2025 Trade Value: Nos. 11-20

Denis Poroy-Imagn Images

As is tradition at FanGraphs, we’re using the lead-up to the trade deadline to take stock of the top 50 players in baseball by trade value. For a more detailed introduction to this year’s exercise, as well as a look at the players who fell just short of the top 50, be sure to read the Introduction and Honorable Mentions piece, which can be found in the widget above.

For those of you who have been reading the Trade Value Series the last few seasons, the format should look familiar. For every player, you’ll see a table with the player’s projected five-year WAR from 2026-2030, courtesy of Dan Szymborski’s ZiPS projections. The table will also include the player’s guaranteed money, if any, the year through which their team has contractual control of them, last year’s rank (if applicable), and then projections, contract status, and age for each individual season through 2030 (assuming the player is under contract or team control for those seasons). Last year’s rank includes a link to the relevant 2024 post. Thanks are due to Sean Dolinar for his technical wizardry. At the bottom of the page, there is a grid showing all of the players who have been ranked up to this point.

A note on the rankings: As we ascend towards the top of the list, the tiers matter more and more. There are clear gaps in value. Don’t get too caught up on what number a player is, because who they’re grouped with is a more important indicator. Today, the rankings pivot around Tarik Skubal. The players listed ahead of Skubal belong in a different tier than the players behind him; I’m a lot less picky about how you’d order them within those groups. Additionally, Skubal himself has some flex room, as I’ll explain in the blurbs. This high on the list, though, everyone is great. There are no injury rebounds, no stars having awful years. Everyone here is playing well right now, and everyone except Skubal will be around for a while too. As I mentioned in the Introduction and Honorable Mentions piece, I’ll indicate tier breaks between players where appropriate, both in their capsules and bolded in the table at the end of the piece.

With that out of the way, let’s get to the next batch of players.

#20 — Riley Greene, DET, OF
Five-Year WAR 20.1
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2028
Previous Rank #13
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 25 4.1 Arb 1
2027 26 4.2 Arb 2
2028 27 4.1 Arb 3
Arb

Greene kicks off a group of players that I’m calling “Great Players I’d Take Tarik Skubal Over.” Cristopher Sánchez from yesterday’s installment could be considered the bottom member of this tier as much as he was a part of the Controllable Aces; he straddled the two classifications and I rounded down. I’ve calibrated my thinking here on the win-now side of things. I’ll talk more about that specific decision in Skubal’s writeup, but everyone in this tier is awesome and is at least in the same stratosphere as Skubal. If you’re more interested in long-term value than short-term upside, you can slide Skubal down until you get to a spot in this group where you think he fits. I absolutely wouldn’t go any lower than this, though, and as you’ll read later on, there are good arguments for having him as high as where I slotted him in. Some team sources even thought he should have been higher.

For his part, Greene is in a relative sweet spot for production and team control, finishing up his last pre-arb year as we speak. That leaves him with three years of arbitration, and he’s heading into that salary discussion with an excellent platform: He’s posted a 135 wRC+ for two years running, and should end this season around 4 WAR for the second straight year. This season, he’s leaning into power over on-base by swinging early, but I see that as part of the never-ending cat-and-mouse game of reacting to pitcher incentives. His vicious swing is always going to come with strikeouts, but I’m with our projection systems in expecting his strikeout rates to tick back down going forward at the expense of a bit of power.

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The pitch here is that you get a guy with proven, excellent offense and solid corner outfield defense, and you get him for three prime years at low salaries. I moved him down a bit throughout this exercise, though. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with what Greene offers. It’s just that the rest of his tier-mates do it a little better. The players with a similar amount of team control remaining are better than him right now. The other young players are signed for longer. The guys with higher salaries offer more game-breaking potential than Greene. He’s awesome – 20th in baseball is some pretty excellent trade value – but I like the rest of this group more.

#19 — José Ramírez, CLE, 3B
Five-Year WAR 14.1
Guaranteed Dollars $69.0M
Team Control Through 2028
Previous Rank #17
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 33 4.5 $21.0M
2027 34 3.6 $23.0M
2028 35 2.7 $25.0M

For all the fawning I did over Ketel Marte, Ramírez is an even better version of the same consistent excellence. Look at his track record. The last time he wasn’t a three-win player was 2015, in a half-season. The last time he wasn’t a four-win player was 2020, and he put up 3.1 WAR in 58 games. The guy is a machine, posting 30-ish homers and nearly as many walks as strikeouts with great defense year after year.

Ramírez is around for three more years after this one. I would say that it’s a sweet spot number of years, the optimal number to get the tail end of his prime and avoid the downside, but that might undersell Ramírez. I understand aging curves, but on the other hand, Ramírez put up 6.4 WAR as a 28-year-old, followed by 6.0 WAR at age 29, 4.6 at age 30, and 6.5 at age 31, and he’s projected to finish with 6.5 at age 32. Oh, and you’re getting all that for an average of $23 million a year.

Someday, the music will stop. But why now? He’s putting up the same batting line he has over the last five years. He’s about as good of a defender as always. His sprint speed is faster this year than it was a decade ago. Maybe he’s found the fountain of youth. Regardless, Ramírez can be the best hitter on your championship team, he’ll be around for three more years after this one, and he won’t break the bank in doing so. If there’s one throughline of my rankings, it’s valuing demonstrated big league results, and there’s probably no better avatar for that.

I actually didn’t get much feedback on Ramírez. He’s clearly good, clearly in the back half of his career, and has one of those medium-length/medium-dollar contracts that doesn’t inspire people to bang the table for value or gag a little at the thought of paying free agent prices for good production. He’s just great, unfancily so. How could you not place him in this rough range? The closest I got to a nugget of team wisdom was when someone said “Haha, man, he’s good.” Indeed, anonymous source, indeed.

#18 — Will Smith, LAD, C
Five-Year WAR 13.8
Guaranteed Dollars $107.5M
Team Control Through 2033
Previous Rank #10
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 31 3.9 $16.0M
2027 32 3.3 $16.0M
2028 33 2.8 $12.5M
2029 34 2.2 $12.5M
2030 35 1.7 $12.5M

As I’ve mentioned repeatedly throughout this exercise, catchers are difficult to project. Smith’s career arc heading into 2025 felt easy to track: four straight years of declining offensive and defensive value, with his WAR dipping in each year. In 2025, he’s casually setting new highs in basically every offensive category en route to a resurgent season that might be one of his best. Now project out another eight (!) years of this. Good luck!

Smith’s deal is a weird one to think about. It’s a bargain-basement AAV, but it extends until his age-38 season, and he’s a catcher, so some of those years at the end are just luxury tax window dressing. It has deferrals. It already carried a huge signing bonus. In 2028, for example, the Dodgers will pay Smith only $4.5 million, with another $5 million in deferred salary earned but not paid for another decade. Even if you think Smith is going to trail off hard in the second half of his contract, as ZiPS does, it’s a bargain in terms of cost per production. And if you think he’s going to age better than that, or that a team acquiring him would care more about the rate of production and less about the number of games he plays, it’s even better.

The Dodgers seem to be making that exact tradeoff with Smith this year, spelling him more often than they have in recent years. At some point, likely after Freddie Freeman’s contract ends after the 2027 season, Smith will move down the defensive spectrum. In 2032, this deal isn’t going to feel great, though it won’t feel awful, either; it’s really just not that much money. But until then, you’re getting the offensive equivalent of a good corner outfielder playing catcher. That’s mostly not available behind the plate (except for one other guy who you’ll see tomorrow). Yes, he’s a 30-year-old catcher putting up poor defensive numbers and is signed until he’s nearly 40 – but everything else about Smith’s profile is deliriously good. The Dodgers are never going to make him available, but boy, their phones would be on fire if they did.

#17 — Garrett Crochet, BOS, SP
Five-Year WAR 20.5
Guaranteed Dollars $170.0M
Team Control Through 2030
Previous Rank HM
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 27 4.6 $24.8M
2027 28 4.4 $28.8M
2028 29 4.2 $28.8M
2029 30 3.8 $28.8M
2030 31 3.5 $28.8M

I got mixed feedback on Crochet’s place on the list, and I think that’s entirely reasonable. You could, if you wanted, see him as one of the best values on the board. Only two pitchers carry better projections for the next five years, and Crochet is signed for longer than either of them. Want to hug an ace for as long as possible? He’s your guy.

Crochet’s ascent has been notable not so much because he’s making opponents look foolish – his career run prevention numbers were already bonkers – but because he’s handling the biggest workload in baseball. The White Sox famously babied him last year in his transition to starting, and while they were probably being more cautious then was necessary with an eye towards trading him, I didn’t expect him to go out and lead the league in innings pitched. ZiPS had him down in the 130s before the season, while our more aggressive Depth Charts projections had him at 157; he’s tracking for over 200. The volume has been striking, and of course the 2.19 ERA and 2.41 FIP are amazing too.

The other side of the coin? You’re paying big kid prices to secure Crochet’s services. His deal ticks up to around $30 million a year in short order, and he even has an opt out to leave after 2030 (his contract runs through 2031 otherwise). It’s not quite Zack Wheeler money, but that’s a premium outlay for a pitcher with 53 major league starts under his belt. I feel good about Crochet’s future, but how could I not feel at least a little uncertain?

In the end, I think I’m more tolerant of this type of risk than the team sources I talked to. In aggregate, they’d probably have him down with Hunter Brown, though not everyone agreed with that. I want as many players like Crochet on my team as possible, and “paying the going rate for a star player” is fine with me when I’m getting one of the best five pitchers in baseball, not a lesser star. Two straight years of ultra-elite run prevention combined with two thirds of a year of workhorse volume is enough for me to crack open the vault and fork over the prospects to trade for Crochet and the money to pay him. Could he get hurt? Could this deal sting? Sure. But Crochet could also be the bedrock of your franchise for a half-decade to come.

#16 — Logan Webb, SFG, SP
Five-Year WAR 19.9
Guaranteed Dollars $70.0M
Team Control Through 2028
Previous Rank #16
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 29 4.8 $23.0M
2027 30 4.4 $23.0M
2028 31 4.0 $24.0M

My writeups of Webb for the Trade Value Series are starting to blur together. In the four years I’ve headed this exercise, he has ranked 25th, 16th, 16th, and now 16th again. He’s amassed between 4 and 5 WAR while throwing between 190 and 220 innings in every one of those years, though 2025 might throw a wrench in that beautiful consistency, because we’re projecting him to finish with 5.1 WAR. This year’s production looks a little different – more strikeouts, fewer grounders – but he’s still essentially an apex innings-eater, the kind of guy you expect to lead the league in innings pitched more often than not while putting up a gaudy ERA.

I think that Webb’s low-variance game prevents him from ever being the best pitcher at a given moment. But that consistency, oh that consistency! Over the past two years, he’s the sixth-best pitcher in baseball. Over the past three years, he’s the third best. He’s the third best over four years and second best over five years, trailing only Zack Wheeler. He’s done all that while never finishing as a top-five pitcher by WAR (wrap your head around that one). He just never falters, never misses a start, never has a bad season.

Would you want that guy on your team? Of course you would. Webb is one of the best pitchers in baseball every time he takes the mound, and he gives you volume that no one else in the league even approaches on a yearly basis. I don’t care a ton that he’s 28 instead of in his 30s, because pitchers seem to break more than they age, but it certainly doesn’t hurt. His contract is solid, too; he’s due salaries in the mid-$20 millions for the next three years. I’d love to have him around for longer, but three years of this kind of juice sounds good enough. ZiPS has him down as providing similar value to Crochet over that span, albeit in a very different way.

I’m rambling. This dude’s great. You might not have noticed, because his team hasn’t been for years. But man, the playoff teams that would come knocking if the Giants put Webb on the block. At this point, everyone I talked to is in lockstep on this: Webb is one of the safest bets there is, and he provides something that no one else can. How exactly you value that relative to the gaudy collection of stars and years of control on display today is up to you, but I feel comfortable slotting him in at no. 16, the same thing I do every year.

#15 — Fernando Tatis Jr., SDP, OF
Five-Year WAR 21.7
Guaranteed Dollars $292.4M
Team Control Through 2034
Previous Rank #6
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 27 4.7 $20.7M
2027 28 4.7 $25.7M
2028 29 4.4 $25.7M
2029 30 4.2 $36.7M
2030 31 3.8 $36.7M

For lack of a better way to say it, Tatis has been one of my dudes since I started helming this exercise. He combines everything that I value most: proven major league performance, long years of team control for young hitters with top prospect pedigree, and less emphasis on AAV for guys who I’m sure will be stars. He’s signed for forever! Some of the years will be pricey! But he’s also cranking out All-Star seasons with comfortable frequency, and he’ll only be 35 at the end of the deal.

As Tatis gets further removed from his catastrophic wrist injury, he’s looking like a more complete hitter, but probably one whose realistic range is a 130-150 wRC+, not 160-180. He’s always had good pitch recognition, but I don’t think that can carry him further than where he is now; he looks to me like a very good hitter who has maxed out his skills. I like his odds of putting up a better batting line than he has so far in 2025 — Tatis is underperforming his batted ball quality, and all of our projection systems expect an improvement — but I don’t think he’s going to challenge Aaron Judge anytime soon.

Tatis is an absolutely elite baserunner and defender, which is easy to overlook. He might be the best right fielder in baseball; he picked up the position in 2023, already has a Gold (and Platinum) Glove, and is competing for another this year. And he’s a menace on the basepaths, and not just when it comes to steals. He’s on his way to a six-win season this year, and plenty of that value is going to come from what he does when he’s not hitting. Even with very good offense instead of the historically great form he showed at the start of his career, he’s one of the best players in baseball.

So why is he ranked 15th instead of somewhere higher? Basically, I used to think of Tatis as having a good shot at being a top three player in baseball for a decade. Now that his top end seems to be great instead of scale-defining, the length of the deal goes from an unvarnished good to tougher to parse. He dealt with repeated shoulder subluxations in 2021, missed the entire 2022 season (that wrist injury plus a PED suspension), 20 games the next season (the tail-end of that PED suspension), and 60 games last season (a stress reaction in his femur). But he’s healthy this year and still only 26. You’re going to get a ton of production out of Tatis for years to come. I think he’s a better bet to stay healthy than, say, Crochet. But the thing he offers isn’t quite as rare as Crochet – ace pitchers are harder to find than great corner outfielders. Split the difference between those two considerations, and they both end up in the same tier of Great Players I’d Take Tarik Skubal Over. So let’s get to the man himself, shall we?

#14 — Tarik Skubal, DET, SP
Five-Year WAR 24.5
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2026
Previous Rank #24
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 29 5.6 Arb 3
Arb

I talk to the team personnel I use as crosscheckers for this list over a few-week span leading up to publication. During that time, my thinking is always changing – sometimes because of who I just talked to, sometimes because I added some new data or tweaked some variable, sometimes because I just feel differently on different days. The point is that I showed this list to my sources with Skubal all over the place, anywhere from no. 11 down into the mid-20s. I noticed that where I put Skubal didn’t have a lot to do with whether they thought he was too high or too low; it was way more about how aggressive I think they are in terms of wanting to win now, or at least how aggressive they are in projecting the league’s win-now tendencies.

Two different people I talked to said something to the effect of, “If Skubal were on the market today, he’d net a return in line with the first Juan Soto trade.” It’s a closer comparison than I first thought. There’s less team control with Skubal and less projected WAR, but he’s better relative to his peers than Soto was at the time; he’s the clear best pitcher in baseball, whereas Soto’s value partially came from being a top 10 player and partially from the fact that he was so dang young. Teams go bonkers for pitching, particularly at trade deadlines, and the best pitcher in baseball is the ultimate prize. That Soto swap returned multiple top 25 prospects; if Skubal’s value is in that ballpark, he’s too low here at 14.

I shaded down from that value meaningfully because I don’t think there’s an AJ Preller equivalent who would go that big to get Skubal (also, he’s not getting traded, obviously). But I did take my sources’ general point into account. This is a one of one skill set. Skubal is the best pitcher in baseball right now. He projects as the best pitcher in baseball the rest of the way this year. His ZiPS projection for 2026 is a win clear of every other starter. There are plenty of cost-controlled surplus value dudes you can plug in at shortstop or in left field or even at first base. There aren’t any other Tarik Skubals. Teams pay up for that in trade.

Ultimately, the way I thought about Skubal’s placement was to rank him as though I were running a big market club with fairly defined win-now tendencies. Maybe not Dombrowski-defined, but a team that wants to win World Series sooner rather than later because some of their stars are in their prime. Not that anyone this high on the list is getting traded, but if they were, that’s the kind of team that would be on the buying side. If you’d focus more on the long-term, if you care more about winning in 2028 than 2026, you can move him down incrementally, into the group of great players I’d take Tarik Skubal over. The right spot for him, in my mind, is somewhere between 10th and 21st depending on just how committed you are to hanging a banner quickly, but I feel most comfortable with him right here.

Right, a few words on Skubal himself: This dude is great. Do we really need to discuss it? He’s about to blow away his 2024 Cy Young campaign. The worst – worst! – of his advanced ERA estimators is 2.37. He gives you volume. He’s near the top of the league in strikeout rate and walks only 3.3% of opponents. No one’s questioning how good Skubal is; it’s all about what you’d trade for that excellence.

#13 — Pete Crow-Armstrong, CHC, CF
Five-Year WAR 27.4
Guaranteed Dollars
Team Control Through 2030
Previous Rank
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 24 5.0 Pre-Arb
2027 25 5.6 Arb 1
2028 26 5.6 Arb 2
2029 27 5.6 Arb 3
2030 28 5.6 Arb 4
Pre-Arb
Arb

Great googly moogly, look at those projections. ZiPS has Crow-Armstrong just a hair ahead of Aaron Judge in terms of his five-year WAR forecast, the third-best projection in the major leagues. Still, I shaded him down more than any other player in my personal WAR forecasts (Jacob Wilson, Jackson Chourio, and the next guy on this list got the next-biggest adjustments). It’s really hard to figure out how good PCA will be, because we just don’t have a lot of seasons like this to use as precedent.

If you believe the models, this ranking is too low. I just… don’t. Like many of the players I’ve shaded down in this exercise, PCA is a chaser. He has the highest chase rate in the majors, in fact. He’s reining in his approach somewhat as the year wears on, but even though he’s hacking at a lot of strikes too, he just swings at so many bad pitches. There’s no way he’ll keep putting up this batting line without a massive approach overhaul. The projections have him down around a 115 wRC+ the rest of the year, which sounds even a hair high to me. They also have him down for a seven-win season, though, so clearly he’s pretty freaking good.

Is he going to be a 35-homer guy? It seems likely. PCA’s also going to do that while playing 80-grade defense in center. He’s either the best baserunner in baseball or just short of it. He’s 23. He has a career 108 wRC+ and is clearly improving. The upside here is certainly very high. Most of the players on this list are never going to put up a seven-win season. PCA might do it in his second year.

If you did a straight interpretation of ZiPS, PCA would belong in the top three. I think that teams pay less for defensive value, though, and I also just massively dislike this chase-heavy profile. I wasn’t even the low voice; at least part of the industry is concerned about the same things I am. But look, this guy is a 23-year-old who is having one of the best seasons of the 2020s. There’s a limit to how much you can shade down. PCA is the first of a three-player Young Superstars tier, and even if I’m less enthused than the computers, I’m pretty freaking enthused.

#12 — Julio Rodríguez, SEA, CF
Five-Year WAR 24.5
Guaranteed Dollars $170.7M
Team Control Through 2034
Previous Rank #5
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 25 5.2 $20.2M
2027 26 5.0 $20.2M
2028 27 4.9 $20.2M
2029 28 4.8 $20.2M
2030 29 4.6 $30.0M
Club Option

This was a tough one. I had Julio higher early on – like Tatis, his combination of long-term team control and elite early-career production appeals to me, and he’s not yet 25. I also had him as low as 20th as I kept finding blemishes to wonder about – he’s a chaser! Like I mentioned, I shaded his projections down in my own personal model. But as I tried to imagine whether I’d rather have, say, Rodríguez or Riley Greene, I came to my senses somewhat and posted him back here in the middle.

Rodríguez’s offensive track record is disappointing for a guy you’re thinking of as one of the best players in baseball, but it’s way ahead of the curve for a very good defensive center fielder. He’s not quite at PCA or Ceddanne Rafaela levels with the glove, but he’s in the next group down, and like so many of his defensive counterparts, he’s an excellent baserunner. He has a career 126 wRC+, and his xwOBA is quite consistent from year to year. He’s not doing anything fluky, just swinging hard and getting the ball in the air often enough to make it count.

As I mentioned over the past few days, I tend to discount Mariners pitchers slightly because of the favorable home environment. To be consistent, I do the opposite with Mariners hitters. It’s miserably hard to hit in T-Mobile, and you have to account for that both ways, by a little more than our park effects do. I’m also fine looking through current performance – hopefully both ways symmetrically – when it seems to be driven by short-term factors. Nothing in Rodríguez’s profile looks troubling to me long-term, particularly if you’re expecting him to post a wRC+ in the 120s or 130s instead of the 150s.

The contract is another sticking point, but I’m not all that afraid of it. It’s $20.2 million a year for the next four – for a guy averaging 4.5-ish WAR per season, that’s a steal. Then, you have to decide whether to give him a bag, either eight years and $240 million (if he never has any more top 10 MVP finishes), or as high as 10 years and $350 million if he goes nuclear. Turn that down, and Rodríguez gets the chance to exercise a player option (likely five years and $100 million, though possibly as low as five years and $90 million).

It’s wildly complicated, but think of it this way: If you think Rodríguez is an All-Star but not a generational talent, you can keep him until he’s 28, then probably watch him walk (he’s not taking five years and $100 million unless something catastrophic happens). If he turns out to be one of the best few players in baseball, sure, sign him for a decade to a huge deal; you’re basically getting the option to automatically win his free agency bidding if he ends up being worth it. I love having one of the best all-around center fielders in baseball for the next four years at $20 million or so a year. I love the option to add more only if I want it. I don’t fear his player option because it’s just not that much money.

This was a ton of words, but Rodríguez’s trade value is sure to be controversial. I talked to people who wanted him meaningfully higher, while others wanted him a good bit lower. His offensive volatility feels risky, but his floor is demonstrably very high – I’m talking about how disappointing his bat has been while he puts the finishing touches on his fourth straight four-win season. I don’t feel confident that I got Julio exactly right, but I do feel confident that he’s a comfortable inclusion towards the top of this list.

#11 — Jackson Merrill, SDP, CF
Five-Year WAR 18.6
Guaranteed Dollars $135.0M
Team Control Through 2035
Previous Rank #14
Year Age Projected WAR Contract Status
2026 23 3.4 $2.1M
2027 24 3.8 $7.1M
2028 25 3.8 $9.1M
2029 26 3.9 $11.1M
2030 27 3.8 $21.1M

Merrill, the last of the Young Superstars, is an interesting contrast to the other two outfielders in the group. He’s following a rough Rodríguez trajectory, with a slower follow-up to a dynamic rookie year. He’s on a team-friendly contract that will see him make an average of $14.9 million a year for the next nine years, and there’s even a $21 million option tacked on. (It might be a team option. It might be a player option. Deals are weird these days!). It’ll be pricier than that by a bit; every remaining year’s salary ticks up by a million dollars every time he hits 500 plate appearances. (Again, weird!) The projections aren’t quite as good as they are for either of the other two. The sheer surplus value isn’t quite as good as PCA. But there’s one thing that makes Merrill right at home with those guys: He, too, is a chaser.

I know, I know, it surprised me too. This guy is supposed to be the next Michael Brantley! But that just hasn’t been the case. Brantley owned the strike zone, forcing pitchers to come into his office if they wanted to draw a swing. Merrill’s swing is similarly beautiful, but he unleashes it far too often. He swings with a lot more ferocity than Brantley did and similarly extracts a ton of juice out of his swings because he has elite bat control, but the days of projecting Merrill for outlier strikeout and walk rates are over. Sure, he’s underperforming his xwOBA this year, but I think he’s a riskier hitter than his billing entering the league.

That’s okay. He doesn’t need to be the next Brantley, because he’s going to hit for more power than that. I just wanted to point out that his profile isn’t the same as it was when he came into the league. I’m not worried about him finding his way to a 15-20% above average batting line. I’m willing to wager that he won’t turn into the perfect-zone-judgment perfect-bat-control monster I thought we might get, though.

If he keeps playing plus defense in center, he’ll have more wiggle room offensively. I think he probably will; I have him a level below Rodríguez but still comfortably above average. He’s never going to be PCA out there, but I think he’s going to hit better (sorry, ZiPS). He’s a bargain, a great player, and a difficult projection, just like everyone in this group. If you include Jackson Chourio, who was initially in this tier before I dropped him for reasons I wrote about yesterday, there are a ton of great young outfielders getting set to top leaderboards for years to come, and to do it while making reasonable salaries. No one disagreed with me that Merrill should be the head of this group, though; his deal and his skill set are both difference makers.

2025 Trade Value, 11-50
Rank Prev Name Team Pos 2026 2027 2028 2029 2030
Young Superstars
11 14 Jackson Merrill SDP CF 3.4
$2.1M
3.8
$7.1M
3.8
$9.1M
3.9
$11.1M
3.8
$21.1M
12 5 Julio Rodríguez SEA CF 5.2
$20.2M
5.0
$20.2M
4.9
$20.2M
4.8
$20.2M
4.6
$30.0M
13 Pete Crow-Armstrong CHC CF 5.0
Pre-Arb
5.6
Arb 1
5.6
Arb 2
5.6
Arb 3
5.6
Arb 4
Tarik Skubal
14 24 Tarik Skubal DET SP 5.6
Arb 3
Great Players I’d Take Tarik Skubal Over
15 6 Fernando Tatis Jr. SDP OF 4.7
$20.7M
4.7
$25.7M
4.4
$25.7M
4.2
$36.7M
3.8
$36.7M
16 16 Logan Webb SFG SP 4.8
$23.0M
4.4
$23.0M
4.0
$24.0M
17 HM Garrett Crochet BOS SP 4.6
$24.8M
4.4
$28.8M
4.2
$28.8M
3.8
$28.8M
3.5
$28.8M
18 10 Will Smith LAD C 3.9
$16.0M
3.3
$16.0M
2.8
$12.5M
2.2
$12.5M
1.7
$12.5M
19 17 José Ramírez CLE 3B 4.5
$21.0M
3.6
$23.0M
2.7
$25.0M
20 13 Riley Greene DET OF 4.1
Arb 1
4.2
Arb 2
4.1
Arb 3
Controllable Aces
21 HM Cristopher Sánchez PHI SP 3.6
$3.5M
3.3
$6.5M
3.0
$9.5M
2.6
$14.0M
2.2
$15.0M
22 HM Hunter Brown HOU SP 3.9
Arb 1
3.7
Arb 2
3.6
Arb 3
23 22 George Kirby SEA SP 2.6
Arb 2
2.5
Arb 3
2.4
Arb 4
Franchise Players With Question Marks
24 25 Jackson Chourio MIL OF 3.1
$7.3M
3.2
$8.3M
3.4
$9.3M
3.5
$15.3M
3.5
$16.3M
25 HM Junior Caminero TBR 3B 2.9
Pre-Arb
3.5
Pre-Arb
4.1
Arb 1
4.4
Arb 2
4.5
Arb 3
26 HM Eury Pérez MIA SP 1.8
Pre-Arb
2.1
Arb 1
2.3
Arb 2
2.3
Arb 3
27 HM Spencer Strider ATL SP 2.6
$20.0M
2.5
$22.0M
2.4
$22.0M
2.2
$22.0M
28 8 Yordan Alvarez HOU DH 3.5
$26.8M
3.2
$26.8M
2.9
$26.8M
Begrudgingly Ahead of Ketel Marte
29 48 Hunter Greene CIN SP 3.1
$8.3M
3.0
$15.3M
3.0
$16.3M
2.9
$21.0M
30 Alejandro Kirk TOR C 4.1
$8.7M
3.9
$12.3M
3.7
$12.3M
3.3
$12.3M
2.9
$12.3M
Ketel Marte
31 43 Ketel Marte ARI 2B 4.3
$15.0M
3.7
$12.0M
2.8
$20.0M
2.0
$22.0M
1.5
$22.0M
Nice Catchers, Gimme Marte
32 9 Adley Rutschman BAL C 3.9
Arb 2
3.9
Arb 3
33 27 William Contreras MIL C 4.5
$12.0M
4.0
Arb 3
Nice Pitchers, Gimme Marte
34 HM Bryan Woo SEA SP 2.9
Pre-Arb
2.9
Arb 1
2.8
Arb 2
2.6
Arb 3
35 Jacob Misiorowski MIL SP 2.1
Pre-Arb
2.4
Pre-Arb
2.5
Pre-Arb
2.5
Arb 1
2.5
Arb 2
36 23 Logan Gilbert SEA SP 2.8
Arb 3
2.5
Arb 4
37 HM Yoshinobu Yamamoto LAD SP 3.5
$16.2M
3.4
$30.2M
3.3
$30.2M
3.1
$30.2M
2.8
$33.2M
Superstars on Fair Deals
38 HM Zack Wheeler PHI SP 4.3
$42.0M
3.4
$42.0M
39 44 Francisco Lindor NYM SS 5.4
$34.1M
4.4
$34.1M
3.7
$34.1M
2.6
$34.1M
1.9
$34.1M
40 42 Corey Seager TEX SS 4.0
$31.5M
3.3
$31.5M
2.6
$31.5M
2.1
$31.5M
1.4
$31.5M
41 HM Byron Buxton MIN CF 3.2
$15.1M
2.7
$15.1M
2.1
$15.1M
Industry Darlings
42 HM Roman Anthony BOS OF 3.4
Pre-Arb
3.9
Pre-Arb
4.2
Pre-Arb
4.2
Arb 1
4.3
Arb 2
43 40 Zach Neto LAA SS 3.2
Arb 1
3.7
Arb 2
3.8
Arb 3
3.8
Arb 4
44 36 Wyatt Langford TEX OF 3.4
Pre-Arb
3.8
Arb 1
3.9
Arb 2
4.0
Arb 3
Solid Infielders
45 31 Masyn Winn STL SS 3.1
Pre-Arb
3.4
Arb 1
3.5
Arb 2
3.5
Arb 3
46 29 Jordan Westburg BAL 2B/3B 3.1
Pre-Arb
3.0
Arb 1
2.8
Arb 2
2.6
Arb 3
47 32 CJ Abrams WSN SS 3.3
Arb 1
3.5
Arb 2
3.5
Arb 3
High Volatility
48 Jacob Wilson ATH SS 3.0
Pre-Arb
3.2
Pre-Arb
3.2
Arb 1
3.2
Arb 2
3.0
Arb 3
49 Drake Baldwin ATL C 2.1
Pre-Arb
2.2
Pre-Arb
2.3
Arb 1
2.4
Arb 2
2.0
Arb 3
50 HM Ceddanne Rafaela BOS CF 3.3
$2.3M
3.3
$3.8M
3.7
$5.8M
3.4
$7.8M
3.4
$10.8M





Ben is a writer at FanGraphs. He can be found on Bluesky @benclemens.

259 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

I think I’m much higher on pitchers in general than Ben here. I would have put Sanchez at 9 or 10, I would have put Crochet and Webb in the 12 to 14 range, Brown around 15 or 16…but I can accept concern over pitchers in general. Maybe they do belong in the 18-22 range.

But then I think almost all the other pitchers need to get moved down, except maybe Skubal who is a win now kind of pitcher where long term concerns aren’t as big a deal (and Wheeler, who probably should be much higher). There’s no real reason to be paying premium trade prices for Logan Gilbert or Bryan Woo or Eury Perez if we are that concerned about things going wrong (which I am not, but it seems like this list’s general vibe is).

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
booondMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Skubal is a top-ten guy.

Graham LewisMember since 2019
1 year ago

Skubal is obviously the best pitcher in the world but with only one remaining year of control I think he would be lower on my list.

Chili Davis Eyes
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Lewis

If you’re trying to win the World Series this year or next, why wouldn’t you empty the farm for Tarik Skubal? If Skubal magically became available today every prospect on every contender in baseball would be available to the Tigers.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago

Isn’t that also generally true for all these other guys ahead of him? Except for Ohtani/Judge who would be off limits for the smaller market teams.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Graham Lewis

Part of the idea of trading for him would be the exclusive rights to negotiate with him early. Most top stars arent making it to market

He still gets discounted because the 40M+ youre gonna have to pay starting in ’27 hurts, of course

warpath
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Worth noting that I believe Skubal is a Boras client. I doubt that he fails to reach the open market.

JimmyMember since 2019
1 year ago

I think the problem in your reasoning for PCA is that at least 1 team is going to value him as highly as those projections, and this exercise should just be based on the likely highest bidder. Someone’s going to believe he’s a 5-6 WAR player going forward, even with the massive chase rate. He’s already at the 31st highest WAR in a single season by a player 23 or younger in the last 2 decades, and he’s on pace to finish 5th on that list (behind Bryce Harper and 3 seasons of Trout). I simply don’t buy that no team values him much more highly than you.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jimmy
carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

I think the same thing. Some players the exercise is “would any team” whereas others it’s not. I do realize you have to draw the line somewhere tho

HappyFunBallMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  carter

I think the exercise is more of a “reasonable highest return” scenario.

For some players the whole league would be in, while for others there may only be a few bidders. But if those few would be likely to pay a dear price then that’s a high-valued player.

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  HappyFunBall

That’s how it’s mostly been phrased so far. If that’s how they are doing it they must be seriously disagreeing with zips…

SyndergaardengnomesMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

I agree. What’s PCA’s reasonable comp over the next few years, Mike Cameron with even better defense?

That’s just insanely valuable. With how low the bar is for CF offense right now, and the fact that PCA is perhaps the best defensive CF’r since Andruw Jones, what an insane combination…

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago

Ben’s just more sanguine about his having Cameron’s offense, because of the chase.

But also, holy shit PCA is something.

SyndergaardengnomesMember since 2020
1 year ago

I left some room for downside slippage by invoking Cameron though. Cameron never had an offensive season like PCA is having right now. PCA can regress a bit and still be at the peak of Cameron’s offensive prowess.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

Mike Cameron is a better hitter than we all remember. Ended his career with a career 107 wRC+, and between 1999 and 2009 he had wRC+’s between 105 and 122 every year (while playing every day).

The real question is what he’d be like if his wRC+ was hovering around a 90.

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
Sleepy
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Tiny sample (159 PA) caveats and all, but Denzel Clarke’s at a 4.9 fWAR/600 pace with a 75 wRC+.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Sleepy

I don’t think Clarke is going to continue that level of defensive value over a full season, and I definitely don’t think Crow-Armstrong will do that! That would be something like 65% higher performance than what Crow-Armstrong is doing and he’s already turning in one of the best CF performances of the last decade.

EDIT: Here are the top 5 CF FRVs over the last decade or so.

Byron Buxton, 26 FRV (2017)
Victor Robles, 23 FRV (2019)
Billy Hamilton, 21 FRV (2016)
Michael A Taylor, 20 FRV (2021)
Lorenzo Cain, 19 FRV (2018)

With the exception of Billy Hamilton (who had 942), the lowest number of innings of these guys is 1143 (Buxton).

Pete Crow-Armstrong has had 891.2 innings and already has 17 FRV, which would put him square in the middle of that group when he crosses Buxton’s innings total (about 21 FRV). If he plays over 1300 innings, at that place he’ll approximately match Buxton.

Denzel Clarke’s pace is so high it is very hard to believe it can continue for him, much less that anyone else could do it. He has 11 FRV in only 383.2 innings. He would be at about 33 FRV around the time he hits Buxton’s total.

I don’t see any way Pete Crow-Armstrong does anything like that.

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

Teams will look at the walk rate and chase rate, maybe someone doesn’t (Colorado?) but I find even that hard to believe. I think the issue is more who is going to trade what the Cubs would want for PCA (5-6 wins at a bargain price) knowing the walk rate is bad and the chase rate is really bad?

JimmyMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

I’m quite sure that ZiPS is aware of the walk and chase rates, and it still spits out 5-6 wins. I’m sure there are teams whose internal models say something similar.

alexpMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

ZiPS spits out a big number for Michael Harris as well. There just is no offensive floor for these high strikeout, no walk players.

MarioLopez
1 year ago
Reply to  alexp

Harris hits the ball on the ground significantly more than PCA does. There are reasons to question if PCA can sustain his pull/air rate but as long as he does he’s going to have a higher offensive floor than Harris and all the other high chase rate guys

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

I wonder how much teams internal models vary from war. Largest difference probably the Rockies but again, who knows

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  carter

The only internal model I would believe for the Rockies is an old sailing ship built inside a glass bottle.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  NATS Fan

Rockies definitely have an internal model, they built it under Brdich. Seems to adjust less for Coors than public models, so that they think all their hitters are better than we do and they think all their pitchers are worse.

Hopefully it also does a better job with defensive metrics than the public models in Coors, the public models routinely overestimate the value of their infielders and underestimate the value of the outfielders.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

I had PCA in my Top 10 when I did the trade game thing, but as I went on further I started questioning it a lot. I don’t think there’s an especially argument for keeping him out of the top 10 when he’s probably going to finish the year with 35+ homers and some of the best center field defense we have seen in the last decade (he is already 10th in FRV for CFsince we started getting Statcast fielding and he’s 300 innings behind most of the players ahead of him). But there are some enormous red flags–for 2025 he has:

Highest O-Zone swing (44.8%)
Highest Swing % overall (61.2%)
83 out of 158 in O-contact (56.0%)–this one isn’t bad on its own, necessarily
126 out of 158 in Z-contact (82.8%)
130 out of 158 in contact rate (72.6%)–not a surprise with everything else I just noted
82 out of 158 in EV90 (105.3)–this one also isn’t bad on its own
98 out of 158 in hard hit rate (41.7%)–again, not bad on its own

That’s not a good combination at all, although he can make it work sometimes because his launch angle is so high that every hard hit ball is a barrel. Who does this look like at the plate? It looks a lot like Salvador Perez, if he didn’t hit the ball nearly as hard as Perez. It looks like Javier Baez in his bad years, except at a higher launch angle. It looks a lot like Luis Robert, except with way less plate discipline (seriously).

Is this the kind of guy you want to put on the Top 10 of the trade value list? I don’t know. He’s also projected to finish the year with 7 fWAR, and he’s on a rookie deal under team control until 2030. If he’s a 4 win player going forward on the rest of his rookie deal, how would you rank him? Probably right around here, right?

A Salty ScientistMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I had PCA in the top 10 because of that incredibly high floor. He’s the rare player like early-career Buxton, who can put up 4-5 WAR with basically league-average offense. I agree with the red flags, which I think makes him more volatile, but if he sprinkles in 2 more seasons like this before he hits free agency, he’ll be super valuable.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

He kind of reminds me of Kevin Kiermaier with power, except that the Rays heavily protected Kiermaier with platoon matchups and eventually Kiermaier’s injuries got really bad. You take a look at PCA’s platoon splits and he murders right handed pitching and has absolutely no idea what he’s doing against left handed pitching. He’s striking out ten times more often against left handed pitching than right handed pitching. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s straight up guessing against left-handed pitching a good chunk of the time (he’s still hitting for power against lefties, it’s everything else that’s bad).

Small sample, but if I’m playing the Cubs in a close game and PCA is coming to the plate I’m bringing in your basic left handed reliever, think Jalen Beeks or Jared Koenig, and I’m watching PCA’s head spin. And if he doesn’t improve next year, you’d have to at least consider sitting PCA against any left handed starter better than Mitchell Parker / Bailey Falter. I don’t know how I feel about that, because he’s also only 23, and I think he could get better with more reps. And he’s so good against right handed pitching I might not care.

Last edited 1 year ago by sadtrombone
JimmyMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Uh I think you misread something. He’s striking out 50% more often against left handed pitching. His 85 wRC+ against lefties isn’t good but I think you made a mistake somewhere.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

Oh yeah, 10x more than he’s walking. Good catch.

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Got that good ole 300% k rate

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He murdered Mitchell Parker.

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago

The floor is because of the glove, but we’ve seen gloves disappear (hello Carl Crawford, which many people on this site at the time thought was a good signing because the glove gave him a high floor, oh well, Crawford was, of course, much older so it’s not a great comp). What PCA is doing isn’t sustainable, but if he were to make some adjustments, then we’re talking a 5/6 or even 8 win player. But do you want to give up three or four 50 plus FV prospects to find out?

MarioLopez
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Crawford’s glove didn’t disappear until the season he turned 30. That’s 2032 for PCA so it wouldn’t be a remote concern for his trade value right now

JimmyMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

My issue is mainly with the process rather than the ranking itself. Trade value is about the likely highest bid, not your own perceived value of the player, no?

That being said, you can subtract about 20 runs from his current offensive output this season and he’d still be on pace for 4 WAR. -1.5 batting runs puts him a hair behind Miguel Vargas on the year in around the same amount of PAs. Vargas has a 98 wRC+. If you believe in the power at all, I don’t see how you project PCA to be a worse than average hitter going forward, and even if he’s just average that’s an incredibly high floor.

ichiro262Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

Problem is the “highest bid” methodology is also applied to every player above PCA. It’s not like the highest bidder for PCA will ignore his chase rate — even if some teams are more bullish, they’re still regressing him somewhat on that basis.

I don’t find it hard to believe that the highest bidder for every player above PCA on the list will be higher than the highest bidder for PCA.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Luis Robert Max EV: 117.8
Salvy Perez Max EV: 114.4 (48 HR year)
Javy Baez Max EV: 116.7
Julio Max EV: 117.2 (although notably it’s declined every year)

PCA Max EV: 111.8
Merrill Max EV: 111.6
Kevin Kiermaier Max EV: 112.2

Salvy’s Max EVs looked more like PCA earlier in his career and Javy’s didnt peak until his late 20s…but, you’re hoping he’s more than Javy Baez or Salvy Perez if youre pushing him up, right? Kiermaier was a platoon who never had that splashy season but his rate numbers werent that far from those guys over the career. Throw an extra 100 ABs on him for every season and that guy is…well, I guess he’s around the value of Javy and Salvy

I dont know how PCA’s hit 27 HRs in 100 games doing this but I dont buy it holding with what he’s currently doing

JimmyMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

It’s pulling the ball in the air. Kiermaier ran a ground ball rate over 50% for his career, whereas Crow-Armstrong has the 16th highest pull air % in baseball. It’s the reason Bregman managed to hit 25+ HR 5 times despite a max EV around 107 mph.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

Right, I’m aware EV isnt everything and in fact is very much not illustrative for certain guys who have insane bat control. But PCA doesnt fit that! It’s usually guys who are pretty contact heavy, or at least demonstrated that skill at one point

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Salvy as a gg cf is a sure fire hofer. Obv that’s a way beyond median outcome for pca, But even zips thinks he’s basically a hall of famer already, which is insane.

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Batting like Perez and being a gold glove candidate in CF on a minimum salary is immensely valuable. I had him first overall cause time and salary matter. He has plenty of time to get even better and should.

Logan DavisMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

PCA is no doubt super valuable but I think his ranking may be more about who’s ahead of him than any knock on him. The league is stacked.

I think Merrill and Julio are correctly rated ahead of PCA. With these 23-24 year old franchise cornerstones, having the team control is super valuable. Merrill’s contract is friendlier than Julio’s, so he’s top of the trio. But even Julio you can essentially get his whole career at reasonable rates. Whereas PCA could still walk in free agency.

And yes, PCA is currently performing the best of the three, but this is also what Julio and Merrill’s breakout seasons looked like, and obviously the league adjusted some. Teams will adjust to PCA’s chase rate too. If PCA is looking like Mike Cameron, well, so is Julio, and I’d rather have the one I control for 13 years. I think you could say the same “highest bidder” thing about teams that think they can fix Julio’s launch angles and get him back to a .500 SLG%.

Last edited 1 year ago by Logan Davis
kingofdiamondsMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  Logan Davis

And on the point about the highest bidder, there’s a highest bidder for PCA who thinks he’s a 120-130 wRC+ guy who will put up more MVP-level seasons, but there’s also a highest bidder for Merrill who thinks he can reach the “Michael Brantley with power and acceptable CF defense” forecast and put up some MVP-level seasons, and a highest bidder for Julio who’s looking at his home/away splits (which are particularly pronounced this year) and thinking that TMobile Park is partly responsible for his swinging too much at bad pitches and they can fix him and turn him into the perennial MVP candidate he still looks like he’s capable of becoming.

I’m not 100% sure the exact ordering is correct, but I think putting them in the same tier and around here in the rankings is the right choice.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Jimmy

I mean the reality is no one is trading any of these players but you need more than 1 team! The Mets had to pay Soto 765M because the Yanks were right there up to 760 and the Yanks kept going that far because Boston and Toronto were in on it for a while, too

JimmyMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Free agency and trades are different. In free agency, you’ve sort of got a Vickrey/second price auction (though not entirely, since there’s some imperfect knowledge of other bids). A player is probably not going to hold out if the top team doesn’t meet their number, but that can sort of be used as a bid floor. For trades, a team has more leverage to hold out for the top team’s highest bid unless a player is a rental.

JimmieFoxxalorianMember since 2020
1 year ago

Crochet continues to knit a tapestry of greatness in 2025. I expect more of the same through his prime years, and his contract captures all of those years. That’s why he’d be in my top 10. Sure, there’s elbow risk. But in this era, I view every hard throwing pitcher as having TJS risk, so I feel that shouldn’t limit his value

Last edited 1 year ago by JimmieFoxxalorian
OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago

Do teams discount pitchers who already have TJ? Should we do that in this exercise? A second TJ is worse than a first, but are you less likely to have a second if you had a first? We see teams draft great prep/college arms coming off TJ usually for a discount and sometimes it works out great.

I honestly don’t know the answer btw, curious what others think.

JimmieFoxxalorianMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

TJS has become so common (and happening often now as early as high school), that I think MLB teams must accept that there is risk of it in all pitchers. Even for ones who haven’t gone under the knife, it feels like an inevitability. But it’s also not as doom and gloom as some consider it. Many pitchers are healthy for a good number of years following TJS. Some perform better than before. Some are worse.

There is also a lot of randomness with TJ injury timing, it can happen early in a career or late in a career or after a few pitches in first game or after a thousand innings. We know that the risk exists, but there’s much uncertainty about forecasting the likelihood of injury or how to effectively mitigate it. For example, with Crochet, is there greater risk in inning number 150 or 180? And in game, at pitch count 100 versus 115? There’s no common standard for how to reduce the risk other than stay within arbitrary thresholds that are perceived to increase injury risk.

I don’t think teams should discount or downgrade how they value pitchers if they have a TJS history. That history doesn’t guarantee recurrence of injury, just as much a pitcher with no TJS history doesn’t guarantee he’ll be injury-free in the next season. If I’m a team looking for a pitcher, I’d certainly consider the overall medical history, but would prioritize performance and adjust risk tolerance based on how ace-like they are (or will be)

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago

It has been proven that coddling pitchers has not been successful in reducing the number of UCL injuries despite ever conceivable attempt to figure out what causes the ligament to tear. Reducing innings per year hasn’t done a bit of good and keeping pitch counts doesn’t appear to help either. Without a constant it is impossible to know what ignoring these attempts at injury reduction might have been but it can be said, with absolute certainty, that nothing has worked. In a sidelight, there has been an increase in the number of complete games pitched recently. Bello and Crochet both went all the way during one trip through the rotation last week and Sanchez and Lodolo went the distance on consecutive nights this week. With the large amount of blow-ups that have been occurring the instant the starter has come out may be altering strategy, even a little..

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Now sure what numbers you’re looking at. Innings per start is a shade lower this year than it was last year

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

I think the change towards letting the better starters go deeper is only beginning to manifest itself. All of the pitchers who threw CG’s in the last couple of weeks are among the best on their team. I am not expecting to see back of the rotation arms go past the 6th very often but wouldn’t be surprised to see teams stretch their 1-3 men well into the later innings.

dannyrockMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

I’d much rather have a recent first TJ like Crochet as opposed to a first TJ waiting to happen.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

I have read the ligament used to replace the injured UCL is stronger than than the original but that doesn’t prevent recurring failure. Internal bracing is just beginning to become common and it will take at least a few years to see if it is better than original TJ surgery.

jdbolickMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

A pitcher is more likely to have a second TJ than someone having their first, and the success rate of repeat TJs isn’t great. But a lot of guys still never have the second, so it’s a probabilistic unknown.

darren
1 year ago

Fair enough. I would say his risk is a bit higher than guys who have previously shown they can consistently throw 160+ IP per season. It’s not that we know he can’t do it, it’s just that we don’t know that he can. Given that, I like Clemens’s placement of him.

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago

I find the entire TJ argument weird. It’s all subjective. Some teams have stricter TJ other teams more lenient. If you look at what qualifies for needing TJ it’s basically anything.

Pain, swelling. Well all pitchers arms swell after pitching. Hell catchers arms swell after catching. What defines pain? Pain to one guy might not be pain to another guy. Ucl damage or tear. All pitchers have UCL damage. What constitutes UCL damage is basically just based on the team and its doctors and protocol. Is the player someone who you have insurance on? How’s his performance? Would it better for us if he gets TJ or if he keeps pitching? What would the insurance payout be?

It’s akin to when I go to the dentist w bad teeth. I had one dentist tell I had 7 cavities, had one tell me literally 22 cavities and we need to replace my veneers at my cost. Went to another one, was 2 cavities and veneers are safe, and any dentist who suggest cavities in veneers is lying because it’s not possible and they are idiots and mistake discoloring under a veneer in the back for a cavity and are trying to make money. Flew to South America and went to a place with higher ranked dentists where I have healthcare due to my wife. Saw 3 dentists, got 1 cavity, 0 and 0. I can’t help but liken this to TJ, our doctors aren’t real. We have the best doctors in the world for shit like TJ! But… the doctors are also taking advisement from the team based on insurance policies. Guys cooked ok yes TJ. Guys good nah no TJ. Guy is actually hurt ok TJ. Guy has high pain tolerance no TJ, guy has low pain tolerance ok no TJ. Everyone thinks it’s about medical imaging and swelling which is wild. Everyone has swelling, the worst ones I have ever seen are catchers ffs.

We just randomly trust doctors and teams to tell the truth.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

The other one I think I disagree with is Tatis. Okay, he might not be Judge or Witt or Ohtani, or prime Trout or Betts, but he’s been mostly healthy, he is under team control for a very long time at not crazy prices and not too far into his decline years, and he still hits the ball exceptionally hard. I think he can probably play center field, which boosts his value further. He’s on pace for something like a 6 win season and somehow this is viewed as a disappointment. At the minimum I would swap him and Julio Rodriguez (who he has a lot of similarities to), but I think there is a strong case for him being in the top 10. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he wins an MVP in one of those years where Ohtani blows out his UCL and misses half the year.

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

He’s a second positive PED test from being out for an entire year — so he has added risk compared to everyone else on the list. I’d probably move him down tbh.

thaaldermanMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Positive PED tests aren’t things that just happen though. You’d have to think he’s still juicing for this to be a problem, and that’s probably very unlikely given that he’s certainly subjected to extra scrutiny by MLB.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

You wouldn’t have to think he’s still juicing. You’d have to think he may again juice in the future. And that seems like a possibility, albeit a small one, given him having tried to do it before.

Factoring in that risk is completely reasonable.

Chili Davis Eyes
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I mean he could get ringworm again any time.

darren
1 year ago

Has he gotten it before? Is he more susceptible than other players? Do you think it would knock him out for an entire season?

dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I can’t tell if you’re asking tongue in cheek. Ringworm – from a haircut – was his excuse given for his positive test the first time.

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

It’s happened once, which makes me think it’s more likely to happen again vs someone who hasn’t tested positive. I realize it only takes one GM to believe he isn’t on PEDs any more to pay full value, but its going to be harder to get in a bidding war on the trade market if several teams sit it out/drive down the price because of that first suspension. I think we should treat Tatis like a pitcher who’s already had TJ tbh.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Yep, the PED asterisk bumps him down to sanity

nate2095Member since 2019
1 year ago

Any team with Jose Ramirez is saying no to straight up trades for both Webb and Smith. It’s not a huge difference in ranking but I think this undersells the difference between a 4WAR player and 6WAR player.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  nate2095

At the risk of underestimating Jose Ramirez, I don’t think he’s a 6-win player going forward. Even if we think ZIPS’s projection of 4.5/3.6/2.7 is too harsh, he’s a lot closer to a 4-WAR player than a 6-WAR player in the future.

Brian ReinhartMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  nate2095

How to tell you root for bad teams: when you read this comment and think, “Dom Smith?!”

tung_twista
1 year ago
Reply to  nate2095

Smith has eight years of team control left versus three years of Jose Ramirez. 

When it comes to Webb, it is important to note that during the postseason, ace pitchers matter much more than ace hitters (compared to the regular season). 
In 2024 regular season, Logan Gilbert led the league with 208.2 innings, which was 14.5% of the Mariners pitchers.
During the postseason, Gerrit Cole led with 29 innings, which was 23.2% of the Yankees pitchers. 
And this isn’t specific to 2024 postseason Gerrit Cole. Nathan Eovaldi accounted for 23.7% of Rangers pitching during 2023 postseason.

Compare that to Ohtani, who accounted for 11.7% of Dodgers regular season PAs and 12.2% of Dodgers postseason PAs. 
So a straight up proration implies that during the postseason, a 4 WAR pitcher is roughly as valuable as a 6 WAR hitter.
And of course, Webb is a 28 year old 4+ WAR pitcher, while Jose Ramirez is 32. 

averagejoe15Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  tung_twista

I don’t think 8 years of team control is much of a boost for a 30 year old catcher even with the reasonable dollars. Outside of what has been a career year for Smith so far this year, Ramirez has been a better player (and their production is similar this year).

If Smith is now this guy going forward then I buy him as more valuable but the .360 BABIP is hinting at least somewhat to the contrary.

Not really torn up about about the ranking either way but it’s not like the Dodgers are excited about the idea of Smith’s $12M lux tax salary at ages 36 and 38. They tacked on the extra years to get that lower AAV now.

And, while acknowledging he had a bone bruise in his ankle, people were handwringing about Smith’s contract length and position just last season.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  averagejoe15

The thing with Smith is that he’s the only catcher in the sport whose bat would fit comfortably at 1B or even DH, so he doesn’t come with the same age related decline concerns that other catchers have. He’s an impact bat that happens to play catcher

ichiro262Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Only catcher in the sport? Haha have you been watching baseball this year? #bigdumper

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  ichiro262

Forgetting Cal Raleigh is an unforgivable oversight, but in my defense I was only looking at cashiers that have made this list so far

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Herrera was an Honorable Mention.

Lanidrac
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

You’re also forgetting the two catchers that the Cardinals are actually starting at 1B and DH, Willson Contreras and Ivan Herrera respectively.

Maybe Contreras doesn’t count anymore, since he hasn’t played a single inning at catcher this year and possibly may never do so again, but Herrera certainly counts, plus he’s only 25 years old. Even though the Cardinals want to avoid giving Herrera playing time at catcher for the rest of this season, that’s not intended to be a permanent situation.

Also, the Cardinals also have yet another catcher, Yohel Pozo, who is running a 132 wRC+ in limited playing time. I wouldn’t expect him to keep up that kind of batting line if he were to get a starting catcher’s playing time, but the dude’s bat has suddenly developed into a huge positive for a guy who bounced between three different AAA teams since 2022 before finally get another shot at the Big Leagues after his cup of coffee in 2021.

Last edited 1 year ago by Lanidrac
dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  Lanidrac

There’s more..

Is everyone that down on Salvador Perez now? Statcast thinks he’s been super unlucky, and he still has a 106 wRC+ with 18 HR.

Hunter Goodman DH’d a lot to start the year. And being on the Rockies, he deserved it. He still deserves it on the Rox.

Drake Baldwin/Sean Murphy?

Ben Rice has 12 games at C this year..

And Agustin Ramirez would have a team-based case as well if not for Stowers, who really doesn’t need a glove all that much more than Ramirez does. Though I wouldn’t argue with someone who said Ramirez is not a catcher..

rickdugo3000
1 year ago

I don’t think Skubal can be ahead of Crochet when they’re very nearly the same guy and Crochet has 5 more years of control

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

Crochet’s incredible.

Skubal’s been meaningfully better the last two years, the last three years, and the last four years.

rickdugo3000
1 year ago

for sure Skubal has a better track record. But Crochet is 85-90% of him right now? They have the same exact ERA. Skubal is ahead in some under the hood stuff but certainly not in any way that makes Crochet look bad. Skubal is the number 1 pitcher alive right now but Crochet is no worse than number 3, and this isn’t anything close to a 1999 Pedro situation where there’s a huge gap. Would anybody be shocked if Crochet outpitched Skubal over any sample size moving forward?

And then Crochet has four more years of control.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

Would anybody be shocked if Crochet outpitched Skubal over any sample size moving forward?

Outside of Skubal’s arm imploding, I would be,

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago

Why?

dodgerbleu
1 year ago

Crochet was WAYYY better than Skubal last year on a per inning basis, and that includes his horrendous 2nd half. We don’t know if he can maintain that over 180 IP, so far the answer is he can’t, but he’s shown his low-volume best is on par with Skubal’s best. At least.

thaaldermanMember since 2024
1 year ago

This comparison doesn’t make any sense. Of course Skubal was “meaningfully better” when Crochet was in the bullpen in 2022, injured in 2023, and limited to 38.2 IP in the second half of 2024.

But he’s not “meaningfully better” now, and Crochet is 2.5 years younger and signed for at least three more years than Skubal is.

Last edited 1 year ago by thaalderman
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  thaalderman

Being healthy and able to pitch is meaningfully better than not being those things.

averagejoe15Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Skubal isn’t some paradigm of health himself. 2024 was Skubal’s first fully healthy, complete, effective MLB season. He was bad in 150 innings in 2021 and didn’t pitch full seasons in 22 or 23 due to flexor tendon surgery (still pitched 200 high quality innings around the injury). He also had TJ in college.

Crochet pitched a fully healthy, effective season in 2021 out of the bullpen and then essentially missed 22 and 23 due to injuries. He was fully healthy last year with conservative innings limits.

I buy Skubal as the better pitcher but not meaningfully and, while he’s been more available, I don’t buy the health risk being meaningfully lower at this point. Crochet’s contract situation is also “meaningfully better” than Skubal’s.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I mean it’s not like Skubal has this lengthy record of durability. Last year was his first year surpassing 150 innings

The argument here isn’t so much that Crochet is better that Skubal, it’s that they’re a lot closer than you might think. I would be about 95% as excited to have Crochet start game 1 of a playoff series as I would Skubal, and I get him for 4 additional years!

darren
1 year ago

I can see the argument for Crochet being ahead due to team control, but CLS is right that we have to acknowledge that Skubal has been much better.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Yeah, I do want to emphasize that I’m crediting Skubal for being the no-doubt #1 pitcher in baseball over the last 25 months, rather than knocking Crochet for “only” being a Top 5 pitcher in baseball for the last 14 months, haha!

I’d probably have Crochet ahead of Skubal, myself!

averagejoe15Member since 2024
1 year ago

Has he been meaningfully better the last two years? If we’re talking 2024 and 2025 he’s been better, but not meaningfully better unless you’re strictly going off ERA.

4 years ago Skubal was downright bad while Crochet was an elite bullpen arm. They both dealt with injuries in 2022 and 2023. Granted Crochet basically didn’t pitch and Skubal combined for 200 high quality innings between injuries.

Skubal is a better pitcher than Crochet but I’d quibble over “meaningfully better.” Their in the same class of pitcher right now and depending on how you want to measure it that same is true last year.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  rickdugo3000

I would definitely put Crochet ahead of Skubal because I think the extra years of team control will be a net positive, enough that it would outweigh the difference in quality over the next year and a half. But with the injury risk for pitchers who average 96 on their fastballs and all of the questions about his durability there are a lot of scenarios where those extra years of team control are not a net positive. And there are a lot of GMs who are going to be fired if they don’t win in the next couple of years, so the fact that Skubal is better now might mean more to them.

averagejoe15Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yea this is what I struggle with a bit here. Skubal is a better pitcher than Crochet and for a team in contention there’s an enormous near-term bias, especially for pitchers.

But it’s still the same tier of pitcher, they’re both fully healthy right now, and Crochet’s contract situation is more favorable in most instances.

I do think in a hypothetical world where Skubal and Crochet were both available, small market teams like the Brewers, Reds, Rays, and Guardians would contend for his services but not Crochet’s because they aren’t going to take on the financial commitment.

But I’m not sure if that would make up for the difference in value of having an ace under contract through his age 31 season on what should be a pretty reasonable cost for his production.

My other thought/question is would time of year impact the value between the two? In the offseason when free agency is going on or about to start and teams are establishing and updating budgets, would Crochet be more valuable because teams are better able to plan around his long-term contract at that point? Versus the trade deadline where budgets have been set with maybe some additional short-term spending approved in improve the team in they are in contention?

MJD
1 year ago

i mean unless you’re guaranteed to resign him is there any team that is going to value crochet over skubal??

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  MJD

Teams that care about body type and track record.

Skubal’s xERA is also notably better than Crochet’s…and Crochet’s is amazing.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  MJD

Do you mean it the other way? I would think a lot of teams would value having Crochet on a long-term, reasonable deal over Skubal for 1 1/3 years.

MJD
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

yes i meant it the other way lol, i’m an idiot – crochet should be > skubal in terms of value is what i meant

KyleMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  MJD

It’s not about the player, it’s about the contract.

MJD
1 year ago
Reply to  MJD

meant to say ISN’T here

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago

I still don’t know what to do with Greene, he continues to run insane BABIP’s (he’d be like 13th all time for anyone with 2k PA), he strikes out a ton, and his walk rate is more fine than good. He can’t keep getting away with this right? It’d be one thing if he didn’t strike out… In moment it seemed like the White Sox did fine in the Crochet trade but in retrospect, they didn’t get nearly enough, even when you factor in he was due a contract, the lack of track record allowed the BoSox to get him for a song (though Braden Montgomery could still make this close to a wash). Six win pitchers are incredibly rare these days… Tatis is too high because of the downside risk of another positive PED test, that contract becomes bad and the risk of horrible if there is a third… PCA, I don’t know, he doesn’t walk so there’s so much downside but he’s clearly figured something out and it’s hard not to have him in the top 12 because of it… Julio Rodriguez is not who we all wanted him to be and he’s far too high. That’s a lot of money for a non-impact bat who doesn’t get on base over his last 1,000 PA, I’d probably move him into the mid 20s.

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Teel is also showing signs of being a valuable player. I tend to see this deal as a positive for both teams. I was stunned when the Red Sox dealt him because of the catching situation last year but it appears they knew what they were getting in Narvaez who should hold down the position for years to come.

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

My confidence in high BABIP players is taking a bit of hit this year with Seiya and Teoscar running more normal ones

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Pretty sure you’d be happy w Seiyas outcome anyway

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

I felt like the White Sox made out pretty well. It’s easy to forget that Teel, while the lowest rated of the Sox top 4 prospects, was a great prospect. He’s already in the Majors and playing well. And FWIW, everything reported about him seems to indicate he has the right mental makeup,etc, to be a good catcher.

Montgomery has shown he’s healed up and has been playing well in A/A+. He’s a 50 prospect (#63 overall) in the latest FG rankings.

Those two are the meat of the trade, but wait, there’s more! More of a throw in, Chase Meidroth looks like a legitimate Major League contributor, especially since he’s demonstrated he can play SS. His complete lack of power is going to limit him, but he looks like an averagish middle infielder right now. And there’s Gonzalez too, who is ???

As a Red Sox fan, when I look back on this deal, I wonder what it would have looked liked if they were willing to include Campbell. They would still have Teel, filling a position for which they have no depth at all. They might still have Meidroth or Montgomery as well.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Yeah, Teel splitting time backing up Narvaez while getting 1B reps would be pretty damn useful in Boston right nowz

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Meidroth’s lack of power really limits his upside, seems like a 5th infielder which has value obviously, but I don’t think its that hard to replace someone like Meidroth (though obviously the Sox have had issues finding anyone this good for a few years which is a whole other problem).

The Sox still didn’t get any of the BoSox top three prospects, one of whom is on this list below Crochet — though obviously Crochet’s contract situation and track record weren’t what they are now. But Crochet for Anthony plus say Meidroth would have been a much better trade for the White Sox and still fair for the Red Sox.

slamcactusMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

That “5th infielder” is putting up exactly 2.0 WAR/600 as a 23-year-old, and that’s after a pretty huge cold stretch. Maybe the cold stretch continues and proves he’s not a regular but I’m not ready to give up on him yet.

averagejoe15Member since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  slamcactus

It depends on whether you think the cold stretch is because he’s going to make an adjustment or because the league knows he’s a weak hitter who can be challenged with minimal consequence.

Feels more like a Nick Madrigal/David Fletcher type situation who both started well in the league.

Meidroth has been walking at a decent clip and walked a ton in the minors (far more than the other two ever did), but that skill is only so valuable if pitcher just ends up challenging you in the zone a ton.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

To be fair, would you trade Crochet (or any player in this range) for a 50/50/45 FV package?

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Having already seen Crochet hold up and dominate so far, no, I wouldn’t do that.

Even before the season, in the abstract, I would have thought that 50/50/45 wouldn’t be a great deal for the White Sox. But I guess I just think/thought that Teel was better than a 50 and Meidroth was better than a 45. Preseason, ZIPS had them projected for 2.4 and 2.6 WAR, respectively. I think that was a lot closer to my feelings about them.

It’s certainly debatable.

ETA: That Meidroth grade includes a 40 defense at 2B, which seems very wrong now. If he’s anywhere near the plus defender he seems to be at SS, he’s a 50 grade player.

Last edited 1 year ago by darren
JimmieFoxxalorianMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

Campbell still might develop into something special. Saw flashes of his potential in April before he fell into a deep slump. The upside is still there

darren
1 year ago

Yeah, he’s a good prospect. He was just the riskiest of their four top prospects IMO. He didn’t have the pedigree of the other four and shot through several levels and teams had little chance to see him repeatedly and adjust. Meanwhile, Teel filled a huge organizational need, and had continued success over multiple years in the minors.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Admittedly when the Crochet trade happened, I thought it was fair but a steep price to pay. In hindsight, it looks like the Redsox bought kind of low (and were smart to extend him) as I doubt that package would get close to landing any player in this range, and I like Montgomery a good amount.

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

I’m not even sure exactly how I’d answer this, but would your opinion change if Crochet blew out his shoulder tomorrow?

warpath
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

I think the White Sox did okay in the trade given what was known at the time. Crochet had less than 150 IP as an effective major league starter and a lengthy injury history.

There was also the issue that Crochet didn’t really seem to hide the fact last year that he didn’t want to stay with the White Sox. It was no surprise when he was traded, and the White Sox may have lost some leverage because of all that business.

It’s easy to look at it as a heist now with Crochet performing very well on a heavy workload this year, but that was far from guaranteed before the season started.

Last edited 1 year ago by warpath
bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago

All these young outfielders can be lumped together and each year a couple will have good years, a couple will have average years and some will be Luis Robert. I have a tough time attaching myself to players with K-rates above 30% and just can’t see Riley Greene being consistent. The fact that Rafaela has dropped his rate from 31.5% in 2023 to 18.6% this season is one of my reasons for being so excited about his chances to break out. Around the middle of May I had Merrill penciled in as the next superstar, but he has, if not collapsed, at least staggered since. Out of this group, at this time, I wouldn’t be confident in making a guess on what the hierarchy will look like in five years but I will be following their performance closely as I continue to enjoy the game.

booondMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Merrill’s problems of late may be due to the concussion he had in June.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  booond

Which is probably okay long term, unless you’re in an Anthony Rizzo / Clint Frazier situation, which doesn’t seem super common but is bad enough that I’d be worried anyway.

booondMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I agree. He started off on fire but had the hammy injury and then the concussion. Hopefully, he rights the ship for the last two months.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Concussions are so, so hard to predict. Someone can have a “mild” concussion and deal with symptoms for months, if not longer, and someone else can have multiple severe concussions and return relatively unscathed.

For some players, a minute drop in their ability to process information at speed or a slight vision degradation can be the difference between MLB and washing out.

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Rizzo could of just been decline

slamcactusMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

Don’t look now but since coming back from his latest injury Robert’s hitting .351/.442/.541. It’s a tiny sample (11 games/43 PA) but for a guy who’s had as much trouble staying on the field as he has I think there’s a chance things could be a bit more complicated than “the White Sox ruined him LOL.” Dude’s just 2 years removed from a 3-year stretch where he put up a 129 wRC+ and averaged just under 5 WAR/600 (and yes, missed at least a little time each season to injuries).

Last edited 1 year ago by slamcactus
dodgerbleu
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I believe in Ceddane, but we need to see the second half as the league adjusts. Heck, we really need to see another year to know. Matt Olson went from 31.4% to 16.8% and has been 23-24% each of the 4 years since.

Riley Greene I don’t understand. Ks up, BBs down, avg EV slightly down, hard hit% is ever so slightly the lowest of his career. In that park too. His barrel rate is up, but I just don’t get it.

I like both, and Greene has no doubt the more proven track record – Ceddane was a legitimately bad hitter just last year and still has questions about maintaining his gains – but I can’t see a way to justify Greene over Ceddane right now..

formerly matt wMember since 2025
1 year ago

Thing about the length of Will Smith’s contract is, unless you think he’s going to hit a big wall soon you’d be very happy to have him at 5/100. So 5/100 plus the option to play him for free for three years after that wouldn’t be any worse.

(I’m knocking the total remaining value down to 100 because the net present value isn’t as high as if the contract were paid over five years instead of eight–no idea of the real numbers.)

His biggest issue might be that it’s going to be tough for him to DH on off days.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

I think players where there are potential position changes of various kinds are the hardest to evaluate. Here are some I am thinking about:

Will Smith: I’m not sure I’d put Will Smith in this group or the previous one, but he’s worn down significantly in the last few years in the second half, so when you put this list up at midseason it’s hard to take the production at face value. I’m guessing this is probably related to the grind of catching. So if you trade for him, what are you doing? Playing him 450 PAs a year? The bat is so good, though. Letting him be the secondary catcher and having him DH the rest of the time? How will he adjust to being a DH? Convert him to third base? (or second base, or the outfield?)

Fernando Tatis Jr: He’s playing right field, but they probably would have had him play third if they didn’t already have Machado there. Is it too late to try him there? I bet he could play a great CF too. Those would boost his value a lot.

CJ Abrams: He’s not a shortstop. Can he play the infield? Is he going to be able to handle CF, or are his routes going to be terrible and he’ll have to play in a corner? How do we feel about him as the world’s fastest first baseman?

Shohei Ohtani: He keeps blowing out his arm when he pitches. At what point do we just say, forget it, we’re making him an outfielder? Or if his arm is repaired too many times for that, a first baseman? I’m sure he’d be fine wherever he plays, and he clearly isn’t hurt by DH’ing based on last year…

slz
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I dont see why you cant just throw Tatis back at SS for a few years if you wanted

Part of the deal with Ohtani is he’s the one calling the shots regarding where he plays

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Right, on Ohtani. People talk about him not pitching and playing the field, and while he might eventually do that, but it will be his choice when he does. I don’t think the team has any say really, that was probably written in the contract. He will pitch. I always thought some form of outfield/rp would be his best bet. The thing though, is even he keeps hurting his arm, it hasn’t really hurt his production at the plate. If anything since he started getting hurt his production has gotten better.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah for the trade value series I guess you might want to factor in that it would be easier for Smith to catch some PAs at 1B or DH on literally any other team. Except the Phillies. Or Braves. On almost any other team (Phillies and Braves have DHs on expiring contracts though).

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Regarding Will Smith…wouldn’t it be 1st base? Is there some indication he could play 2nd or 3rd?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  carter

He’s pretty athletic guy and I think they did experiment with him at second and / or third at some point.

But that was a while ago, I have no idea if it would work now (or if it even would have worked then). Lots of questions…

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Didn’t he come up as a 3B?

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago

If that’s the case I think his usage might not be ideal. I realize he can’t DH cuz Ohtani. But if he can play 3rd or 2nd and backup catcher I feel like that would be a more ideal scenario w their roster construction. Keep his bat in the lineup. Lords knows they love to play people out of position anyway.

Honestly I bet if you asked Ohtani to play RF a couple times of week and gave Smith some Dh starts, that would work too. And before people say “that hasn’t been done” well nor has anything else ohtani has done. While ultimately Ohtani likely has the last say on where he plays, I bet he’d jump at this.

Last edited 1 year ago by carter
sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago

He was always a catcher first, but I looked it up to make sure—he played about 80 innings in the minors at second base and about 475 innings at third base. Which is not anywhere near as much as the 1500 innings he played at catcher but it’s enough that we can say it has already crossed their mind.

mercyMember since 2017
1 year ago

Damn I have Merrill and PCA in my top ten. MLB is absolutely loaded with talent.

Jewish PacheMember since 2020
1 year ago

I have a tough time with Greene being ahead of Chourio. Most teams likely have Greene projected somewhere around 4 wins for the next 3 years. Most teams probably have Chourio projected for slightly over 3 wins going forward with larger error bars.

Once Greene hits free agency, Chourio is still controlled for his age 25-29 seasons for 5/98m, with $50m being non guaranteed! With every team being interested in both these guys due to $ and years, the likelihood increases that a team buys into a fundamentally different ceiling for Chourio. As much as I like Greene, I’m not sure that is the case with someone like him and his tighter range of outcomes.

Last edited 1 year ago by Jewish Pache
sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Jewish Pache

I don’t think you have to put Chourio ahead of Greene because Greene is having the better year, but it’s not that much better. They’re both running slightly ahead of their xwOBA, Greene’s been worth 2.7 fWAR and Chourio is at 2.2 fWAR. I think Chourio has played better the last 2-3 weeks and Greene has played worse than they were in April – June, but a ranking like this shouldn’t be that sensitive to a 2-3 week stretch since they were both worth 4 fWAR last year. Chourio chases a lot (35.8%) and is leading Greene this year there but it’s not an emormous difference (32.5% for Greene). ZiPS projects them to be worth 1.4 and 1.5 wins for the remainder of 2025. The difference between them is not as big as it seems.

The other parts of it, as you mention, are the contract, which gives both cost certainty and options that mean Chourio can be controlled for up four (!!!) more years than Greene, so almost no downside if he tails off, and his age. He’s three years younger than Greene, and this at an age where development really matters. Chourio’s at 451 PAs in his age 21 season and is at 2.2 fWAR. In Greene’s age 21 season, he put up 1.0 fWAR in 410 PAs. Greene did do about 2.3 fWAR in his age 22 season, so maybe you can squint and say with the lost development time to the pandemic it’s similar, but even then we’re still talking about the players being at about the same development point.

I think it’s quite debatable whether a 3.6 fWAR player under team control for 7 years is more valuable than a 4.2 fWAR player under team control for 4 years, but almost any meaningful improvement on Chourio’s end is going to put them into roughly the same bucket of production, and he’s only 21.

alexpMember since 2020
1 year ago

I think this is the set of rankings I’m going to disagree with most. I don’t like the length of Will Smith’s deal. Crochet for me, I want to see a longer track record of starting before taking that contract. Let’s see if he can finish this high workload season before I want him this high. And I don’t care if Skubal only has one more year of control, if I’m trying to win, give me Skubal all day.

But my biggest problem is PCA because, as a Braves fan, he looks a whole lot like Michael Harris. Similar walk and strikeout rate, similar defense, PCA does have more power. But there is no way I want to be the team to sign PCA to a contract, and no way do I want to trade what the Cubs would want for him. I think this ranking is the highest risk of looking bad next year, much like the Harris ranking last year.

bigpizzamanMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  alexp

“Similar defense”: PCA looks at least twice as valuable defensively
“PCA does have more power”: This undersells it a bit, no?

alexpMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  bigpizzaman

Fair on defense, I didn’t look at how far apart they were there. Harris is still 93 percentile on Savant, but PCA is top of the scale.

On the power, 18% HR/FB for PCA this year, is he going to sustain that? It’s double his 2024 rate.

Bottom line is PCA is just not the player profile I want to bet on. I would be more than happy to let another team take the risk that the bottom falls out of the bat.

bigpizzamanMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  alexp

Will he hit less than Kevin Kiermaier? I don’t think so. Will he play less than Kiermaier? No, because he doesn’t need to be platooned. Is he worse defensively than Kiermaier? No, he might be better.

Kiermaier put up 4.9 WAR per 650 PAs in his first 5 seasons

John WickMember since 2018
1 year ago
Reply to  alexp

I LOL’d at PCA and Harris looking similar right now.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  alexp

How long of a track record do you need for Crochet? We’re into his 2nd year of being utterly dominant, in an era where outside a few unicorns pitchers don’t really sustain peaks of more than a handful of years.

Joe23
1 year ago

As a Cubs fan, I have been thrilled to watch PCA grow as a hitter and the defense…my God. He’s the best center fielder the Cubs have had in my lifetime (low bar) and I think easily a top-5 overall defender in the league right now. He is also infectious with energy that the team needs, with other guys like Swanson and Happ playing the “quiet leader” role.

All of that said, we’ve seen success like this go south really quickly. Javier Baez is the name that keeps coming to me when I watch PCA swing at everything. When Javy is on, there are few players more exciting. When he’s not, it’s ugly at the plate. I sincerely hope that is not PCA’s path and the defense gives him an extremely high floor, but the amount of chase in his game is concerning.

One more note: if the Guardians were to even consider trading Jose Ramirez at the deadline (and to be clear, they shouldn’t), the Cubs should be on the phone immediately. If they could get Ramirez and a bullpen guy, I’d give up Shaw, Ben Brown, Caissie, and 1-2 lower level guys. Who says no?

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe23

The Guardians. Shaw’s had such a tough year. I think you probably have to throw in Rojas or Horton, and potentially either Alcantara or Triantos (who I think are actually pretty similar in value at this point).

But if we’re talking about Matt Shaw before the season begins, I think you’re in the right area because he looked like a lock to hit.

Chili Davis Eyes
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’d go ahead and do that if I’m the Cubs (which is probably why I had Jose Ramirez in my top ten).

Joe23
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I think a patient approach with Shaw is going to yield a .290-15-80 guy down the line. He reminds me of the best of Jeff Cirillo with more strikeouts. I love the way he is attacking the ball lately and his defense has been far better than advertised. Cleveland has the time to wait for a guy like that; the Cubs don’t.

I’d throw Alcantara into the mix and likely Rojas. The Cubs can’t afford to lose Horton’s innings unless they’re going to go crazy on the trade market.

The other part of this I like for the Cubs is some protection if/when Tucker leaves. Ramirez can be the professional hitter that slots everyone back a bit and protects Busch, PCA, Suzuki, etc., in the lineup.

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe23

Cleveland says no. Remember they’re notoriously difficult to deal with and often have idiosyncratic player valuations. But you’re also talking about trading away the face of the franchise, a guy who is beloved by the fans. That’s going to come at a large premium.

Joe23
1 year ago

@Left of Centerfield: Absolutely correct. There’s no good reason for them to do it. They’re a smart organization and likely won’t trade him. Slotting him into the Cubs’ lineup, however, would make them quite dynamic and hard to pitch around.

Left of Centerfield
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe23

Yeah, I think it’s a unique situation where you’re talking about a city that’s had its heart broken over and over again. Lebron leaving. The Browns leaving. Thome leaving. Lindor being traded. Heck there are still people who are upset about Rocky Colavito being traded away back in 1960.

They finally have someone who wants to be here for his whole career. There’s zero chance of them trading him away. Plus he has a full no-trade clause in his contract.

3cardmontyMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe23

Ramirez has a no-trade and took a steep discount to remain in Cleveland, there’s no reason to think he’s willing to play anywhere else

MikeSMember since 2020
1 year ago

If you’d focus more on the long-term, if you care more about winning in 2028 than 2026, you can move him [Skubal] down incrementally, into the group of great players I’d take Tarik Skubal over.

If I understand this sentence correctly, it says that if you aren’t in “win now” mode then Tarik Skubal is very good, but you’d rather have Tarik Skubal. I both understand this sentiment and find it highly amusing.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  MikeS

Coming to a theater near you, Being Tarik Skubal.

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  MikeS

This is really the thing on Skubal. He’s going to be a guy who drops a ton in next year’s list because 3/4 of his impact and 1/2 his post season will be gone.

If you’re say the Cubs, who are focused on 2025 and 2026, he’s worth a ton. If you’re the Diamondbacks, who are selling and unlikely to be good in 2026, he’s basically a trade chip for a year from now and less useful than someone with years of control.

nad_kratsMember since 2016
1 year ago

Given his youth and rapid scaling of the learning curve, I go the other way with PCA and the chasing. If he has a .350+ xwOBA at 23 despite the 1st percentile chase rate, how good is he going to be if he develops even a little bit of plate discipline?

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  nad_krats

The issue is he has to improve a LOT, this isn’t cutting it from 33% to like 25%, this is cutting 42% to 25% which is probably unheard of (also I assume its hard to change one’s approach when its working so well and the fear would be bad habits forming).

swingofthings
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Ok, but why does he need a rather disciplined 25%? For a guy on track for a 7+ WAR season with an O-swing over 40%, surely we don’t think he has to improve all the way to a number significantly better than the league average chase rate?

nad_kratsMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

As SOT stated, he doesn’t even have to get his chase to league average; if he’s merely bottom quartile instead of bottom 1% he’s an easy 8-win player (which incidentally is what he’s on pace for this year with that 44% chase). Meanwhile league average likely pushes him into double digits!

This makes him one of the only guys on this list with a conceivable path to real improvement, and given his already sky-high projections, I’d argue that he’s being undervalued here.

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  nad_krats

We are probably at a 99th percentile outcome for PCA this year. Guys who swing at everything and don’t walk haven’t been able to sustain success that we’ve been seeing from PCA over a long period of time. This year his glove and SLG are doing a lot of work, he’s not really getting on base, so if the power evaporates or the strike outs tick up or 10 of those fly balls become outs instead of homers, he’s no longer any where close to an 8 win player.

I guess what I’m saying is that he’s probably not the next Mike Trout which it seems like a few here think he could get to.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  nad_krats

And don’t players typically get a little more selective as they age? (Or am I remembering that wrong?)

RobertMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  nad_krats

Chase rate is quite sticky, quite early in a career.

slz
1 year ago

I dont really have much to add to this one. All the names are right, I would reshuffle the order some, but that’s about it

Like, I agree, the PCA concerns should keep him out of the Top 10 until he proves he really is what he appears to be. It’s not just the chase. He’s just past the Max EV threshold of a guy capable of big seasons offensively and the guys who buck that either have a full profile otherwise (he obviously does not) or are bat control types, which he isn’t either.

I’d probably still have him above Julio and his frankenstein contract, especially since while I would factor in pulling him out of T-Mobile I also imagine it would take around half a season to detox him from it so that lessens some immediate value, but…theyre right next to each other. It’s not really worth getting worked up over.

Same with the Pitchers. I’d rather have the control of Crochet with the deal already signed than having to extend Skubal but in a vacuum I think I’d rather have Skubal straight up. Nothing is outrageous here.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

Sure, how long did it take Beltre and Teoscar to “detox,” haha?

nathanjMember since 2024
1 year ago

Each year, I find this list rather bizarre. I always thought Freddy Peralta’s contract was waaay over water for years and lived out that way. I’m confused as to the likes of Will Smith being in the top 20. He seems properly compensated with risks of a catcher just falling off a cliff. O’Neil Cruz and Jackson Chourio being that low is just bizarre to me. I can’t imagine the Pirates trade Cruz for 80% of the top 50 players.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  nathanj

By WAR, Cruz is good, not great, he’s 26, and he’s arb eligible for the next three years. A very nice player to have but nothing incredible. What am I missing?

darren
1 year ago

At the risk of stating the obvious: These lists must be really hard to make. Injury risks, team control, complicated options, pitchers amirite, PED suspensions, age, $$$, industry opinions, personal opinions… Yikes.

With all that to consider, I feel like you nailed Crochet’s placement here. He’s young and he’s dominating while leading the league in IP. For that type of pitcher, he’s on an awesome deal. But your writeup does a great job of balancing that against the risks he still faces. Great work IMHO.

Ryan
1 year ago

PCA at 13 is wild. Better projections, way cheaper, and probably (?) a higher floor than Julio, somehow Julio comes out ahead? PCA is a top 3 trade value in baseball

Last edited 1 year ago by Ryan
bigpizzamanMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

I don’t think he’s top 3, but I think it’s a no brainer that he should be ahead of JRod

Darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

I think the uniqueness of PCA’s profile, particularly since there’s a short track record of success, gives good reason for teams to think it is high-risk at this time. He has a .305 OBP, and is projected to be around that mark the rest of the season (although ZiPS thinks he’ll jump up to .312 next season)

Going back to 2022, no batter has finished Top 20 in WAR in the season with a sub-.310 OBP. Only two guys have done it with a sub-.320 OBP — Cal Raleigh in 2024 (13th, .312) and Robert in 2023 (19th, .315). It’s safe to say that PCA will do that this year (he’s 3rd in WAR among position players), but it’s very hard to consistently be one of the best position players in baseball if you don’t get on base at a high (or at least reasonable) clip.

That being said, PCA’s defense and power provide him a pretty strong cushion to remain valuable going forward, but I certainly understand the downside risk.

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Darren

Honestly I agree that having him behind Julio is weird. Julio is showing the downside of a PCAesque profile (with worse defense). Julio has shown the downside two years in a row. I don’t get why the downside would have a higher ranking then someone who hasn’t shown the downside (yet).

RobertMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  carter

Because the way Julio gets to his offense is more sustainable historically

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Robert

I don’t care how a player gets his results. I care about the results and nothing else. As a 50+ year member of the PGA I look at Scottie Scheffler, who does almost nothing that fits any template for what a golf swing is supposed to look like and is, head and shoulders, the best player in the world. So and so has incredible bat speed, but he never makes contact, such and such throws 100+, but it is straight as a string, ying and yang can run like the wind, but he can’t steal 1st. Christopher Sanchez was never seen as a top prospect but is developing rapidly into one of the best pitchers in the game. There was a song written in 1939 that is one of top hits of all time. “Taint what you do (it’s the way that you do it)” that describes too much of the modern world in general and it pertains to baseball as well. Every individual is just that, an individual, and must be judged on his merits.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I mean this line of thought goes against the most basic principles of this website and baseball analysis in general, which is that unsustainable results can and often do happen in small sample sizes, and that regression to the mean with unsustainable results is pretty easy to predict

Mike ZMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

No mention of how PCA was essentially this good the last two months of 2024 and carried it over to 2025. He has 7.5 WAR over the last calendar year. Seems odd he’s not being ranked based on far superior performance to Merrill, Rodriguez, etc. A lot of discussion of floor but what if the 23 yr old continues getting better on his clear areas for improvement (vs LH, chase, stronger ).

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Z

Merrill and Rodriguez are under control for their entire 20s at reasonable rates.

sandwiches4everMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Mike Z

Maybe he gains some strength, but there’s just not a lot of history of players with this level of chase having much success of reining that in, and the history of LHHs meaningfully improving against LHP is mixed at best.

Don’t underestimate the value of the contract-in-hand for J-Rod/Merrill.

Logan DavisMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  Ryan

What do you mean, PCA has a higher floor than Julio? We just saw PCA’s “floor” last season and it was 1.5 WAR worse than any season Julio has ever had. I feel like there’s some pretty serious recency bias with PCA.

PCA’s “floor” is his chase rate gets exposed and he starts striking out 30% of the time again. He turns back into an 85 wRC+ guy. Or he gets hurt.

And Julio and Merrill’s contracts are a plus, IMO. They aren’t overpaid at all, and you control them for much longer.

Top 3? C’mon now, no way. You want him over Ohtani, who pays for himself just in ad deals before he even steps on the field? Over Bobby Witt? Skenes? Judge? No. PCA is great but he seems correctly rated to me.

Last edited 1 year ago by Logan Davis
carterMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Logan Davis

I don’t know where you got 1.5 war. He put up 2.6 in 3/4 a season. So still over 3war.

Further I don’t think rookie seasons should be used for “floor”. It’s just an entirely new game, and he crushed at end of season. Its like saying Trouts floor after his rookie year or w.e

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  carter

Everyone’s floor is getting hurt and missing the whole season. So yeh I agree that what PCA, or anyone did in the majors at 22 isn’t a floor. His floor is GG defense, elite speed, 80 wRC+. What’s that, about 3.5 WAR?

darren
1 year ago

In the comments of the other articles, there was discussion of the very different wide of outcomes for young players. I wonder what kind of error bars we should be applying to ZIPS projections for PCA and Merrill. Over the next five years, would it be something like:

Merrill 12 – 25 WAR
PCA 21 – 33 WAR

At that projection, I’m no longer as excited about having Merrill for a decade. That’s a good player for a good value but not all that exciting. I guess there are reasons to believe his projection may be selling him a bit short though.

For PCA, even at the low end, he looks incredibly valuable. I guess I would bump him up a bit.

Last edited 1 year ago by darren
slz
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I think there is some stickyness of last year for Merrill (and for PCA to a lesser extent) going on. The more I have looked into both players the less of a case I can find for him

He doesnt hit the ball that hard, he’s looking less like a special fielder (at least in comparison) and there just isnt enough in the rest of the profile. He’s more complete and safe compared to PCA but not really in general

I do think 12 is a pretty low end bar there. He’s 22, the xstats still think he’s hitting as well as last year and he’s gonna cruise to 3+ WAR as long as the concussion doesnt ruin his season

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  slz

I didn’t mean that in the context of comparing them so much, just in when we’re evaluating them in general. I think you’re right, though.

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

PCA’s floor is because of his elite glove which teams don’t typically pay for — so he might rack up great defensive numbers, but if he’s hitting .220/.260/.340 people will be calling to bench him.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

Will they? Don’t people have a pretty good understanding that defense has value?

It seems like teams were willing to stick with Kiermaier when he was putting up similar numbers.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

“Teams” = Tampa, who had him on the cheap and platooned him heavilyz

darren
1 year ago

Fair point. Do you think most teams would bench him if he was still a good overall player?

Veeck as in BeckMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

He hit worse than that last year in the first half (.203/.253/.329) and was playable (and emerging as a fan favorite).

My teenagers were in on PCA early. I had to explain to them that “If that young exciting player can ever fix their colossally embarrassing weakness they would be a superstar!” is always, always, always a let down. And now PCA deserves to (and barring injury, I think will) win MVP.

carterMember since 2020
1 year ago

Despite not necessarily earning it per se, I still think they give it to Ohtani

Last edited 1 year ago by carter
ShauncoreMember since 2019
1 year ago

Greene is one of those guys who I just can’t seem to square the surface stats with underlying stats with the visual play together.

I know he’s now got a 131 wRC+ over his last ~1,300 PA but the strikeouts, whiffs, and chase, and walk rates scare me and it doesn’t come with particularly good defense at a non-premium position (and also doesn’t add any base running value either). It’s a pretty violent and steep swing as well, highest swing path tilt in the league, though he does have some of the best bat speed.

I just feel like…it’s ripe to fall apart at some point. I’m probably going to be wrong but to me, it’s a very delicate profile and his value is all offense and age.

ShauncoreMember since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  Shauncore

Also when I saw Logan Webb’s age (28) and his draft year (2014!) it made my head hurt a bit. That’s Carlos Rodon’s and Kyle Schwarber’s draft class. Brady Aiken went 1st overall that year!

OtterMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Shauncore

He really is the prime “he can’t keep getting away with this” guy in the majors but he keeps getting away with it. At some point the BABIP gods will probably have their revenge and it’s gonna be rough, but maybe he runs crazy BABIPs for a few more years and we all continue look dumb.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Otter

I would point out that this is the first year Statcast thinks he’s getting “lucky,” average-wise.

He hits the ball really hard to every field…and never hits pop flies.

goatMember since 2026
1 year ago

I’ve been reading this series since its inception and never has it felt less relevant. Teams do not care about “trade value” for most of the guys on this list because none of them will ever be traded.

jreyn24Member since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  goat

Do you read this series to gauge what will happen in the trade market? I think the rest of us just view it as a very entertaining thought exercise

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  goat

It is honestly shocking to me that someone could read this regularly for years and still not understand that the point of this is not related to actual potential trades, but rather the deadline is used as a hook (and it comes out the week before when there usually isn’t a lot of actual trades to talk about).

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  goat

I mean if you want to read a list that doesn’t include the best players in the sport because they’re unlikely to be traded, enjoy ranking the merits of Vinnie Pasquantino vs Zach Eflin

cwood41
1 year ago

Man i really think Julio is just too high. He’s a barely above average hitter with 170M left on his contract. I don’t think anyone in baseball would decline if offered PCA for him straight up. I get the T-mobile park effect, but WRC+ and OPS+ all account for that. And they have him barely above average.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  cwood41

wRC+ and OPS+ are fantastic tools that do not account for how individual hitters are impacted by individual parks.

Isaac Paredes’ batted ball quality didn’t change after either trade – he was just hitting them in Wrigley rather than the Trop or Minute Maid.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  cwood41

He’s barely above average this year. He’s got a 126 wRC+ for his career.

Logan DavisMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  cwood41

I feel the opposite way, I think almost every team would take Julio over PCA today. If they keep playing at their current levels for another year, then I might agree with you. But Julio has a much longer track record — his rookie year looked a lot like what PCA is doing now. And that contract is not a problem at all for 25/30 teams. I think it’s actually a plus to have his whole career locked up, whereas PCA might leave you in free agency when he’s 28.

Count me also as a believer, like Ben, that the T-Mobile Park effect is bigger than measured. Julio is a career 130 wRC+ guy on the road and he has been this year too.

Last edited 1 year ago by Logan Davis
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Logan Davis

Even ignoring the park effect issue, he’s going to end up around 4 WAR this year. He’s 24. He’s a great player.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

I think the point though is that a 4 win player is not a great player, it’s a good one. I think his placement here is justified because having a good player this young under control for so long is insanely valuable, but this is now the 3rd year in a row where his offensive numbers have declined. That’s a large enough sample where I’m more comfortable calling him more of a nice building block than a star

goatMember since 2026
1 year ago

Where is Eric Lauer on this list?

robgMember since 2017
1 year ago
Reply to  goat

top 10 comes out tomorrow

JI98Member since 2021
1 year ago

So this year’s top 10, ranked in order of their placement on last year’s list, will be:

Gunnar
Witt
Skenes
EDLC
Ohtani
Acuña
Carroll
Judge
Wood
Raleigh

I’m personally guessing that either Raleigh or Skenes tops the list

FrodoBeck
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

My guess is Wood, edging out Skenes because of hitter vs pitcher risk.

Pirates HurdlesMember since 2024
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

I agree that Skenes would be the #1 pitcher, but I can’t see putting him ahead of several of these bats. He just cant have the same impact and then there is the obvious pitcher risk thing.

JI98Member since 2021
1 year ago

Skenes was already #3 last year, and the stock of the 2 guys above him are down while his own is up. That’s my reasoning. I could entertain an argument for Wood above him too, but I’m not placing him any lower on the list.

formerly matt wMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

I think it’s Witt (or Raleigh). Witt hasn’t repeated last year but that was never likely, he’s got more team control than Skenes, and he’s not a pitcher. There’s downside risk to his contract if he craters but he’d have to.

The thing that would reduce Skenes’s value since last year is picking up a full year of service for winning Rookie of the Year.

goatMember since 2026
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

Addison Barger should be on here somewhere.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

I’m feeling pretty confident in Witt at #1 on my own personal rankings and Skenes at #2, but I suppose Raleigh could be on there in the same way that Witt was last year (signed long extension and is now among the Top 3 players this year). The catcher thing would worry me and it seems to worry Ben too.

The dark horse at #1 is Ohtani, because he makes the team a lot of money. But I would still take Witt and Skenes.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

Yeah to me, I see Witt as the clear-cut #1. Best combo of upside, youth, contract, etc

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

I have a hard time seeing how anyone could be down on Witt relative to last year.

I’m assuming that Ben did most of the finalizing of this list over a week ago, so let’s compare:
Last year, Bobby Witt had 5.6 fWAR through July 15.
This year he had 4.7 over the same stretch.

Okay, sure, he is now “only” on pace for a 7+ fWAR season after having a 10.5 fWAR season last year. This feels like a real bit of recency bias, saying that his 7+ fWAR season is somehow evidence that he has “slipped” when he is very likely one of the Top 5 performers among MLB this season and absolutely one of the Top 7. And all of this is happening while he’s underperforming his xwOBA by 30 points. This is your guy who will be everyone’s preseason pick for AL MVP for the next five years.

He’s under team control for those next five years, through age 30, the annual salaries are not crazy. And sure he probably opts out of his $35M per year deal after 2030 and signs an A-Rod level contract but you’re already so far ahead at that point. Who would you rather have?

Cal Raleigh, who is several years older, a catcher (so more wear and tear), and who is owed only something like $102M instead of $137M for Witt?

Ohtani, whose contract structure is super complicated?

Judge, who is obviously amazing but who is 33 and owed $200M over the next five years, plus another $40M in 2031 when he likely won’t be worth the deal?

Skenes? He’s a free agent a year earlier than Witt, but he’s much cheaper. He’s also a pitcher, so injury risk is higher.

EDLC? He’s good, but he is no Bobby Witt. James Wood? I like him a lot, he could be as high as #3 for me and could easily be #1 next year, but he’s definitely not as good right now.

JI98Member since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I’m lower on Witt than most. That’s because
A) I think his true talent level offensively is closer to what he’s shown this season and in 2023 than last year
B) His value, like that of every other shortstop in the league, is being artificially inflated by fWAR due to the extremely outdated positional adjustments
and most importantly C) the opt outs on his deal significantly cap the potential upside to his team relative to most other long term early career extensions do

I really have no clue what to make of Ohtani’s trade value. I do think that the fact that he’s going to be owed $68 mil/year payouts well into the 2040s is going to be disqualifying to a lot more teams than you’d think. How much does his status as a living, breathing money printer who also happens to be the most talented baseball player possibly of all time counteract that? I honestly can’t tell

billybonds
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

I think it’s going Skenes 1, Gunnar 2, EDLC 3, Carroll 4, Cal 5. Witt, Judge, and Ohtani make too much. Acuna slightly too little team control. Wood too unproven.

FrodoBeck
1 year ago
Reply to  billybonds

Wood being unproven is a bit of a take

Premier prospect history, nearly 800 PA of 134 wRC+ performance, top tier batted ball metrics, elite plate discipline. He’s going to be top 5, probably top 3. Don’t see how he ends up behind Elly or Henderson, tbh

jreyn24Member since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

Would think Carroll jumps several places at least. This time last year he was ranked 147th in position player WAR on the year and had questions about the health of his shoulder. Now he’s back to absolutely raking and getting him at $14M AAV for the entirety of his 20’s is gold.

JI98Member since 2021
1 year ago
Reply to  jreyn24

Carroll is great but the fact that he went an entire calendar year stretch (mid 2023 – mid 2024) being basically a replacement level player would give teams pause, I think. He’ll probably land in the 5-7 range IMO

Last edited 1 year ago by JI98
TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

I’d put Carroll #1. He now has a pretty good track record of elite performance and is on a long, very team-friendly contract. I guess his size is a slight red flag but it’s easier to pick nits with literally anyone else.

I had 8/10 in my top 10; I didn’t have Judge or Ohtani, though especially with Ohtani he was lingering and could have been #11 which is about where I’d put him. I’d probably have Judge more in the 15-20 range.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  JI98

A pitcher and a not super young catcher being 1-2 would be fun and wonky given the inherent risk of both those profiles

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

Skenes is the #2 pitcher in baseball, so that makes sense with his low cost and team control but Cal at #1 would be crazy. He was in my top 10 but a late-20s catcher simply can’t be #1

Last edited 1 year ago by TKDC
B3malMember since 2025
1 year ago

I’m going to preface this with the fact that I am a Red Sox homer, but I struggle to understand why the consensus on Ceddanne and PCA are so different. PCA is the better hitter but they have the exact same massive concern about chasing. They are 1a and 1b as far as defense goes. They are both plus runners. Ceddanne has an unbelievably team friendly deal. The ceiling may be higher for PCA but they have the exact same bust potential in my mind.

Cool Lester SmoothMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  B3mal

PCA is also the better fielder…and he’s a far better baserunner…and the hitting isn’t close…and he’s younger.

darren
1 year ago

Other than that, though…

B3malMember since 2025
1 year ago

Same drs and one less OAA in 80 less innings. Both were scouted as potential 80 grade fielders. There is no significant difference in their defense. PCA has more power but their plate discipline is pretty much identical. I see no difference in the risk of their OBP bottoming out and both being a well below average hitter.

I’m not saying that I prefer Ceddanne. Like you said, PCA is younger and better on the base paths. PCA has more upside with the bat. However, his plate discipline is just as bad as Ceddanne and I don’t see how their downside is all that different. They both are potentially glove only players. A lot of people in the comments have PCA as a top ten guy and Ceddanne as a borderline on the list guy. I’ll give people that PCA has the higher upside but there is 0 difference in their downsides in my opinion.

Brock244
1 year ago

PCA is better, but I wouldn’t say he is a better fielder.

Both have been ~+15 OAA in CF and were scouted as 70-80 grade defenders

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago

As B3mal accurately says the two are 1a and 1b as far as defense. Rafaela, as Ben said in his comment, is right there in the discussion of the best defensive player in baseball. Baserunning, while of value, pales in importance with hitting and defense. The age difference is a barely significant one year. At this point PCA is the better player but the gap is far smaller than you are implying.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  B3mal

I love Rafaela too, but PCA has been a lot better.

PCA 138 wRC+, 5.4 WAR
Rafaela 111 wRC+, 3.2 WAR

B3malMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

And PCA has also chased more and makes less contact. They carry the same risk of not hitting enough to get to their power and not getting on base enough for their speed to matter. It is just as likely that PCA’s offense craters due to poor discipline as it is that Rafaela’s does.

Again the point isn’t that Rafaela should be higher than PCA. It is that they should be looked at similarly. If you think PCA is a top 10 guy then I can’t see how Rafaela isn’t top 30. If you don’t think Rafaela belongs on the list then I don’t see how you could consider PCA to be in the top 30.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  B3mal

I see your point, I just feel like both guys are probably paying near their peak abilities and one is way better than the other. PCA could drop off a lot and still be as good as Rafaela is now.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  B3mal

It’s mostly the power. It’s really hard to fake 27 home runs at this point in the season in a park known for suppressing offense and homers.

I have to admit, I don’t think this is going to continue. He doesn’t hit the ball that hard, it’s just that his launch angle is so high than when he does hit the ball hard it’s basically always a barrel. Can he keep that up? Probably not to this level.

But I also thought Rafaela should have been 25 spots higher.

warpath
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

For me I think it’s simply that we’re only 2 months removed from considering if Rafaela’s extension will end up being a miscalculation. The track record of him hitting at an above-average level in the big leagues is really, really short, shorter than maybe everybody on this list except for Masyn Winn and Roman Anthony.

It’s been an exciting 2 months of hitting for Ceddanne, no doubt, and some of the underlying metrics are really encouraging. If he puts up 200-300 more PA of similar performance, I think I’m a believer and he vaults maybe to 20 on this list for me. But I’m not there yet.

B3malMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  warpath

Another 200-300 PA of what he has been the last two months or 200-300 PA of above average hitting? I doubt Ceddanne will ever be a 120 true talent wRC+ type of guy but if he can be a 90-100 wRC+ type of guy then he is a 3 to 4 win player being paid an average annual value of 6.25 million through 2031 plus a team option.

B3malMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  sadtrombone

I pretty much agree with this. I have no problem with PCA being this high because he could be Andruw Jones for the next few years. My whole point is that if you value PCA this highly then you should value Ceddanne highly because he is PCA light signed for 50 million through 2031.

Also if PCA’s power is real then he is going to get paid a lot in arbitration and will deserve it, and Ceddanne will still be paid the same as the last guy in your bullpen.

Dmjn53
1 year ago
Reply to  B3mal

Well there’s not too much separating them besides the fact that PCA is the better hitter, fielder, baserunner, and is significantly younger

B3malMember since 2025
1 year ago
Reply to  Dmjn53

PCA is 18 months younger. We aren’t talking about a 30 year old and 22 year old here. I’ll give you that PCA is a better baserunner but the difference between an elite baserunner and a good baserunner isn’t that much.

The difference in defensive ability is negligible. There is nothing wrong with thinking PCA is better but you wouldn’t be wrong if you said you thought Ceddanne was better. The only way to be wrong is if you act like there is a big difference between their respective defensive capabilities.

My point about the hitting is that although PCA is better, he is just as likely to crash out and be worthless offensively as Ceddanne is because his plate discipline is as bad as Ceddanne. PCA has the highest chase rate in the majors.

Would I trade Ceddanne straight up for PCA? Of course. But if I was in a front office I would be just as afraid of PCA’s plate discipline as I am of Ceddanne’s.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago

All my top 10 guys were in the top 20, and most are in the top 10, so I can’t disagree too much with this list. I think Adley and Yordan were bad misses and Westburg and Yamamoto were significant misses. I’d have had Neto and Baldwin higher and probably at least a couple of the “stars on big deals” in the list, but overall I think this list is good and I mostly just like to talk about where I disagree but thought I should state for the record that this is obviously very seriously done and is appreciated.

billybonds
1 year ago
Reply to  TKDC

Chourio didn’t crack your top 10?

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  billybonds

No, but he’s probably the most likely to have been there if I did it myself instead of using the tool.

drplantwrenchMember since 2024
1 year ago

maybe im just a hater but julio rodriguez this far up is heresy

Brock244
1 year ago

Im interested how front offices would value Skubal vs Crochet vs Brown/Miz because they all offer different types of value

Skubal is by far the best pitcher, but he’s also like buying a new car. The second you pay for him, he loses value due to the lack of control. Skubal with 1 year of control is dramatically less valuable than 1.5

With Brown/Miz you are getting really good pitchers on the league min salary with a bunch of control. Not as good as Skubal but they offer more surplus value

Crochet is kind of a mix of both… He’s better than Brown/Miz but not quite Skubal. Has much more control than SKubal but not quite Brown/Miz. “If you want to hug an ace he’s your guy” is a great way of putting it.

tdmocMember since 2023
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

I can’t get over the fact that they get to have Crochet for so many years and they even have an injury clause that adds a $15M club option and voids the player option.

Could he get hurt? Could this deal sting? Sure. But Crochet could also be the bedrock of your franchise for a half-decade to come.

This is something that came up on a BP podcast: the fact that the Red Sox have paid for the privilege of finding out if Crochet is an ultra elite starting pitcher. They’ve tapped into an opportunity for upside that other teams passed on.

If this guy looks even a little like 2024-2025 over the balance of his contract, that’s a huge huge win.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  tdmoc

To be fair, that’s not a whole lot of protection. It’s just that one year.

Brock244
1 year ago
Reply to  darren

It’s quite a bit protection bc if you have TJ, you’re missing 1.5 years. The voided player option + club option essentially adds 2 years to the deal, so if he gets hurt you are essentially just trading now production for future production and crochet is young enough that those years are early 30s

Certainly, it doesn’t help if he’s no longer good, but it protects against the scenario where he get hurt and misses1-2 years, the comes back looking great, then leaves in FA

Last edited 1 year ago by Brock244
darren
1 year ago
Reply to  Brock244

Maybe you’re right. I’m probably just jaded because of how poorly other clauses like this have turned out for the Red Sox. Jon Lackey comes to mind.

bookbookMember since 2024
1 year ago

I’m surprised there isn’t more discussion of the Julio ranking. (Which I think is a touch high, but pretty reasonable.)
I’m even more surprised that Seattle hasn’t found a way to help this phenomenally talented person find a way to elevate the ball with some consistency (and chase less). Seattle fans are nuts to criticize him so much, but it is tantalizing and frustrating to watch him not quite shine.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  bookbook

It seems like dumping on the Julio ranking is one of the most popular types of comments here.

I’m with you that he’s great and taking way too much heat. In another thread, another Darren was trying to temper my excitement for Roman Anthony (never!) by suggesting he might turn out like Julio Rodriguez. Yes, please, I say.

vbjd1111Member since 2019
1 year ago
Reply to  bookbook

I do not profess to have any insight into Seattle’s coaching of Julio. But in general, IMO, execution is as important as coaching. A player can be coached as to how to achieve an outcome and either be resistant or simply fail to execute. I don’t know what is the reason with Julio but laying it at the coaching staff’s feet because Julio is “phenomenally talented” assumes quite a bit.

Ivan_GrushenkoMember since 2016
1 year ago

It looks like the exercise is how good the player package would have to be to acquire the guy in question. I assume it’s the amount the second highest bidder would pay.

Another way of thinking about it would be to include the salary relief. If the Mets traded Juan Soto for nothing, they’d get $740 million of salary relief. That’s a top 10 value, no?

bosoxforlifeMember since 2016
1 year ago

It appears to me that many of the comments are not placing enough emphasis on the importance of the contract status when evaluating value. I think a reasonable definition, in this situation, would be getting the most production for the least amount of money and in this context both cost and time of control are of paramount importance. In baseball it isn’t quite that simple because of other variables. For example a team that has a real chance this year would value Zach Wheeler far more highly than a team that is years away from contending. Duh, as if anyone needed that explained but I see this exercise in a much longer context which is why I want to get Christopher Sanchez, Ceddanne Rafaela and more players under long term, team friendly, deals under contract. Young players who are not signed to such a deal are going to become expensive, and in some cases very expensive or move on, and the risk in this type of young player lowers their value considerably.

darren
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

I think it’s a case where the pendulum has swung too far back in favor of great players over great contracts. I believe that Clemens in particular has moved further in this direction than I would agree with.

sadtromboneMember since 2020
1 year ago
Reply to  bosoxforlife

You’re not wrong but the value of WAR is typically not linear for contenders. Contenders often have 2 win players throughout the daily lineup, so getting two 3-win players only upgrades the lineup by 2 WAR. A 6 win players—nominally the same amount of WAR—would upgrade the team by 4 WAR. You would be willing to pay a lot more in dollars and prospects for that.

But as I noted yesterday, the real sweet spot is signing a player to a long extension and *then* they make the leap.

sa1251Member since 2020
1 year ago

Will be interesting to see if Spencer Jones cracks the top 5. I see him more in the 7-9 range.

Theodore Merwin
1 year ago

You lost me with this one. You’re telling me as a rival GM you’d trade 3+ years of a cheap cost controlled asset like half of the players on this list for one year of Skubal? I can see him in the 30s or 40s given it’s only 1+ year.

mercyMember since 2017
1 year ago

1+ year, 2 potential playoff runs.

dangledangleMember since 2024
1 year ago

I’m just lower on guys on their early to mid 30s on decently sized deals. Much higher on young players who look just as good at a lower dollar figure and without the sunk costs of the end of their contracts. I wish i wasn’t but that’s what valued the most in baseball is young cost controlled talent.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  dangledangle

Yeah, I think most GMs are too. I think there is a psychological thing going on where it is hard to separate baseball value from economic/trade value once you’ve decided a player is surplus. Jackson Merrill would get more than Aaron Judge in return, and there is no evidence from the past to suggest otherwise.

Adam SMember since 2016
1 year ago

I know trade value isn’t quite a heads up thing but.

I’ve been a Cubs fan for 50 years and a Mariners fan for 30. Owned season tickets for both teams. I feel like I have a good sense of those teams and they’re players.

PR disaster aside, as a Mariners fan if I could trade Julio Rodriguez for PCA, I’d make that trade right now as well as in the off-season. As a Cubs fan, I’d politely say no to giving up PCA for J-Rod and that massive contract, bargain it is.

PCA is younger, cheaper, and better. For sure on the first two, though I expect you aren’t sold on the third.

TKDCMember since 2016
1 year ago
Reply to  Adam S

I actually think you are right, but they’re right next to each other. I’d probably put them further apart but shouldn’t there be a claim here? I think PCA is a fringe top-10 guy, too.

NATS FanMember since 2018
1 year ago

PCA is very much like Andrew jones to me. But healthier. Andrew Jones was underrated in his time because of the Ks. But he was so good defensively and combined that with significant power, that some rightly argue for him to be in the hall of fame. Even though he got bad very bad near the end cause of injuries. If PCA continues to be Adrew Jones but avoids the injuries he will be a hall of fame player easy. He deserves a top 5 ranking. You’re overvaluing the chase rate and undervaluing that glove and power.

cubsker
1 year ago

I can’t imagine wanting Merrill or Julio over PCA. I don’t even think it’s close.

sourbob
1 year ago

I’m going to go ahead and put this PCA evaluation into a folder I keep called, “OK, Pal, Let’s See How That Goes for Ya.”

gr44
1 year ago

Focusing on a particular metric, like chase rate, sticky as it may be, may have caused Hoyer to lowball the offer to PCA once already. What does every team want at the deadline? Impact. PCA’s upside was undersold and now one of the game’s top values is going to be difficult to sign to a Jackson Merrill type deal.

Hoyer said on a broadcast a few weeks ago, that athleticism is what you would bet on to over perform the models. PCA’s athleticism (and work ethic, coachability) is what has allowed him to improve his power numbers. Obsessive tee work training reps to catch the ball out front and get to his pull side power. His athleticism, his highly loose and whippy swing do the rest. We don’t have a readily available metric for bat head acceleration at impact, only speed, and of course it’s F=MA. I’d postulate that PCA’s ability to impact the baseball without needing to swing at 100% is what will allow him to post positive offensive production while having what looks like an untenable flaw in his approach. The value of catching the ball out front, for him, outweighs the negative of starting the swing too early (and chasing).

I see a lot of Javy comparisons, but I don’t think it’s apt. Javy has similar athleticism, but less looseness through the wrists in his swing, allowing less adjustment to breaking balls. Javy’s career WRC+ against the slider is 87, while PCA’s has improved from awful his rookie year to 110 this year. If his chase rate is so exploitable, why haven’t pitchers figured out how to do it yet?