Heavy Hitters Ahead: The Next Five Years of BBWAA Hall of Fame Elections

Darren Yamashita-USA TODAY Sports

The following article is part of Jay Jaffe’s ongoing look at the candidates on the BBWAA 2024 Hall of Fame ballot. For a detailed introduction to this year’s ballot, and other candidates in the series, use the tool above; an introduction to JAWS can be found here. For a tentative schedule, see here. All WAR figures refer to the Baseball-Reference version unless otherwise indicated.

Last week, we learned that for the first time since 2020, BBWAA voters elected multiple players to the Hall of Fame. In fact the trio of Adrián Beltré, Todd Helton, and Joe Mauer outnumbers the total number of players elected to the Hall over the last three cycles. For as underwhelming as those recent top-line results may have been, they concealed the steady gains made by a handful of down-ballot candidates, including last year’s lone honoree, Scott Rolen, as well as Helton, each of whom was elected in his sixth year of eligibility after debuting with a share of the vote that in past eras suggested they had no hope of election via the writers. With three returning candidates for 2025 having received over 50% of the vote, and with some impressive newcomers poised to join them, it’s time to look ahead to what the next five ballots have in store.

This is the 11th time I’ve broken out my crystal ball in such a manner, dating back to the wrap-up of my 2014 election coverage at SI.com. With this edition, I’ve now done this more times at FanGraphs than SI. That first edition was so long ago that candidates still had 15 years of eligibility instead of 10, and so I could afford to project Tim Raines for election in 2018, his 11th year of eligibility. The Hall’s unilateral decision to truncate candidacies to 10 years would come just months later, though thankfully voters accelerated their acceptance of Raines, who was elected in 2017.

This exercise has always been more art than science, requiring some amount of imagination and speculation. Changes to the election process over the past decade have rendered some of my research into the candidates and the history and mechanics of the voting less useful for prognostication purposes. The dynamics of Hall candidacies have certainly changed, as evidenced by Helton and Rolen. From 1966 to 2005, only three candidates recovered from debuts below 25% and eventually reached 75%, even with 15 years of eligibility: Duke Snider (17.0% in 1970, elected in ’81), Don Drysdale (21.0% in 1975, elected in ’84) and Billy Williams (23.4% in 1982, elected in ’87). With Helton’s election, we’ve now seen seven players elected despite such slow starts, including three from 2017-23. From the 15-year eligibility period came Bruce Sutter (23.9% in 1994, elected in 2006) and Bert Blyleven (17.5% in 1998, elected in 2011), and then once the eligibility window was shortened — less to clean up the ballots than to try moving the intractable debate over PED-related candidates out of the spotlight, and give voters less time to soften their attitudes — Raines (24.3% in 2008, elected in ’17), Mike Mussina (20.3% in 2014, elected in ’19), Larry Walker (20.3% in ’11, elected in ’20), Rolen (10.2% in 2018, the lowest debut share of any modern candidate elected by the writers) and now Helton (16.5% in 2019). This group could have company as soon as next year given that Billy Wagner (10.5% in 2016) missed election by just five votes.

Revising this annually is a necessity because I am routinely wrong, sometimes happily so, as in those instances where I’ve underestimated how quickly a given candidate might gain entry. Circa 2019, I estimated that David Ortiz would need until ’23 to gain entry, and didn’t foresee Rolen getting elected within five years. A year later, I projected Rolen to gain entry in 2025. In 2022 and ’23, I projected Mauer for ’25 election. On the other hand, in 2019 and ’20 I still believed — albeit with some caveats — that Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling stood at least some chance of election before their window closed. Regardless of which direction it goes, every incorrect assumption has a ripple effect. The presence of a high-share holdover means less space for and less attention paid to the mid-ballot guys, so clearing one from the ballot can have ramifications that won’t be felt for a few years; likewise, a more rapid election than predicted can accelerate other candidates’ timelines.

For the sake of this exercise, I am assuming that the basic mechanics of these elections will remain in place: 10 votes per ballot, with a 5% minimum to avoid falling off, and 10 years of eligibility for new candidates. Note that each ballot’s year refers to the year of induction; that ballot is released in November of the previous year, with ballots due on December 31. To be eligible, a candidate must not have played in the majors for five full seasons, but his eligibility year will actually be six years after his last appearance.

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2025

Top newcomers: Ichiro Suzuki, CC Sabathia, Dustin Pedroia, Ian Kinsler, Félix Hernández, Troy Tulowitzki, Ben Zobrist, Russell Martin, Brian McCann,
Top holdovers: Wagner, Carlos Beltrán, Andruw Jones
Most likely to be elected: Suzuki, Sabathia, Wagner

As a subset of the already-annoying “first ballot” distinction, the debate surrounding electoral unanimity is silly. A Hall of Famer is a Hall of Famer, and they don’t put a special ribbon or even a mention of getting 100% of the vote on the plaque. But if any upcoming candidate has a shot, it’s Ichiro, who racked up 3,089 hits stateside despite not debuting until age 27. Yes, he finished with just a 107 OPS+, 60 WAR, and 51.9 JAWS (17th among right fielders), but some of that is the result of his belated arrival. He spent a good chunk of his peak in Japan, but still won an MVP award and two batting titles while peeling off 10 straight All-Star/Gold Glove seasons and totaling 54.8 WAR, including 94 fielding runs, in that span. He would have been eligible for the 2024 ballot, but his season-opening two-game cameo in Japan in 2019 pushed his eligibility back a year.

What I think the nitpickers miss about Ichiro and the possibility of unanimity is an appeal that goes beyond the numbers. From Bill James onward, statheads have spent the past 40-some years downplaying the importance of batting average relative to other offensive stats, but writing The Cooperstown Casebook gave me a new appreciation for just how broadly respected and beloved the hit kings have been throughout the game’s history. Nobody gives the fans more opportunities to cheer or creates more action than a guy hitting well above .300, and nobody is an easier call for most voters, hence the outsized shares of players such as Derek Jeter (99.1% in 2020, currently second all-time) and Tony Gwynn (97.6% in 2007, seventh-highest at that point and still 10th) relative to the sluggers of their era.

That Ichiro served as such a groundbreaking international ambassador for baseball within that role further enhances his appeal. As RJ McDaniel wrote in 2019, “There are few players in the history of organized baseball who have brought this joy to more people — spanning continents, crossing decades — than Ichiro.” That’s the kind of impact that propelled Mariano Rivera and Jeter towards unanimity, and it will do the same for Suzuki.

Sabathia has a strong pair of traditional milestones — 250 wins and 3,000 strikeouts — to go with his Cy Young award (plus five other top-five finishes in the voting), his championship ring from 2009, and fond memories of the way he put the Brewers on his back down the stretch in ’08 by making his last three starts on three days of rest, posting a 0.83 ERA while doing so. He’s a little light on S-JAWS, in that his 50.8 points ranks 55th all-time, six points below the standard, but that’s by far the highest ranking of any recent retiree; by comparison, Mark Buehrle and Andy Pettite, the current top pitchers on the ballot, rank 78th and 81st, respectively, 3.4 and 3.6 points lower than Sabathia. Between Sabathia’s standing and the second act of his career, which saw him confront his alcoholism and remake himself as a finesse pitcher after his mid-90s fastball had faded, his candidacy offers a compelling narrative that will attract voters, and it’s worth noting that there were a considerable number of “future Hall of Famer” tributes in his final season. At this time last year, I thought the presence of a holdover Mauer could contribute to pushing Sabathia back a year, but with him out of the way — and with the decrease in starting pitcher workloads and their standing in future Hall of Fame elections both popular topics of conversation — I now think there’s room for him in 2025.

Sabathia’s resilience stands out particularly when juxtaposed with Hernández, a six-time All-Star with a Cy Young award, two other runner-up finishes, and two ERA titles. Worked even harder than the Sabathia in his 20s, Hernández once appeared Cooperstown-bound, but he fell apart in his early 30s, and could not write a happier ending, finishing with modest totals of 169 wins, 2,524 strikeouts, and 2,729.2 innings. His 44.1 S-JAWS ranks 96th overall (one rung below Sandy Koufax, whose ranking falls a bit once I dial down the impact of those 300-inning seasons), and his adjusted peak of 38.5 WAR is tied for 63rd. His case isn’t as convincing as that of Johan Santana, a starter with an even shorter career and two Cy Youngs in about 700 fewer innings, with the 69th-highest S-JAWS. Having just cast a vote for Pettitte for the first time, I’m less inclined to dismiss Hernández than I was a year ago — and I sense that enough other voters may be thinking along those lines for him to stick around the ballot.

(For some thoughts about Hall-bound pitchers, I’ll again point to Patrick Dubuque’s excellent 2023 piece at Baseball Prospectus. “Much of the conversation around the Hall often boils down to whether a player is defined by their greatness in a single moment, or during a particular peak, or over a whole career,” wrote Dubuque. “And the problem is that based on current standards, pitchers have to achieve it for all three.”)

Moving to the other end of the battery, McCann and Martin are two of the era’s top pitch framers, and so long as a good portion of the baseball public insists that Yadier Molina is a Hall of Famer based on his own ability in that area, I’ll push the other two into the conversation as well, though they didn’t quite have Molina’s staying power. McCann caught for eight playoff-bound teams in his 15-year career and bashed 282 homers, but he wore down significantly after age 32, playing in just 245 games over his final three seasons. Martin caught for 10 playoff-bound teams and played a pivotal role in ending the double-decade playoff droughts of both the Pirates and Blue Jays. Both are far short of 2,000 hits, and are probably doomed as far as the writers’ ballots are concerned, but I’m going to make my point by including them nonetheless. This table, which incorporates the framing metrics of both FanGraphs (from 2008 onward) and Baseball Prospectus (for 1988-2007 using Max Marchi’s Retroframing methodology), shows how closely clustered they are with Mauer and Molina:

FanGraphs Framing-Inclusive JAWS for Catchers
Player Career WAR FG Fram BP Fram WAR Adj fWAR fPeak fJAWS
Mike Piazza 1992-2007 63.7 n/a 87.2 8.4 72.1 52.5 62.3
Ivan Rodriguez 1991-2011 69.2 2.9 -14.1 -1.5 67.7 40.0 53.9
Buster Posey 2009-2019 57.5 128.8 0 0.0 57.5 47.7 52.6
Joe Mauer 2004-2018 53.0 27.6 38.3 3.8 56.8 42.4 49.6
Yadier Molina 2004-2022 55.7 151.1 30.0 2.9 58.6 39.5 49.1
Russell Martin 2006-2019 55.0 165.7 33.7 3.3 58.2 39.8 49.0
Brian McCann 2005-2019 54.5 165.6 -11.3 -1.1 53.4 39.9 46.7
Jorge Posada 1995-2011 40.4 -43.9 -69.5 -6.7 33.7 29.5 31.6
FG Fram = FanGraphs framing runs for 2008 onward, now included in WAR. BP Fram = framing runs from 1988-2007 via Baseball Prospectus. WAR Adj = BP framing runs converted to FanGraphs WAR.

It’s also worth pointing out in this context that Martin had just 6,648 plate appearances in his career and McCann 6,850 to Molina’s 8,554 — the two eligibles here packed a lot of value into much shorter careers.

Kinsler, who retired with 1,999 hits (!), ranks a very respectable 20th in JAWS. He wasn’t the equal of Chase Utley at the plate (107 OPS+ to 117), on the bases, or in the field (87 DRS to 131, in more playing time), though, and given a shortish career, I don’t see him making electoral headway. Pedroia, who’s 19th in JAWS, might have a bit more traction in that conversation. He had fewer hits (1,805) to go with a 113 OPS+ and 99 DRS in his career, which was derailed by left knee woes stemming from a 2017 collision with Manny Machado; he played just nine games in 2018 and ’19, his age-34 and 35 seasons. On the other hand, he played a prominent role in two championships and won MVP and Rookie of the Year Awards. Through his age-33 season, his 52.3 WAR ranks 16th, five spots below Bobby Grich (60.1), three below Lou Whitaker (55.5), two below Utley (55.0) and one below Willie Randolph (53.7), which is to say that he might have come up short (sorry) of Cooperstown even if he hadn’t been injured. Jackie Robinson is the only BBWAA-elected second baseman with a lower WAR at that stage, and obviously, his was a special case.

On the shortstop side of the bag, Tulowitzki didn’t come close to sticking around long enough to have a real case for the Hall, accumulating “only” 1,391 hits but a near-standard peak score of 40.2 (he’s 3.0 points below, while Pedroia is 3.4 below and Kinsler 6.3 below). At best, that makes him Nomar Garciaparra Lite as far as the voters will be concerned. Zobrist, a superutility player with an emphasis on super, had just 1,566 hits but played a pivotal role on eight postseason teams, winning rings with both the Royals and Cubs; he was the World Series MVP for the latter. It won’t be enough for the voters, but it’s enough for a lifetime.

Amid this bumper crop of candidates, I see Wagner capturing the necessary five additional votes, joining the lineage of year-10 honorees and making for another trio. Jones and Beltrán, who return with the second- and third-highest shares of the vote (61.6% and 57.1%, respectively), should continue advancing toward 75%, but I don’t expect them to take the express lane, particularly with transgressions that at least some portion of the electorate may view as disqualifying, namely the former’s domestic violence arrest and the latter’s role in the Astros’ sign-stealing scandal.

2026

Top newcomers: Cole Hamels, Ryan Braun, Alex Gordon, Shin-Soo Choo, Edwin Encarnación, Nick Markakis
Top holdovers: Beltrán, Jones, Utley,
Most likely to be elected: Jones
Falling off: Manny Ramirez

The 2020 season left us short in many areas, including the retirement department. Perhaps it’s the case that few players wanted to end their careers following such a strange campaign. From this group, Braun owns the highest WAR (47.1) of any player who’s officially retired. Braun made six All-Star teams, won the NL Rookie of the Year and MVP awards, and hit 352 homers, but he was caught violating MLB’s drug policy twice. The first time, an arbitrator overturned his suspension, that after Braun publicly smeared the sample collector — alleging anti-Semitism — in an unparalleled bit of ugliness within the annals of baseball’s efforts to fight PEDs. Countless players have denied knowledge of how illegal substances got into their bodies, and some (Rafael Palmeiro comes to mind) tried to cast blame elsewhere, but nobody else took a page from the Lance Armstrong playbook by trying to ruin the reputation of an innocent bystander in such a manner. The second time Braun was caught, via the Biogenesis investigation, he served a 65-game suspension. He’s nowhere near as strong a candidate as Ramirez, who will be in his final year, or Alex Rodriguez. By now it’s pretty clear that Hall-wise, anyone who was suspended isn’t getting to Cooperstown anytime soon.

In the wake of multiple comeback attempts that didn’t even reach the competitive stage due to the ongoing shoulder woes that had limited him to one game since 2019, Hamels finally announced his retirement last August. In his 15-year career, he made four All-Star teams, spun one complete-game no-hitter and did the heavy lifting of a combined one, and won a World Series while helping the Phillies to another pennant as well. His 48.3 S-JAWS is just an eyelash behind Santana, and he doesn’t have any Cy Youngs; meanwhile, his 163 wins are well short of the 200-plus for Buehrle, Pettitte, and the no-longer eligible Tim Hudson. In light of the ongoing dearth of starters that meet traditional mileposts, I think this is a candidacy worth getting on board for; we’ll see where this notion takes me regarding the ones leading up to it, Hernández included.

Encarnación, with 424 homers and some big postseason moments, might seem to have a case as the next designated hitter after Ortiz. His career didn’t really take flight until his late 20s, however, and his 35.5 WAR is about 20 fewer than Ortiz, plus he hit just .216/.324/.360 in the postseason overall. It’s not happening for him any more than it is for Choo, Gordon, or Markakis, who fell 622 hits short of 3,000, finally laying a perennial hypothetical question to rest.

With no newcomers likely to be elected, this could be the opening for Jones, in his ninth year, and perhaps even Beltrán, in his fourth, though I wouldn’t be surprised if he still winds up needing one more turn. I expect this is where Utley’s candidacy starts to pick up steam with something in the 40–50% ballpark.

2027

Top newcomers: Buster Posey, Jon Lester, Brett Gardner, Kyle Seager, Ryan Zimmerman
Top holdovers: Beltrán, Utley, Hamels
Most likely to be elected: Posey, Beltrán
Falling off: Omar Vizquel

Posey’s sudden retirement at age 34, after his strongest offensive performance in at least half a decade, left him with just 1,500 career hits, but his seven All-Star appearances, three championships, MVP, Rookie of the Year, and Gold Glove awards and 129 OPS+ make for a full enough resumé for Cooperstown. All that’s missing is watching him break down, and who really needs to see that? By JAWS, his 36.6 peak score is ninth all-time, nearly two full wins above the standard, and that’s without considering the impact of his elite pitch framing; he’s fifth in our version of the metric covering the 2009–21 span of his career and second in that of Baseball Prospectus. In both, he’s just ahead of Molina, who caught roughly twice as many innings (though only 44% more in the window covered by our metric). Even given the brevity of his career, I believe he’ll join Mauer, Ivan Rodriguez, and Johnny Bench on the ridiculously short list of catchers elected on their first ballot.

(Remember above where I said the first-ballot distinction is annoying? Some of that is because the BBWAA voters lost credibility in this area by not electing Yogi Berra, Gary Carter, and Piazza on the first go.)

Of the rest, the one who will generate significant discussion is Lester. With his 200 wins, three championship rings, and big-game reputation (9-7, 2.51 ERA in 154 postseason innings), his candidacy will get some attention, but his 43.4 WAR is about 15-17 WAR lower than the Buehrle/Hudson/Pettitte trio, and he’s 152nd in S-JAWS, 96 spots (and 12 points) below Sabathia, and just 12 spots above Jack Morris. Gardner, Seager, and Zimmerman each spent their careers with one franchise and deserve their spots in the hearts of fans, but none had the value, the accomplishments, or the staying power to make a dent in Hall voting.

If he doesn’t break through in 2026, I think this will be Beltrán’s year. Meanwhile, you may have noticed that I made no mention of the trajectory of Vizquel. Allegations of multiple incidents of domestic violence against his wife and sexual harassment of an autistic batboy led to him setting a modern record with a 25.2% drop on the 2022 ballot, from 49.1% to 23.9%. He’s lost a few points in each election since, this time while embarking upon a PR campaign that lacked any hint of introspection or accountability. His situation is without parallel in the annals of Hall of Fame voting, but it’s now abundantly clear he’ll remain a lower-tier candidate through his remaining eligibility, unable to regain the ground or the respect that he lost.

The back-to-back ballots lacking in obvious choices (aside from Posey) will open an opportunity for all kinds of holdovers who have hung around in the lower reaches to take steps forward. By this point, Utley should be above 50%, and some of the others who have generated less heat — Pettitte in his ninth year, Abreu in his eighth, Buehrle in his seventh, Jimmy Rollins in his sixth, maybe even Pedroia — could be at least positioning themselves in the 40% range and creating some appeal as an Era Committee candidate. Likewise for Hernández and Hamels, though they could even have enough time to hope for bigger things from the writers… eventually.

2028

Top newcomers: Albert Pujols, Robinson Canó, David Price, Yadier Molina
Top holdovers: Utley, Hamels, Pettitte, Buehrle, Alex Rodriguez
Most likely to be elected: Pujols, Molina
Falling off: Pettitte

Though he spent more than nine years of his 10-year, $240 million deal disappointing in Anaheim, Pujols enjoyed a strong finish to his 22-year major league career, pushing his home run total to 703 (fourth all-time), his hit total to 3,384 (10th all-time, and the most by a player born outside the United States), and his career WAR back into triple digits (101.7) while making his 11th and final All-Star team during a victory-lap season in St. Louis. While it won’t erase all memories of his diminishing returns, going out on a high note should goose Pujols’ share of the vote into the high 90s.

The celebration may well help Molina get to 75% by riding his coattails. A 10-time All-Star and nine-time Gold Glove winner, he earned a reputation as one of the best at handling pitchers, both in terms of framing and game-calling. We have metrics to back up the first of those assertions, in that he’s third in our version of framing runs dating back to 2008 (151) and fourth in BP’s version that goes back to 1988. As for the second, we have a lot of anecdotes as well as a count showing that he was a part of 13 playoff teams, the starter on two World series winners and one more pennant winner, but we don’t have a real means of quantifying that value in runs. He’s just 22nd in JAWS among catchers, well below all but three Hall of Famers, but as with Martin, McCann, and Posey, I don’t think off-the-shelf JAWS is the right thing to use; as noted above, I have him fifth in my FanGraphs Framing-Inclusive JAWS. Combine that with the industry consensus of his future in Cooperstown and I think he’ll have enough momentum to get in.

An eight-time All-Star who collected 2,639 hits and 335 homers, Canó ranks seventh in JAWS among second basemen, but his Hall of Fame chances are as dead on arrival as those of Ramirez and Rodriguez given his two PED suspensions, an 80-gamer in 2018 and a full season in ’21. He’ll get enough support to stick around the ballot, though.

As a former Cy Young winner (and two-time runner-up) who made five All-Star teams, pitched for nine playoff teams, and helped the Red Sox win a championship in 2018, Price certainly packed a lot into his 14-year career. Elbow problems and the pandemic limited him to just one 30-start season past his age-30 campaign, however, leaving him with 157 wins, a 123 ERA+, 40.1 WAR, and the no. 180 ranking in S-JAWS. Even with some adjusted expectations for starters in the coming years, that’s too low to merit much consideration.

This will be Utley’s fifth year on the ballot. As noted in my post-election coverage, he received a higher share of the vote in his first year (28.8%) than Rolen and Helton combined — and both were elected in their sixth year. Both of those players grew their shares of the vote against the backdrop of some lean years for newcomers, whereas Utley’s tenure looks more crowded. I think he’ll be close by this point, but will be more likely to follow the path blazed by those two.

2029

Top newcomers: Miguel Cabrera, Nelson Cruz, Adam Wainwright
Top holdovers: Utley, Hamels, Pettitte, Buehrle,
Most likely to be elected: Cabrera, Utley
Falling off: Abreu

Like Pujols, Cabrera struggled for most of the period covered by his big contract (eight years and $248 million from 2016–2023), but even so, he became the seventh player to reach the dual milestones of 3,000 hits and 500 home runs after Henry Aaron, Willie Mays, Eddie Murray, Palmeiro, Rodriguez, and Pujols — elite company. He’ll sail into Cooperstown easily.

Cruz spent 19 years in the majors with eight different teams, playing past his 43rd birthday. Along the way he made seven All-Star teams, played for seven squads that reached the postseason, and clubbed 464 home runs with his boomstick, topping 40 three times and leading the league once. For all of that, he totaled just 42.2 WAR while spending more than half of his games as a DH, and for as widely respected as he was throughout the game, his 2013 PED suspension will doom his chances here.

Unlike Pujols and Molina, the 41-year-old Wainwright chose to return for one more season, but it turned into an absolute slog due to age and injury. He finished with a 7.40 ERA and -2.0 WAR — and that was after winning his final two starts to reach an even 200 for his career. Given his four top-three finishes in the Cy Young voting and his role in helping the Cardinals to nine playoff appearances and two World Series, it might be a surprise that he ranks just 134th in S-JAWS at 40.6, comparable to Bartolo Colon and Brad Radke (both 40.8). He pitched just 2,668.1 innings, however, missing all of 2011 due to Tommy John surgery, all but seven appearances in ’15 due to surgery to repair a torn Achilles tendon, and all but eight appearances in ’18 due to elbow inflammation. He banked four seasons of at least 6.0 WAR, but the other three seasons rounding out his peak score feature WAR totals of 4.0, 3.5, and 3.0 (including offense). Maybe he lingers on the ballot, but I don’t expect him to mount a real challenge.

This will be year six for Utley, and as I wrote above, I believe this will be his year, but that assumption rests on us having not seen the last of Zack Greinke, Clayton Kershaw, and/or Joey Votto, all unsigned free agents at this writing. All of them appear to be planning to play, even if, in the cases of Kershaw (who’s recovering from shoulder surgery) and Votto, it means donning different uniforms for the first time. If any of them do retire, they’re likely to get elected here while probably bumping Utley back another year.

Kershaw and Greinke respectively rank 20th and 25th in JAWS already; both have well over 200 wins (210 for the former, 225 for the latter) and are closing in on 3,000 strikeouts, with Greinke needing just 21 and Kershaw 56. They’ll be first-ballot guys regardless of when they retire. Votto, a former MVP, six-time All-Star, and seven-time on-base percentage leader, has comparatively low counting stats for a first baseman (2,135 hits, 356 homers), and he’s been at replacement level or worse in three of the past four seasons. Even so, he’s 12th in JAWS, 2.2 points above the standard, and outdoing Helton both in JAWS (by 1.4 points) and seven-year peak (by 0.3 WAR). Like Greinke, he’s also a media favorite, so I think he’ll get in fairly quickly, perhaps on the first ballot.

Leaving Kershaw and company aside, that’s 10 players elected over the next five years, down one from last year but the same total I forecast in the wake of the 2021 and ’22 elections; that 2021 total included a qualified inclusion of Sheffield upon my projecting Ortiz to be a first ballot honoree for the first time. That’s still more than the eight players actually elected from 2019–23 and the seven from ’20–24, mainly because we’ve got some pretty solid first-year classes ahead save for ’26.

Beyond the numbers — and what would be surprising if not shocking revelations — the end of the candidacies of Sheffield this year and Pettitte in 2028 will close the door on the Wild West era of PED usage as far as the BBWAA is concerned. The remaining PED-linked candidates either currently on the ballot or scheduled to debut, namely Ramirez, Rodriguez, Braun and Canó, were all suspended at least once. If one counts the leaked results of the survey test and Braun’s arbitration turnover, all were connected to PEDs multiple times, removing the excuse that they merely made one-time mistakes. That won’t end every debate about their suitability, but it will make the writers’ jobs a little easier and could improve the tenor of the conversation around the ballot.

My track record in this is wobbly enough to know that I haven’t gotten everything correct. The fun (hopefully) will be in watching all of this unfold and depart from the script. We’ve had some pleasant surprises in recent years, with some first-ballot entries and holdover candidates rallying from sluggish early showings. I’m hopeful we’ll get a few more of the latter while also having the opportunity to celebrate the more obvious choices. After all, variety is the spice of life, in Cooperstown as elsewhere.





Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.

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HM70Member since 2020
2 years ago

I think it’s hard to project Utley for induction until we see a second year to know what momentum he might have. And given the dearth of candidates in 2026, it may be beneficial to see what happens when a lot of big ballot voters have a lot of spaces cleared. If he doesn’t get close to 50% by that year, it might be the end of his chances.

tjcook87Member since 2020
2 years ago

The future candidacy of Joey Votto manages to excite me tremendously at my favorite player making the HoF, make me very sad that he’s near/at the end, and fill me with overwhelming anxiety that the Ballous, Purdys, and Bretons will make him linger on the ballot for years.

2wins87
2 years ago
Reply to  tjcook87

I don’t have the same personal connection to Votto, but I do think he should be an easy hall of famer.

Lots of differences, but I can’t help viewing his case similar to Mauer’s, whose case I did feel more personally passionate about. Both played entirely in smaller non-coastal markets but meant a lot to the fans there (maybe not entirely for Votto, but certainly he won’t be remembered for anything other than his time in Cincinnati), different personalities but both well liked and respected. Both truly great in their peaks, both big on-base guys which leads some of their traditional stats to look a little less impressive without understanding the context.

Even with big differences in position and longevity, for some reason it still seems like a similar case to me. I’d predict he’ll be close to 75%, one side or the other, in his first ballot and won’t have to wait more than one year.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  2wins87

rWAR (which is what most BBWAA writers default to) also likes Votto quite a bit more than fWAR.

Part of it is DRS vs. RAA…but B-Ref also bases its positional adjustments off of a rolling rate of contemporaneous market values, rather than back of the envelope math from 20 years ago, giving him another 4 wins.

Last edited 2 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
JoeyVottoIsGoneMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  tjcook87

Joey Votto: God/Hall of Famer

Dan B
2 years ago
Reply to  tjcook87

I like the candidacy’s for Utley and Beltran et al. as much as the next guy, but the Votto question is more about whether Votto sails in to the Hall with a > % than Ortiz, not whether he is a 6/7 year guy.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

If you just look at his career in MLB and his numbers, Ichiro is a borderline candidate. Kind of at the same level as Todd Helton, or Bobby Abreu. You could put him in or leave him off and you could make an argument either way.

But his career is so unique. You can’t only look at his MLB career. The Japanese league is special because it’s the clear-cut #2 baseball league in the world, and we have a wealth of data to know how stats in Japan translate to the MLB context. He won 3 MVPs before he even touched down in the United States. There’s almost no one who has managed to build a Hall of Fame career in two countries, but he did it. It takes a guy who is a borderline candidate and puts him, way, way over the line.

That’s even before we get to the part where he was a mononymous sensation on two continents and was the first position player from Japan to come over in…30 years? 40 years? Ever? And he led Japan to the inaugural World Baseball Classic title. The only question is whether Ichiro gets closer to 90% or 100% of the votes on the first ballot, and it will be well-deserved. I have not looked forward to a Hall of Fame induction this much since at least 2015.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I would put his “Just MLB” case as far closer to Vladdy/Winfield than Abreu/Helton because, as Jay mentions in the writeup, Ichiro has the precise sort of profile that earns bundles of Rule of Cool bonus points, and is easily appreciable by everyone.

…and then you have the fact that he’s still probably the single best NPB player since Sadaharu Oh (he has a higher NPB SLG than Ohtani!!!!).

Ichiro is Ichiro.

Last edited 2 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

I would say Vlad Sr and Winfield are also kind of borderline! Just because “coolness” is sometimes used as a primary determinant of voting doesn’t mean it makes sense.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Like, I can think of any number of “cool” players who are not Hall of Fame worthy. There was a whole book named after Tom Gordon! But guys who are Hall of Fame worthy typically become “cool” as a result of being so good. Coolness is a lagging indicator.

tjcook87Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Man, I forgot that book existed, as well as most all pertinent plot info/etc.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I get into this below, but there’s definitely a minimum threshold for genuine consideration, which all of these guys comfortably cross.

(I’d put that threshold somewhere in the range of David Ortiz’s 45 JAWS).

There’s also a threshold where someone becomes a no-doubter – I’d put it somewhere around Roberto Alomar’s 55 JAWS)

The Rule of Cool isn’t about putting sub-45 JAWS folks into the Hall:

It’s about the difference between David Ortiz and Ian Kinsler…or, frankly, Vladimir and Bobby Abreu, who was one of my favorite players growing up.

JustinPBGMember since 2018
2 years ago

That 45 JAWS is a pretty good indicator. If you look at right field, 45 is mostly HOFers and some PED era guys like Sheff and Giles (not saying Sheff shouldn’t be in).

Among current people, if Judge manages a single additional 5 WAR season his JAWS would pass 45 (if he doesn’t have negative WAR otherwise), and then it’s just “can he put up 15ish WAR in 7 additional contract seasons.”

I bring this up to point out how much work Big Seasons can – and should! – do.

Left of Centerfield
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Winfield’s a bit of a weird one because of his defense. He won tons of Gold Gloves yet the defensive metrics say he was a poor defender. If we were to take a middle-ground positon and say he was average defensively, then he’d have about 73 WAR.

Dmjn53
2 years ago

Same with Vlad. His most memorable attribute is probably his throwing arm, but he too grades out as a poor defender

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I remember him most for hitting homers on balls at his laces and above his head, haha!

marchandman34Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Vlad was about average thanks to a plus arm, he had below average range.

marchandman34Member since 2020
2 years ago

TZ is bearish on him, but through age 36/prime years, he’s roughly average by baseball projection and tom thress.

Left of Centerfield
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Borderline by WAR. But 3,000 hits, 9 gold gloves, 500 steals, and an MVP tends to be first ballot for any non-PED user.

Barney Coolio
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, a lot of people might be shocked at how pedestrian some of Ichiro’s career stats are: OPS + and WAR.

He was actually really bad from 2014-2019, with only 49 PAs in the last two seasons. He was clearly dragging his WAR and rate stats down.

What is the Mariners and Ichiro agreed that he should play all of 2018 and 2019? That would have dragged down his WAR and rate stats a lot more. What if Ichiro’s Miami years never happened and he played 2015-2019 putting up turd numbers in Seattle in a lot more playing time?

Is it possible to “play your way out of the HOF”? As in, you would have been a HOFer had you retired in year X, but you kept playing until year X + 4, so you’re no longer worthy.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

See, I don’t think it’s possible to play your way out of the Hall of Fame. I would just ignore any years with negative WAR. We shouldn’t be penalizing people for the twilight of their careers…

Barney Coolio
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think that it is less about WAR and more about watering down your rate stats.

When Tim Raines was a HOF candidate, people wondered if hanging around for so long as a part time player was hurting his chances. He actually had pretty decent stats in limited playing time up until his final season at age 42. Perhaps having so many years as a part time player made people forget his earlier years of full time greatness.

Jim Kaat lingered until almost 45. But again, his 5 season as a 40 something weren’t bad, he actually has a winning record as a 40 something. He went 22-20 and never had a losing season. Both Raines and Kaat are in the HOF now.

CC Sabathia’s HOF case is kind of like Ichiro’s. Relatively low WAR and ERA+, but a whole lot of goodies: Cy Young, WS win, 250 wins and 3000 strikeouts. He retired at age 39 and is still only 43. Had he kept chugging along for five more bad years, dragging down his WAR and ERA+ through 2024, could he torpedo his HOF case? I know you will say, “No,” and so will I, but imagine a lesser pitcher. I remember in 2019 a lot of writers thought he didn’t deserve the HOF. I think more people are thinking “Yes” for Sabathia.

Dmjn53
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

While I agree, I also think consistency needs to be applied too with reaching counting stat milestones.

Pujols is the clear example of this. His career rate stats are way down because of the last decade of his career, and I think we all understand that he was actually a much better hitter than his career .918 OPS suggests (it was 1.023 at age 33). But for that same reason I think it cheapens the 700 HR milestone, because he hit those final ~250 HRs as a replacement level player that was only getting the necessary playing time because of his contract

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Of course…it’s really hard to “cheapen” massive milestones like that, haha.

The lowest career WAR among players with 3000 hits is Lou Brock…who’d have at least another 10 WAR if we had advanced BsR stats during his era.

olethrosMember since 2020
2 years ago

Brock’s defensive stats are wonky as hell, too. Average-ish for the first third of his career, utterly abysmal for the middle third, then back to average-ish for the final third. He probably lost at least 5 and maybe as much as 10 bWAR due to that, and though he was never known as a plus defender, I suspect he wasn’t as bad as that middle stretch portrays him.

Of course, he retired when I was three so I never actually saw him play.

marchandman34Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  olethros

While he was fast, he wasn’t an adept fielder, his overall range value was a tad above average, but he had a weak arm, profiling as about average overall.

marchandman34Member since 2020
2 years ago

His rbaser looks pretty fair, while he had the stolen bases record, his success rate wasn’t impressive, he also had the all-time caught stealing record.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  marchandman34

…we literally do not have any data regarding UBR and wGDP until 2002.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Stop acting like Pujols completely sucked in the second half of his career just because he declined relatively quickly.

Pujols was still a really good player up until 2015 when he was 35, and he was only really a replacement player in 2017. In every other year, he still provided positive value on offense, while he was barely hurting his team on defense by playing mostly at DH. He still earned most of the playing time he got (especially against lefties), and it was only because the Angels stupidly refused to make the obvious move of playing Taylor Ward full-time in their injury-ravaged outfield that he got released by the Angels in the first place.

Dmjn53
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Albert Pujols was worth 10.7 bWAR in the final 10 seasons of his career. It is universally understood that he sucked for the back half of his career.

He’s also arguably the greatest RH hitter of all time based on what he did in the first half of his career. Both statements can be true

Last edited 2 years ago by Dmjn53
synco
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Playing one’s way out of the HOF doesn’t worry me much because WAR is set to replacement level. You’d have to be truly terrible for a very long period of time to do more than handful of WAR’s worth of damage to your bottom line.

Now, if we measured HOF viability by WAA instead of WAR…

More to the point, as Dmjn53 noted above, if we’re not going to “punish” people for poor value stats at the end of their career, we also shouldn’t elevate them for the raw stats they provide during those years. I.e. if Markakis or Vizquel or Edgar Renteria (remember that conversation?) had held on long enough to compile their way to compile their way to 3,000 hits, they shouldn’t have become Hall of Famers by virtue of tagging on seven valueless seasons at the end of their careers.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  synco

I would agree with that. I’ve always thought that the Hall of Fame should be primarily about peak rather than longevity anyway. You need a certain amount of longevity to make it but a lot of these magic numbers are just because humans like round numbers. I really don’t care if someone gets 3,000 hits (of course, there’s no one with 3,000 hits who is unworthy of the Hall of Fame, so it’s irrelevant, but if someone ended with 2,900 I don’t think that changes the case much).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah, a lot of the Round Numbers are proxies for being very good for a long time.

The worst career with 500 HR is David Ortiz.

The worst career with 3000 Hits is Lou Brock.

The worst career with 300 Wins is Early Wynn…and the worst modern career with 250 is probably Jamie Moyer!

The problem comes more when not reaching those round numbers is used to deny a Bert Blyleven.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

No, longevity still matters nearly as much as peak does. They just have an inverse relationship where the closer you get to the 10-year minimum, the stronger your peak needs to be to make up for the relatively short career.

The reverse is also true but to a more limited degree. A longer career can help add value to a relatively weaker peak, but you still need a certain level of peak performance to merit strong consideration in the first place.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
synco
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Ditto, I’m also a peak guy. You need both, but of the two peak weighs more. There comes a point at which career overwhelms (say, if Johnny Damon had played until he was 45 and compiled over 3,500 hits), but no one’s really hit that other than Lou Brock, who had massive fame points for breaking the SB record(s).

Dmjn53
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Humans do love those round numbers. If Fred McGriff hits 7 more HRs over 19 years he’s in on the first ballot (he’s not a HOFer for me but that’s not the point)

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  synco

No, you should do both, since they basically cancel each other out as far as Hall of Fame consideration goes.

That said, if someone truly compiled their way to 3,000 hits, then you can still make an exception for that milestone when considering the overall case.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
Da Bear
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’d bet that you could consider Pete Rose to have played (and managed) his way out of the Hall of Fame!

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  Da Bear

If “play” is being used as a euphemism, then absolutely!

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

While I wouldn’t ignore such a terrible end, I think the damage done to the rate stats is at least partially cancelled out by the extra counting stats (aside from WAR being a nearly unique case of a counting stat that can go backwards).

tootblan
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I know it shouldn’t matter from a HOF perspective but Ichiro gets a ton of bonus points for being an unbelievably fun player to watch. The way he sought out a hit above all else and could make a slow dribbler to third base the most exciting play of the game is unparalleled.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  tootblan

…but why “shouldn’t” it matter that he was incredibly fun and memorable to watch, when it comes to something like the Hall?

Like, there are obviously somewhat “objective” quality thresholds (I wouldn’t let in a sub-50 WAR guy outside of a Munson/Campanella situation), but there’s been an odd energy here the last few weeks that’s seemingly try to strip the poetry from it all…and that seems to miss the point.

Last edited 2 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago

Put in a less controversial way, perhaps, you never see the character clause cited as a positive factor to elevate a case but you do see it cited as a negative against any number of players. CC publicly confronting his alcohol issues and getting help was probably really helpful to a lot of people. I’d argue that he should get positive character clause points for that. It’s not “cool” necessarily, but I’m not against positive public relations being a positive factor.

tootblan
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

This is basically the point I’m trying to make. WAR and JAWS are obviously great measures for Hall worthiness but I feel it can make it too easy to boil a candidacy down to a number or two. Solely by WAR/JAWS Ichiro is a borderline guy, but even without factoring in his career in Japan he was such a breathtaking player to watch I would put him in anyway.

MorlandMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I actually think character was helpful in Mauer getting a few more votes to make it in his first year on the ballot.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Morland

Along those lines, the “one team” thing, which does definitely help a candidacy, seems to register under the character clause a bit. Those guys tend to build roots and charitable organizations and such in their cities.

There’s also the sense that if an organization likes a guy enough to keep him around for 15-20 years, he must be a pretty decent guy. Otherwise they’d figure out a way to send him packing once he’s no longer super useful on the field.

Dmjn53
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

considering he arrived in the US and was immediately a 7 win player at age 27, I think it’s fair it say he missed out on at least 30 WAR from 22-26

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I would say “about 30 WAR” rather than “at least” but even a low-end estimate would make him a slam-dunk, no doubt Hall of Famer.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Give him 10 WAR during that time and he’s a slam-dunk, no-doubt Hall of Famer!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago

Right, it’s not like you have to make many assumptions here to get him into no-doubt territory. The most conservative interpretation of his time in Japan is enough to put him on par with guys like Robin Yount. A middle-range interpretation is probably in the area of Roberto Clemente.

random Colorado guy
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

As far as I can tell, the balloting rules avoid commentary on international baseball, whether pro-consideration or anti. It is left to the voters to decide whether to include his NPB achievements as a component of his “record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played”, to cite BBWAA’s quote of the instructions on the ballot. (The Hall itself is curiously reluctant to discuss these instructions on their own web page, at least that part of it which we mere mortals can reach.) The voting for Ichiro will be an interesting litmus test for how BBWAA voters consider the NPB evidence of his “record, playing ability…” I am not nearly as optimistic about this as Jay seems to be; there are xenophobes in the BBWAA, just as anywhere else.

Lanidrac
2 years ago

Not with Ichiro, as he’s already an obvious Hall of Famer based just on his MLB stats. We’ll need to wait for someone else to make for a better test case.

Dan B
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

3,000 hits in America without controversy and his “pumpkin” phase was short, relatively.
Not marginal, even in the absence of his NPB numbers, cultural impact, joy.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago

Markakis not even making it to 2500 hits really does show how hard it is to reach 3000 without having been an outstanding player.

Time is undefeated:

And if you don’t have a high baseline, you’ll have more to accumulate during your decline…even as you’ll be far less playable.

Barney Coolio
2 years ago

I remember in 2018 being so excited about Markakis creeping to 3000 hits and really making the HOF voters think. Twas not to be.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Barney Coolio

The guy I always thought had the best chance was Johnny Damon. He was over 2,700 hits at the end of his age-37 season, during which he wasn’t truly terrible (1.5 WAR). ~300 cheap hits from 38-40 seemed feasible, but he crapped out during age-38 and was done.

Last edited 2 years ago by synco
tootblan
2 years ago

Ironically, Omar Vizquel is the ideal player type to get to 3000 without being an elite player (played forever, great defense at a premium position, undeservedly hit at the top of the order frequently) and he didn’t even quite get there. With hits less emphasized than ever I don’t think we ever see it happen, although it would be fun!

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  tootblan

The only “non-elite” guy to ever make it, as far as I can tell, is Lou Brock.

And Lou Brock was Lou freaking Brock!

CousinNicky
2 years ago
Reply to  tootblan

Funny enough, Vizquel is 21st all time in PA’s at just over 12,000. He is one of only 2 players with that many PA’s that doesnt have 3,000 hits. The other is very funny, someone I wouldnt have guessed but makes sense once you realize his walk rate… (Barry Bonds).

souldrummer
2 years ago
Reply to  CousinNicky

Great point. Never thought I’d see Bonds and Vizquel in the same club.

Handsome Wes
2 years ago

When there’s a dearth of obvious candidates (such as in 2026), do you think the writers are more likely to say “well, I gotta vote for *someone*”, or do you think it’s more likely they’ll say “no one’s really worthy, so I won’t vote for anyone.”

I think back to 2021 when the top new candidate was Mark Buehrle. So many players that year who were returning to the ballot wound up losing votes (or barely made any traction). I know that 2021 represented unique circumstances, as the 2020 inductees still hadn’t been enshrined and many people felt that they needed to have their moment on stage first, but… I dunno. Just wondering aloud if people are more – or less – likely to vote when there’s no clear headliner.

Left of Centerfield
2 years ago
Reply to  Handsome Wes

The 2021 ballot had several controversial candidates (Bonds, Schilling, and Clemens) who didn’t gain much.

But others gained quite a bit:

Rolen: 35.3% to 52.9%
Wagner: 31.7% to 46.4%
Sheffield: 30.5% to 40.6%
Helton: 29.2% to 44.9%
Andruw Jones: 19.4% to 33.9%

CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago

If CC doesn’t make it, ima riot. He’s my “if he doesn’t make it, then no pitcher is ever gonna make it again” guy (shy of the Verlander/scherzer/kershaw trio).

I’d be good with Felix, too, on the basis of his peak (I might have even been cool with Santana too, for that reason). I’d take those two over Hamels, wainwright, Lester, etc who pitched longer without the peaks. I expect none of them will get in, though.

Last edited 2 years ago by CC AFC
synco
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

CC is an interesting one. He’s one of the last could-or-couldn’t guys (in comparison to the locks that are Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, and Greinke) from before the 5-and-dive era. He’ll look good next to modern guys when he gets on the ballot – in the days of yore he’d probably be the definition of the border for an SP (when it comes to the writers at least).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

If you’re putting Hamels in the same category as Wainwright and Lester, you’re underrating his peak by quite a bit.

He’s got roughly the same JAWS as Johan…and is quite a bit closer to CC than to Felix, whose WAR7 comes in only 1 point higher than Hamels’ and lacks longevity to boot.

I think Hamels has a legitimate shot to set the standard alongside CC for non-“Big 4” SPs (I assume leaving Greinke off the list is a brain fart, haha).

Last edited 2 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago

Yes, greinke forms a quadrant with Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw. That was a miss by me.

Re Hamels, I originally was looking at fWAR, where he only had one season barely over 5. He did fare better on bWAR, which is probably the more relevant metric for pitchers for HOF purposes. I would agree he is a level above Lester and Wainwright (just mentioned them as the other guys coming up on the ballot in the near future who will get meaningful consideration).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

It’s not a “probably,” vis a vis bWAR.

No writer uses the metric that claims Andy Pettitte was better than Glavine and Greinke…and that Javy Vazquez was every bit as good as Felix Hernandez, because the fact that he got clobbered every time he had to pitch out of the stretch was just random variance.

The particularly analytical writers might use FG’s RA9-WAR on the basis that pitcher BABIP stabilizes at 10000 events and bWAR’s defensive adjustment numbers are too crude to be useful…but none of them use fWAR.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago

Misspoke, regarding Pitcher BABIP:

It stabilizes at around 2000 BIP:

https://library.fangraphs.com/offense/babip/

Lanidrac
2 years ago

It stabilizes but only at a different true talent level for each pitcher during their primes, just as it does for hitters. Ignoring it completely is stupid and makes fWAR for pitchers just as bad as bWAR for pitchers.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

Oh, I’d say it makes it quite a bit worse than bWAR for pitchers, once you get a sample size beyond 800 innings or so.

SportszillaMember since 2017
2 years ago

I understand (and mostly agree with) the arguments against Nelson Cruz but that guy fucking rules.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Sportszilla

DH version of Bartolo, haha!

Jason BMember since 2017
2 years ago

I would definitely watch a show with them as buddy cops solving crimes

random Colorado guy
2 years ago

I find it interesting that the comments on Molina made no mention of what he did to the running game, which ironically was the subject of a very interesting FanGraphs article a couple of years ago. Why was this? Framing may be a good surrogate for other aspects of catcher defense, but I cannot imagine how it would be a good surrogate for that one. Was it just that Molina appears a likely enough first-ballot candidate that there was no need to devote more words to him?

2wins87
2 years ago

I’m pretty sure preventing SB attempts has always been a part of the defensive metrics used in WAR calculations.

From the Fangraphs catcher defense article: “First, available on FanGraphs and elsewhere, you can find rSB, or the DRS-based Stolen Base Runs Above Average. This stat measures, in runs, how a catcher compares to the average catcher in terms of preventing stolen bases, accounting for the fact that the best way to prevent a steal is to prevent the runner from attempting it.”

So suppressing the run game is already accounted for similarly in both Fangraphs and Baseball Reference WAR, the only big difference is framing. And Molina’s issue, if he has one, is going to be how much lower his bWAR is.

I don’t think the point is that framing should be a surrogate for catcher defense. Without framing metrics, Molina would have been pretty light on WAR and JAWS, and his statistical case was going to have to be based on how good he was defensively, and how WAR metrics couldn’t fully capture that. In the case of framing, the metrics confirmed what people had already been saying about his skills, so it might also give a little more weight to some of the other unmeasured “extra credit” that someone arguing for his case might be inclined to use.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  2wins87

Sure, it’s part of WAR, but it wasn’t mentioned specifically in Molina’s write-up like his pitch framing and game calling were, thus making it seem like those were the only two things he was good at.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
fanofthemanMember since 2020
2 years ago

That Craig Edwards piece on Molina’s impact on the running game is astonishing- Yadier Molina’s Career in Four Graphs. Worth a read in the slow part of the baseball year!

During Yadi’s career, the Cardinals allowed more than 300 fewer steals than the second place Dbacks, and nearly 600 fewer than the average team. That’s even more incredible when you realize the Cards only allowed about 800 steals total- they nearly halved the average. Astonishing impact on how the game felt, even if it’s not captured in numbers

random Colorado guy
2 years ago
Reply to  fanoftheman

That was the article I was thinking of. It lines up well with the checking that I did on how many innings went by between SB attempts against Molina compared to the average catcher, and the short answer is “nearly twice as many.” Year in, year out for most of his career. Nobody else, not even Martin or McCann (who actually didn’t have that good a CS%), was close. Heck, even Pudge wasn’t that close, although a clear second among catchers I’ve looked at.

Acknowledging the point about rSB, I’m still surprised there was no mention. Depending on how you measure it, this guy may have been as much as a 5-sigma outlier on running-game suppression, and 4 sigma is pretty easy to defend if you don’t mind Pudge being way out there with him.

Last edited 2 years ago by random Colorado guy
Dmjn53
2 years ago

I’m a CC fan, but it’s hard for me to see him as a HOF. Out of 19 seasons, only three were more than 5 WAR, and nine were less than 3. A peak WAR a full 10 below the average HOF starter. That’s with pitching a ton of innings (for his era). Career 116 ERA+ isn’t quite Jack Morris level, but really low a HOF.

Again, I like the guy, and I understand the idea that it’s impossible to compare modern starters’ numbers to the ludicrous volume of past eras, but this was clearly a good pitcher and not a great one.

Last edited 2 years ago by Dmjn53
jaysfan39Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

It was actually 4 seasons of over 5 WAR on baseball reference under the WAR chart it has his 2008 season split between his time with Cleveland & Milwaukee.

From 2006-2011 he had seasons of 4.6, 6.3, 6.8, 6.2, 4.8 & 6.4

Over a 6 year stretch 4 seasons of over 6 WAR and 2 that were close to 5 is probably one of the better 6 year stretches by any pitcher since CC made his MLB debut.

CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

From 2006-11, he was top 10 in pitcher WAR every single year. Once #1 and once #2. That’s a good enough peak for me. Combined with his longevity compared to contemporaries, I’m going to beat the table for him until he gets in (I think he’s getting in).

Dmjn53
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

top 10 over a 6 year period is an extremely underwhelming bar

CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

In the top 10 every year? Which made him #2 overall in that time frame behind HOFer Roy Halladay? It’s not excellent to be the second best pitcher in baseball over 6 years? Then we’re being ridiculous about how good someone has to be.

Last edited 2 years ago by CC AFC
68FCMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

By bWAR, the top 10 players in MLB from 2006-2011,

  1. Pujols 49.0
  2. Utley 42.0
  3. Halladay 39.2
  4. Sabathia 35.0
  5. A-Rod 33.0
  6. Beltre 31.5
  7. Miggy 30.9
  8. Mauer 30.4
  9. Holliday 30.3
  10. Granderson/Teixeira 29.6

That is some pretty good company to keep.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

It would be underwhelming for anyone but a starting pitcher. But about half of MLB is pitchers, and the starters are both the best of that half and the most important of that half.

Pitchers get something like 43% of WAR, it’s not unreasonable to think that they should also get about 43% of hall inductions, and I personally think that nearly all of those inductions should be starters.

Which means that top 10 for 6 years in a row as a pitcher is about as good to me as #1 at shortstop for 6 years in a row, which is a more than high enough peak.

mariodegenzgz
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

If CC Sabathia is not a Hall of Fame pitcher, no starter after the JV/Kersh/Greinke/Scherzer quartet will ever make the HOF again. Cole is basically the only current SP that isn’t one of those four that’s somewhat on track for it. Aside from him? Sandy would’ve been in that boat, but he’s gonna lose a full season of his prime and who knows how he comes back.

I think of CC as somewhat below Mussina. They have roughly the same amount of innings and Mussina’s career ERA+ is about six or seven points ahead of CC’s. Mussina was a slam dunk, so CC should be a comfortable pick. 251 wins, over 3000 punchies, a Cy Young, a strong peak (140 ERA+ over 1591.2 IP from 06-12), signature moments, a ring, even a late-career resurgence. And well respected and liked across the game. He’s an easy pick imo.

The Duke
2 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

There are few pitchers outside of Verlander, Cole, greinke, Scherzer and kershaw that project to be HOF pitchers. Sale ? Maybe but he’d need a really good 5 years. Degrom. Neither fish nor fowl. Were he to have focused on being a reliever, he’d be a first ballot guy which tells you all you need to know about the flaws of putting relievers in the Hall.

After those two, there’s nothing although I hold out hope for Alcantara

Last edited 2 years ago by The Duke
CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  The Duke

Alcantara? Is he different than any handful of pitchers who have had a brief spell of excellence? He’s basically had two good seasons and he’s gonna be 29 by the time he pitches again. Doesn’t make him much different than other later 20s pitchers like Gallen, Webb, Burnes, Fried, etc.

mariodegenzgz
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

I think what made Sandy unique is, had he stayed healthy, his style of pitching would’ve led to him piling up outrageous inning totals for today’s game, enough of an outlier to make him a statistical anomaly worth highlighting two decades from now.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Now Burnes is someone who has a decent chance, as he’s been elite for 4 straight years and is only 29.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  mariodegenzgz

The Hall is going to have to figure out how to handle starters from the current era. But that doesn’t mean we need to soften the standards for starters from previous eras (not that you would need tons of softening to let CC in).

The dude is the very definition of borderline. I literally never thought I was watching a HOFer when he pitched, and I doubt I’m alone in that. But the career numbers merit serious consideration.

Last edited 2 years ago by synco
sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

My cutoff for an “ace” is 5 wins or higher. By fWAR, he had 6 consecutive seasons that beat that. I think that’s probably enough. But some of them were just over.

I think you could maybe make an argument against him. He’s not a slam-dunk choice. Same with Greinke, who only had three of those seasons with one of them being a monster, 8+ win year. Scherzer, Verlander, and Kershaw are all clearly stronger. But we’re in the middle of a big shift in how many innings starters pitch, so it’s not clear we’re going to get many after Scherzer / Verlander / Kershaw. So it’s totally reasonable if you want to put Greinke and Sabathia in. I think I’m in favor of both.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I don’t really see him as a HOFer either, but man per career he’s right on the border. Maybe the definition of the border. Tough one.

Last edited 2 years ago by synco
kevbren849
2 years ago

My favorite Ichiro story is that late in his career, he was doing a pre-season workout with his trainer. He gets back to the locker room and checks his phone, and he has a text from an unknown # saying he got Ichiro’s # from A-Rod, and he’d like to talk about what kind of exercises he uses to stay in shape as he gets older. Ichiro gets to the bottom and says, “who the f*** is Tom Brady?”

Mitchell MooreMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

If that’s a true story, it makes me love Ichiro even more.

Mean Mr. Mustard
2 years ago
Reply to  kevbren849

“August in Kansas City is hotter than two rats fucking in a wool sock”

EltnegMember since 2020
2 years ago

Had to look up the 1971 ballot because I couldn’t belive Yogi Berra didn’t get in on his first try, and wow for all the complaints about voting today it used to be much more bizarre.

Richie Ashburn got 2.8% in his 9th year! Johnny Vander Meer (119-121 career record) got more votes than Hal Newhouser (207-150, Triple Crown, 2x MVP)! Duke Snyder couldn’t crack 25%, while Matty Marion, a SS with a career 263/323/345 slash, got 34%!

Last edited 2 years ago by Eltneg
Left of Centerfield
2 years ago
Reply to  Eltneg

48 players on the ballot! We’d need to clone Jay to get through all that work (btw, cloning Jay may be a good idea either way).

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Eltneg

Old-timey votes were nuts, random, and highly, highly affected by relationships and narrative.

jb1205Member since 2022
2 years ago

McCann & Martin not only put up career WAR numbers similar to Mauer, they also did it while playing primary as catchers- both started over 1500 games behind the plate, compared to 900 for Mauer. Their peaks may have been slightly lower, but they both continued to provide more value than Mauer past their peaks.

CC AFCMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  jb1205

Despite the WAR components, I don’t view their candidacies as similar to Mauer and Posey. Soooo much of their value was tied up in defense, which I think is very difficult to measure accurately. I’m willing to say they were very good defensive catchers. I’m not convinced they were so good defensively that it overcame the offensive gap between them and Mauer/Posey. It’s like the opposite of Sheffield: Sheff was bad defensively, but I’m not sure he was so historically bad defensively he lapped his peers in awful defense.

I’ve also said this elsewhere, but even if we fully credit their measurements on framing, I’m not sure I care much about framing as part of a hall of fame candidacy. It surely impacted the game, but it’s a dumb part of the game that’s about manipulating umpires. Even if someone was good at and it helped their team, I consider that far less worthy of honorifics than hitting, baserunning, pitching, non-framing defense. I’m not about to argue an nba player should get extra credit in their candidacy because they were great at working the refs and flopping.

Last edited 2 years ago by CC AFC
Roger McDowell Hot Foot
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Soooo much of their value was tied up in defense, which I think is very difficult to measure accurately

[…]

even if we fully credit their measurements on framing, I’m not sure I care much about framing as part of a hall of fame candidacy

There are two pieces to this argument and I think they need to be handled separately.

The first is that we’re currently quite bad at evaluating/quantifying catchers’ defense, and we’re even worse in pre-Statcast retrospect. The current framing numbers are suspect to say the least, much less the retrospective ones; and game-calling — which is probably the biggest defensive-skill component of catching! — just flatly hasn’t been quantified at all (at least outside of cERA and similarly non-credible efforts). There’s no obvious way to fix this, in Hall of Fame candidacy arguments, besides resorting to subjective eye tests, reputational metrics, and so on. That is, we have to remember that what we can measure isn’t everything.*

The second argument, whether framing should count even if somehow properly measured, is a whole other can of worms. I disagree with you about this, and about the analogy to flopping, but I don’t think an argument about it would even be worth getting into until the first question is better resolved, at least not for Hall of Fame purposes.

* Poorly measured catching defense drove me nuts with Piazza’s reputation while playing and seemed to color his candidacy for the Hall as well, because he had a reputation as a poor-to-average defender due entirely to his noodle arm, when his game-calling and (then unmeasurable) framing skills were, at least according to pitchers, very good. It’s interesting to see him moving up the ranks in articles like this, post-induction.

jrothMember since 2026
2 years ago

I have no moral or ethical qualms about framing; it’s just the order of magnitude that’s suspicious. And a guy like Molina, whose numbers are way the hell below the standard without that magnitude of framing, raises my eyebrows. Especially so since it appears to be the case that we’ll have apples-to-apples framing stats for less than 15 years, plus another ~20 years of interpolated stats, and then nobody after will have access to that value and everybody before just gets a shrug.

Imagine walking through the Hall in 2100 and explaining why Molina, Russell, and McCann are there: “Well, you see, framing used to be a thing….” “Was Molina a better framer than Johnny Bench?” “We have no idea.”

The Duke
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

Agree. I think it’s odd to reward WAR points for an interim count during an at bat. And I further think it’s odd that the measure is so impactful that it makes other catcher metrics pale in comparison.

I’d rather have a subjective stat that says “XYZ catcher was one of the best /worst framers of the season”

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  CC AFC

On the other hand, Molina WAS that great defensively to close the offensive gap between him and Mauer/Posey.

jrothMember since 2026
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

It doesn’t, though. Even when you include framing, Molina’s peak is way, way below Posey’s. Molina catches up due to longevity—which is real value, especially at a hard-to-fill position like C. But don’t imagine that Molina’s defense “made up” for his lack of offense: on a game-by-game basis, he was worse than Posey, Mauer, Russell, and McCann, and it’s not even close.

The Duke
2 years ago

Four guys cleared off the ballot this year should eliminate any full ballot issues. Wagner, Ichiro and sabathia will all go in and this will leave the ballot to flawed plus HOVG guys.

Martins numbers are amazing – just didn’t think of him as a HOFr but McCann I think will get a long look.

2wins87
2 years ago

Martin and McCann are sure to create some interesting conversations next year.

I think Molina is a lot different in that he already had a reputation for being on another level defensively and for working with pitchers. Then pitch framing metrics came along and confirmed what everyone already believed. I think if the framing data didn’t exist there would still be a very strong argument made for him based on his “intangibles” and how hard it is to truly measure catcher’s defense, and he could certainly still get in, though the fight would likely be much harder.

I don’t think there would have even been a conversation about McCann and Martin without the framing data. I don’t disbelieve the framing data, but I still have a hard time seeing either as HOF candidates. Great long careers for sure, but it’s hard not to want to question their cases built so heavily around framing.

I think the issue is that there was only a short 5-10 year period from the introduction of pitch tracking allowing for pretty accurate framing metrics to the point where every team began coaching and selecting for it, and the umpires began training and being selected against the same pitch tracking data. In that short period there were some truly bonkers differences in framing among catchers, and those differences will never be seen again, even without an ABS system. I don’t disbelieve the framing data for Martin and McCann, but I also think they played in a very short era where we really won’t be able to compare them against past or future catchers.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  2wins87

Martin is a tough one. So much of HOF voting is about offense, and he was league average-ish there over his career – very valuable from a catcher, but HOF careers aren’t built on being league average.

It’s that 10-year run of otherworldly catcher defense that puts him in the conversation. And even the framing question aside, we’re so bad at measuring catcher defense. And we know we’re bad at it.

I’d probably punt on his candidacy for now, and wait and see if we come up with better measures.

jrothMember since 2026
2 years ago
Reply to  2wins87

Completely agree with your last line, but I just don’t think you can give Molina credit but not those two. Molina is the only catcher in the top 32 of fWAR with a wRC+ below 100: the only way he gets in is by arguing that he was defensively far more valuable than literally a dozen guys that nobody has ever called a HoFer. It’s not as if he’s the first guy with that kind of reputation, but he’s the guy with that reputation that’s getting WAR credit for framing on top of the quantifiables that apply to every other catcher.

JeremyMember since 2016
2 years ago

Small correction: Pettitte is listed as falling off the ballot in 2028, but still included in the list of holdovers for 2029.

Jon L.Member since 2016
2 years ago

Was anyone else stunned to see Greinke listed together with Kershaw as a sure-fire first-ballot entry?

Kershaw had a clear Hall of Fame-level run of dominance lasting over half a decade, has the feel-good component of spending his whole career (or at least the first many years of it) with one team, and yes, he’s a really obvious first-ballot Hall of Famer. Greinke meanwhile has only ever had 3 (fWAR) or 4 (bWAR) 5-WAR seasons in his career, and they’re scattered about, mostly coming with different teams, with very moderate, non-HOF-level performances immediately following each of his best seasons.

I don’t think Greinke has the aura of a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and I’m not even sure he has the stats.

2wins87
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

I don’t know. Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, and Greinke are pretty widely regarded as the pitchers of the post-PED era. Greinke’s full body of work might be a bit below that of Verlander and Kershaw, but they all seem pretty obvious to me.

68FCMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

I wish bREF would show split-seasons as one line item, Greinke actually has 5 seasons of 5+ bWAR, they just split 2019 into two lines because he was traded midseason.

Just off straight up career total bWAR (not adjusted for era or workload), Greinke is 29th among all SP. Granted that does incorporate offense and fielding, which Greinke excelled at. By unadjusted JAWS he’s 32nd right between Schilling, Mussina, Glavine, and Nolan Ryan.

Kershaw has the clustered peak of great seasons where he got a bunch of hardware, but Greinke has two seasons with a higher bWAR than Kershaw’s best. Since he debuted, Greinke has the only 10 bWAR pitching season and 2 of 4 seasons with 8.9 bWAR. By RA/9WAR, since 2004 there have been 3 9.5 WAR seasons, two of those are Greinke.

Having two historically elite seasons and being very good and occasionally great for the rest of a 20 year career is 1st ballot material to me. By all three primary pitching WARs (bWAR, fWAR, and RA/9WAR) he is in the top 4 for the millennium and baring a major change in the game, should hold that spot for a long, long time as he has about a 20+ WAR lead in all over the top active pitcher. (He might slip to 5th in fWAR if he is below replacement level next year as he is only .1 fWAR ahead of Sabathia, the other WARs have a 7-10 WAR lead on 5th).

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  68FC

Wow, that’s weird! B-Ref does include TOTAL lines for such seasons in the Standard, Advanced, and Fielding Stats, but they’ve neglected to include it only for the Player Value Stats.

Jon L.Member since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  68FC

ugh, my oversight on that 5th 5-win bWAR season

i thought based on the article and previous comments that others might have a different perspective. i guess i’m pretty convinced by the arguments here, but still not convinced the voters would have Greinke in the same tier as Kershaw. i guess time will tell

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

Of course, it’s not like any of the voters have Ortiz in the same tier as Beltre.

Greinke’s definitely the 4th best of that crew (assuming Scherzer isn’t done) but he’s also clearly a HoF by any evidence based method.

68FCMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

Oh they are probably in a different tier, just like Beltre and Mauer are in different tiers. Kershaw should get 95%+ of the vote, Greinke will probably be a 1st ballot inductee, but will almost certainly get sub-90% of the vote.

Mean Mr. Mustard
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

It’s worth mentioning that he almost quit baseball in his first few pro years because of anxiety.

Like CC, overcoming a pretty significant disability shouldn’t be discounted.

synco
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

Greinke is one of those dudes who looks very different in fWAR and bWAR. fWAR has him at 66.6, which is near the borderline but on the in-side.

By bWAR he’s at 77.5, which is easily in. He’d be one of the great anomalies if out.

Last edited 2 years ago by synco
Jon L.Member since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  synco

yeah, i missed his batting WAR, which is listed separately. 5.1 WAR does a lot of work at the margins to take you from qualified to pretty damn hard to keep out

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

Not to mention that even the DIPSiest among us shouldn’t ignore Greinke’s 6 Gold Gloves and 93 DRS when discussing the fact that his RA9 outperformed his FIP.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

Not a single BBWAA writer is going to reference Greinke’s fWAR in their decision, unless they’re mocking it for preferring Pettitte’s career.

Beyond the fact that anyone who’s read the FanGraphs Library article on BABIP knows that Greinke’s had nearly quintuple the necessary batted hall events to establish his BABIP as earned…Greinke’s an elite defensive pitcher, to the point where his 93 DRS is higher than his 7.5 FDP-Wins!

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Jon L.

To be fair, one can be clearly below a first-ballot Hall of Famer and still be a Hall of Famer! I don’t think there’s much comparison between Kershaw / Verlander / Scherzer on the one hand and Greinke on the other but you don’t have to compare Greinke to those guys. He and Sabathia are potentially stronger candidates than guys like Glavine, Bunning, and Robin Roberts, and nobody is agitating to kick them out of the Hall.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Except at stopping people from scoring runs.

Glavine was quite good at that, too;

He played six years with Andruw in CF.

In the six years before, he put up 5.7 more RA9-WAR than FIP-WAR.

In the six years after, he put up 4.7 more RA9-WAR than FIP-WAR.

There’s just no evidence-based argument for using FIP-WAR over a sample size as long as Greinke’s, much less Glavine’s, that doesn’t also imply we should regress hitter BABIP.

Last edited 2 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
fanofthemanMember since 2020
2 years ago

It is a bummer to see the (correct) analysis suggesting that Wainwright won’t make the hall of fame. His career stands out to me as a Cardinals fan, but clearly a hall of very good guy who may one day sneak in on veteran’s committee type shenanigans.

On the other hand, he did just sign to broadcast games, and he is very much the type who I could imagine broadcasting for decades. Maybe he’ll get in on the combined weight of his baseball life after 20 years each of pitching and broadcasting.

Doug LampertMember since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  fanoftheman

Wainwright strikes me as a clear-cut member of the Hall of Very Good.

I did like his commentary when I heard it and am happy to hear he’s got a broadcast contract.

jrothMember since 2026
2 years ago

I don’t think you can talk about Pedroia’s candidacy without talking about the shocking difference in how FG and B-R view his career: one thinks he was just A Guy who had 2 excellent seasons but was never on track for the Hall*, while the other thinks he was perennially a top position player who was just 3 decline seasons from punching his ticket with 60 WAR. In fact, B-R thinks he was distinctly better than David Wright, while FG sees a 7 WAR gap in Wright’s favor.

B-R likes DP more in almost every seasons, but the really stark difference comes at the end, where FG sees his last 3 pre-Machado seasons as worth 7.1 WAR while B-R sees 8.6. I’d really like someone to look at Statcast and the other defensive metrics for that period (since it’s not as if the two systems differ much on offensive value).

*outside the 2 peak seasons, FG thinks Pedroia was a little worse than Starling Marte

catmanwayne
2 years ago
Reply to  jroth

Pedroia was still excellent at plate discipline and pretty decent at getting some base hits after The Machado Incident, but everything else tanked. Couldn’t hit the ball hard or barrel it up as much, couldn’t run, and his defense cratered. Obviously those things go quickly after your knee gets blown out, but he still had the foundation of a player who could have declined more gently if it wasn’t for the gruesome injuries.

jrothMember since 2026
2 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

Right, but then it’s a question of what kind of player he’d been all along. If FG assesses him correctly, then he still needed 3 excellent (say 4+ WAR) or 5 good years to be in the conversation, while B-R thinks he was an ordinary decline phase from deserving a good, hard look. I don’t think that level of disagreement is common, and I hope someone digs into it.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  jroth

It’s pretty much all down to defense.

B-Ref’s (market-based) positional adjustment gives Pedey 20 more runs than FG’s, Pre-Statcast DRS gives Pedroia 11 more runs than UZR…and post-Statcast DRS gives Pedroia 21 more runs than RAA.

I do prefer B-Ref’s methodology for positional adjustments…but I also weight RAA far more highly than DRS/UZR, which cancels it out.

Last edited 2 years ago by Cool Lester Smooth
Lanidrac
2 years ago

I still say Albert Pujols has just as good of a chance as Ichiro Suzuki at nabbing 100% of the vote.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

We will have to wait a little while to find out but Pujols has a case for the best first baseman ever. Especially if Musial counts as an outfielder.

Mean Mr. Mustard
2 years ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Gehrig would like a word about the Musial assertion, but given the disparity in eras I have to give Pujols the nod over both.

68FCMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I suspect there probably be a voter or two who will hold his Angels tenure or the unfounded age allegations against him. There were voters that managed to not vote for Griffey, Seager, and Ripken.

Handsome Wes
2 years ago

Okay, so what hat does CC wear?
Yankees stats: 307 games (134-88 W/L), 4 ASG, 3x top 5 CY finishes, ALCS MVP, 1 WS ring

Cleveland stats: 237 games (106-71 W/L), 3 ASGs, 2x top 5 CY finish (one Cy Young)

Yankees have a case but had a substantial enough career elsewhere to warrant a blank cap.

catmanwayne
2 years ago
Reply to  Handsome Wes

This Milwaukee erasure will not stand, man!

Mean Mr. Mustard
2 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

Shut up, Donny. A half-season does not merit a HoF cap decision, no matter how heroic it was.

Mean Mr. Mustard
2 years ago
Reply to  Handsome Wes

Given the (much) heavier media scrutiny of the NY market, his excellence there, the reinvention there, and the milestones there, I think it’d have to be the Yankees.

Lanidrac
2 years ago
Reply to  Handsome Wes

Speaking of which, Beltre goes in as a Ranger, right?

Mean Mr. Mustard
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

I don’t think there’s even a question about that one.

Jon L.Member since 2016
2 years ago
Reply to  Handsome Wes

The man plays softball in Central Park. He’s going in as a Yankee.
https://www.curbed.com/2021/05/what-its-like-to-be-softball-teammates-with-c-c-sabathia.html

Lanidrac
2 years ago

Molina was known for more than just pitch framing and game calling. He was also elite at blocking balls in the dirt (until the last few years of his career) and throwing out runners with his arm cannon (either by caught stealing, pickoffs, or assists on balls in play). He’s probably one of the three best defensive catchers in baseball history alongside Bench and Pudge. He also developed into a pretty good hitter.

That’s being said, his offensive numbers and advanced metrics are still somewhat light even among catchers, which I think will cost him enough initial votes that I don’t think he will make it on his first ballot, even with coattail support from Pujols.

Last edited 2 years ago by Lanidrac
marchandman34Member since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

While Ivan had an all-time arm, his game calling/framing is pretty average, he doesn’t belong with Bench or Yadi.

catmanwayne
2 years ago

I think Ichiro and C.C. are first ballot guys next year, easily. They both have the accolades, counting stats, have more than 60 WAR each, and they’re also pretty solid people off the field. The only debate will be what percentage of the votes they bring in. You know there will probably be a handful of writers who’ll leave them off the ballot for one dumb reason or another.

“If Jeter, Griffey, and Beltre didn’t get all of the votes, than neither should anybody else,” they will say.

As for the catchers coming up on the future ballots, I think only Molina and Posey get in. Molina because of his defensive reputation and really long and solid career with just one team. He also has over 2,000 hits, 400 doubles, and 1,000 RBIs so the counting stats guys will love that. Posey had a godlike peak, and was part of the Giants dynasty of the early 2010s, but the knock against him is the lack of longevity. He didn’t play way into his mid-late 30s, because he got too banged up behind the plate and didn’t want to keep going. Arguably, he’s the sandy Koufax of catchers.

The Duke
2 years ago
Reply to  catmanwayne

Agreed and this is what makes Molinas achievements hall-worthy. He just stuck it out behind the plate every year (at a high level).

Mauer couldn’t do it, Posey couldn’t do it. Even Martin /McCann were done as full time catchers at 33 and then had three years in a timeshare

Bench was done at 35 but hadn’t been effective for several years. Freehan was done young.

There have been a handful that have soldiered into their late 30s but not many

Binyamin
2 years ago

Next year’s fawning over the only briefly brilliant Ichiro would be more palatable to me if the various committees would finally and deservedly select the guys one spot above him and one spot below him on the JAWS list for RFs — Dwight Evans and Reggie Smith.

68FCMember since 2020
2 years ago
Reply to  Binyamin

“Briefly brilliant”? Smith and Evans should be in, but we don’t need to pretend like they are all in the same bucket. Ichiro has a peak score more than 5 wins higher than either of them. They are only next to him in JAWS because they accumulated more WAR because they were in the big leagues in their early 20s while Ichiro didn’t debut until 27.

If Ichiro had debuted at 23 and averaged 3.5 WAR for those extra 4 seasons (he was one of, if not THE, best players in Japan from age 20 on and his worst MLB season in his first decade in MLB was 3.6 bWAR). Then he would have 14 more bWAR and be well ahead of either of them in JAWS.

Delgado4HOF
2 years ago

Yadier Molina shouldn’t sniff 5%

jmlease1
2 years ago

I have a lot of trouble with the Martin & McCann candidacies, but I don’t think either is going to get all that much traction. there’s just too much value that’s being based on pitch-framing and uncertain defensive stats.

Martin is going to be hurt by the fact that he played for 4 different teams and only won one GG. And only reaching 500 PA 6 times in his whole career isn’t going to help either. (even with his injury issues, Mauer did that 7 times during his years as a catcher) McCann does better, but staking a Hall case on defense when you never won a GG is going to be tough for voters to swallow, and Mauer was much much better offensively than either, even with his decline years at 1B. Pass on both.