Big Comebacks and Easy Calls: The Next Five Years of BBWAA Hall of Fame Elections

The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2023 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.
For the second year in a row, BBWAA voters elected just one player to the Hall of Fame. While the results may feel underwhelming — at least, beyond the fact that Scott Rolen is a very solid addition to Cooperstown — the advances made by a handful of candidates who didn’t get to 75% this year bolster the likelihood that they will someday, whether it’s via the writers’ ballot or a small committee to be named later. Looking ahead, there’s nothing to suggest that we’re about to see another wave that brings to mind the record-setting 22 candidates the writers elected over the 2014-20 span, but the next few ballots will be more crowded than the last couple, and should make for some lively election cycles.
Underlying this is a change in the dynamics of Hall of Fame candidacies, one that I’ve been noting in this space in recent years. From 1966 to 2005, only three candidates recovered from debuts below 25% and eventually reached 75%, even with 15 years of eligibility: Duke Snider (17.0% in 1970, elected in ’81), Don Drysdale (21.0% in 1975, elected in ’84) and Billy Williams (23.4% in 1982, elected in ’87). Since then, we’ve seen six players elected despite such slow starts, including three from 2017-23. From the 15-year eligibility period came Bruce Sutter (23.9% in 1994, elected in 2006) and Bert Blyleven (17.5% in 1998, elected in 2011), and then once the Hall unilaterally decided to cut eligibility from 15 years to 10 — less to clean up the ballots than to try moving the intractable debate over PED-related candidates out of the spotlight, and give voters less time to soften their attitudes — Tim Raines (24.3% in 2008, elected in ’17), Mike Mussina (20.3% in 2014, elected in ’19), Larry Walker (20.3% in ’11, elected in ’20), and now Rolen, whose 10.2% in 2018 represents the lowest debut share of any modern candidate elected by the writers.
Notably, the four candidates just below Rolen in this year’s returns were also slow starters who could join this bunch. Either last year or this one, they crossed the 50% threshold, the point at which eventual election becomes a near-certainty, and this year, each of them gained at least 14 percentage points, the first time four players who were already above 40% did so in the same year, according to The Athletic’s Jayson Stark:
| Player | Year | Pct | Year | Pct |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Todd Helton | 2019 | 16.2% | 2023 | 72.2% |
| Billy Wagner | 2016 | 10.5% | 2023 | 68.1% |
| Andruw Jones | 2018 | 7.3% | 2023 | 58.1% |
| Gary Sheffield | 2015 | 11.7% | 2023 | 55.0% |
Every candidate who has reached 50% via the writers and is no longer on the ballot has eventually been elected save for last year’s “graduating” class of Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling. Of the 44 candidates who reached the 40-49% range at least once since 1966 (the year voters returned to the annual balloting) and are no longer on the ballot (including the aforementioned trio and now Jeff Kent), 20 were elected by the writers and another 16 by small committees; that last count includes Gil Hodges and Tony Oliva, elected via the 2022 Golden Days Era Committee ballot. In other words, it’s not unreasonable to think about the aforementioned players finding spots in Cooperstown sometime in the near future, something that’s a lot more fun to consider than the near-paralysis caused by the debates over performance-enhancing drugs and character issues — though that isn’t to say those issues won’t factor into future elections.
With that preamble, it’s time to break out my crystal ball for my 10th-annual five-year election outlook. It’s an exercise that’s more art than science, requiring some amount of imagination and speculation, and while it’s grounded in my research into the candidates and the history and mechanics of the voting, the changes to the process that have occurred over the past decade raise the question of how valuable that history is from a prognostication standpoint.
Revising this annually is a necessity because every incorrect assumption has a ripple effect. The presence of a high-share holdover means less space for and less attention paid to the mid-ballot guys, so clearing one from the ballot can have ramifications that won’t be felt for a few years.
For the sake of this exercise, I am assuming that the basic mechanics of these elections will remain in place: 10 votes per ballot, with a 5% minimum to avoid falling off, and 10 years of eligibility for new candidates. Note that each ballot’s year refers to the year of induction; that ballot is released in November of the previous year, with ballots due on December 31. To be eligible, a candidate must not have played in the majors for five full seasons, but his eligibility year will actually be six years after his last appearance.
2024
Top newcomers (ranked by JAWS): Adrián Beltré, Chase Utley, Joe Mauer, David Wright, Bartolo Colon
Top holdovers (by voting pct.): Todd Helton, Billy Wagner, Andruw Jones, Gary Sheffield, Carlos Beltrán
Most likely to be elected: Beltré, Helton
Falling off: Sheffield
This ballot will harken back to the recent boom times thanks to the strong crop of holdovers as well as the high-profile newcomers, a class that would have included Ichiro Suzuki as well if not for his two-game cameo at the start of the 2019 season. The top-shelf talent starts with Beltré, whose 3,166 hits, 477 homers, number two ranking in fielding runs at the hot corner and number four ranking in JAWS will set up an easy waltz into Cooperstown — a remarkable turn of events given that when he left Seattle after the 2009 season, he had never made an All-Star team, and his inability to live up to his big ’04 walk year marked him as a disappointment.
Mauer, a six-time All-Star, three-time Gold Glove winner, three-time batting champion (the only catcher who can claim that) and former MVP winner himself, ranks seventh in JAWS among catchers. Forced off the position due to post-concussion problems, he spent the last five seasons of his career as a more or less league average first baseman, but even with that handicap, and with just 921 games caught, his seven-year peak — all from his years behind the plate — ranks fifth, behind only Gary Carter, Johnny Bench, Mike Piazza, and Ivan Rodriguez. As the hometown success story and number one overall pick who lived up to his billing, he’s likely to get an extra bump in the character department, which is sure to stir up the faction of Twins fans still mad about his salary.
That said, just two catchers have been elected in their first year of eligibility, Bench and Rodriguez. Between the the late-career downturn and the incoming crowd, which includes Wagner heading into his ninth year and Sheffield his 10th, Mauer’s election could be delayed. He’ll be in Cooperstown in short order, but maybe not in 2024.
Less likely to wind up there via this ballot is Utley. Despite not drawing more than 300 plate appearances in a season until age 26, he ranks 12th in JAWS among second baseman (and ninth in peak) thanks to the tremendous impact of his fielding and baserunning. Alas, if voters’ failure to recognize him in the MVP races and Gold Glove awards didn’t already make it apparent that he’s facing an uphill battle, I fear that he’ll become a victim of the Rule of 2,000; due to injuries and his acceptance of a part-time role in his final years, he finished with just 1,885 hits, and even with the Era Committee election of Oliva, the writers have yet to elect anybody from the post-1960 expansion era who finished with fewer than 2,000. I’m hopeful that with an electorate sophisticated enough not to rely solely on career totals as a yardstick, he’ll receive substantial support, and we can hope he eventually gets his plaque. Still, I’m bracing for a first-year percentage in Rolen/Helton territory; in the Ballot Tracker team’s VIP poll, I estimated Utley with a first-year showing of 17% (and Mauer at 62%). I’d love to find out I’ve underestimated both.
With seven All-Star appearances and 50.1 WAR through his age-31 season (2014) — 11th among third basemen — Wright was on a path that conceivably could have carried him to Cooperstown, but spinal stenosis and other injuries derailed him and finally forced him into retirement in 2018. His 39.5 WAR peak score is short of the Hall standard (43.0), and his 1,777 hits leave him well short of 2,000. I wouldn’t be surprised if he sticks around a less crowded ballot than more recent short-career candidates such as Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt, and Lance Berkman faced, but I wouldn’t expect him to reach critical mass.
Colon spent 21 years in the majors and won 247 games thanks in large part to one of the great third acts in baseball history. After tearing his rotator cuff in the 2005 postseason, just after putting together a campaign that won him the Cy Young award, he spent four years coming and going from various rosters and was out of baseball completely in 2010 before re-emerging with the Yankees following a radical stem cell treatment. He put together some big seasons for the A’s and Mets, earning All-Star honors twice after age 40 and becoming an unlikely fan favorite despite getting pinched for PEDs in 2012. Sticking around past his 45th birthday, the rotund righty racked up 247 wins, and while his 40.8 S-JAWS merely ranks 131st, he might get token support as a nod towards the fun he brought to the game in the age of social media, never more so than when he hit one of history’s most unlikely home runs on May 7, 2016.
As for the holdovers, Helton’s now a gimme putt away from gaining entry, and one has to think he’ll get over the top. Wagner is within striking distance, but just under half of the candidates in the 65–70% with eligibility remaining get to 75% on the first try, and he does have a second year to get there, whereas Sheffield needs a Larry Walker-like last-ditch effort; Walker’s 22% gain from 54.6% in 2020 was the second-largest one-year gain resulting in election since 1966, helping him get over the line by just six votes. On a suddenly-crowded ballot, I just don’t know whether that’s realistic for Sheffield even given his comparability to Ortiz, and the relatively minimal nature of his PED connection. My guess is that he falls short but quickly becomes a strong candidate on a crowded Era Committee ballot. I’d love to see Wagner gain entry here, but I think he’ll join the list of 10th-year honorees in 2025 instead.
A bit further down, I expect Jones to cross the 60% threshold and Beltrán, who debuted with 46.5%, the 50% mark.
2025
Top newcomers: Ichiro Suzuki, CC Sabathia, Dustin Pedroia, Ian Kinsler, Félix Hernández, Troy Tulowitzki, Ben Zobrist, Russell Martin, Brian McCann,
Top holdovers: Wagner, Mauer, Beltrán, Jones
Most likely to be elected: Suzuki, Mauer, Wagner
As a subset of the already-annoying “first ballot” distinction, the debate surrounding electoral unanimity is silly. A Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer, and they don’t put a special ribbon or even a mention of getting 100% of the vote on the plaque. But if any upcoming candidate has a shot, it’s Ichiro, who racked up 3,089 hits stateside despite not debuting until age 27. The former MVP, two-time batting champ, 10-time All-Star, 10-time Gold Glove winner, and international ambassador of baseball would have been eligible for the 2024 ballot, but his season-opening two-game cameo in Japan in 2019 pushed his eligibility back a year. Whether or not he runs the table among BBWAA voters, he’ll be a first-ballot honoree. As RJ McDaniel wrote in 2019, “There are few players in the history of organized baseball who have brought this joy to more people — spanning continents, crossing decades — than Ichiro.” That’s the kind of impact that propelled Mariano Rivera and Derek Jeter towards unanimity (the former made history, the latter was prevented from doing so by one as-yet-unidentified troll), and it will do the same for Suzuki.
Sabathia has a strong pair of traditional milestones — 250 wins and 3,000 strikeouts — to go with his Cy Young award (plus five other top-five finishes in the voting) and his championship ring. He’s a little light on S-JAWS, in that his 50.8 points ranks 55th all-time, six points below the standard, but that’s by far the highest ranking of any recent retiree; by comparison, Mark Buehrle and Andy Pettite, the current top pitchers on the ballot, rank 78th and 81st, respectively, 3.4 and 3.6 points lower. Between Sabathia’s standing and the second act of his career, which saw him confront his alcoholism and remake himself as a finesse pitcher after his mid-90s fastball had faded, his candidacy offers a compelling narrative that will appeal to voters; note that there were a considerable number of “future Hall of Famer” tributes in his final season. I think he’ll be elected, but not on the first ballot given both the traffic and the need to convince some segment of the voters.
Sabathia’s resilience stands out particularly when juxtaposed with Hernández, a six-time All-Star with a Cy Young award, two other runner-up finishes, and two ERA titles. Worked even harder than the Sabathia in his 20s, Hernández once appeared Cooperstown-bound, but he fell apart in his early 30s, and could not write a happier ending, finishing with just 169 wins, 2,524 strikeouts, and 2,729.2 innings. His 44.1 S-JAWS ranks just 96th overall (one rung below Sandy Koufax, whose ranking falls a bit once I dial down the impact of those 300-inning seasons), and his adjusted peak of 38.5 WAR is 65th. If I’m looking for a case to make for a short-career starter, that of the aforementioned Santana (69th in S-JAWS at 48.3) with his two Cy Youngs is a far more convincing one even in about 700 fewer innings.
(For some thoughts about Hall-bound pitchers, Baseball Prospectus‘ Patrick Dubuque has a great piece here that has me thinking about my next installments in my S-JAWS series).
Moving to the other end of the battery, McCann and Martin are two of the era’s top pitch framers, and so long as a good portion of the baseball public insists that Yadier Molina is a Hall of Famer based on his own ability in that area, I’ll push the other two into the conversation as well, though they didn’t quite have Molina’s staying power. McCann caught for eight playoff-bound teams in his 15-year career and bashed 282 homers, but he wore down significantly after age 32, playing in just 245 games over his final three seasons. Martin caught for 10 playoff-bound teams and played a pivotal role in ending the playoff droughts of both the Pirates and Blue Jays. Both are far short of 2,000 hits, and are probably doomed as far as the writers ballots are concerned, but I’m going to make my point by including them nonetheless. This table, which incorporates the framing metrics of both FanGraphs (from 2008 onward) and Baseball Prospectus (for 1988-2007 using Max Marchi’s Retroframing methodology) shows how closely clustered they are with Mauer and Molina:
| Player | Career | WAR | FG Fram | BP Fram | WAR Adj | fWAR | fPeak | fJAWS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mike Piazza | 1992-2007 | 63.7 | n/a | 87.2 | 8.4 | 72.1 | 52.5 | 62.3 |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 1991-2011 | 69.2 | 2.9 | -14.1 | -1.5 | 67.7 | 40.0 | 53.9 |
| Buster Posey | 2009-2019 | 57.5 | 128.8 | 0 | 0.0 | 57.5 | 47.7 | 52.6 |
| Joe Mauer | 2004-2018 | 53.0 | 27.6 | 38.3 | 3.8 | 56.8 | 42.4 | 49.6 |
| Yadier Molina | 2004-2022 | 55.7 | 151.1 | 30.0 | 2.9 | 58.6 | 39.5 | 49.1 |
| Russell Martin | 2006-2019 | 55.0 | 165.7 | 33.7 | 3.3 | 58.2 | 39.8 | 49.0 |
| Brian McCann | 2005-2019 | 54.5 | 165.6 | -11.3 | -1.1 | 53.4 | 39.9 | 46.7 |
| Jorge Posada | 1995-2011 | 40.4 | -43.9 | -69.5 | -6.7 | 33.7 | 29.5 | 31.6 |
It’s also worth pointing out in this context that Martin had just 6,648 plate appearances in his career and McCann 6,850 to Molina’s 8,554 — the two eligibles here packed a lot of value into much shorter careers.
Kinsler, who retired with 1,999 hits (!), ranks a very respectable 20th in JAWS. He wasn’t the equal of Utley at the plate (107 OPS+ to 117), on the bases, or in the field (87 DRS to 131, in more playing time), though, and given a shortish career, I don’t see him making electoral headway. The same is true for Pedroia, who’s 19th in JAWS, and had fewer hits (1,805) to go with a 113 OPS+ and 99 DRS in his career, which was derailed by left knee woes stemming from a 2017 collision with Manny Machado; he played just nine games in 2018 and ’19, his age-34 and 35 seasons. While he played a prominent role in two championships and won MVP and Rookie of the Year Awards, through his age-33 season, his 52.3 WAR ranks 16th, five spots below Bobby Grich (60.1), three below Lou Whitaker (55.5), two below Utley (55.0) and one below Willie Randolph (53.7), which is to say that he might have come up short (sorry) of Cooperstown even if he hadn’t been injured. Jackie Robinson is the only BBWAA-elected second baseman with a lower WAR at that stage, and obviously, his was a special case.
On the shortstop side of the bag, Troy Tulowitzki didn’t come close to sticking around long enough to have a real case for the Hall, accumulating “only” 1,391 hits but a near-standard peak score of 40.2 (he’s 3.0 points below, while Pedroia is 3.4 below and Kinsler 6.3 below). At best, that makes him Nomar Garciaparra Lite as far as the voters will be concerned. Ben Zobrist, a superutility player with an emphasis on super, had just 1,566 hits but played a pivotal role on eight postseason teams, winning rings with both the Royals and Cubs; he was the World Series MVP for the latter. It won’t be enough for the voters but it’s enough for a lifetime.
Amid this bumper crop of candidates, I see Wagner joining the lineage of year-10 honorees, and Mauer building upon on a strong first year showing and gaining entry as well. Jones should be nearing election, and Beltrán, by this point, should be pulling in a good amount of support; the pair will benefit from comparisons reminding voters just how highly they rank among center fielders.
2026
Top newcomers: Cole Hamels, Ryan Braun, Alex Gordon, Shin-Soo Choo, Edwin Encarnación, Nick Markakis
Top holdovers: Sabathia, Beltrán, Jones, Utley, Alex Rodriguez
Most likely to be elected: Sabathia, Jones
Falling off: Manny Ramirez
The 2020 season left us short in many areas, including the retirement department. Perhaps it’s the case that few players wanted to end their careers following such a strange campaign. From this group, Braun owns the highest WAR (47.1) of any player who’s officially retired. Braun made six All-Star teams, won the NL Rookie of the Year and MVP awards, and hit 352 homers, but he was caught violating MLB’s drug policy twice. The first time, an arbitrator overturned his suspension, that after Braun publicly smeared the sample collector — alleging anti-Semitism — in an unparalleled bit of ugliness within the annals of baseball’s efforts to fight PEDs. Countless players have denied knowledge of how illegal substances got into their bodies, and some (Rafael Palmeiro comes to mind) tried to cast blame elsewhere, but nobody else took a page from the Lance Armstrong playbook by trying to ruin the reputation of an innocent bystander in such a manner. The second time Braun was caught, via the Biogenesis investigation, he served a 65-game suspension. He’s nowhere near as strong a candidate as Ramirez, who will be in his final year; Hall-wise, both are toast.
Speaking of PED users, I haven’t mentioned Rodriguez yet. Maybe he’ll be gaining some ground by this, his fifth year, but I strongly suspect his ceiling is lower than those of Bonds and Clemens because of his well-earned full-year suspension. Ramirez, who just broke 30% for the first time in year seven (33.2%), might get a late push but I’d be shocked if he even surpassed Jeff Kent’s 46.5% from this year.
Back to the official retirement distinction, Hamels (59.3 WAR) hasn’t made the move, and he just returned to the showcase-to-draw-interest treadmill after triceps and shoulder injuries limited him to a single start in 2020, a thwarted comeback attempt the following year, and a November ’21 shoulder surgery. In what has up to this point been a 15-year career, he made four All-Star teams, spun one complete-game no-hitter and did the heavy lifting of a combined one, and won a World Series while helping the Phillies to another pennant as well. His 48.4 S-JAWS is just an eyelash ahead of Santana, and he doesn’t have any Cy Youngs; meanwhile, his 163 wins are well short of the 200-plus for Buehrle, Pettitte, and the no-longer eligible Tim Hudson. In light of what I noted above, however, I think this is a candidacy worth getting on board for; we’ll see where this notion takes me regarding the ones leading up to it.
Encarnación, with 424 homers and some big postseason moments, might seem to have a case as the next designated hitter after Ortiz. His career didn’t really take flight until his late 20s, however, and his 35.5 WAR is about 20 fewer than Ortiz, plus he hit just .216/.324/.360 in the postseason overall. It’s not happening for him any more than it is for Choo, Gordon, or Markakis, who fell 622 hits short of 3,000, finally laying a perennial hypothetical question to rest.
With no newcomers likely to be elected, this should be the opening for Sabathia, and possibly Jones. Given the scarcity of starting pitchers being elected, Sabathia’s milestones will carry the day. I think Jones, in the ninth year of his candidacy, will gain entry before Beltrán, though I expect the latter will be gathering some momentum by this point.
2027
Top newcomers: Buster Posey, Jon Lester, Brett Gardner, Kyle Seager, Ryan Zimmerman
Top holdovers: Beltrán, Utley, Hamels, Rodriguez
Most likely to be elected: Posey, Beltrán
Falling off: Omar Vizquel
Posey’s sudden retirement at age 34, after his strongest offensive performance in at least half a decade, left him with just 1,500 career hits, but his seven All-Star appearances, three championships, MVP, Rookie of the Year, and Gold Glove awards and 129 OPS+ make for a full enough resumé for Cooperstown; all that’s missing is watching him break down, and who really needs to see that? By JAWS, his 36.6 peak score is ninth all-time, nearly two full wins above the standard, and that’s without considering the impact of his elite pitch framing; he’s fifth in our version of the metric for the 2009-21 period, and second in that of Baseball Prospectus; in both, he’s just ahead of Molina, who caught roughly twice as many innings (though only 44% more in the window covered by our metric). Short career and all, I believe he’ll join Bench and Rodriguez on the ridiculously small list of catchers elected on their first ballot.
(Remember above where I said the first-ballot distinction is annoying? Some of that is because the BBWAA voters lost credibility in this area by not electing Yogi Berra, Gary Carter, and Piazza on the first go.)
Of the rest, the one who will generate significant discussion is Lester. With his 200 wins, three championship rings, and big-game reputation (9-7, 2.51 ERA in 154 postseason innings), his candidacy will get some attention, but his 43.4 WAR is about 15-17 lower than the Buehrle/Hudson/Pettitte trio; he’s 152nd in S-JAWS, 96 spots (and 12 points) below Sabathia. Gardner, Seager, and Zimmerman each spent their careers with one franchise and deserve their spots in the hearts of fans, but none had the value, the accomplishments, or the staying power to make a dent in Hall voting.
Though I undershot Beltrán’s first-year estimated share by about 10 percentage points in a poll conducted by the Ballot Tracker folks last year and thus bumped my estimate back a year in my candidate-by-candidate breakdown, the landscape here suggests this will be his time to gain entry. Meanwhile, you may have noticed that I made no mention of the trajectory of Vizquel. Allegations of multiple incidents of domestic violence against his wife and sexual harassment of an an autistic batboy led to him setting a modern record with a 25.2% drop on the 2022 ballot, from 49.1% to 23.9%, and he slipped to 19.5% this year. His situation is without parallel in the annals of Hall of Fame voting, and so given the lack of precedent, I have stuck to an assumption that he will remain a lower-tier candidate through his remaining eligibility, unable to regain the ground or the respect that he lost.
The relatively weak ballot will open an opportunity for all kinds of holdovers who have clung to the ballot in the lower reaches to take steps forward. I’d be surprised if any of them gets to 75% from the writers at all, but getting above 40% and creating some appeal as an Era Committee candidate is more attainable. Pettitte will be in his ninth year, Abreu his eighth, Buehrle his seventh, A-Rod and Jimmy Rollins their sixth. Utley, in his fourth year, and Hamels, in his second (barring a comeback), should be setting faster paces that give them hopes of bigger things from the writers… eventually.
2028
Top newcomers: Albert Pujols, Robinson Canó, David Price, Yadier Molina
Top holdovers: Utley, Hamels, Pettitte, Buehrle, Rodriguez
Most likely to be elected: Pujols, Molina
Falling off: Pettitte
The list of newcomers here assumes Zack Greinke returns to pitch either for Kansas City or for another team for 2023; either way, he’s generating some interest [Update: Shortly after this went live, Bob Fescoe of 610 Sports Radio in Kansasy City reported that the Royals would indeed sign him]. On the other side of the coin, I’d be surprised if the 40-year-old Canó makes it onto another major league roster after hitting a combined .150/.183/.190 in 104 PA while netting -1.5 WAR for three teams in 2022. He’ll make $24 million in the 10th and final year of his $240 million megadeal, most of it to be paid by the Mets, so I wouldn’t expect him to officially retire without collecting the money. An eight-time All-Star who collected 2,639 hits and 335 homers, he ranks seventh in JAWS among second basemen, but whether he debuts on the 2027 ballot or not, his Hall of Fame chances are as dead on arrival as those of Ramirez given his two PED suspensions, and 80-gamer in 2018 and a full season in ’21.
As for the other player who signed a 10-year, $240 million deal once upon a time, Pujols took one of the greatest victory laps in major league history in 2022, once his was done. Returning to St. Louis, the 42-year-old slugger hit 24 homers, his highest total since 2015, producing a 154 OPS+, pushing his career WAR back into triple digits (101.7), and making his 11th and final All-Star team. His big year helped him become just the fourth player to reach the 700-homer plateau (he finished with 703) and along the way, he climbed to 10th in hits (3,384). While it won’t erase all memories of his nine-plus years of diminishing returns in Anaheim, going out on a high note should goose Pujols’ share of the vote into the 98-99% range.
The celebration may well help Molina get to 75% by riding his coattails. A 10-time All-Star and nine-time Gold Glove winner, he earned a reputation as one of the game’s best pitch framers and staff handlers. We have metrics to back up the first of those assertions, in that he’s third in our version of framing runs dating back to 2008 (151), and fourth in BP’s version that goes back to 1988). As for the second, we have a lot of anecdotes as well as a count showing that he was a part of 13 playoff teams, the starter on two World series winners and one more pennant winner, but we don’t have a real means of quantifying that value in runs. He’s just 22nd in JAWS among catchers, well below all but three Hall of Famers, but as with Martin, McCann, and Posey above I don’t think off-the-shelf JAWS is the right thing to use; as noted above I have him fifth in my FanGraphs Framing-Inclusive JAWS. Combine that with the industry consensus of his future in Cooperstown and I think he’ll have enough momentum to get in.
As a former Cy Young winner (and two-time runner-up) who made five All-Star teams, pitched for nine playoff teams, and helped the Red Sox win a championship in 2018, Price certainly packed a lot into his 14-year career. Elbow problems and the pandemic limited him to just one 30-start season past his age-30 campaign, however, leaving him with 157 wins, a 123 ERA+, 40.1 WAR, and the no. 178 ranking in S-JAWS.
I don’t think anyone else will be close enough to gain entry in 2028, which leaves us with a total of 11 candidates elected over the five-year cycle, up one from last year’s outlook and the one before, though the names changed (I had some hope of Sheffield getting to 75% two years ago, and Posey wasn’t on the radar yet.
Either way, my projection includes three more honorees than the eight elected by the BBWAA from the 2019-23 span, and up from nine — a very tentative nine, counting Bonds and Clemens — when I ran this exercise following the 2020 election. The picture can change quickly with a couple of elections that shuffle things around.
Beyond the numbers, the relief of Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling no longer being the BBWAA’s problem should keep this process a bit more pleasant, and even make it downright exciting as we embrace and celebrate members of the 3,000 hit club, great backstops, and a few more comebacks from ballot oblivion. I’d still like to find a way to get more starting pitchers into the Hall, but we may have to wait for Greinke and his contemporaries to call it a day. Still, there’s fun to be had over the next five years.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
I could be wrong but I think Colon will get more support than expected.because of the 247 wins. There are not going to be many guys with substantially more wins than him any time in the near future and if he can stay on the ballot he is only going to look better and better as the years pass. I don’t think the writers ever put him in, but it isn’t impossible that they set him up for a good chance in some future committee because he isn’t worse than Baines or Kent, who many seem to think will get in.
No one can argue that I do look better and better as the years pass.
I think it would be an interesting case, but the PED suspension makes any marginal candidate dead on arrival.
Jamie Moyer didn’t have the decent peak that Colon had, but he won 269 games and was by all accounts a great character guy (Roberto Clemente Award) and he got 2.4%. I could see Colon beating that, but on a crowded ballot I can’t see him getting 5%. Has any marginal candidate with a PED suspension against him survived the first ballot?
Because he was a bit of a curiosity at that point and his PED suspension didn’t draw the same outrage, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Colon stick around on the ballot for several years, a la Andy Pettite and Mark Buehrle. Those 247 wins will definitely swing some voters to stick with him for much longer than you’d expect otherwise.
I think he’d be the only marginal candidate with an actual PED suspension, since Pettitte wasn’t actually suspended, and nor was Ortiz.
Considering how the non-Ortiz PED guys have fared, I just can’t see him getting any support.
He wasn’t anywhere near as good as the guys in the PED (Bonds, Clemens, etc. and really I feel silly putting Bonds and Colon in the same parentheses), nor was he as good as the other compiler types like Buehrle and Pettitte. I don’t think he gets 5%
Bartolo also has the most wins in MLB history for a Latin American-born pitcher, which may not carry him into the hall but deserves and warrants mention in every analysis of his career.
From 2004-2012 he also led the league in visits to Ryan’s Steakhouse for a Latin American-born player which also bears mentioning
Fun Fact Time!
From 1999-2005, the best 7-Year stretch of Todd Helton’s career, he had a 152 wRC+.
Gary Sheffield had a 153 wRC+ from 1992 to 2005.
He was so, so, so much better than Helton, and the only reason the career WAR numbers are close is TZ data that says he was a -15 OF from 25-32…while DRS and UZR have him at a -8 and -11, respectively, from 33-40.
I assume Sheffield is getting a non zero PED penalty, fairly or not
For sure – and there’s likely a non-zero role played by unconscious bias, as well.
This is why it’s a bit grating that Ortiz sailed in while Sheffield did not. I’m willing to overlook other people’s weirdness but literally every single voter who put Ortiz down should do the same for Sheffield. The difference between them is more or less that Sheffield did it for an extra 150 PAs and Ortiz is a nice guy and Sheffield was a jerk.
100% agree. Ortiz is only superior to Sheffield in marketing
Even more shocking, a nice guy with arguably more PED clouds.
Whoops I meant another 150 games! Still, same point.
I also think Sheff’s defensive rep is worse than he actually was and his early career dustups (which today would be called out as racial discrimination) were pinned to him by writers. I remember watching him in LA thinking he was the scariest hitter in the world and wondering why people wouldn’t cheer.
Even if Sheffield’s defense was worse than any metrics show, by default Ortiz’s defense was worse because he was a DH. Just by offense I’d think most people would say Sheffield is a hall of famer.
…which shouldn’t be the default assumption for a DH and just further proof that the Defensive WAR positional adjustment for DH is unfair and nonsensical. If both of them were forced to play the field most of the time, Ortiz very well might’ve been a better defender than Sheffield for all we know.
Dick Allen should be in the HOF. Gary Sheffield is pretty much the same guy, but with a longer period of success. He should be a no-brainer.
Of the newcomers you say are questionable I’d easily take Cole Hamels and I’d also take Jon Lester.
I love Jon Lester, but I think he is clearly behind Pettitte, Oswalt, King Felix, Hudson, Santana, and Buehrle, among others. Chris Sale already has more career bWAR than Lester and David Wells is over 10 WAR (both versions) ahead of Lester.
I feel strongly that Santana and King Felix are both Hall of Famers. In general, I feel strongly that the HoF should rate peak performance much, much, much more highly…especially for starting pitchers in the modern era.
This is the reason to have voters. Some will value career accomplishments, some career over a higher bar than replacement and some will value peak. Some will give credit for good FIP and WPA and postseason and others less so.
Lester’s case is largely based on postseason. If a voter doesn’t put much value on that, his case is weaker than those you mentioned. I’d easily support Sale as well.
Sale doesn’t have to do a whole lot to be among my favorite Future candidates. Peak Sale was as dominant, durable, and consistent in the league, and then he came back from TJ averaging 95 last year. What a talent
As it stands, Sale is in the Ron Guidry/Johan Santana zone…great peak, but not at the Koufax level where he can get in just on his peak. I’m rooting for him to come back and have a Sabathia-type run in his 30s, which should make him a shoo-in.
Funny enough, Cole Hamels isn’t even retired! He’s still trying to make a comeback.
But…no, I’ll take Buehrle over all these guys, and there’s no actual reason for Buehrle to get in either.
I think there’s a reasonable argument to reformulate the “Normal” HoF SP as being in the Pettitte/Hudson/Buehrle/Hamels/Sabathia/Cone range, with the Big Four as Inner-Circle outliers.
I would argue Sabathia is quite a bit higher than the rest of those guys, especially considering that Sabathia’s career overlapped much more with declines in starter usage.
Sabathia will make it, but if you don’t lighten your requirements for the Hall, you’ll go from Pedro to the current big four with only two starting pitchers getting in, and after the big four, you might have another long (forever?) stretch without some change (what will be done with deGrom if he retires with 136 wins, hypothetically?)
I think there’s going to be a bit of a reckoning about what sorts of career stats we should expect out of starting pitchers after the elite pitchers who debuted in the ’00s. Sabathia and Verlander and Greinke are locks, as are Scherzer and Kershaw. They are the last set of pitchers who have both the career and peak WAR totals that we would expect from Hall of Famers. Maybe Hernandez too, but I’d say he’s probably the borderline for me. I’d say that he’s a useful line for who is a Hall of Famer and who isn’t.
After that…it’s hard to imagine anyone putting up 50+ starting pitching WAR because the starters don’t pitch enough. Of pitchers who started their career in 2010 or later, we have:
-Chris Sale, who would have had a shot had he not blown out his arm
-Corey Kluber, who would have had a shot if he hadn’t blown out his arm
-Jacob deGrom, who would have had a shot if he had pitched more than 150ish innings over the last couple of years and if we had any confidence he would continue to pitch in the future
-Gerrit Cole, whose monster 2019 looks like it was fueled by sticky stuff
If we move to 2014 or later, we get:
-Aaron Nola, who may be the only single guy currently in his 20s who has a shot at getting to that 50+ WAR level (roughly 30 fWAR before age 30)
-Noah Syndergaard, who could have made it had he not blown out his arm
-Shane Bieber, who is only 28 next year but needs to have several more 2022-type years but his velocity is declining
-Carlos Rodon, who is a bit of a late bloomer but if he keeps putting up 5+ win seasons for the next 5-7 years has a shot
We may have to seriously re-evaluate what a Hall of Fame starter looks like 10+ years from now.
Don’t laugh, but if Zack Wheeler keeps up this trajectory (a pretty significant it, I know) he might have the best shot to get to 50 WAR
Fair…although Hamels is closer to CC than you might think, and he debuted five years later.
59 rWAR/62 RA9 WAR, 37.5/40 WAR7, on 700 fewer innings than CC (600 fewer than MB, 400 fewer than TH, 650 fewer than Andy).
I think he beats the “Better than Buehrle” threshold – he just spent the last 7 years of his career on irrelevant teams, haha.
I totally buy the Better Than Buehrle threshhold. The trickier ones are the “Same as Buehrle”, e.g. Tim Hudson, and of course Buehrle himself.
This is a lot like the Better Than Bando (RIP) threshhold I’ve used for position players – I came up with this as a way to communicate why Ron Santo should have been a no-brainer (ditto for Rolen), but guys like Nettles, Boyer etc. that fall into the “Same as Bando” zone are the tougher ones to sort out.
Nettles’ JAWS is closer to Rolen’s than Bando’s!
#NettlesForever, haha
I don’t see Sabathia as at all borderline. He should make it and will.
The reason for Buehrle to make it (and Johan Santana) is so that there are more starting pitchers than failed starting pitchers errrrr closers from the meat of the steroid era in the hall of fame.
Wagner and Pap and Chapman certainly never “failed” as starting pitchers.
They were top prospects who were added to the bullpen temporarily…and were so immediately dominant that they never moved back.
Johan should straight up be in, though.
Prediction for Johan – (a) his career totals are too low for him to get in during the 10 years on the regular ballot, and (b) once he’s eligible for a Veterans Committee vote, he’ll get in with ease because there would be at least 2 or 3 hitters on that committee going ballistic about how impossible he was to hit against (it doesn’t hurt that peak Johan pitched in both leagues).
Yes I’d have to wait until he actually retires to argue his HOF case.
If Hamels can get back to 2019 form for a cheeky year or two, I think he’s a clear cut HoF.
I don’t think Cole Hamels stumbling to a 2 WAR season this year has any impact, and nor should it. His candidacy comes down to how you weigh his peak
He’s currently 3.6 career rWAR away from 50 JAWS, a threshold Jay frequently cites.
He is, very specifically at a place where a “Late Career Buehrle” season or two will have a high impact, haha.
That 2025 ballot will be interesting. Ichiro and CC clearly belong and then there are 7(!) candidates in King Felix, Martin, McCann, Kinsler, Pedroia, Tulo, and Zobrist in the zone of probably not Hall of Famers, but all stronger candidates IMO than Vizquel, Torii Hunter, or K-Rod. I feel like they all 7 probably deserve 5% and a second chance, but I don’t really think any of them quite measure up as Hall worthy. Although I could possibly change my mind on Martin.
The key difference between all of those guys and the Vizquel, Hunter, K-Rod triumvirate is longevity. They are all short career high peak candidates and those types tend to fall off the ballot rather quickly (Santana, Berkman, Edmonds, Garciaparra).
Well, that’s a very big difference. Longevity really matters as part of players’ candidacies for the Hall.
Meanwhile, Jim Edmonds still had a 16+ year career. While that’s shorter than a lot of Hall of Fame careers, I still wouldn’t classify him as having had a short career by Hall standards nor a major reason why he fell off in his first ballot.
Edmonds got jobbed because of the 2000 hit rule, but he’s a clear cut above the other three.
(And Jones)
Edmonds also was the odd man out on possibly the most stacked ballot in HoF history. That ballot had 11 current HoFers on it (including Griffey, comparisons to whom did Jimmy no favors), plus Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Sheffield, Sosa, Kent, and Wagner. Basically 20 players with strong cases for induction.
I suppose short isn’t the best descriptor, but he had less than 8,000 PA, which is part of why he came up short of 2,000 hits and 400 HR. Other HOFers around that PA total are guys like Larry Walker, Duke Snider, Minnie Minoso, and Gil Hodges who all faced a lot of obstacles on their path in.
I suspect total PA is about as closely correlated with HOF induction as career WAR.
So, I don’t think Billy Wagner is a Hall of Famer. I understand why some people do, but there are basically only 3 relievers who I think are Hall of Fame worthy. They just don’t pitch enough. But I’m going to use Billy Wagner as an example anyways, because he’s the most convenient example.
On the Ballot Tracker, there are about 50 voters who didn’t vote for Billy Wagner. Of those, something like ten of them voted for 9 or 10 candidates. Those guys might not vote for Wagner next year, simply because they want to vote for some set of Beltre / Mauer / Utley. But the rest of them typically voted for 4-6 players on the ballot. So…what is the mechanism that we think happens to convince some (or any) of the other 40 or so to fill out Wagner next year, when they could have done it this year but didn’t? Is it peer pressure? Is it a careful reevaluation of the facts? Is it because they literally don’t care enough to remember from year to year and next year’s whims will be different? Is it because they have a personal limit of 6 votes or something?
Maybe increased focus on the fact that teams value relief aces at a much higher $/WAR than they do starters, indicating that public WAR models’ valuations of the position are fundamentally flawed?
…plus a healthy dose of herd mentality, given Wagner’s recent increases, and not wanting to be “the guy” who keeps him out, when he’s going in on the first Era Committee ballot he makes.
Is there any data to back that up? Edwin Diaz just got $18.6M/year about the same thing as Taijuan Walker and Jameson Taillon, who I’d describe as 3rd starters and all of whom are ~2.5 WAR pitchers.
IIRC, Jansen and Chapman’s deals a few years ago were on par with good 3rd starters. The Cubs gave Tyler Chatwood (yuck!) 3/$38M and a couple years later gave closer Craig Kimbrel 3/$43M.
TBH, salary is probably the best argument AGAINST closers belonging in the Hall of Fame.
One data point is that Diaz actually got 5/$102m, haha!
Luis Castillo, who’s been worth about twice as much WAR whether you go 3, 4, or 5 years, got 5/$108m.
And, for reference:
Wagner’s *career* ERA- is 5 points lower than what Edwin’s has been since 2020 (same differential as Price and Halladay).
So we have 15 years of Wagner being firmly better than a guy currently being paid like a 4-ish win pitcher.
Going along with the group, taking another closer look, time for them running out, and maybe feeling sorry for the guy being so close. Those are four possibilities.
I feel like once you’ve voted for someone, you’ll stick with them, ballot space issues aside, but anyone you haven’t voted for is an opportunity for you to be convinced that they do belong.
I definitely agree with you on Wagner. I see the argument that “teams treat closer as a different position than starter so the hall should too.” But they treat 4th outfielders as a position that gets paid decently and every team has a utility infielder and some of those guys get paid. None of those guys make the Hall and I fail to see how Wagner is any more worthy than say Ben Zobrist.
Can I get a citation for 4th OFs and UTILs who “get paid decently,” haha?
Rather, what does “decently” mean in this framework?
Relievers get paid more than DHs in FA.
DJ LeMahieu gets paid to be a utility infielder, around the same as a closer, and the Mets were looking to spend on a 4th outfielder, ran out of players and still ended up spending $7,000,000 on Pham. These aren’t standard, obviously, but every team isn’t spending $15,000,000 on a closer either.
Also, sticking with Zobrist and Wagner, Zobrist made about 5 mil less than Wagner over a career that was 1-2 seasons fewer than Wagner. Now when you adjust for inflation Wagner comes out a little more ahead, but not enough that one likely is in the Hall and the other is likely to be 1 and done.
Oh, let’s talk inflation.
When Wagner signed his first extension, 7/$120m got you Jason Giambi (the 9 WAR/.470 wOBA version).
When he signed his first FA deal, 7/$119m got you Carlos Beltran (the 28 year old, 6.5 WAR, postseason hero version).
(He also got 2 more years than Hoffman, on a 60% higher AAV).
When Zobrist signed his Cubs deal, Justin Upton (the post-hype, 3.5 WAR version) cost 6/$133m.
So, yeah. Even with Zobrist having signed a Rays Special, their having similar career earnings tells us that Wagner was viewed by the league as on a very, very different level.
Hell, Wagner got roughly the same deal as Mike Cameron in 2010, coming off a mostly-lost season, while Cameron was coming off consecutive 4 WAR campaigns.
Yeah…that’s not what the term “utility infielder” means, haha.
LeMahieu is a full-time starter with positional flexibility, a la Zobrist or Chris Taylor (or Arraez, or Cronenworth, or Edman, etc.)…and he signed that deal coming off a 3rd Place MVP finish where he led the AL in wRC+.
Pham, who I agree stands out as a major outlier, got $6m…the same as Brad Hand, the 32nd highest paid reliever, who totaled 0.2 WAR over the last two seasons.
But LeMahieu is a utility infielder. He serves as backup everywhere but shortstop, if he stays healthy he will get about 550 maybe 600 PAs. He is an outlier utility infielder similar to a HoF closer but he will never come close the the Hall even though teams currently value him similarly to a HoF caliber closer and his career WAR is going to end up around or better than many of the closers who are in. It doesn’t make any real sense.
In 2021 (the first year of LeMahieu’s current deal) he had the 10th most PA in baseball. Since 2014 he is 12th in MLB in PA. He is a starter and has been for a decade, the fact that he doesn’t solely play one position doesn’t make him equivalent to a bench player.
What on earth are you talking about, haha?
You do realize that literally everyone in this comment section can look at DJLM’s FG page, right?
LeMahieu last had fewer than 650 PA/150 Games in 2014, haha!
I mean, Jesus H. Christ – do you think Aaron Judge is a “Backup OF” because he plays both RF and CF, haha?
Your not ranking Wagner in the Hall stands as a mark in his favor.
You’re hurting your own argument here with that PA number. No mere backup is guaranteed to make 550 PAs based solely on his own health. He’s only truly a backup/utility player if you can say he won’t even get 400 PA if he *and* the rest of his team’s infield all stay healthy.
But they certainly do spend $15M+/year on the *best* relievers, the ones who actually do have a shot at the Hall.
My argument has been that it really comes down to three guys: Rivera (an absolute freak of nature, having put up 38+ fWAR), Eckersley (who is about 50% of a Hall of Fame caliber closer on top of his contributions as a starter, plus historical reasons), and Gossage (who pitched a lot). There’s some value in considering that relievers should get extra credit for pitching high leverage innings, but some of that is already built into WAR and you have to come up with some crazy multipliers to make it make sense.
Ditto, except I’d also look at Hoyt Wilhelm at HOF worthy.
Ya I’d put Wilhelm over Gossage
Crazy multipliers…like the ones that would have to be involved in offering Kenley Jansen 2/$32m, while not matching Eovaldi at 2/$34m, despite the latter being two years younger and having double the WAR over the previous three seasons?
So, do you:
A) Think that the public models are better than the Red Sox’s internal ones (presumably fortified by Bloom’s knowledge of the Rays’)?
B) Think that Bloom is just a wild and profligate spender, who thinks his roster is one closer away from the WS, and was willing to pay whatever it took to land that last piece?
C) Think that the public available WAR models are years behind proprietary ones, in terms of properly valuing the impact of relief aces, and we therefore should apply a “crazy multiplier” to their career WAR values when discussing the Hall?
I know which one I’m going with, haha!
My guess is actually D. Teams know that closers are overpaid but also know that it causes a lot of stress on their managers and so pay a premium to keep the manager from over thinking the 9th inning situation.
And that’s why the Braves acquired Raisel Iglesias last year, while already paying Jansen $16m!
Must be down to “keeping it simple” for Snitker, haha.
Overpaying closers is also about the playoffs. Of course, that doesn’t really help Wagner’s case since he was dreadfully bad in the playoffs.
D) Relief aces provide a lot of value that just can’t be captured by statistical models like WAR, and the roles are so different that there is simply no possible way to do a realistic value comparison between starting and relief pitchers.
This seems inaccurate for many reasons, not the least of which is that in the most important games (e.g., WS), teams use their starters as relievers/closers
*Teams without relief aces use their aces as relievers/closers.
John Smoltz spent four prime years as a reliever, and managed a a 58 ERA- in 260 innings.
Wagner had a 53 ERA- during that span, and a 54 ERA- on his career.
I don’t think that their value “can’t” be captured by a statistical model, or be compared to starters’.
I just think that the publicly available models aren’t able to do so, yet.
It’s like they’re at the “DRC+” level (look it up, it’s silly), while MLB teams are using xwOBA.
I don’t really see the relevance here. The contracts for closers reflect the increasing usage of relievers in all sorts of important high-leverage situations, something which was only true to a very limited extent during Wagner’s time. It also reflects the expected value for one year, as opposed to over someone’s multi-year career. It’s entirely possible that Kenley Jansen will have a case given the context of the era that he’s in, or Edwin Diaz will (either could also just pitch forever too and thus have careers notably better than Wagner, that’s another route).
Billy Wagner had a career fWAR of 24.0, and that’s with leverage adjustments already factored in. If you want to argue that his true contributions to MLB are literally more than double that–to get him to the point where he’d be in range of starting pitchers that are Hall-worthy–I think that’s where I’d respectfully disagree.
Wagner is, very specifically, a terrible person against whom to use that argument, haha.
Only 54% of his career appearances came in save situations – as a point of reference, Rivera, Hoffman, and Kimbrel are at 63%, while Jansen and Diaz are at 57%. Eckersley himself is at 62% as a reliever, and that only includes his losses as Blown Saves!
Further, as someone who believes Johan Santana was more valuable than Javier Vazquez and that Matt Cain and Jered Weaver were better than Ricky Nolasco on a rate basis…I don’t particularly truck with fWAR to measure career pitching performance.
At a 900 inning sample size, I just like to roll with RA9-WAR, which doesn’t include any TZ crap, which puts Wagner at 30.
Maybe it makes me a big hall guy, but if you can only find space for three guys at a particular position/role, it feels under represented to me.
And yes, “closer” isn’t a position, but I’d argue that the general baseball fandom public thinks of it as one and so it should be treated as such for purposes such as the hall.
Why do you think most of fandom thinks “closer” is a position?
Yeah that’s the thing. I don’t think it’s a position. It’s a role, and sometimes someone can be so awesome at it that they are Hall worthy. But most of the time, they’re not. Maybe with the way the role of a reliever has changed in the last 5 years or so we’re in a different situation, but that doesn’t really apply to Wagner’s time.
Your usage of “utility infielder” is so atypical that everyone missed your point. Zobrist is >> Wagner in terms of contributions to his team winning.
By virtue of his career path, Zobrist really didn’t extract salary anywhere near in line with his value. But he’s still an example of a good player who got paid about the same as closers did.
Zobrist was great!
If he had played at the level that got him his “Top Closer” money from the Cubs for 15 years instead of 8…he’d be a clear cut HoF, on the merits!
I think the bar was set with Trevor Hoffman’s getting into the Hall. Once you’ve extended the eligibility to one-inning closers other than Rivera (who was ridiculously ahead of the others in this group), you start to look at guys like Wagner, Lee Smith, etc. in a different light, and people naturally look at the saves leader board as a starting point for discussion. Then, the transitive property starts to creep in, and next thing you know you’re debating the merits of the Joe Nathans and Jeff Reardons of the world – even though few people ever saw them as future Hall of Famers.
So I think Wagner is simply riding on the wave that was kicked off by Hoffman’s induction, simply because he’s close enough to truly be on his coattails.
Agree with this. Once Hoffman is in, I think you have to look at guys like Wagner. I’d put in Wagner before I put in Hoffman for the simple fact that Wagner was better, even though Hoffman has the saves record.
Hell – Wagner made more than Hoffman on his career, despite playing two fewer seasons.
It’s less that Wagner’s “riding Hoffman’s coattails” than that people are realizing how much better Wagner was than Hoffman at pitching.
seems like Utley + Hamels might be a storyline in coming years (their work in Philly) similar to Jones + Beltrán (two CFers highlighting one another’s excellence). would be nice for each of those duos to be elected together.
“ I’m hopeful that with an electorate sophisticated enough not to rely solely on career totals as a yardstick, he’ll receive substantial support….” Oh the optimism..
Jones only has 50 more hits, and he just cracked 50%.
More to the point…the voters get younger every year.
Chase Utley’s career stat line is so eerily similar to Lou Whitaker’s and Bobby Grich’s that I’m convinced that both a) he belongs in the HOF and b) it will take a long, long time for him to get there.
He seems to have more internet support than Whitaker and Grich did, because…you know
Because the internet wasn’t around when Grich was on the ballot & barely around when Whitaker was!
Yes: Beltre, Mauer, Sheffield
No: the rest. Helton will probably get in, but watching him play he just didn’t look like a HOFer. Utley, dirty player. Jones, domestic abuse and he was crap after 30. Wagner, some great years, but terrible in the post season. Wouldn’t have voted for Hoffman either.
We’re all entitled to our opinions, but “didn’t look like a HOFer” is often just a rationalization of the fact that the speaker only realized the player was HOF-caliber long after they played, but not wanting to admit that.
54.9 WAR for a non-catcher position player feels light. And his power disappeared after they started testing for steroids.
Could be open to persuasion, but he was a bad fielder, too.
Helton was a very good fielder at first. He is top 20 all-time in fielding runs at 1B. The low defense value you are seeing is with the positional adjustment included.
The tone isn’t great, but the larger position of the OP is defensible. Utley is pretty much the definition of a borderline guy. Helton and Jones by WAR standards are below it. If relievers below the best of all time (Rivera) are going to be in then Wagner should be in, but I can also understand keeping them all out. Personally I probably would too.
Re: the Yes’s, Beltre and Mauer are obvious HOFers. Sheffield is also a borderline guy, but has the benefit of hitting a big round number (500 HRs).
Wagner only pitched 11.2 innings in the playoffs.
I am really looking forward to the Mike Trout was overrated because he was awful in the playoffs.
I’d love to see an alternate universe where Pujols puts up the exact same WAR figures during the regular season, but the Angels make the playoffs 2014-2021, and he just destroys the baseball every postseason. Like… what do you do with a HOF guy, who’s terrible during the regular season, but hits 400 in the playoffs over a seven year sample?
Pujols was still pretty good until 2016. He was even an All-Star who hit 40 HRs in 2015.
Calm down. No one mentioned Trout.
One could make a fair argument that more than one pitcher on most staffs can close during the season, but that playoffs are a different matter.
Wagner, with his low amount of innings, needed to sparkle in big moments. And didn’t.
It’s a little amazing to me that Helton is basically in, while John Olerud was off the ballot with less than 1% in his first year (Four votes! John Franco got 27, and he never had a 2 WAR season.) They have pretty much the same qualifications. I think you can make a reasonable argument that they should both be in or both not be in, but it’s hard to make a case for one but not the other.
I think it comes down to the changing electorate. It is wild that Olerud got fewer votes than Tino Martinez though. We need to remember that for most of baseball history, the voters were only looking at hits, BA, HR, and RBI and basically nothing else. That cull of the retired/non-active voters in 2015 was huge for players like Helton and Rolen.
The strangest one for me was the 2013 ballot when Kenny Lofton was one and done, receiving 18 votes. Guess who got 16 votes that year? Lofton’s long-time teammate Sandy Alomar. Alomar was a decent player but he only had 13-14 career WAR and didn’t even reach 5,000 career PAs. How does he end up with nearly the same number of votes as Lofton???
Lofton’s another guy who’s close to the border one way or the other and definitely didn’t get the real look he deserved.
John Olerud is the career OBP leader for two separate franchises. Just saying…
Olerud was a modern day (well 20y ago) Keith Hernandez. It is incredible no one talks about Olerud. It’s a good example of how being (relatively) loud can keep your name in peoples heads (for better or worse).
It’s Olerud’s own fault for not spending enough time with Ken Caminiti to suddenly become Frank Thomas at age-26, haha!
But yeah, he’s definitely a guy who was deeply hurt by playing in the steroid era – he spent 14 years as Freddie Freeman with Gold Glove defense…but in a run-environment where a .373 wOBA was good for a 116 wRC+.
You don’t think Pujols has a shot at unanimous selection?
Much like Ichiro, if someone didn’t vote for Pujols I would seriously question their soundness of mind. If you’re like me and think that typically “the greatest” players all played after integration, the Pujols is quite likely the best first baseman in baseball history.
Rightly or wrongly (read: wrongly) there may be a voter or three that are like “that guy was older than he claimed to be, I just know it! That’s enough for me!!”
I firmly believe Albert Pujols when he told us that he’s 3 or 4 years younger than Octavio Dotel, and that he turned 13 in 1990!
Also, anyone who doesn’t vote for him is a clown, haha.
Fans consider Yadier Molina a future Hall of Famer based more on his throwing and blocking abilities compared to his pitch framing, although it’s also the whole package of amazing catcher’s defense in all areas along with his leadership, game calling, durability behind the plate, 2 Championships, and reasonable offensive numbers (including 2000+ hits), although I don’t believe he’ll get in on his first ballot.
Anyway, the point is that pitch framing is only a minor factor in Molina’s Hall of Fame candidacy, so comparing McCann and Martin in just that one area doesn’t make much sense.
I came to mention the same thing. Yadi’s arm is at least top-three all-time.
Much like how quarterbacks don’t throw to receivers being covered by the NFL’s greatest cornerbacks, I haven’t seen a great stat to quantify the chances not taken against Yadi compared to others.
The one stat I saw was shocking, but people didn’t want to attribute the “lack of stolen base attempts compared to average” to the catcher.
I don’t know. I just think throwing, blocking, game calling, and other attributes are just as important as pitch framing.
I’ve always liked that one chart showing stolen bases surrendered by team during Yadi’s tenure as the Cardinals’ primary catcher. The Cardinals are in first place by an extremely wide margin.
This still leaves out some factors (most notably that the stolen base attempts not taken are in general the ones that would be easier to throw out), but something you could do to get a general baseline for how lack of stolen base attempts ties into a catcher’s caught stealing percentage would simply be the following: Stolen Bases Allowed / Defensive Innings Caught
So, for example:
Yogi Berra – 426 / 14346 1/3 = 0.02969
Yadier Molina – 565 / 18294 2/3 = 0.03088
Ivan Rodriguez – 786 / 20348 = 0.03863
Johnny Bench – 610 / 14487 2/3 = 0.04210
Buster Posey – 521 / 9291 2/3 = 0.05607
José Molina – 390 / 6827 = 0.05713
Bob Boone – 1108 / 18459 = 0.06002
Bengie Molina – 680 / 10745 = 0.06329
We can then go a step further and normalize it for the eras in which they played, which we can call wSB/Inn- with the following examples (100 is league average, while lower is still better):
Y. Molina – 50.3
Bench – 57.1
Boone – 78.6
Berra – 86.7
Note that Berra ranks significantly worse this time, as there just weren’t as many stolen bases or attempts in general back in the 50s compared to even today.
The other thing is from the last 17-18 years, we already have Mauer & Posey that should get in. Molina will, too. Add in McCann & Martin & that’s 5 catchers that all played in 15 year period. IMO, that’s likely too much unless we’re very sure that all 5 were great.
& I am VERY hesitant to use pitch framing data, which was in it’s nascent stages, to bump up McCann & Martin, who wouldn’t be close to the HOF without it. I also think we don’t fully understand how much pitcher command can play into framing #’s.
I’m not for getting mnore catchers into the HOF..just not sure it starts with McCann & Martin being bumped due to pitch framing #’s.
A question I asked myself a lot this year (more so this year than any year past) is “Who is the Hall of Fame for?” Is it for the best of the best players? Is it for fans? Is it for any and all players? Is it a museum?
I ask that as several factors get hyped up each and every year:
Some similar questions thankfully seem to have been answered by a majority of the electorate (namely, “can a Coors Field hitter be a Hall of Famer”/”Can the Colorado Rockies have a Hall of Fame player”) but the others are so convoluted that I don’t necessarily know the answer.
Like, the standards for a Hall of Fame starting pitcher are very high – so are there just no players right now who are Hall of Fame pitchers besides the Big Four + Sabathia? Do we just accept that? Are there no great pitchers now? And if so, what does that say about a Hall of Fame?
I don’t know that there are answers to some of these questions, and there are some (fairly) obvious answers to others here. I just know that this year, given the “light” ballot, I found myself with more time to ask these questions, and am curious if others found themselves asking something similar?
…
tl;dr: Who is the Hall of Fame for?
If I were in charge of it it would be for the museum visitors, plus whomever else I could get fame and money from by building its brand. Virtual reality lets you face Christy Mathewson and pitch to Josh Gibson. It would be nothing like it is now.
“ One argument against Todd Helton being a Hall of Famer is that his statistics, although impressive, do not stand out as overwhelmingly better than other players at his position. He has a career batting average of .316, 2,519 hits, 369 home runs and 1,406 RBIs, which are solid numbers, but do not necessarily put him in the same class as other players who have been inducted into the Hall of Fame. Additionally, he played the majority of his career during an era of high offense, which may have inflated his numbers relative to other players from different eras.”
ChatGPT weighs in against Todd Helton
I can’t wait till our robot overlords decide who belongs in the HOF!!!
Fwiw I asked about Schilling and the AI invoked the character clause!
I asked ChatGPT for the case against Andruw Jones a couple days ago and it cited his 0 MVPs or Gold Gloves.
ChatGPT is amazing at making totally false things sound correct. It turns out if you create a computer program with the language abilities of a human but without a human conscience it is an amazing liar.
Oh yeah, it is incredible. I have been entertaining myself by asking it to write nonsense papers like “An Existentialist Take on Dude Where’s My Car” and it sounds erudite but is gobbledygook.
For what it’s worth it turned down my request for a Transcendentalist paper on Kung Pao: Enter the Fist because it didn’t want to offend transcendentalists
lol!!!!
That’s funny because I asked ChatGPT to “give me a bad argument against Helton’s hall of fame induction” and it told me “a bad argument would be that he never won MVP”
Ben Zobrist is yet another player with a higher peak than Lou Whitaker, everybody’s favorite non-HOF.
Also with higher career peaks than Whitaker: Utley, Pedroia, Kinlser. So all the 2Bs listed were better in their peaks than Whitaker.
It’s a shame Kinsler and Pedroia only spent 9 and 10 seasons (respectively) as plus starters, as opposed to Lou’s 15.
Utley also only managed 10 seasons as a plus starter…but his fifth best season was quite a bit better than Pedroia or Kinsler ever managed.
Lou Whitaker is not my favorite non-HOF. I have other favorites.
Ben Zobrist was fucking awesome for 4 years and quite good for 5.
Whitaker was fucking awesome for 5 years and quite good for 10.
The Jeter “troll” is most likely SD writer Nick Canepa, who just didn’t realize Jeter was on the ballot (he said he planned to vote for him years after he hadn’t the year Jeter got in): https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3402183/mlb-hall-of-fame-voter-nick-canepa-who-hasnt-voted-for-someone-in-2-years-is-unaware-derek-jeter-is-already-in-the-hof
With Greinke still playing, I wonder if Kershaw overtakes him in career K (they’re likely to finish 19th-20th all time atm)
Trout for Yadi, straight up?
I’m looking forward to Miguel Cabrera being included in your five year outlook next year.
I think Beltran will get in sooner than predicted above, It’s entirely possible that many voters have decided they need to apply the same standard they do to Clemens and Bonds — that the cheating or “cheating” is disqualifying — and perhaps Beltran never gains much support. But, rational or note, I suspect a lot of voters just withheld first year support and/or didn’t want Beltran to be the ONLY inductee. With Beltré a slam dunk and some chance of Helton, Wagner, Mauer, it’s easier to include Beltran next year.
On a separate topic, as starting pitchers pitch less and less — fewer starts, fewer innings per start, fewer seasons — they clearly become less valuable both at a season and career level. Is it reasonable to continue to induct them at the same rate, essentially lowering the bar? I.e., should we induct the best players or the best at each position? I.e., does it make sense to induct 30-40 WAR players who were the best at their position in their era even though far, far below JAWS standard.