to those around him and his ranking, I’m guessing he’s here mostly because there is a DH risk at some later point in his career. If one can guarantee that he will be an average defensive catcher for the duration of his contract, assuming normal catcher injury luck, where would he go? Would he be in top 10? Even higher?
Even if you only thought he was a catcher for the next 3 years (which I think is incredibly pessimistic), isn’t 3 years of elite catcher production plus another 3 years of good DH production extremely, extremely valuable?
I don’t think 252 plate appearances is enough to be completely sold on his bat living up to “good DH production.” And if he struggles on defense, he’d need to probably take a step forward offensively to be considered elite catcher production. He’s one of the highest ranked players that has these types of question marks, which I think accounts for the risks but also, as you say, the multiple ways he could provide decent value.
See, I personally think these are the reasons why his WAR projection would be lower. Because there are still a lot of questions about whether his bat is sustainable in my opinion. But the WAR projection, which is generally pessimistic, is projecting him to be perennial all-star level player. The player right above him, Valdez, has 2 year of control and already a perennial all-star and projects to have fewer WAR going forward.
I’m personally just really surprised that ZIPs is so high on his future sustainability.
Seems about right.
Wouldn’t William Contreras with his newly acquired defensive acumen, and career 121 wrc+ merit a place in the top 50?
So these 14 must be in the last 20 in some order: Acuna, Tatis, Franco, J-Rod, Y. Alvarez, Ramirez, Robert, Alcantara, Rutschman, McClanahan, Bichette, Riley, Webb, Murphy. But who are the 6 new additions? Obviously Corbin Carroll. Probably Semien, Harris, and Henderson. Maybe Wheeler and Devers as the last 2?
Elly, Gunnar, Carroll, Harris, Eury, Strider is my guess
Think those are right. Those are the six I’d expect.
Elly has a league average wrc+ driven by a 32% K rate, near 60% GB rate, and a .400 BABIP. He’s exciting and a tools monster, but let’s hold the brakes until the tools translate to something resembling sustainable performance. Given his history of very high K rates in the minors, he’s still incredibly risky.
I agree with all you say and may be hesitant to put him so high myself, but I feel the bottom of a top 20 ranking is warranted. Even league average wRC+ at age 21 is incredible, solid defense, and the tools are absolutely amazing. If he was any less risky he’d be top 5 easily.
Speaking of people who shouldn’t be this high above Bobby Witt, no matter how incredibly fun he is.
(That said, the improvement in plate discipline in AAA this year has me a believer).
Don’t know how I forgot about Strider! And for some reason in my mind I thought De La Cruz was already on the list. I definitely agree they will be on here over Devers and Wheeler.
yup
I mean, Spencer Torkelson will be top 5. Obviously. 🙂 🙂 🙂
been thinking about this a lot. there’s four for absolute certain: EDLC, carroll, gunnar, michael harris. i’m less certain of the other two but i think it’ll be spencer strider and eury perez.
semien, wheeler, and devers are great players but the top of the trade value list typically won’t include 32-33 year-olds (in wheeler/semien’s case), guys without a ton of team control (wheeler), or guys on monster contracts (devers).
I’m going to wait to see what the arguments here before committing to this line too directly but I am already a bit leery of Gunnar Henderson and Elly De La Cruz being notably ahead of Alvarez. I’m not sure whether I think Alvarez is too low or Henderson and De La Cruz are going to be too high but they’re all about the same age and Alvarez is outperforming both at the moment. You have to be really down on Alvarez sticking at catcher or staying healthy or his Statcast numbers to stick him lower, and maybe this is what teams are actually saying but I don’t buy it yet.
Gunnar Henderson is 22 and has already comfortably established himself as a 4 WAR player.
All of his under the hood numbers say he deserves it, and evaluators think that he’ll develop into a better defender than he is now.
I think he should be a clear tier above EDLC, at this point.
No way Semien’s age 33-37 seasons at $130m are on this list.
I think Semien’s age and contract keep him off the list. I’d love to have him on my team now, but I don’t know how long that will be true for and I will be paying him $25M through 2028. I think 32 year old guys owed that much money are almost untradeable as assets.
Corbin Carroll has to be top 3, with a decent case for #1 (although I can’t imagine anyone convincing me that it should be someone other than Acuna). Harris, Henderson, and Spencer Strider are near-locks. Semien, Nimmo, Judge, Correa, Devers, and Gerrit Cole would be major reaches this high but it’s hard to imagine them not being on it or an honorable mention at all.
Update: I agree with others that EDLC and Eury Perez are going to be the last two after Carroll, Henderson, Strider, and Harris.
Free agents 3 months into their contracts generally have little surplus value. They’d have to have taken a serious step forward, or else they’re basically the same player the team did not offer a better contract to than the team they are currently on. So Nimmo, Judge, and Correa would not be here. I’m not sure Judge or Correa would be claimed off waivers right now.
Cole is several years in and still pitching great, but remember he signed an absolute monster contract and even some larger market teams would whence at that risk. I believe he was an HM though, which makes sense.
ETA: he wasn’t HM, but I personally think he fits well in “good player on big contract.” He’s been the 7th best pitcher by WAR since 2020. I guess with that contract Yankee fans won’t be happy unless he is first best, but that’s not bad production.
Correa, absolutely.
Judge? In a world where Steve Cohen exists and doesn’t have Aaron Judge? Cohen would literally drive the limo himself to pick up Judge and take him to Queens.
OK, let me rephrase, if Steve Cohen were in a coma, Judge might not be claimed off waivers 🙃
SF almost certainly takes him, too.
After the winter Correa had, I don’t think he’d get picked up.
Julio Rodriguez’s contract is a royal mess of contingencies and complications, and he has made being an average bat look so hard at times this year. But with the speed, the obvious power, the suddenly excellent defense in CF, and the easy team-selling charisma, he’s gotta be somewhere in the top 20.
He is. He was #8 last year and wasn’t listed in this year’s first column that named all of the players that dropped out.
Strider? Thought it was weird he wasn’t an honorable mention. Him being above Gallen would be weird to me
Gallen is signed through 2025, Strider through 2028 with a club option for 2029. Think it’s probably as simple as that.
If you don’t think the Yanks would trade Volpe for Witt or Holliday straight up, in 15 seconds, you’re crazy.
I’ll say it. I don’t think the Yankees trade Volpe for Holliday.
Yeah, everyone clutches their babies tight…and the Yankees have delusions of contention, this year.
They’re in the thick of the Wild Card race and would have a 33% chance of playing the Twins whom they never lose to in October, so that puts them in the ALDS and at that point who knows!
Here’s the thing: you’re getting voted down for saying this, but you’re absolutely correct. They should. It’d be moronic not to. But, well, they’re morons.
I would say less moron and more shortsighted. But almost all GMs are shortsighted, and basically every team that’s projected to be in the playoffs with chance to go to the WS are shortsighted. Hard to think 5 years in the future when your owner is rolling out a top 5 payroll today and wants the team to be top 5 today.
Luzardo not getting an honorable mention at a minimum (I can’t imagine he is in the top 20 as that would be equally as silly) with three cheapish non-guaranteed arbitration years coming when he’s a top 15-20 SP in baseball right now and likely ascending seems like a big miss to me. Neto, Kirk, Pena, McLain, Mullins, Steer, Nootbaar, Hayes, and others would be moved “quickly” for him if the Marlins were to make him available for a major bat move. But of course, some of that may be due to those teams needing pitchers (badly) and having other reasonable stick options but you get it, etc. A clear miss IMO. He is fantastic.
If Steele isn’t on the list Luzardo isn’t going to be. That said, I think I agree with you. Both Steele and Luzardo would fetch more in a trade right now than a guy like Steer or Nootbaar. Pitchers are never more expensive than when they are both healthy and pitching well and that’s both of those guys right now.
SS is way too deep to be valuing good defenders who are average on the offensive side this high. I just fundamentally disagree with both Volpe and Peña being anywhere in the top 50. Especially while leaving off players like J. Lowe and Adolis Garcia.
Agree. I’m increasingly of the belief that TV overrates “the good hitter… for a shortstop” types.
If half of MLB has their mediocre shortstop on the list and the Dodgers apparently could just move Mookie Betts and his same length as Austin Riley for all of 4M AAV more per year contract there whenever they feel like it…yeah, something is off.
I’d agree with you. I also think there is a skepticism around hitters in the Lowe and Garcia mold who have generally had poor plate discipline. Which is funny because most of the discourse around these guys is ‘if they just get their strikeout rate down’ or ‘if they just improve their plate discipline’ and the once they do so the skepticism over whether or not they can maintain it persists.
Lowe has poor play discipline.
And he’s platoon only.
And he can barely handle RF.
And he’s 25.
I’m not making the argument for Lowe as much as the archetype of player having more burden of proof than others (for some logical and some less logical reasons). Your points are all correct on Lowe.
Lowe looks like a strong-side platoon bat who plays a passable corner outfield. Garcia is 30. I agree that Ben seems to be overrating the glove-first shortstops, but I don’t think those guys have the strongest case to be included over Volpe et al.
I have to assume there’s a “J. Lowe” other than Josh for this comment to make any sort of sense.
Different spelling than Josh but Jennifer Lopez has similarly sounding nickname. She’s a free agent now though
hahaha remember that rumor she and A-Rod were going to buy a team?
This season, 24 different players have accumulated 200 PA at SS, while maintaining an 80 wRC+ or higher while also grading positively in OAA.
It’s just not a rare skillset anymore. It might have been hard to find halfway decent bats who could play an average defensive SS in previous eras, but not in this one
That’s an incredible factoid, given that only 17 players have both 400 innings played at SS and a positive OAA!
That list includes names like Javy Baez, Miguel Rojas, Brandon Crawford, and Jorge Mateo.
So…yeah.
Yeah, I think there is ample evidence to suggest that the positional adjustment for shortstop should be cut down a little, because in earlier eras they wouldn’t have figured out ways for guys like Corey Seager to stay at shortstop. Also, there are like 15 teams right now that are unhappy with their production at shortstop.
I have my problems with rWAR, but their tying positional adjustments to actual market value is very smart.
A poor defending corner outfielder running a high BABIP and doesn’t walk usually doesn’t result in long term success (Lowe) and Garcia is already 30 year old. I don’t think its much of a debate between the short stops and Lowe, and I’d have to be in a ‘win now with another solid SS in place’ window to move one of them for Garcia.
One thing to note about Shohei Ohtani’s trade value–ESPN ran a story where they asked their writers to assemble trade packages for Shohei Ohtani from each team. For example, one writer proposed that the Orioles trade Coby Mayo, Heston Kjerstad, Cade Povich, and DL Hall. For some reason, Jeff Passan didn’t like this deal and preferred a couple of worse deals instead. Maybe everyone involved in that piece doesn’t like Mayo or Kjerstad for some inexplicable reason but the fact that we are talking about this for a rental and it’s not even the best offer is unhinged. I get it but also it’s crazy.
Lol I saw that, and oh man! I suspect it’s because, as much as I like Passan, he’s not a prospect guy and is just going off (non-fangraphs) preseason lists. He doesn’t realize that Kjerstad is a top 100 guy and Mayo might be, what, top 20?
Of guys still in the minors, Kjerstad might be top 50 and Mayo might even be top 10.
Nothing is guaranteed yet. But they look ridiculously good.
I found the comment that catchers routinely put up less WAR than other position players thanks to the rigors of the job a complete contradiction to my assessment of their value. No position comes close to the influence the catcher has upon the game in ways that cannot be directly measured. I don’t give tinker’s damn to the idea that you measure a catcher by mere numbers. Nobody can tell me that Jason Varitek’s value to the Red Sox wasn’t unmeasurable during that magical run. It isn’t coincidence that the Giants were a able to win 3 World Series while the great Buster Posey was their catcher and, my favorite, other than Varitek of course, must be Yadier Molina. From 2004-2022. during those 19 years the Cardinals made 13 post-season appearances with 2 World Series Championships in 4 appearances. Is it coincidence that the Cardinals have flopped, face down on the field this season? I think not. The mere presence of a man of his stature, even in his declining years, has a way of motivating the team. Is Adam Wainwright’s collapse due to the fact that Yady isn’t calling his game? You know my answer which is absolutely. A lifetime bWAR of 42.1, you must be kidding me, 142.1 barely does this all-time great player justice. If I was building a team with the players available today my first pick would be Adley Rutschman and I would make it at the speed of light. Are there intangibles in the game of baseball? Is the earth round?
I’d say you’re overthinking this. It’s just based off the fact that WAR is a cumulative number, and catchers typically player 20-30 less games than a typical position player
That isn’t quite what I am doing, It isn’t overthinking, it is attempting to put the value of catcher at the level it deserves. Does everybody here think baseball is absolutely nothing but a series of numbers? Who can quantify leadership? Who can quantify pitch calling? Please tell me exactly how many times a team didn’t attempt a steal because of the quality of the catcher’s arm? That is every bit as important as the percentage of runners thrown out. If there are those who think these qualities don’t exist or play a large role in the success of a baseball team then they are missing the essence of baseball and the role the catchers play.
I don’t think anyone is presuming that “leadership” isn’t a thing, or isn’t valuable, but it’s hard enough to value guys based on their measurable, quantifiable contributions. Good luck getting any sort of consensus on defining leadership in any meaningful way and figuring how to adjust a player’s value based on that.
In that regard, leadership is not unlike Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart’s famous quote regarding obscenity: “I know it when I see it.”
I couldn’t agree more than with your use of the famous quote from Justice Stewart, but when it is there to be seen it should be admired, and valued highly, and nobody personified this more than Jason Varitek. His glove in the face of ARod will always be in my top 5 of great moments in baseball. I strongly believe this leadership skill manifests itself in top level catchers. When I was young it was Yogi and Campy winning MVP’s every year and recently it has been Varitek, Posey and Molina leading their teams to great success. It isn’t coincidence and is not given enough credit.
I do agree that Varitek had some real leadership qualities that gave him some value beyond his raw numbers. How to measure/quantify that though? Man I have no idea.
If anybody here hasn’t seen it yet, you must head to MLB. com and read the story of Scott Rolen and his friend. If he never made a great play or hit a clutch HR, this alone qualifies him for the Hall of Fame.
Jon Morosi on MLB Network this morning about Ohtani’s trade value: “I spoke with an executive yesterday who thought it would be comparable to what the Padres gave up a year ago to get Juan Soto.”
Which, of course, means that Ohtani’s ranking on last year’s list was absurdly low.
There was literally an article last year right after the deadline from Rosenthal that basically said “Ohtani > Soto”.
Well Ohtani is better than Soto and SP have a disproportionate impact in postseason.
But Soto was team control for 2.5 seasons when traded while Ohtani would be a 3 month rental. Which is what makes that statement so impressive.
Well I don’t think it’s true that Ohtani will fetch a Soto return but he’d definitely fetch more than a Soto rental return.
Well the fact that the exec Morosi spoke to thinks he will is really impressive.
Or that exec could’ve just been an idiot.
I don’t quite understand why ZIPS projects Soto with a 165 wRC+ next year, or 6.6 WAR. Don’t get me wrong, he’s incredible even despite being mediocre at a less important defensive position, but is it that this is using traditional aging curves or something? I thought that someone found that if someone comes out elite at a very young age that their peak comes after a similar number of seasons as those who start at a more typical age. Which is to say I don’t think we should assume Soto improves next year just because of his age, nor do I think there is reason to assume that he gets close to his 2021 wRC+ since this and last year have happened since then (not that they are not great performances, just I wouldn’t think his 50th% probability would be 6.5 WAR).
“gargantuan ceiling?”
Again, Soto is a bat-only player who can’t elevate the baseball, can’t hit line drives, and hits too many pop-ups for a ground-ball hitter.
Projection systems seem to do this relatively frequently when someone does something that is truly spectacular for their age level. After 2015 I think every projection overshot Bryce Harper’s WAR by at least 1 and usually much more until 2021. Sometimes guys are just really advanced at a young age and they are not likely to get better. It’s like it’s muttering to itself “but Juan Soto put up 7 wins at age 22 after establishing himself as a star at age 20-21, that’s his true age profile and the last couple years is just bad luck.” Once a projection system settles on a starting point for the age curve, it takes a while to dislodge it.
I make no judgment on this, BTW. It does seem high to me, but also it’s not at all inconceivable he does that so I’m not inclined to worry about it too much.
For what it’s worth, on his page Juan Soto is projected for only 154 wRC+ on his page for the rest of this year, so it’s unclear to me what the computer thinks is going to be different between this year and next year. My default assumption is not that he is going to put up a 150 wRC+ or 165 wRC+ or anything in between, but rather that there’s no reason to assume that his true skills / ability level will change.
This needs to be proven but it wouldnt strike me as odd if historical data is feeding in guys from 25 to 50 to 100 years ago where being great very young translated into generational player almost always but nowadays you have kids receiving advanced nutrition, training etc. from childhood producing some precocious talents that are maxed out at age 22 (Vlad Jr, Gleyber Torres, Starlin Castro, etc)
Gleyber’s 38 HR season wasn’t about being “maxed out.”
It was about that damn rocket ball, haha.
I want my superstars to put up Ted Williams, Willie Mays and Albert Pujols (St. Louis) type numbers, not pedestrian lines that are augmented by an inordinate number of BB’s. I actually wonder how many here realize that WAR is nothing but a distribution of 1000 points amongst the players in the game. fWAR distributes this by giving 570 to position players and 430 to pitchers. In bWAR the mix is 590-410. In a year, maybe too close for comfort, a player with a slash line of .198/290/375 might be a 10 WAR player. For this reason I find it very difficult to see a poor fielding corner outfielder with a batting line that is only seen as good because so many others can’t hit their weight as anything more than just another above average player.
This reads like stylistic/aesthetic argument, not a value/win games argument. It also has a weirdly beats up on a .198/.290/.375 10 WAR strawman. If pitching has developed to the point where the best hitters aren’t putting up similar lines to players of years past, that’s not Soto’s fault. And while he and his employers are more concerned with winning than theoretical batting lines, I share your concern for the TTO rise. If that’s what your comment was getting at.
I swear it drives me crazier when people post totally misunderstood stat basics like this than when they rant about their awful political beliefs in the comments here. You have the absolute wrong end of the stick on this! Those numbers are how WAR is scaled, not how it’s calculated!
Lucky for you, WAR sees an enormous distinction between what Juan Soto is doing now versus what any of those guys are doing. So I don’t know why you’re blaming WAR for any of this when it is very much reflecting the fact that Soto is not anywhere close to peak Willie Mays.
There is no way Vinnie Pasquantino belongs anywhere near the top 20 so I’m sure he’s just not anywhere. And now that we’re here I’m a bit surprised he didn’t merit honorable mention while Jordan Walker made the top 50. (I didn’t think Vinnie’d be in the top 30 either but wasn’t 100% certain until we got here.) The age gap obviously matters but so far Vinnie’s been the better hitter at both the minor and major league level, and his projections are better too. They’re both all-bat no-field guys who will be free agent eligible in the same year.
I’ll throw Steer and Nootbaar in there too. None of these guys have a track record or some kind of skill differentiator that makes them obviously better to me. Am I just being a homer about this? Is there something I should be seeing?
A torn labrum isn’t something to completely dismiss. Aside from being unavailable to contribute for a significant amount of time, the uncertainty of his skill level post-recovery really sets him apart from a Steer or Walker.
Ah that’s fair. I was thinking of it mostly as a throwing problem, but a bit more reading suggests it’s not and the short-term recovery for hitters is a very mixed bag.
If you’ve messed up your labrum, it’s a “raising your arm above your head without going white” problem.
I’m with you on Steer, but Nootbar is a good defensive OF, a good baserunner, and roughly as effective a hitter as Vinnie…who’s very fun, but also seems like a rich man’s Billy Butler, even if he does come back fully from the shoulder surgery.
The Lars Nootbar hate has gotten out of control.
I am not a close follower of either player, but it seems like whatever reservations you might have about Alvarez, he should rank ahead of Smith in terms of value.
Per ZIPS
Alvarez, 5 more years of control, 22.7 WAR, will cost 3 years of arb salary
Smith, 2 more years of control, 9.7 WAR, will cost last 2 years of arb salary.
Assuming Alvarez does about as well as Smith in arbitration, he’s going to only cost about $5 mil. more for 13 more WAR. He’s also only 21 (vs 28) and there’s a lot better chance that they can lock him up cheap long-term. Putting Smith ahead is giving a lot of value to certainty.
What am I missing?
I guess what I’m saying is that the Will Smith ranking is a slap in the face to Alvarez.
I agree Alvarez should be over Smith, but risk is a pretty big part of the equation too. Smith is a bankable, known quantity. There are still questions surrounding Alvarez despite the strong start. But he could shoot up the list next year if he keeps doing what he’s doing.
Not just risk vs certainty, there’s also future discounting. Smith isn’t just certain, he’s better today than Alvarez. Probably won’t be true in a few years, but it is now. The thing that makes the question is how you do your discounting of future value. I’m with you all, I’d put Alvarez above. But with a strong enough discount, you’d go the other way.
Great points. I’m wondering though, even over the next 2 years, a lot of teams might prefer Alvarez. Again, per ZIPS:
Smith 2024-2025: 9.7 WAR, ~$25 mil
Alvarez 2024-2025: 7.7 WAR, minimum salary
Still more risk with Alvarez, obviously, but much cheaper and nearly as good. And if we’re just looking at the next two years, fears about him slowing down or getting too big are greatly reduced.
And when those two years are over? 3 more cost-controlled years of Alvarez.
It’s all about the risk. See: Alejandro Kirk, 2022.
Counterpoint: Miguel Montero!
The main thing you are missing is that this series is far from being determined by ZiPS alone.
The second related thing is that there is good reason to believe ZiPS is too high on Alvarez.
ZiPS is projecting 22.7 WAR for Alvarez’s age 22-26 season.
Since 1970, only seven catchers have exceeded 20 WAR for their age 22-26 season. (Johnny Bench, Joe Mauer, Brian McCann, Ivan Rodriguez, Ted Simmons, Gary Carter, and Buster Posey)
That is six HoFers and Brian McCann who put up a ridiculous 77 framing runs in his age 24-26 season, something that is practically impossible to replicate in 2020’s.
Can Alvarez belong in that list? Sure.
Is it more likely than not that he does? Ehh… Probably not in my opinion.
I didn’t mean to reduce this to simply a list of ZIPS projections. As Ben mentioned, both he and others he talked to agreed with ZIPS’s assessment of Alvarez.
That’s an impressive list! Do you know how many catchers were in starting in the Majors at age 21 or younger and putting up 3.0+ WAR (Alvarez is at 2.2 WAR so far)? Here’s the list: Darrell Porter, Ted Simmons, Gary Carter, Butch Wynegar (twice!). That’s it. So what he’s doing already is really elite.
But even if he’s not putting up 22 WAR, what if it’s 18? 18 WAR, including already being an above average starter, cost-controlled, through age 26.
I wasn’t thinking this is a slam dunk, but the more I look the more I think it is.
One clarification needed: I did the search for 22-26, catcher, total WAR and I see Kendall at exactly 20 and Martin below 20 (18.8).
For comparison: From 1970-2023, only 8 catchers have put up 9.7 or more WAR from age 29-30, as Smith is projected to do.
Well I guess I can start working on my “Harris is too high” argument now to be ready for tomorrow.
Zac Gallen has a 2.44 ERA and 2.55 FIP in the last calendar year, not 1.49 and 2.07
The numbers in the article are seemingly from this date in 2022 to the end of 2022. Just a mistake I guess.
Why the hell is Framber Valdez up here and Cease an honorable mention? Both controllable I’m arb through 2025, but Cease is two years younger, and has put up 10.9 fWAR since start of ‘21 to Framber’s 9.6. Very different styles of pitching, but I cannot see any sane argument for Framber being treated like he’s at least a full tier above Cease in quality if not two given the gap between HM and #25. Sure, Cease is a little more volatile in ERA due to his general wildness, but his fWAR evaluation is quite steady, and he’s not any less of a workhorse by durability.
The obvious answer is their performance so far this season. Cease holds 4.18 ERA and 3.77 FIP, whereas Valdez boasts 2.76 ERA and 2.91 FIP. Granted, a half-season is a relatively small sample size, but there are notable changes in velocity that warrant optimism and skepticism towards Valdez and Cease, respectively.
Cease experienced a decline in velocity for both his four-seamer and slider pitches this season, losing a full tick in speed. 13 out of the 20 slowest 4-seamer velocity games for Cease occurred in 2023.
On the other hand, Valdez gained an impressive 1.7 MPH in his sinker this season. Valdez’s top 17 games by sinker velocity are in 2023, a year in which he started 18 games.
Well that’s not sketchy. Valdez at 29 up almost four ticks since 2021.
I picked Framber Valdez as the Cy Young winner last year. I was a year too soon!
I would take Albies and his 4-WAR projection and super cheap contract with two team options over half of these guys. Maybe more.
…maybe all of them, honestly.
Ozzie for Ohtani…who says no?
I like this tier Ben, but Alvarez has to be higher. His power is already the best out of any catcher in the league at 21 years old! He’s setting HR records for rookie catchers halfway through the season! And the scouts severely underrated his defense, which you mentioned, is already plus at age 21.
I feel like he’s not getting the same respect other top prospects who have come up at an extremely young age and produced like a star immediately have gotten. He was a consensus top 5 prospect, came up and played like a star, has 5 years team control remaining, and is still in the same area as George Kirby and Will Smith (who is awesome but has 4 less years of control)???
Don’t get that one.
Having Alvarez ranked this high suggests that the good Contreras was an unfortunate omission.
I would suggest including him, perhaps at the expense of the crowd’s least preferred option, you guessed it.. K’Bryan Hayes.
I read the comments on McClain & Volpe, and can’t help but think Zeke Duran should be on this list.