Giants Trade Patrick Bailey to Guardians as Buster Posey Shakes It up Again

In his first three seasons, Patrick Bailey carved a niche as one of the game’s top defensive catchers, dominating the Statcast defensive leaderboards and winning two Gold Gloves. The development of his offense has lagged, however, and with the Giants struggling to score runs and sporting one of the majors’ worst records, they’ve decide they can live without Bailey’s glovework. On Saturday, they traded the 27-year-old backstop to the Guardians for 23-year-old lefty pitching prospect Matt “Tugboat” Wilkinson and a Competitive Balance pick in the upcoming draft.
This is the second season in a row that president of baseball operations Buster Posey has shaken up San Francisco’s roster with an early-season trade; last year, it was the mid-June acquisition of slugger Rafael Devers in a blockbuster with Boston. You don’t have to squint too hard to accept that both trades were aimed at upgrading moribund offenses, but when the Giants dealt for Devers, they were 11 games above .500 (41-30), one game behind the Dodgers in the NL West. They felt they’d landed the offensive cornerstone that had eluded them after unsuccessful pursuits of Aaron Judge and Shohei Ohtani, a player who could help them return to the postseason for the first time since 2021. This time around, they entered the day of the trade 15-23, last in the division, and the move appears far more tilted toward the future, as Wilkinson has just gotten his feet wet in Double-A and the draft pick won’t make an immediate impact.
If this trade had occurred just prior to the deadline (August 3 this year), it might have been characterized as a white flag, part of a larger selloff. To these eyes, it’s a shakeup that at worst smacks of panic and at best places a lot of faith that Posey — a likely Hall of Fame catcher who has yet to show similar prowess as an executive — has found a diamond or two in the rough with his two recent catching acquisitions: Jesus Rodriguez, who came from the Yankees in last year’s Camilo Doval trade, and Daniel Susac, who was flipped by the Twins in December after being plucked from the A’s as a Rule 5 pick. Both are 24 years old and have fewer than 10 games of major league experience, with Susac, who turns 25 on May 14, currently on a rehab assignment after being sidelined by neuritis in his right elbow. Eric Haase, a 33-year-old backstop who hit his way out of a starting job in Detroit in 2023, started in Saturday’s 13-3 drubbing by the Pirates — San Francisco’s ninth loss in 11 games — while Rodriguez started Sunday’s 7-6 win, which lifted the team’s record to 16-24, still third worst in the NL.
Undeniably, the Giants aren’t in great shape. They’re last in the majors in runs per game (3.25) and walk rate (5.5%, 2.2 points below the 29th-ranked Diamondbacks), in a virtual tie for last in on-base percentage with the Mets (.287), and second to last in wRC+ (84). The switch-hitting Bailey was helping to drag the offense down, hitting just .146/.213/.183 in 89 plate appearances. Including his 0-for-3 in Sunday’s debut for the Guardians (a 5-4 loss to the Twins), his 13 wRC+ is ahead of only the Reds’ Ke’Bryan Hayes (12 wRC+) for the majors’ lowest among the 260 hitters with at least 90 plate appearances.
With a career line of .230/.287/.340 entering 2026, Bailey was by no means a good hitter. His 76 wRC+ from 2023–25 placed in the eighth percentile among players with at least 600 plate appearances, but within that group, he was the only one to produce at least 10.0 WAR (10.2) in that span despite a wRC+ below 100.
Relative to last season, Bailey has made adjustments to his swing and his stance on both sides of the plate. His swing has less tilt, his attack angle has decreased, and most noticeably, he’s closed his stance while batting left-handed (from 11 degrees open to zero), and opened it up extremely while batting right-handed (from eight degrees open to 25 degrees open). From both sides, he’s swinging harder, with his overall fast swing rate nearly doubling, from 15.8% overall to 29.5% and his current averages of 72.7 mph from the left and 73.3 mph from the right both up over one mph from last year. But while he’s hit the ball harder as his swing rate, chase rate, whiff rate, and strikeout rate have all decreased (the last down from a career-high 29.4% to 25.0%), he’s not getting much bang for his buck:
| Season | Events | EV | LA | Brl% | HH% | AVG | xBA | SLG | xSLG | wOBA | xwOBA |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2023 | 229 | 88.7 | 10.1 | 10.0% | 38.4% | .233 | .244 | .359 | .421 | .282 | .312 |
| 2024 | 309 | 91.3 | 12.1 | 5.5% | 42.7% | .234 | .255 | .339 | .404 | .281 | .322 |
| 2025 | 286 | 88.2 | 15.6 | 5.6% | 36.4% | .222 | .210 | .325 | .333 | .265 | .264 |
| 2026 | 62 | 90.0 | 10.8 | 4.8% | 40.3% | .141 | .220 | .176 | .340 | .184 | .275 |
Bailey’s expected numbers have improved over last season, though they’re short of his marks from 2023 and ’24. The gaps between his actual and expected numbers are second only to Hayes’ in all three categories. At least some of that owes to the fact that Bailey’s overall groundball rate has spiked from 38.5% to 46.7%, more than offsetting his increased pull rate (from 33.2% to 38.2%), because he’s not elevating those balls. His pulled air rate has dropped from 17.1% to 13.3%, while his pulled groundball rate has risen from 16.1% to 25.0%.
Defensively, Bailey remains elite. He currently leads the majors in FRV (6) and Statcast’s version of framing runs (5), something he’s done annually since debuting in 2023. His 83 FRV and 69 Statcast framing runs since the start of that season are both 32 more than the second-ranked Alejandro Kirk. By our metrics, his 63.7 FRM is nearly as far ahead of his new backup in Cleveland, Austin Hedges (34.7), and his 54 DRS (the non-framing version) is 12 more than second-ranked Freddy Fermin. That defensive prowess has made Bailey the majors’ fifth-most valuable catcher overall from 2023–26, behind only Cal Raleigh, William Contreras, Will Smith, and Adley Rutschman, all of whom contribute significantly more than Bailey on offense.
As Posey’s first spring training at the helm began in February 2025, according to The Athletic’s Andrew Baggarly, he emphasized that Bailey’s statistical dominance wasn’t enough. “Honestly, my focus in that conversation was, ‘Patty, first and foremost, your responsibility is to lead the staff… And that’s not just framing metrics or how many runners you’re throwing out. It’s truly to lead the staff.’ That’s where I want his focus to be,” said Posey at the time.
The Giants reportedly mulled the possibility of new manager Tony Vitello calling pitches from the dugout as he did at Tennessee, and as the Marlins are doing this season. Bailey was not a fan of the idea, and wasn’t alone among Giants who pushed back. Staff ace Logan Webb, who was one of the players against the idea, praised Bailey’s preparation and game-calling, and even Vitello expressed reservations about whether it would work.
Still, Baggarly pointed to a couple of incidents in an April 30 doubleheader sweep by the Phillies where Bailey’s game-calling particularly backfired. He called nine consecutive sinkers from Ryan Walker to Bryson Stott in the opener, the last of which was hit for a game-tying triple, and called seven consecutive splitters from Keaton Winn to Kyle Schwarber in the nightcap, the last of which was hit for a game-tying double. The Phillies walked off San Francisco in both games, with Stott scoring the winning run in the opener.
The Giants may have something with their two young catchers, despite their inexperience. Both the Yankees, who signed Rodriguez out of Venezuela in 2018, and the Giants, who acquired him along with three other prospects in a July 31 trade for Doval, have used him in a utility capacity; last year, between Double-A Somerset and Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre and Sacramento, he hit a combined .307/.393/.403 (118 wRC+) while catching 60 games and playing 23 at third base. This year at Sacramento, he caught 16 games, played left field for five — something he did 12 times at High-A Hudson Valley in 2024 — and second base for two. He debuted in the majors last Monday, and hit his first home run on Tuesday as part of a 2-for-3 night against the Padres; he went 2-for-3 again on Wednesday while starting in right field. Last year, he received a 40+ FV grade from our prospect team as a third baseman while being described as “incredibly raw at all facets of catching,” but Eric Longenhagen’s latest report suggests Rodriguez has continued to improve and might be a 45 FV:
This is an exceptionally quick athlete with below-average pure arm strength who too frequently fumbles his exchange. That’s something one could reasonably project Rodriguez to do. To the eye, he’s an above-average framer and a source had him at +4 framing runs all of last year in just 60 games because he was also playing other positions. Though his throwing needs polish and his ball-blocking (below average, lots of long rebounds) might be limited by his lack of size, framing is the most important skill of the three, and Rodriguez could end up being really good at it. Great timing, deft hands, and plus barrel feel spearhead a plus-contact skillset despite below-average bat speed, power, and plate discipline.
Rodriguez has a funky stance and big movements in the batter’s box, but he tracks pitches really well, his hands tend to find the baseball, and he ends up spraying all kinds of line drive contact into play. Were he not so chase prone, this would be the kind of player who’d project to outhit his raw power in games, as his feel for the barrel is very good. This is where I think the statistical projections are a little off base, in assuming Rodriguez’s plate discipline (he has tended to run double-digit walk rates) will translate. His more granular chase data (32% overall, 51% with two strikes, 40% against breaking balls) is not so bad to worry that he will end up struggling to the degree that Keibert Ruiz has, but I think he’s more likely to be a .250/.310/.350-type hitter than the .275/.335/.375 one ZiPS thinks he is.
Longenhagen also provided a supercut of Rodriguez’s recent framing:
Susac, the 19th pick of the 2022 draft, is a 40-FV prospect who hit .275/.349/.483 (94 wRC+) with 18 homers at Triple-A Las Vegas last year. Brendan Gawlowski wrote about him when he was taken in the Rule 5 draft last December:
The Athletics’ first-rounder out of Arizona back in 2022, Susac was seen as a high-floor selection at the time due to his ability to catch. He has good hands, reportedly works well with the staff, and should be at least an average defensive catcher. The bat hasn’t come along at all, though. Despite decent surface-level stats, Susac is overly aggressive, and his slow bat and surround-the-ball swing are unlikely to translate well against elite arms. He projects as a backup or third catcher depending on how much you like the defense. Might a family connection have played a role? Susac is the younger brother of Andrew Susac, who was Giants GM Buster Posey’s backup at one point.
Susac homered twice for Sacramento as a designated hitter on Thursday and caught seven innings on Sunday in his first rehab appearance behind the plate. He could return at some point this week.
As for the Giants’ return, the Vancouver-born Wilkinson is a 45-FV prospect who lists at 6-foot-1 and 250 pounds and has the delightful nickname “Tugboat” thanks to “a slow-moving ‘heater’ that’s pulling his entire profile,” as our prospect team wrote in January. A 10th-round pick in 2023 out of Central Arizona College, he posted a 4.24 ERA, a 4.17 FIP, and a 26.2% strikeout rate in 104 innings last season at High-A Lake County. In 28 1/3 innings at Double-A Akron this year, he ran a 1.59 ERA and a 2.61 FIP with a 33.6% strikeout rate. Here’s some recent video:
And Longenhagen’s update:
He’s still sitting 90, but his heater continues to play like an elite pitch, generating a 37% miss rate (including his WBC outings for Team Canada) so far this year. Because the Guardians promoted him pretty conservatively, it’s been tough to know how his fastball would do against good hitters, but between the WBC and now six Double-A starts, it sure looks like it’s going to. He’s going to be able to pitch backwards off backdoor sliders and elevate his fastball to finish guys off, and the same mechanical looseness that helps hide his fastball will do the same for his changeup. It’s not as if they’ve traded the next Parker Messick (Tugboat’s changeup quality isn’t quite that good), but some of the deceptive elements and style of athleticism (this is a husky guy, but he’s super mobile) are the same. If the fact that he sits 90 turns out to be a problem against big league hitters — which will remain a possibility until Wilkinson proves it’s not — then I still think we’re looking at a Yusmeiro Petit-type long reliever. More likely, Wilkinson looks like a good team’s no. 4/5 starter, the sort who is on the fringe of making its playoff rotation.
Meanwhile, the Giants also get the 29th pick of a deeper-than-normal draft, and with it a $3.2 million bonus allotment. Combine that with their $9 million allotment for the fourth-overall pick, and suddenly the Giants have the flexibility to reallocate money to pay above-slot values for some later picks.
As for the Guardians, at 21-21 they somehow lead the AL Central. Bo Naylor, who started 23 of the team’s first 40 games before being optioned to the minors on Saturday, has started almost as slowly as Bailey, hitting .143/.200/.238 (23 wRC+) with two home runs in 90 plate appearances. His defense has been more solid than spectacular (-0.6 FRM, 0 FRV), and he has minor league options remaining, unlike the 33-year-old Hedges, who owns a career 51 wRC+ but is currently hitting an improbably robust .294/.351/.431 (119 wRC+) in 57 plate appearances. (Naylor will eventually be assigned to Triple-A, but the Guardians are first sending him to their complex in Goodyear, Arizona, “for a mini reset without the daily rigors of game activity,” according to Zack Meisel of The Athletic.) The Guardians do have a type, as they’ve spent over a decade fielding Bailey-ish catchers, light hitters who are at least solid defenders, if not necessarily among the game’s elite:
| Player | Seasons | G | PA | HR | AVG | OBP | SLG | wRC+ | BsR | Off | Def | WAR |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Roberto Pérez | 2015–21 | 436 | 1572 | 51 | .200 | .294 | .356 | 75 | -7.4 | -55.9 | 94.6 | 9.4 |
| Yan Gomes | 2015–18 | 369 | 1442 | 51 | .232 | .280 | .402 | 78 | -4.9 | -41.9 | 37.2 | 4.4 |
| Bo Naylor | 2022–26 | 307 | 1078 | 36 | .202 | .281 | .369 | 83 | 0.5 | -21.2 | 28.4 | 4.4 |
| Austin Hedges | 2020–26 | 316 | 1043 | 25 | .172 | .236 | .276 | 44 | -3.3 | -71.8 | 58.6 | 2.2 |
| Luke Maile | 2022 | 63 | 206 | 3 | .221 | .301 | .326 | 82 | -0.9 | -5 | 5.1 | 0.7 |
| Kevin Plawecki | 2019 | 50 | 170 | 3 | .219 | .282 | .342 | 65 | -1.2 | -8.9 | 8.1 | 0.5 |
| Cam Gallagher | 2023 | 53 | 149 | 0 | .126 | .154 | .168 | -18 | -0.2 | -21.2 | 9.1 | -0.7 |
| Chris Gimenez | 2016 | 50 | 148 | 4 | .226 | .278 | .346 | 63 | -1.2 | -7.7 | 2.2 | -0.1 |
| Mike Zunino | 2023 | 41 | 140 | 3 | .177 | .271 | .306 | 63 | -1.4 | -7.7 | -0.2 | -0.3 |
| David Fry | 2023–26 | 43 | 115 | 8 | .347 | .426 | .673 | 204 | -0.4 | 13.6 | -3.5 | 1.4 |
| Sandy León | 2020-22 | 27 | 99 | 2 | .128 | .313 | .218 | 64 | -1.3 | -5.7 | 0.9 | -0.1 |
| René Rivera | 2021 | 19 | 62 | 2 | .241 | .305 | .407 | 98 | -0.3 | -0.5 | -0.7 | 0.1 |
Only once since 2020 has a Guardians catcher reached 2.0 WAR in a season: 2023, when the rookie Naylor hit 11 home runs with a 123 wRC+ in 67 games for 2.1 WAR. Even with his light offense, Bailey’s defense offers a potential upgrade, and instead of the pressure that comes with both filling Posey’s sizable shoes and having him looking over his shoulder, Bailey will have another former catcher, Stephen Vogt, as his manager.
Posey is likely on his way to Cooperstown, but he’s still fairly green as an executive. Two of his biggest swings since taking over at the end of the 2024 season – the Devers trade and the hiring of Vitello straight from the college ranks — haven’t panned out yet, in that Devers is currently carrying a 79 wRC+, and Vitello got off to a rough start in communicating with his team and remains under heavy scrutiny. With the Giants enduring their worst start since 2017 and threatening to extend their postseason drought, Posey has taken another big swing with an early shakeup. We’ll see if this one connects.
Brooklyn-based Jay Jaffe is a senior writer for FanGraphs, the author of The Cooperstown Casebook (Thomas Dunne Books, 2017) and the creator of the JAWS (Jaffe WAR Score) metric for Hall of Fame analysis. He founded the Futility Infielder website (2001), was a columnist for Baseball Prospectus (2005-2012) and a contributing writer for Sports Illustrated (2012-2018). He has been a recurring guest on MLB Network and a member of the BBWAA since 2011, and a Hall of Fame voter since 2021. Follow him on BlueSky @jayjaffe.bsky.social.
This is an interesting case study on catcher defense and value. Are Posey’s reservations justified, are they simply the function of differing styles between he and Bailey, personality / egos….i.e. Bailey “stepping on” Vitello’s pitch-calling turf, or something else?
Whichever way the above is or goes, framing runs / stolen bases / wild patches, despite being measurable, seem to be a pretty small portion of the catcher’s defensive value. It’ll be interesting to see how Bailey fares in Cleveland and how the staff responds.
This saga’s a very interesting reminder / reinforcement that defense is a complex system especially compared against relatively straightforward offensive linear input and output.
I still think positional adjustments (I suspect the currently listed ones don’t hold) and defensive value capture (I suspect a systems-based-view of defense might mean a lower defensive proportion of individual player WAR than is stated) could use further looks.
Sometimes I wonder how much former players in the front office have special insight into the demands / requirements / performance of their position and how much of it is distorted by their own success. Buster Posey is the greatest catcher of the 21st century. It’s possible that he has unreasonably high standards for catchers. It’s possible that he thinks that “anyone” can learn certain things at catcher. It’s also possible he some insight into something that Bailey isn’t doing.
I think that Billy Beane is a bit of an outlier–teams have transitioned away from players who have even been as successful as Beane leading front offices. Most of the other ones are pitchers–Dipoto, Chris Getz, Chris Young, Craig Breslow, and sort of Brandon Gomes (but not really) are the only ones I can think of. But you need to be pretty self-critical of yourself to be in a front office, and nothing prompts self-criticism like failure. And it’s probably better that you failed dramatically in something other than being a front office executive.
CHris Getz was a second baseman.
Right, that’s less than half.
Although I thought he played third base?
380 starts at 2B, three at SS, one at 3B.
I tried to find you some justification for calling him a pitcher, but I can’t find that he was ever used in a mop-up role in MLB or the minors, but I might have missed something.
“Most of the other ones are pitchers”
Update: I have no idea who I am confusing him with. Chris Johnson is the most prominent third base Chris who overlapped with Getz’s career, and I don’t think I’d confuse him with Getz.
But hit like a pitcher.
Sam Fuld decided to get off that path, but he had a better career than Beane.
MLB teams have a lot of recency bias. I can’t endorse the Giants trading Patrick Bailey because it seems like he’ll probably return back to his 70-ish wRC+ at some point soon. And then that’s a valuable player.
But I would guess that there are another 20 teams that would be looking to move on from Patrick Bailey right now and would jump at this deal. And if they couldn’t find a deal to their liking they would option him to the minors. I think that if you’ve decided you’re going to trade him that this is an outstanding return. The guy is hitting .141 / .207 / .176, and Wilkinson and the draft pick both have value.
There are a few other buy-low types out there that I could see teams giving up on too early. Bo Bichette, Colton Cowser, Jarren Duran, Joey Ortiz, Matt McLain, and Caleb Durbin all stand out as players that a team might be thinking about moving on from. I would probably advise against trading them, unless the Mets have just given up for the year and are fine with buying down most of his contract. But if any of the teams they play for decide to move on from them, I imagine several would be thrilled to get this sort of return.
Agreed on both accounts. I do think calling this a “big swing” was a little weird. I doubt Posey sees it that way.
What team is trading for Bichette, and what are the Mets getting in return?
I don’t know that they would. You would need a team that isn’t too susceptible to hindsight bias. Teams with a former Rays guy leading things are the most likely, but several of them have no place to play guys.
Let’s say that Patrick Bailey’s earnings on his rookie scale / arbitration years are expected to be $16M. I have no idea if that is accurate or not. You can adjust that up or down based on what you think Bailey will earn. But let’s say the Mets buy down the entirety of Bichette’s contract to whatever Bailey will make. That would be something like down to $4M this year and $6M for the next two in my example. And let’s also assume Bichette hates playing in New York and would waive his no-trade.
I would say that at that level the Royals, Orioles, Phillies, Rangers, and Reds would be willing to consider trading a package like the one Patrick Bailey returned. The two things all these teams have in common is that they are all-in on winning now and they have a huge hole at second or third base.
And if I were in their shoes and feeling the heat I absolutely would make that deal. Whether they actually would, I don’t know.
I can’t imagine Stearns wanting to eat anything like that amount of money to move on from Bichette.
Bichette this year has .319 xwOBA and .254 actual wOBA. Massive massive rebound candidate just from his results matching up to his xwOBA going forward.
Bichette has a career xwOBA of .341 (which his actual wOBA happens to match exactly).
So the Mets’ front office is going to eat $100+ million on a contract because, over 40 games, Bichette’s xwOBA dropped ~20 points from his career average and he got extremely unlucky batted ball results?
I don’t have a clue what the Mets are thinking. They have done stuff like that in the past. I also wouldn’t have given that deal to Bichette in the first place, so I’m not the right person to ask about it.
There apparently is a rumor going around that Bo Bichette was thinking of opting out of his deal because he hates it there so much. I saw one article saying that it was the Mets’ worst nightmare, and another saying that it was great news and it couldn’t come soon enough.
LOL. Leaving huge amounts of money on the table because people just can’t fucking stand to play for your team is the new market inefficiency!
I think sometimes people don’t realize that the grass isn’t always greener. He was a homegrown guy in Toronto and the fans are very patient with their bigger names anyway. The Mets are a very different world than that. He hasn’t built those relationships with the fans nor are the fans especially patient. And his contract is huge, that raises expectations.
I would honestly guess that he informs the Mets he’s willing to approve a trade to any team that doesn’t play its home games in a minor league stadium. And that he wouldn’t opt out just because he doesn’t like it there.
This is very much my read on the situation as well. It seems like it’s a common surprise for guys who’ve spent their major league years in one place to learn just how different the atmosphere and experience can be playing for another team after signing their first free-agent deal. And getting booed by the home fans every day in Queens (or one of the other equally intense Northeastern media environments) because you’re getting overpaid and you stink is about the absolute worst-case scenario possible for that. I wouldn’t blame any player for wanting to get out of town after a month or two of this experience — but I would be surprised if that extended past a trade request and into opting out of serious money.
I also wouldn’t have signed Bichette to the deal that the Mets did.
Are you referring to the Verlander and Scherzer trades with “stuff like that in the past”?
Yes, those similarly included big salary paydowns, but I’d say that they had some meaningful differences from this idea of trading Bichette.
Mets ate ~60% of Scherzer’s remaining contract ($35.5 out of $57) and a bit under 60% of Verlander’s ($52.5 of $93). (Some of Verlander’s total salary and $ from Mets were contingent on whether he’d hit the IP target on a vesting player option for 2025. In other words, whether the Mets would be offsetting 1.5 years or 2.5 years of his salary.)
Yes, the Mets sent out nearly $90 million, but they also got ~$60 million of salary relief.
They also used the $ to buy their way into a really good prospect return. In those two trades, the Mets collectively got back two 50 FV prospects and a 45 FV (going by how their rankings were described in Fangraphs articles at the time of those trades).
The Bichette trade idea is to eat $100+ million to save $16 million and get back a worse prospect return.
Rumor from where? Wfan? Bluesky? Twitter?
One of those “insiders” for a major news outlet where it’s not clear whether they are speculating or actually have a source, because it’s 50 / 50. (Looked it up again, it is Bob Nightengale)
Ahh Nightengale, who has a 20% hit rate of that.
If the Mets got rid of Bichette they’d have my undying love. Wait they already have that and I can’t see anyone trading for him. Who saw Bichette becoming a glove first player?
Someone who thinks they can fix his swing and has a an opening somewhere in the middle/left side of the diamond. Not many contenders or even the wannabes have that need, however.
I wonder what a Bichette deal would even look like? Was a horrible contract from the jump. A guy with one tool (hit) who had a good walk year.
He’s had several other seasons that are that good.
And that one tool is *literally* the single most important thing for position players.
Conversely, on recency bias I think you can say the same thing for Cleveland and Naylor. Similar to Bailey, Naylor is a prime bounce back candidate at the plate, and both these guys are really only valuable if they are catching (as is Hedges) as the bats certainly don’t play elsewhere. I just don’t know if upgrading from a Naylor/Hedges battery to Bailey/Hedges + eventually Bailey/Naylor is worth what they gave up.
I keep going back on forth on whether this was a good deal for Cleveland, the Pirates, both, or neither. I think I have ruled out “neither.”
There are only two things I’m sure about. One is that Cleveland thinks they got a steal because they don’t care about offense at catcher. And the other is that there’s very little chance any other team would be willing to give up this much for a guy hitting this badly.
I agree not a lot of other teams would have made this trade. You basically need a team that: has a present and near-future need at catcher (or a bat-first catcher who may be better off on DH/1B duty), is willing to trade future assets to try to win now, and and who believes in Bailey’s defensive ability.
I basically came up with this trade making sense for the Reds, the Pirates, the Cardinals, the Rays, and the Nats if they don’t believe in Harry Ford. The A’s theoretically make sense but there is nowhere for Langeliers to play right now other than C with the way their roster is. The Royals also theoretically make sense, but they’d never do it as long as Sal Perez is around.
I don’t think any of the above teams would be quite as willing as Cleveland to part with this many assets for Bailey.
KC has Carter Jensen as a rookie who looks very promising (& was also a top prospect).
No way they’ve blocking him.
Every team splits reps at catcher because it is such a physically demanding position. Since Jensen is more bat than glove, much like Samuel Basallo, it would be reasonable to pair him with a glove first catcher.
I know that & having a glove 1st platoon may be worthwhile….However:
KC still has Perez around & he is going to soak up some C/1B/DH AB’s, whether he deserves it or not due to his status as a franchise icon.
KC only had SEVEN 45 or higher prospects in their system. Are they in a position to send a 45 & a Competitive Balance pick for a guy that may just be a backup/shortside platoon?
Lastly- Of those Seven 45’s- 3 are catchers. Blake Mitchell is likely going to be ready next year, Ramon Ramirez is coming up behind him & he may end up being the GUY at catcher.
With all that in mind, just seems like adding Bailey to the Jensen/Perez combo clogs things up this year & then they have other young guys coming next year.
Jensen I would lump in the “maybe better as a 1B/DH who is an occasional catcher” group, but I agree they probably want to give him a shot at catching full-time first to see if the defense can be workable.
Really? I don’t agree with that. Jensen looks like a classic primary catcher who gets about 450 PAs a year.
I’m probably down on his defense relative to consensus. He just hasn’t looked the part to me when I’ve seen him, he doesn’t look like a good receiver or blocker, particularly on anything in the lower part of the zone. The arm has looked good though. I think long-term he might be a guy who benefits from a timeshare with a glove-first guy while scooping up plenty of DH/1B playing time.
But he probably hasn’t been helped by the sparing catching looks he’s received this year. Even with my down arrow on his defense, he still strikes me as a guy who could get 450 PA as your primary catcher and be pretty good for you a la Ryan Jeffers.
I’m down on the defense but Jensen doesn’t seem like an absolute butcher back there or anything, just as a guy who might catch less in the optimal roster construction.
The Reds are the only team in that group that would be motivated to do that. The Cardinals are overflowing with catchers, the Rays pride themselves on hacking together a catching tandem (which they are succesfully doing this year), and the Pirates seem happy with Joey Bart for now.
Maybe the Astros, although it would seem unlikely that they would be looking for a catcher with the state of their rotation. And there are other teams that might be desperate enough to replace their secondary catcher with him like the Phillies with Rafael Marchan.
The market for guys who are hitting this badly is pretty weak.
I considered both the Astros and the Angels because both are in dire need of catching help, but neither of them really are in position to buy by sacrificing future assets.
Rangers could also be a sleeper in that division that I didn’t mention, they just signed Jansen but the Jansen/Higashioka tandem is aging and both have been pretty bad, they have to be considering long-term plans there.
You are also probably right that the Cardinals are probably a no, my thinking was Bailey lets you roll with Herrera/Bailey and makes it so you don’t have to carry Pages/Pozo, but with the guys they have in AAA, the trade doesn’t make sense. I had forgotten that they had multiple C prospects that close to the majors.
The Pirates… you are probably right in that they will roll with Bart/Davis. I don’t think they should, but they probably will. It’s a shame because Bailey is actually a great fit there in my opinion, that lineup could stand to sacrifice a little hitting for defense.
Oh wow I accidentally typed the Pirates instead of Giants. I need more sleep than this.
Feels like whether it’s a good deal for Cleveland is a simple referendum on what Bailey is as a hitter going forward.
If he’s the hitter his xwOBA would suggest, then I love this for Cleveland. If he’s significantly worse than that, then they essentially lit the assets on fire.
Yeah I am pretty sure this will be answered definitively a couple years from now but I don’t usually think it’s fair to make predictions of things that happened in the past. Unless, IDK, I am on an archaeological dig or something?
(Narrator: sad has never been on an archaeological dig)
I worked for a year as an archaeologist. I ended up with more bug bites and poison ivy rashes than artifacts discovered.
Probably more bug bites in one afternoon!
He has a 52 wRC+ since the 2024 All-Star Break. He’s been really bad for much longer than he was promising.
Colton Cowser is someone the Orioles didn’t give up on soon enough. He’s a fundamentally bad hitter, which is what I told Paul Sporer in March when he picked Cowser to hit 35 home runs and steal 25 bases in his bold predictions piece.
Since the start of the 2023 season, only Giancarlo Stanton, Oneil Cruz, and James Wood have a higher called + swinging strike percentage than Cowser’s abysmal 32.3%. Colton can’t hit off-speed at all. He’s fifth worst in the majors since 2023 against changeups, and as a result, teams have thrown him a higher percentage of changeups this season than any batter except J.J. Bleday.
Cowser can’t be fixed. Even if you could make some swing adjustments to improve his contact rate, his strike zone awareness is poor and his pitch recognition is horrible. He’s a lost cause.
Same with the Mets and Baty and Vientos when it comes to holding onto them too long.
After years of being here, I’ve concluded that most of the fantasy takes are really, really bad. The decisions and commentary there seems to be of much lesser quality and not backed by anything rigorous.
I don’t really get the Matt McLain love. He sells out contact for power, but doesn’t really have enough raw power to make that work. His rookie year offense was BABIP inflated. He’s fast and a good defender at second who can probably play short for some teams, but even granting injury recovery leeway, I don’t see him as more than a 1-2 WAR player most years. If other teams think he’s still a 3+ WAR player that they’re buying low on, the Reds should definitely sell.
I think he can probably still play shortstop, and might even still be plus there. And that he’s gotten a bit unlucky with his BABIP. A 90 wRC+ with average shortstop defense seems to be a reasonable expectation, and if he’s at 100 or with plus shortstop defense he’s a 3 win player. I would take that bet.
Forget Patrick Bailey. How long can this go on with Ke’Bryan Hayes?
Worst thing is (SSS and all that, but still), Hayes is currently running a negative fielding value in FG’s system.
Brutal. When a guy who is a 70-80 wRC+ hitter is running a BABIP of .150, it gets ugly real damn fast.
Not just that, but he’s also “running” a negative BsR this year.
I’m not saying the Reds would be a playoff team this year, but they are still in the thick of it. Clearly they are hung up on the sunk cost and hoping for the best here.
He’s very very good at 3B. Who would you recommend play 3B? Actually, I saw Stewart there the other day
Literally almost any middle IF from AAA or above. He’s at -0.1 WAR for the season and he’s making 8 million.
Arroyo, baby!
One of the things that amazes me is that the Reds have poured enormous resources into third basemen over the years and they don’t have anyone to play there. They are paying $35M this year to Hayes, Suarez, and Candelario and they’re all below replacement this year (with the last one being DFA’d and putting up that negative WAR for the Angels).
They’ve also drafted the following players in the first or second round:
-Sal Stewart (who has mostly been playing at first)
-Cam Collier (splitting time between first and third in AA)
-Rece Hinds (a RF now, hitting badly)
-Jonathan India (traded to the Royals for Singer, now hurt and bad)
And of course in addition to that they have signed / drafted / traded for a bunch of guys who didn’t wind up playing third base for them (Moustakas, Senzel, Noelvi Marte, Steer, etc).
I guess I would probably go with Suarez (once he is healthy) or Stewart at third base and hope for the best. But how can a team be so focused on a single corner spot and fail this many times?
FG appears to be wrong. BBref BIS solutions info has him at a pace for +26. He has only 2 errors, and has started 9 double plays
2,88 RF/9, league average 2.44 RF/9
,
He HAS to be great defensively, or that .422 OPS makes no sense!
July 22nd.
I can’t make sense of it (and would like to see an article). He’s finally hitting the ball in the air and even squaring it up! Is it just a run of the worst luck?
Looking at his spray chart, one thing is that Hayes has been the anti-Paredes; absolutely no air contact down the left-field line or even close to it.
All the center/oppo flyballs might be worse than his previous ground balls. Center/oppo FB only work if you have 70+ raw power which Hayes does not possess.
I think the elephant in the room here is what robo-umps are going to do to the value of pitch framing. Take away 20 runs of framing, and Bailey is struggling to keep a full-time job, even at a 70-75 wRC+.
That might not happen for a little bit, but I think if robo-umps become any more prominent than this it will happen because teams will stop moving guys who can’t frame away from catcher. Someone like Dominic Keegan or Matthew Wood is real iffy to have a sustained career in the major leagues as a first baseman, but if they don’t have to worry about framing they could potentially stick as a primary catcher.
I think the challenge system is far more likely to narrow the bands of framing as hitters learn their zones, rather than to eliminate it.
So you’d be turning him into a +10-15 run framer, which is definitely playable.
Right, but if they go full robo ump, framing becomes worthless.
I don’t see that happening during Bailey’s team control, if it ever does.
I rate the current system as a perfect sweet spot, personally.
Robo-umps turn Shea Langeliers into a f’n kaiju.
I think there is a lot to unpack about this trade.
Bailey’s defensive brilliance but poor historical hitting and absolutely dire offense to start this year make him a polarizing player. It also remains to be seen how and to what extent ABS challenges will affect the value of pitch framing.
I did not know about the comments Posey had publicly made about Bailey, or that there was potentially conflict about Vitello calling pitches. The Giants are pretty clearly floundering, and while this move doesn’t bring any major league ready help, it does signify a shakeup and that the team believes in Susac and Rodriguez, or at least that they are prioritizing offense.
The value that SF got back indicates that Cleveland at least doesn’t believe Bailey is completely broken at the plate and can at least get back to what he’s been the last couple of years, which seems fairly likely. Cleveland now also has 3 all-glove, no-bat catchers, the opposite of what SF is now prioritizing.
All in all, I think I actually like this move for the Giants, but probably not for the reasons they made it. Basically I think the team stinks this year, and they should think about reloading for next year. I like Rodriguez and Susac well enough, and they’re cheap and under team control for many years, so extracting what value you can for Bailey this year makes sense. Wilkinson is an offseason 40-man add and maybe helps the big league team next year, and the 29th overall pick is a nice asset.
For Cleveland, I’m less sure what to think about it. Bailey is probably better than Naylor overall, but I think they may have been better off just hoping Naylor would rebound at the plate, similar to how they are banking that Bailey will.
Who are the 3 all defense no bat catchers Cleveland has? They have Hedges (clearly a great bat considering his current 120 wRC+), Bailey, and Fry (148 wRC+)
The Guardians are letting their top catching prospect (Cooper Ingle) develop his defense for another year in AAA and hope his bat translates to the big league level next year. Hedges will likely not be back next year and Bailey will fit nicely into his backup role.
He can’t really rebound. He’s a .199 hitter over 1191 PA’s
Giants just promoted Drew Cavanaugh to AAA, his rise probably factors into trading Bailey as well.
Just realized that ZiPS projects Bailey and Hedges pretty similarly other than playing time. Bailey is projected a 72 wRC+ and 20.0 Def rest of season. Hedges is projected 72 wRC+ and 9.7 Def (20.7 after scaling to Bailey’s projected PA) rest of season.
Since the 2024 All-Star Break, Patrick Bailey has a 52 wRC+, the worst in baseball (min. 700 plate appearances) and just behind Ke’Bryan Hayes, who had so little value despite otherworldly defense that he was salary dumped to a division rival a year ago despite making $8 million a year.
Much like the Pirates were last July, the Giants are in desperate need of offense and can’t really afford to write a black hole into the lineup every day, no matter how good his defense is. Especially when Rodriguez looks like he can play back there, and he projects to be about 30 points of wRC+ better.
For some reason, he’s tended to hit a lot worse in the 2nd half of the season (fatigue?). He has a career .669 OPS in the first half, .535 in the second half. So splitting things at the 2024 All-Star break probably makes him look worse than he really is. Granted, he’s a bad hitter, but probably better than a 52 wRC+.
Maybe..but, he was better in the 2nd half in 2025, .647 in the 2nd half vs .565 in the first.
Most of the difference was in his rookie year of 2023 (.817 in 1st half, .514 in 2nd), which leads me to thinking the league figured something out after about 150 PA’s & he’s never been able to adjust back. He also had .375 BABIP in the 1st half of 2023, so there is also that to consider. Could be that 1st half of 2023 was just flukey.
Too bad- I saw him hit a game winner HR at Citi to beat the Mets. Looked like a future star.
I’m not saying I agree with punting on offense entirely at catcher, or that the Reds should have traded for Hayes (they shouldn’t). But Patrick Bailey makes a lot less than Hayes does at $7.5M a year for the next four years (!!!) and is likely even more defensively valuable. Bailey probably won’t make more than $7.5M until his last round through arbitration, and at that point they can just non-tender him if they want (or earlier).
Hayes got traded straight up for Stafura, an FV40 prospect, which is typically valued at $1-$2M. This would suggest that the surplus value for one year is a minimum of at least one FV45 prospect and one FV40 prospect. That’s not too far off from this, which is probably about two FV45 prospects in value.
Of course Bailey is a lot more valuable than Hayes, which is why Bailey got a FV45 and a draft pick in return, whereas Hayes just got a FV40 and some salary relief (they also got a minor leaguer from CHC from trading Trevor Rogers, though he isn’t on The Board).
Right, but part of that is that Bailey has no salary to dump.
As a Reds fan, it’s really annoying that the Reds were too lazy, stupid, and cheap to trade Trevor Rogers to a contender for a prospect themselves.
I’m not sure Rodriguez is ready to play back there…he’s not holding anyone on base right now, Fodgers really exploited him last night.
Guy who’s racked up 10.2 WAR pre arb for a fat long relief prospect and a basically worthless pick
Savvy
Yep, Posey has consistently shown an ignorance to analytics. He cited Willy Adames’ 2024 RBI count (112) as a reason for signing him hoping to bolster the offense. Adames has 8 RBI this year
Willy Adames looks a bit like he did in Tampa Bay when he couldn’t see the ball. Except now it’s everywhere.
In addition to my list of guys I would buy low on, also have a list of guys who are underperforming expectations and who I would definitely not want to trade for. Even if the entire rest of their contract got bought down to $16M. In order, I would say they are Adames (least bad), Ryan McMahon, Trevor Story, and Ke’Bryan Hayes (most bad). Each of these guys looks like they’re in serious trouble, and I would need less risk exposure to them to take a chance on them bouncing back.
(Also, Cedric Mullins, who I would DFA no matter what. The Rays cannot possibly give him another 300 or 400 PAs, can they?)
FWIW, over his first eight games, McMahon struck out too much and didn’t hit a single line drive. He finally hit a line drive in game nine, and since then he’s been fine.
I’m not defending Busters use of analytics, but the return from last trade deadline is looking pretty good.
Yeah…no one calling the 29th overall pick “basically worthless” should be knocking an exec’s “savvy,” haha.
It’s worth 5 M according to baseball trade values
So yes, nothing.
Know less ball, though. “Hahah”
“Haha”
“Hah”
Ohemgee, baseball trade values said so????
I stand corrected!!!
You, sir, do not seem at all overly credulous or deeply unpleasant!
Anywho, Austin Hedges go $4m coming off 1.6 WAR in 180 PA…so the Giants are already ahead before accounting for Tugboat!
Average career WAR in that range is around 3. So yes, it isn’t worth anything
He keeps digging!
A career WAR of 3 is in the expected outcome range of a 45/50 FV prospect, haha – Craig put the value of the 29th overall pick at $10.8m in 2018, roughly equivalent to the 125th overall prospect.
Just a masterful demonstration of the Dunning Kruger effect.
Bravo, sir.
I don’t think it’s fair to comp Hedges based on his best recent season to Bailey. Since Bailey’s debut Hedges has put up 3.1 fWAR. Bailey put up 3.2 just last year. A 70 wRC+ is also much more palatable than a 40 for a defensive-first catcher
That 3.1 WAR has come in just 595 PA…and isn’t his premise that there is no minimum offensive threshold?
The Hedges breakout is being undersold in this article. It dates back to last September. Since that time, he’s hit .284/.352/.444 for a 124 wRC+ in 92 PAs.
So yeah, it’s a small sample size. But I don’t think it can be completely ignored given that it spans across two seasons. And it’s far, far better than what he’s done since at least 2018. My understanding is that he did change his approach around that time. So while he may drop back a bit, the improvement may be real.
Anyway, I know this is tangential to the aritcle. But I also think it’s worth pointing out.
92 PA can safely be ignored in literally any context
Posey calls him “Patty?” Baseball can be so dumb.
Every sport has bad nicknames in the last few decades with a few outliers here and there.
All baseball nicknames than are a person’s name plus the sound “ee” are bad. That’s like 80% of them.
Hearing Ned Yost refer to Alex Gordon as “Gordee” hurt my feelings for years
Here are some of the top position players by fWAR…if a “contemporary” old school manager gave them nicknames
Ruthie
Bondsy
Hanky
Cobby
Trissy
Alexee
I feel similarly about first letter of the first name + Rod for players named Rodriguez. We’ve got to do better. After A-Rod in the alpha role, the only other appropriate options are to go down through Beta-Rod and on to Zeta-Rod. Imagine if Pudge had unimaginatively been called I-Rod, what a loss that would have been
Buster Posey hates catchers.
Like Magic Johnson coaching the Lakers.
“Just be better at basketball!”
Or Ted Williams managing and grabbing a bat and putting on a laser show during batting practice and not understanding why his players can’t hit like that.
This trade is an interesting comp for the Padres trade for Fermin last year. Fermin has been about half as valuable as Bailey since 2023, with a slightly better bat not fully compensating for the difference in framing. Their arb status is identical as well. It seems like the Guardians paid less for him once you take into account that the Padres traded 2 SPs off the ML roster.
So either the Guardians fleeced Posey (very possible), Preller overpaid for Fermin (also very possible) or maybe the value of framing has decreased in post ABS adoption.
I definitely think we should expect hitters and catchers to get better at challenging, as they get more reps.
That should, in turn, lower the ceiling and raise the floor of framing numbers, much like the mainstreaming of framing research stopped José Molina from racking up 45 framing runs in 1000 innings…because teams stopped letting Ryan Doumit lose 65 framing runs in the same time frame.
I think the Fermin trade was and still is widely viewed as an overpay by Preller in a desperate move to fix the catching situation.
I think it’s pretty obvious Posey did not value Bailey that highly, but he still got decent value for a player the Giants maybe don’t need for the next 3.5 years, so it might work out for the team. Bailey is such an odd player that I don’t know how much more SF could realistically get for him.
I wonder how this affects Cooper Ingle. Cooper’s been the hottest bat in AAA this year and is not bad behind the plate. Are they planning on Bailey being the backup if Cooper’s bat stays hot, or are they planning on moving Cooper to another position?
my theory: The Giants are extremely anti-analytics due purely to hubris. It’s likely that no one in that org is even a member on this site. If they had been reading your stuff these past decades, they wouldn’t be making these stupid decisions. They think they are geniuses for getting lucky three times in their magical run over a decade ago. The reality is that none of those teams were dominant, and if we ran a million simulations, the most likely result of those teams would be ZERO world championships. Because that’s baseball. But it did happen, we got incredibly lucky, and now we are paying the price. The price being an organization that has convinced itself it knows what it’s doing, but in fact, does not. Not in terms of a winning baseball club at least. Maybe their real estate portfolio is performing well. It’s a sad time for baseball fans in SF.
This is way too pessimistic. Brian Sabean was never going to be Andrew Friedman but he is gone and they quietly did more analytics than they let on under him anyway. Minasian was the director of professional scouting for the Brewers under Stearns before joining the Giants under Zaidi. And in a million simulations over those three seasons the Giants probably would have won it as much as any other team except the Nationals or Yankees. They were something like +235 in run differential across all three of those years, which is pretty strong.
Eh? Sabean built plenty of winners across eighteen seasons, including his three rings during the SABR era.
He just got there Dombo style, which isn’t sustainable after the guy who’s just really good at telling whether someone’s good at baseball leaves.
The actual fluke was Zaidi’s 107 wins in 2021 – otherwise, they were shooting for 85 wins and managing 79.
There’s absolutely a needle to thread between Zaidi’s pathological risk aversion and Posey’s “stats are for nerds!” approach…but if every GM were Friedman or AA, those guys wouldn’t be special.
AA is massively overrated.
I keep wondering how much the Guardians are gonna pinch-hit for their catchers after this trade. With Fry around to catch in case of injury and either Manzardo or Hoskins usually on the bench alongside a second elite defensice catcher, their roster is uniquely well suited to it. When else do you get a chance to boost your batter’s wRC+ by 30+ points in a high-leverage plate appearance without sacrificing any defense?
This is an insightful take
Bailey was number 26 on the trade value list just two years ago! Reading that whole column wnd all the comments is highly entertaining. I will refrain from picking on any specific commenters but I would encourage anyone to read it. We don’t know much about much
This was my comment on that thread that stands out to me.
The Orioles would have had a completely different last couple years if they had done that. The Tigers too.
I think it’s still a bit too soon to judge Holliday.
Fair…but we can judge the last two years of Skubal!
Theres part of me that’s rooting for the high drama of Posey becoming the first Player/POBO in the old Player/Manager style. I know he believes in the rookie catchers, but there’s also part of me that saw his 2021 season and suspects he could still outplay them if he wanted to. (Whether either of them could out-POBO him is a separate question.)
Also love this. Maybe Cleveland is bringing in Bailey as a Player/POBO!
Posey was brought into a tough spot. He inherited a middling yet competitive team with some expensive stars and some scrubs, tried to prop it up last year making the Devers trade, but it didn’t necessarily amount to anything due to the many holes elsewhere on the roster. I think now he’s been given the green light to undergo some kind of rebuilding period. There’s now rumors flying around that Ray and Webb could be next on the block. I would not be surprised if Arraez gets dealt midseason as well.
Honestly, it’s needed to happen. Sure, San Francisco is a much bigger market than Tampa, Pittsburgh, or Cleveland, so they can and will spend money whenever they feel like. They should, it’s more fun watching a team play good ball with some big names. However at a certain point they really need to focus on player development and finding that next homegrown championship core. It’s been 5 years since they got lucky and won 107 games on the backs of literally every veteran synching up their dead cat bounces. It’s been 12 years since they beat KC. Something’s gotta change.
Ray is absolutely getting traded. But it would be totally out of character for the Giants to trade Logan Webb. Webb is under team control for two more years after this one. If they’re going to win with any of the current players it’s going to be during Webb’s years of team control.
But they also haven’t done a real rebuild in decades. The team is old and they don’t really have any options aside from spending more or blowing the whole thing to pieces. Landen Roupp is over a year away from arbitration, and both Rafael Devers and Willy Adames have more team control than he does.
I got curious about this. According to Roster Resource the only players on their current 26 man roster who are under the age of 26 are Eldridge, Gilbert, Jesus Rodriguez, and Trevor McDonald. The only Top 100 prospects outside of Eldridge are Level and Gonzalez, who have ETAs of 2029 at the earliest.
Is there a world where it makes sense to sign Eldridge to an extension and then trade everyone who would return prospects? Webb, Roupp, Ray, Arraez, Schmitt, Ramos, Winn, and Miller? Presumably Chapman, Adames, and Devers won’t continue playing this badly and so the team will be respectable if not good in 2027 and 2028. You wouldn’t have to worry about needing any prospects soon, you could target guys in Low A without any problems.
To me, trading Bailey for a decentish 23 y/o pitcher in AA and the 29th pick in this year’s draft signals that they’re likely shooting for a 2028 turnaround at the earliest. Bailey’s an automatic out, sure, and that Posey was able to get this much for him is a huge W, but it might be at least 2-3 years before we see who that pick will actually be, and another 1-2 years to see if Wilkinson can even crack the majors let alone pitch above mop-up duty.
They don’t necessarily have to go full 1998 Marlins, but if they get a Godfather offer for Webb they should take that and run. His trade value is insanely high even while he’s injured and underperforming. They’ll definitely deal Ray and Arraez at the deadline. They’ll probably look to unload one of the Chapman, Adames, and Lee contracts. Devers is probably stuck as is given his contract/lack of flexibility, and that’s okay if they simply let him DH and he stays in that 125-140 wRC+ range when it’s all said and done.
The problem is that I just don’t see the Giants being contenders again in the next two years as constructed, by which point it’ll have been 7+ years since their last playoff appearance, the roster will be even older and worse, and they’ll have Webb rapidly approaching free agency. The NL West is basically the Dodgers and Padres Show. Your best hope if you’re SF/AZ/COL is to somehow squeeze into one of the two loser wild card spots which are slim pickin’s as like 8 other teams are trying to do the same and they’re all playing better right now. It’ll be prudent to take a step back, and wait out the Padres at least. Like I said, it’s a tough gig for Posey and how he navigates this process will determine whether he can add elite executive to his Hall of Fame resume.
I think you’re making a pretty good case for blowing it up. I think 2029 would be the target in that scenario. And if they traded Logan Webb they could restock with some high end talent. A lot of teams are reluctant to trade prospects close to the majors, but guys like Josh Hammond and Kendry Chourio might be more available. (Maybe not them specifically)
I don’t think Chapman, Adames, or Lee are going anywhere soon. Lee can opt out after 2027, which probably isn’t going to happen but it does add some uncertainty into things. If he goes on a hot streak in 2028 they could trade him then.
Adames and Chapman have full no trade clauses. They would have to go on a hot streak *and* they would have to waive it. I think one or the other is likely but they would have to coincide.
Neither of them are particularly valuable in trade. Whatever prospects they get by doing so will be gravy as they mostly want to get out from the salary before the players get too old and suck too bad. Adames and Chapman will definitely want to go to contenders, or at least move to cities they kind of like. Might be stuck with them for a while though. Lee could be the easiest to move, even if he opts out after next year that’s still prpbably worth giving back something shiny. At least 1.5 years of decent corner OF defense to go with good contact rates is useful to some teams having to patch together RF/LF platoons and/or have super terrible defense.
I’m not sure how they’ll go about it, but the Giants really need to piss or get off the pot. They backed themselves into the corner with these contracts before they could fully flesh out the team around them. They’re wasting Webb’s best years trying to chase down 84-78.
I think they would have to eat so much money on the deal for all three they might as well keep them unless they dramatically outperform what they’re doing now.
If they can do even what they did in 2025 they’re all tradable and could even get a decent prospect back if they’re willing to eat half the deal, but I think the ship has sailed on them for this deadline unless they go on an absolute tear tomorrow. And it’s complicated by the opt-out / no trade clauses.
They could ask around and take the temperature for them with other front offices, but my guess is that other teams will be lukewarm at best on them. They’re probably better off scouting the complex / A-ball / High-A affiliates of teams that express interest in Arraez, Ray, Webb, and various relievers.
I think this is the ration move. The question is whether or not Posey does.
Wonder how much of this has to do with challenging of strikes and a potential future auto strike zone?
I didn’t love the Vitello hire, but I don’t hate ringing the register on Bailey, and think it’s tough to put this all on Posey when our farm system has been completely barren for 10+ years (I believe Bailey, Ramos, Webb, and Doval have been the most productive alumni of this farm system over that time period). In contrast, the World Series teams last decade had multiple all stars across the infield (Belt, Panik, Crawford, Panda), a stacked pitching staff (Lincecum, Bumgarner, Cain), and the greatest catcher of the 21st century, all entirely homegrown and supplemented with impact vets like Pence and Renteria.
I won’t pretend to know what the issues are but I recall an article written on this site last year showing the Giants had extracted almost no value from first round picks in recent years, and our international pipeline has not panned out. I would not be surprised to learn that the Giants system has produced the least value of any system in the past 10 years. Previous administrations also whiffed on Ohtani, Judge, Soto and every other major FA and instead made major commitments to Lee and Adames, neither of whom have panned out as hoped – granted Chapman has been a bright spot since signing.
With that context, it’s hardly surprising we have an expensive and bad roster. I am hoping the priority is fixing the farm system because anything else is a band aid over organizational rot.
I mean they have made good picks, they just have had dogshit player development for so long. I think that’s why Vitello was hired. They want to get younger, prioritize player development at every level. What better way to do that than to make a college coach the field manager?
The age old question: how do you know it was good drafting and bad player development?
The only scientific method is to judge prospects that are trade into or out of the org before and after the trade.
“The gaps between his actual and expected numbers are second only to Hayes’ in all three categories. At least some of that owes to the fact that Bailey’s overall groundball rate has spiked from 38.5% to 46.7%”
I’m confused by the latter point in the discussion of Bailey’s wOBA vs. xwOBA gap this season.
xwOBA includes both EV and launch angle, so wOBA should already take into account groundball rate. Bailey, as a slow-footed catcher, is likely to trail his xwOBA on ground balls by a bit because of lack of infield hits. But I’d think that impact is small relative to his 90 point wOBA-xwOBA gap this season.
Am I misunderstanding what Jay is trying to say here, or otherwise missing something?
So they want catchers to really lead the pitching staff, and also don’t want them to call the pitches. This is some mighty fine boss-speak.
It’s boss-speak for “We think Bailey’s pitch-calling sucks,” haha.
Well, which is it, young fella? You want I should freeze or get down on the ground? (Raising Arizona)
its from a college coach control freak……He doesnt really have clue about how to act, answer media questions…i haven’t seen anything of this magnitude ever in MLB. He’s not even close to being in the presence of Major League roster and managing the game and lineups in this league.
This is absolutely the kind of move that the Giants need to be making. Bailey is better than he has shown so far, but there is also reason to believe that the robo umps will eat significantly into his framing value. And so, getting a first round pick and a fairly young, decent pitching prospect to focus on 2027 and beyond is a big coup for a GM that has otherwise been struggling mightily. The team is going nowhere this year.
Is it me, or are there a lot of similarities between Posey and Breslow as execs? Former players who inflated payroll made big trades (some with one another!) to change the nature of their clubs, then struggled in the year they were supposed to show results leading them to cut popular team leaders in a (desperate?) attempt to force their vision onto reality?
As a huge MLB teams it’s just sad to me. Giants are an incredible storied franchise and I hate to see it as a dumpster fire the last 10 yrs and getting significantly worse this yr. Now they’re trying to call pitches from the dugout. Could you imagine the Yankees doing that. Marlins and Rockies do that lol…..
The stiff inherited a far better situation – 16 prospects with at least 45 FV and 5 on the Top 100 compared to 5 and 2, respectively.
It is going to be interesting the impact of the ABS challenges on elite framers, like Bailey.
I would expect the top framers to lose some value – but the losses might be limited, depending on the catcher. If you excel at getting strikes called as strikes – then you might benefit by the opposition incorrectly challenging more. I also wonder if the other catcher might be less likely to challenge, as they might think they need to keep challenges in hand to counter the elite framer turning balls into strikes.
It’s going to make the good framers even more valuable
Feel terrible for Giants fans. Everything I’m hearing is this is a disaster on the inside. Players don’t want to be there etc. Guess that isn’t really a secret as it’s been pretty public so far. Now the guy wants to call pitches from the dug out lmao
Is Posey the worst GM in baseball right now taking resources into account?
People in Queens beg to differ.
Stearns has assembled what’s looking like an all-time disaster of a roster, but it’s all off the books in two years anyway, and the Mets have Nolan McLean, who is about as valuable as all of the Giants’ top prospects combined.
The Giants roster is a lot like the Mets’, but instead of contracts being 2 years/$40 million they’re 6 years/$150 million. Every team in a big enough market is going to have albatross contracts, but the Giants have as many as four right now, without any real homegrown talent to supplement it.
This could get really, really ugly in a year or two without a hard reset.
I like what Stearns is doing behind the curtain of that craptastic roster that he (re: Cohen) slapped together. Building up the system, developing guys like McLean, and so on. That’s his best skill, which he had honed in Milwaukee to great success. The big moves aren’t panning out, but they all seemed like these weird pivot/panic deals anyway, spending money just to spend money on names because Cohen wants all the big shiny toys that are almost like the ones the Dodgers have, and we’ll all be damned if he doesn’t get what he wants.
I’m not sure what Posey is going to be like as a GM, it’s his first baseball gig since he retired from playing. Usually many former players-turned-GMs either get into coaching and/or scouting for a while as they work their way up the ladder. Right now he’s pulling levers and pushing buttons trying to figure out what each thing does on the fly. His first year he signed a bunch of dudes and traded for Devers. That didn’t work out. Now he’s attempting some rebuilding moves. The Bailey trade was pretty good. Regardless of whatever Wilkinson does, the extra 1st rounder is huge, and for all we know Bailey’s framing skills are totally obsolete now due to ABS. Hopefully he doesn’t screw up the draft.
Not a big Mets fan (they’re like my 16th favorite team of the 30) so for whatever they do I don’t care *too much* about it. They’ll be fine. However the Giants are my second team behind Seattle and honestly as a fan I’m pretty annoyed they just let him start fucking with a bunch of shit right away.
I agree with most of what you’re saying here, but as someone who spends an unhealthy amount of time following the Mets I absolutely do not buy the theory that all of Stearns’s roster-building mistakes this year are actually Steve Cohen’s fault behind the scenes. Stearns has strategic control, he just has an impatient rich guy to answer to. “Spending money just to spend money” is a totally reasonable description, but the guy who decided what to spend the money on is the baseball guy, not the hedge-fund guy. Steve Cohen isn’t George Steinbrenner.
Maybe not *all* of them, but I do believe that Cohen gets in the way of a lot, and it’s usually during those big splashes.
You have a 16th favorite team?
1. Mariners
2. Giants
3-16. NL
17-30. AL
If you gave me enough time I could give you a 1-30 list.
Do we pin the last 5 years of the Angels on Minasian or Moreno? They are real bad.
Oof, good question. When in doubt, I blame Moreno.
If we’re “taking resources into account,” Breslow inherited five Top 100 guys and eleven 45/45+ FVs.
And 2024 Cy Young winner Chris Sale.
I’ve pondered for a while, and now have sufficient evidence to endorse the viewpoint that Posey is to this generation of baseball execs what Isiah Thomas was to the early 2000s New York Knicks. I don’t see a coherent vision here, just a guy shooting from the hip.
Posey traded a guy who is slugging .176 for a late 1 and a decent, lefty starting prospect. The guy is doing his best.
Guardians are way more advanced and ahead of the Giants. One team knows what theyre doing with incredible track record with a fraction of budge of the Giants …..and 1 team is likely the worst ran franchise currently in MLB.
I honestly dont see how Viletto makes it to the end of the year. They have to make move and go hire Cora or Rob Thomson to bring credibility to that dugout and proffesionalism.
He’s a perfect fit for Cleveland. He’s the type of catcher they have prioritized for years .
And been to Playoffs every yr too